Let's Get Political!

[Flashheart]

What, in an Austin Mini?

There's just no pleasing some people!

[4D]

My first car was an Austin Mini, then an MG Midget. British motors.
I drive an Audi now 

[BoA Vagabond]

That's because back then the leaders of the Leave campaign lied that No Deal wasn't an option to reassure people that that wasn't what they voted for and continued to do so even after the Referendum.

In April 2016, Vote Leave issued a press release, criticising an OECD report on the potential impact of Brexit that contained the "flawed assumption" that the UK might not do a free trade deal with the EU after Brexit: "The OECD states that: ‘trade with the EU and other countries would initially revert to a WTO MFN-basis’. This is a highly flawed assumption that not even the IN campaign seriously contemplates as a realistic possibility. Leading pro-EU campaigners have admitted the UK will strike a free trade agreement if we Vote Leave."

Two days before the referendum Gove told the BBC
"No-one is seriously arguing that Britain would be outside that free trade area, that tariff barriers would be erected and that Britain's manufacturing goods would be at a disadvantage."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49165836

In July 2017 Johnson blustered to the House Of Commons that "There is no plan for No Deal because we're going to get a great deal"
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/efe22c03-c1cb-4f78-8351-1efdb7d0aa22?in=11:51:08

Around the same time Liam Fox boasted that "The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/20/liam-fox-uk-eu-trade-deal-after-brexit-easiest-human-history

In March 2019 Gove said "We didn’t vote to leave without a deal. That wasn’t the message of the campaign I helped lead. Leaving without a deal on March 29 would not honour that commitment. It would undoubtedly cause economic turbulence. Almost everyone in this debate accepts that."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6793255/MICHAEL-GOVE-backing-Prime-Ministers-deal-EU-ensure-Brexit-happens.html

In June 2019, Johnson blathered his infamous "million to one" quote (about the odds of leaving without a deal)
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-leader/boris-johnson-says-chances-of-no-deal-brexit-are-a-million-to-one-idUKKCN1TR1IX

In September 2019 Johnson said (correctly for once) that leaving the EU without a deal "would be a failure of statecraft for which we would all be responsible"
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-09/leo-varadkar-boris-johnson-frosty-press-conference

And here we are. Staring down the abyss of Johson's "failure of statecraft"

FWIW, I think they will pull off a last minute, paper-thin, may-as-well-not-bother deal. I think the theatrics this week have been a show  to
1) Scare the shit out of Tory MPs who might have balked at the details of the shit deal he will get, from both wings, the "Christ is that it?" wing and the "Surrendering are sovrinty" wing
2) Be able to present a miserable paper thin shit deal as a "victory" that Johnson pulled out of the hat at the last minute by his personal intervention.

 An abject national humiliation dressed up as a dramatic "victory". Kuensberg, Peston, The Mail, Telegraph, the Express and their readers will lap it up.

Yes, it's either a massive fail or a paper-thin deal where bits get added later if we are lucky. Either way it isn't what was promised. Pantomime season and Boris is the horses-arse. Still waiting for anyone to supply a benefit of brexit that actually benefits the lives of the non-rich.

[pauld]

Gisela Stuart was the Chair of Vote Leave. She was a useful sock puppet because she was a Labour MP and German by birth. She's spent the last 4 years rubbishing the idea that No Deal was a possibility as "Project Fear". Tonight on Sky News she said "No Deal is not a preferred option for either side, but the solution is now a political one. We probably need to accept that their commitment to how they define the Single Market is even more fundamental than we had appreciated."

So the chair of Vote Leave has admitted they didn't understand the Single Market, gambled and got it completely wrong, and fucked us all over in the process. But she's OK, she was one of the Brexit peers who got ennobled for her services to Brexit by Johnson. Along with the ex-Trot IRA supporting paedo fan Claire Fox.

[Samdy Gray]

I drive an Audi now 

Explains a lot.

[RedRag]

Gisela Stuart was the Chair of Vote Leave. She was a useful sock puppet because she was a Labour MP and German by birth. She's spent the last 4 years rubbishing the idea that No Deal was a possibility as "Project Fear". Tonight on Sky News she said "No Deal is not a preferred option for either side, but the solution is now a political one. We probably need to accept that their commitment to how they define the Single Market is even more fundamental than we had appreciated."

So the chair of Vote Leave has admitted they didn't understand the Single Market, gambled and got it completely wrong, and fucked us all over in the process. But she's OK, she was one of the Brexit peers who got ennobled for her services to Brexit by Johnson. Along with the ex-Trot IRA supporting paedo fan Claire Fox.

The SM is the overriding reason 27 EU States share parts of their sovereignty with each other and accept shared regulation.

If the UK were to meaningfully participate in the SM whilst not at the very least being dynamically aligned to basic EU standards, then the 27 whose acceptance of the EU regulatory framework would be mugs.  Alongside the EEA members and the Swiss.

The UK is not being forced to dynamically align.  It is only asked to do so if it wishes to share in the benefits of the SM.  It would remain quite free to cut standards in employee rights, health and safety, the environment etc.  It would just be that the EU would not be forced to stick with a maverick cuckoo stuck inside its ordered nest.

We all recall Farage observing that the Swiss seem to do alright.  Funnily enough, a series of bilateral Swiss-style arrangements, may have been something the UK could have pursued.  It is tailored, adaptable, evolving and allows the Swiss plenty of sovereignty, albeit with EU control over facets of its own SM.

