Let's Get Political!

[dalumpimunki]

Fuck sake, I’m not saying nobody died of Covid, I’m saying the line pushed that vaccination prevents transmission is a total crock.

That's a total straw man argument though. It was clear from very early on that was the case. Stopping infection isn't the purpose of the vaccination programme. Stopping hundreds of thousands dying is. Locally we've seen our death rates fall from scores a day to a handful a week.

Excess deaths are still so high because the NHS is FUCKED. Fifteen years of underfunding and a dozen of utter neglect has left it on its knees and we're basically failing to treat thousands of people in a timely manner, or sometimes at all. It's not directly related to covid, it's a consequence of the service being already run down and waiting lists growing then the service having its legs kicked out from under it by the pandemic.

To be fair, you caught my reaction to both your post and Adj's suggestion that lockdown was unnecessary. But your similar wilful ignoring of all scientific evidence in relation to climate change pushed me over the edge.

People that believe these conspiracy based challenges to both covid lockdown and climate change science seem prepared to swallow the idea of hugely unlikely and complicated plots involving the cooperation of people with no shared interests for reasons that are never very clear, other than some vague idea of "control". Like the loons that were convinced covid shots were tracking bugs but happily carried their smartphones around with them everywhere little of it makes sense.

[adje]

That's a total straw man argument though. It was clear from very early on that was the case. Stopping infection isn't the purpose of the vaccination programme. Stopping hundreds of thousands dying is. Locally we've seen our death rates fall from scores a day to a handful a week.

Excess deaths are still so high because the NHS is FUCKED. Fifteen years of underfunding and a dozen of utter neglect has left it on its knees and we're basically failing to treat thousands of people in a timely manner, or sometimes at all. It's not directly related to covid, it's a consequence of the service being already run down and waiting lists growing then the service having its legs kicked out from under it by the pandemic.

To be fair, you caught my reaction to both your post and Adj's suggestion that lockdown was unnecessary. But your similar wilful ignoring of all scientific evidence in relation to climate change pushed me over the edge.

People that believe these conspiracy based challenges to both covid lockdown and climate change science seem prepared to swallow the idea of hugely unlikely and complicated plots involving the cooperation of people with no shared interests for reasons that are never very clear, other than some vague idea of "control". Like the loons that were convinced covid shots were tracking bugs but happily carried their smartphones around with them everywhere little of it makes sense.

Hang on, my comment wasn't based on any so called "conspiracy theory" but solely on the evidence that the Party who introduced these measures thought them so ineffective that they regularly flouted them from Johnson through Cummings and Hancock etc right down to the party minions in that video.
To be fair, I think that's a legitimate conclusion to draw. "Tracking bugs" in a jab is a whole different level

[horlock07]

Hang on, my comment wasn't based on any so called "conspiracy theory" but solely on the evidence that the Party who introduced these measures thought them so ineffective that they regularly flouted them from Johnson through Cummings and Hancock etc right down to the party minions in that video.
To be fair, I think that's a legitimate conclusion to draw. "Tracking bugs" in a jab is a whole different level

I suspect, from evidence elsewhere, its more a case of the Party who introduced these measures thought they did not apply to them, only us plebs.

[horlock07]

Oh dear https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65952298

I am not sure what is worse, the breaking of the rules or how fucking dreadful it looks like the party was  !

[adje]

I suspect, from evidence elsewhere, its more a case of the Party who introduced these measures thought they did not apply to them, only us plebs.

Which is kind of my point. Don't think they'd have flouted them so regularly if they thought they were effective

[The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey]

If anybody wants to believe anything that comes out of the most corrupt, deceitful and dishonest government and their paid cronies that’s up to them.

[horlock07]

Which is kind of my point. Don't think they'd have flouted them so regularly if they thought they were effective

Not so sure considering seat belts are proven to be pretty effective but ministers (and ex prime ministers) seem to be being photographed without them on on a pretty regular basis.

[dalumpimunki]

Hang on, my comment wasn't based on any so called "conspiracy theory" but solely on the evidence that the Party who introduced these measures thought them so ineffective that they regularly flouted them from Johnson through Cummings and Hancock etc right down to the party minions in that video.
To be fair, I think that's a legitimate conclusion to draw. "Tracking bugs" in a jab is a whole different level

So what purpose do you think lock down was imposed for? Imposed by the party of the wealthy, representatives of industry and business who were screwed by it. All that cabinets instincts were against it. They imposed it way too late, but we're clearly shitting themselves about the consequences of not following clinical advice with thousands dying. What a "compliance exercise" is I'm not sure even you know?

