Let's Get Political!

[pauld]

personally I'd rather chop my knob off with a rusty breaknife than vote Tory right now (or ever again probably)

Oooh, that's an Audrey moment right there. Saving that one

[Ardiles]

I don't understand how anybody with an ounce of decency and compassion would vote Conservative.

Completely.

I despair that we live in a country where people like Rees-Mogg are able to occupy positions of influence.  Quite how he thinks he's qualified to comment on the lives of people he can have no understand of is beyond me.

[Ardiles]

I’ve also never understood how a normal working class person looks at Eton-educated, multi-millionaires and thinks “yep, they’ve got my back”.

I’m not pro-Labour. But I’m definitely anti-Tory. Quite why staunch working class places like Swindon, Portsmouth and Plymouth vote in Tory MPs truly baffles me. What is they see in them that I’m missing? Genuinely interested to know.

Makes you realise that the feudal system never really went away.  It's changed, fair enough.  But the working classes still seem to know their place in modern Britain.

[Nemo]

I’ve also never understood how a normal working class person looks at Eton-educated, multi-millionaires and thinks “yep, they’ve got my back”.

I’m not pro-Labour. But I’m definitely anti-Tory. Quite why staunch working class places like Swindon, Portsmouth and Plymouth vote in Tory MPs truly baffles me. What is they see in them that I’m missing? Genuinely interested to know.

I can see how people looked at previous Conservative leaders and decided that they were competent, and sometimes I think competence should come ahead of complete agreement with policy or shared life experience. But would struggle to make that argument for Johnson.

[pauld]

Completely.

I despair that we live in a country where people like Rees-Mogg are able to occupy positions of influence.  Quite how he thinks he's qualified to comment on the lives of people he can have no understand of is beyond me.

A massive sense of entitlement, same as his boss, Johnson.

Getting back to the "I don't understand how anyone can possibly vote Tory" topic, while I'm unlikely to ever vote Tory (despite what Reg might think of my apparently alarmingly right-wing tendencies ), I can certainly see why people would vote Tory. There's an element of confirmation bias in all these things, so the things that some of us might look at and find horrific, others kind of automatically discount as "Just the way they are" or "Media bias" or just less important than what they see as being the positive elements of their chosen party. The same happens the other way round - there's plenty of people who can't get past photos of Corbyn with Sinn Fein leaders at IRA funerals or sharing a platform with Hamas and that's it, it's a full stop for them and they literally cannot understand how anyone could vote for him. But Labour supporters will discount that, even if they don't like it, because it's more important to them to save the NHS or get the Tories out. Everyone does it. But the fact that more and more people increasingly can't understand how half the nation could hold a different perspective from their own is very worrying IMO. It's a corrosive divisiveness that is undermining our democracy which is in large part based on consensus and tolerance. We are losing both

[Reg Smeeton]

I’ve also never understood how a normal working class person looks at Eton-educated, multi-millionaires and thinks “yep, they’ve got my back”.

I’m not pro-Labour. But I’m definitely anti-Tory. Quite why staunch working class places like Swindon, Portsmouth and Plymouth vote in Tory MPs truly baffles me. What is they see in them that I’m missing? Genuinely interested to know.

Places like Plymuff and Pompey are highly dependent on the Navy. Tory party is normally viewed as being more pro military.

In Swindon the 2008 bankers global crash, meant that many of the new home owners expecially in N Swindon felt the pinch.

For this reason they don't want to risk having to pay more in taxes, being prepared to put up with public squalor as long as it doesn't get in the way of a 50" TV or SUV etc

Of course the irony is they do pay more in taxes anyway, so that for example bankers can be bailed out, employers can be compensated for low wages by tax credits, and the very wealthy and Tory MP's and no doubt some from other parties can carry on with tax avoidance schemes.

[RobertT]

I don't understand how anybody with an ounce of decency and compassion would vote Conservative. Trouble is we live in very selfish times and many people are incredibly stupid too.

Because politics involves humans.

Every left wing economic policy has at it's roots the notion that working together for a common cause can create a better society.  Take Communism - the principles seems fair enough, no job is any more important than another and the wealth is shared equally.  Two major issues arise - first, if the people living at your border don;t take this approach, people see other people getting ahead and look on with envy, second, someone has to be making decisions, so as much as no one job is worth more, there are some that rise to the top, pure greed finds a way - opulence is preferred to common middle of the roadness.  Humans mean it can never work.

On the flip side, pure free market economics is love by the old right wing, letting people live by their own wits will drive people to do better, and by doing so they'll bring other along by providing employment.  Competition will drive companies to become efficient and provide better services.  We all do better (but some more so than others) if we let the best rise to the top.  The problem here is greed, many of those who reach the top want more, they are insatiable and you get monopolies, who realise they have the upper hand.  The owners horde their wealth rather than reinvest it for others.  Eventually people becomes resentful and some are left completely behind.  Again, doomed to failure if left to it's own devices because you can't trust humans.