Unfortunately, unlike the Swiss who approach EU negotiations from a positive perspective, the UK  sloganeers "Leave means Leave".  Its media is permanently infected with Brussels being portrayed as some sort of Nazi dictatorship.  The UK has indeed left.  If it wants an FTA, indeed substantial access to the SM, it needs to approach the EU with some positivity rather than antagonism - and of course, negotiate, in its own interests.

[Ardiles]

Spot on.  Excellent summary.

[Outletred]

Totally wrong- again as per usual.

The EU have given Canda and other countries the access to their single market that we are after, we are not looking for anything more than they have given other third countries.

The reason they won't without dynamic alignment (that is present in no other FTA's to this degree by the way) is purely ideological.

The EU know full well no sovereign country would ever agree to these terms, they bully and bully and it seems to me they have still not come to terms with the fact we have left.

Also if we are so small and insignificant, why are they so scared of a competitor on their door step?

Regards fishing- name me one other Free trade agreement around the world where a country gives up its sovereign fishing rights, quotas are agreed annually which they should be here and like we have already agreed with Norway and Iceland.

The EU are used to if a vote does not go their way, either getting countries to vote again (Ireland, Denmark, France to name 3) or bullying countries into submission- won't work with the Brits thankfully.

Bring on no deal- we will deal with any bumps in the road and propser mightily- you only have to look at the FTAs we have done with other countries to know how easy it should have been- the EU chose for it to be this way.
 



[/quote]

[Arriba]

Whether you care for no deal Brexit or not is irrelevant in the respect that Boris lied to the nation. There was no oven ready deal. He didn't even have the ingredients. He's fucking con artist.

[RobertT]

CETA - negotiations started in 2009, concluded in 2014 and went into effect in 2017.  Not quite sure such an agreement is likely in 11 months, but good luck with that.  It's also not FREE and unbridled trade like full access to the SM, it removed a significant number of existing tariffs with an aim to boost exports to Canada.

It's primarily for goods, not services, and does not remove border checks, plus it includes provisions for common standards.

Good choice though Outledred - the newly Sovereign UK can indeed work on such a deal over the next 5 years or so if it so chooses.

[horlock07]

The EU know full well no sovereign country would ever agree to these terms, they bully and bully and it seems to me they have still not come to terms with the fact we have left.

There are 27 sovereign countries in the EU and they have managed and continue to manage just fine.

Have a little read, you might better understand how you are being used and lied to.... https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1336951447339081728.html

Anyway these benefits you keep getting asked to list, the floor is yours.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey]

It is strange, though, that the one thing the EU don’t want - the UK undercutting them on various services - is the one thing that is guaranteed if there is a no deal.

I’m sure I read a while ago that the UK was looking at slashing Corporation Tax to 15% - which would see a stampede of large companies heading to the UK from Europe. Much the same as how Dublin managed to attract some huge multinationals with its 12.5% rate.

It’s all childish tit for tat with everyone paying the price.

[RobertT]

It is strange, though, that the one thing the EU don’t want - the UK undercutting them on various services - is the one thing that is guaranteed if there is a no deal.

I’m sure I read a while ago that the UK was looking at slashing Corporation Tax to 15% - which would see a stampede of large companies heading to the UK from Europe. Much the same as how Dublin managed to attract some huge multinationals with its 12.5% rate.

It’s all childish tit for tat with everyone paying the price.

Well, that depends - if those companies need to do significant amount of transactions through the EU and tariff's are now in place, the cut in overall Corporate Tax rates may not be sufficient to tempt them.  Don't forget they've done a fairly good job at avoiding the need to pay that much in Tax anyway.

Look, it's pretty simple.  Acting as a "Sovereign" Country in isolation and having to negotiate trade deals with new partners is going to be tougher than being part of an Economic Freed Trade area the size of the EU.  It's the price to pay - the only debate is whether or not the price was worth paying?  Outledred and others like them are quite entitled to say it is worth it - just don't pretend the immediate 5-10 years after is going to be a breeze in economic terms.  Can the UK survive as an island state? of course it can.  Just remember it joined for a reason and probably can't go around forcing other countries to trade with it freely like the good old Victorian days either.

[Outletred]

Whether you care for no deal Brexit or not is irrelevant in the respect that Boris lied to the nation. There was no oven ready deal. He didn't even have the ingredients. He's fucking con artist.

He was referring to the withdrawal agreement not a trade deal this was perfectly clear.

The EU have made an acceptable deal impossible

[Outletred]

There are 27 sovereign countries in the EU and they have managed and continue to manage just fine.

Have a little read, you might better understand how you are being used and lied to.... https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1336951447339081728.html

Anyway these benefits you keep getting asked to list, the floor is yours.

They are not sovereign, they do not have control over a large part of domestic law as it is decided by  the ECJ.

As for benefits:

Stop sending large amounts of money to the EU project, and spend it here at home

Control of our own sovereign coastal waters- which Tead Heath criminally gave away

Make our own laws and vote out politicians if we do not like them- we cannot vote out the EU commission

Control our own borders- we are an Island and do not have the infrastructure to give access to 500m people to move here

Renew partnerships with the rest of the world and make trade deals without the EU around are necks

There are many more this is just for starters