And Adj they were effective you twat. It worked because, thank Christ, most of the population were more responsible than these arseholes. I sat in meetings daily looking at the new infection figures for 18 months and the differences before, during and after lock downs were marked. The summer of Rishis "Eat out to spread it all about" was a fucking disaster that I hope the enquiry makes clear.

Those in high places that broke the rules did it because they knew that as long as the masses complied then the spread would slow. Most of them were testing daily. They thought sometimes wrongly that they were at little risk, and they thought they could flout rules with impunity. Those rules, like taxes and drug laws were for the little people, not them.

It's not that they thought the rules were ineffective. They just were happy for the rest of us to make the sacrifices for the collective good, whilst they selfishly got on with their lives. Just as those that refuse vaccination for infectious diseases are relying on the rest of us to keep them safe.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey]

So how come no lockdown Sweden had a lower excess death rate than the UK?

How many people now are suffering because of lockdown? How many have died because they were unable to access the NHS for non Covid care?

Lockdown is an ongoing fucking disaster.

[Nemo]

So how come no lockdown Sweden had a lower excess death rate than the UK?

Could it be that they have had better funded public services for decades, or even a multitude of factors, rather than one simple cause?

Australia and New Zealand also have very low excess death rates, and they had much stricter lockdowns than the UK and for far longer. If lockdowns = automatically bad, you'd expect those two countries to be utterly fucked, no?

So is that evidence that you either had to have no lockdown at all or a crazy super lockdown forever, and anything in between was dangerous? Or just a sign that it might in fact be quite a complicated measure with an awful lot of factors affecting it?

Be sceptical of simple answers, particularly when they align with things you *want* to be true.

[Mooneyraker]

We currently spend £180bn per year on the Health Service. Is it underfunded?

[fuzzy]

So how come no lockdown Sweden had a lower excess death rate than the UK?

How many people now are suffering because of lockdown? How many have died because they were unable to access the NHS for non Covid care?

Lockdown is an ongoing fucking disaster.

Population wise-

Sweden has 10,285,079 at the last census.
Covid infections- 2,710,948 (26.36% infection rate)
Deaths- 24,391 (0.9% death rate)

UK 67,886,011 at last census
Covid infections 24,470,262 (36.05% infection rate)
Deaths 226,977 (0.9%)

10% more infections but identical death rate.

Why the increased infection rate?

Denser population?
Adherance to restrictions?
Restriction imposed sooner in Sweden?

I don't know the answer to the above three.

[dalumpimunki]

So how come no lockdown Sweden had a lower excess death rate than the UK?

How many people now are suffering because of lockdown? How many have died because they were unable to access the NHS for non Covid care?

Lockdown is an ongoing fucking disaster.

Bollocks. Sweden's excess deaths I'm sure are better than ours but I'm not holding up the half arsed manner of our covid response as an exemplar.

We'd had ten years of neglecting our health service, taking to pieces our public health infrastructure, to the point where we had an inadequate national system to establish a test and trace system and instead paid countless millions to the private sector to utterly fail to put a system in place. Sweden did run a decent test and trace. Something they got right. They, like the rest of Scandinavia invest in recent public services. They like the rest of Scandinavia have one of the healthiest populations in the world, with low rates of smoking, obesity and ambient air pollution. All unlike us.

I've seen probably the same table as you, tweeted by every anti-lockdown loon in the world. I think it claims to be based on OECD statistics but it never quotes a source and I've NEVER been able to find it or data that supports it on the OECD site. What I can find is the 2021 OECD Health Indicator overview report that show that across 2020 and 2021 (which contains data up to seek 26 of 2021). It shows Sweden with 512 ex deaths per million population. The worst of any of its neighbours. Way worse than Norway which was on -277 per million thanks to all the accidents and transmissible diseases lockdown prevented.

The WHO, which I'm more inclined to trust with health data than a economic forum, has Sweden with estimates of 12,207, excess deaths in 2020 and 2021 across its population of 10.4 million. Norway with 1,516 from its 5.4 million pop.

When you're working in a job that involves an understanding of epidemiology I'll be more inclined to listen. But if you were you'd know when something was utter bo!locks and not spread it further around the web.

[tans]

So how come no lockdown Sweden had a lower excess death rate than the UK?

IKEA meatballs prevent covid

[Posh Red]

IKEA meatballs prevent covid