We don't have either extreme, so people are around the edges of both of these.  Take the USA, the concept of the NHS is still only supported by less than 30% of people here - the idea of having to pay for someone else's medical bill drives them crazy, because they've had years of being brought up in a free market approach.  There are probably some people voting Tory who equally look at Social Care in all it's forms as giving a handout, creating people who would rather live for that than strive for personal betterment.  They cannot understand why they should give up their hard earned money to support others.  The problem again is humans - we've all seen someone who is indeed lazy, and while not living it up, is no doubt going to be living the rest of their life on someone else's pay cheque.  Just one person justifies the Free Market view.  On the other side of the coin, we've all seen people who are rolling in wealth and did nothing to gain that or help anyone else up along the way.  We can't understand how these people can be allowed to live like that while others have been given poor opportunities and had little chance of making much of their life.

[horlock07]

He lost me about 2 mins in.... Tim loves a conspiracy.....

[Batch]

For this reason they don't want to risk having to pay more in taxes, being prepared to put up with public squalor as long as it doesn't get in the way of a 50" TV or SUV etc

IMO it not the fear of more tax, its about doing it "fairly" (which is difficult as its subjective).

And yes there is a degree of selfisness in that, I agree.

I can give a couple of examples of the above that puts me off Corbyn - namely a) the chances of pension tax relief/state pension irrosion b) the aleged lower limits on inhertance tax.

People shouldn't be unfairly treated for being more successful.

[BambooToTheFuture]

Nothing has really changed. The tested route of "Divide & Conquer" will hand you the keys to power.

[Reg Smeeton]

IMO it not the fear of more tax, its about doing it "fairly" (which is difficult as its subjective).

And yes there is a degree of selfisness in that, I agree.

I can give a couple of examples of the above that puts me off Corbyn - namely a) the chances of pension tax relief/state pension irrosion b) the aleged lower limits on inhertance tax.

People shouldn't be unfairly treated for being more successful.

IDS wants pensions to kick in at 75, inheritance tax was at about 300K..... Tories bumped it up to a mill. The likes of Grosvenor avoid it all together.

The majority of punters will be doing well to see anything like 300K come their way.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/pension-age-rise-iain-duncan-smith-state-centre-for-social-justice-pension-age-75-a9071396.html

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/aug/11/inheritance-tax-why-the-new-duke-of-westminster-will-not-pay-billions

[pauld]

Farage's cash cow falling apart in first few days of campaigning

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-brexit-party-disarray-20814948

[Arriba]

The brexit party only represent those who think that a hard no deal Brexit is the answer. They don't have any other policies at all. They're a fucking joke quite frankly

[Flashheart]

I don't understand why more people are not kicking off about Boris suppressing the Russia report.

[StfcRusty]

Good, interesting, balanced post - cheers

Because politics involves humans.

Every left wing economic policy has at it's roots the notion that working together for a common cause can create a better society.  Take Communism - the principles seems fair enough, no job is any more important than another and the wealth is shared equally.  Two major issues arise - first, if the people living at your border don;t take this approach, people see other people getting ahead and look on with envy, second, someone has to be making decisions, so as much as no one job is worth more, there are some that rise to the top, pure greed finds a way - opulence is preferred to common middle of the roadness.  Humans mean it can never work.

On the flip side, pure free market economics is love by the old right wing, letting people live by their own wits will drive people to do better, and by doing so they'll bring other along by providing employment.  Competition will drive companies to become efficient and provide better services.  We all do better (but some more so than others) if we let the best rise to the top.  The problem here is greed, many of those who reach the top want more, they are insatiable and you get monopolies, who realise they have the upper hand.  The owners horde their wealth rather than reinvest it for others.  Eventually people becomes resentful and some are left completely behind.  Again, doomed to failure if left to it's own devices because you can't trust humans.

We don't have either extreme, so people are around the edges of both of these.  Take the USA, the concept of the NHS is still only supported by less than 30% of people here - the idea of having to pay for someone else's medical bill drives them crazy, because they've had years of being brought up in a free market approach.  There are probably some people voting Tory who equally look at Social Care in all it's forms as giving a handout, creating people who would rather live for that than strive for personal betterment.  They cannot understand why they should give up their hard earned money to support others.  The problem again is humans - we've all seen someone who is indeed lazy, and while not living it up, is no doubt going to be living the rest of their life on someone else's pay cheque.  Just one person justifies the Free Market view.  On the other side of the coin, we've all seen people who are rolling in wealth and did nothing to gain that or help anyone else up along the way.  We can't understand how these people can be allowed to live like that while others have been given poor opportunities and had little chance of making much of their life.