Let's Get Political!

[pauld]

Jo Johnson (Boris' brother) quits as Tory MP.

Just seen this described on Twitter as the first example of a politician resigning to spend less time with his family

[Reg Smeeton]

There wasn't that much difference between the governments in the 90s and early 2000s because "New Labour" adopted much of Thatcherism's economic agenda and Blair shifted Labour into the centre. That was followed by a fairly centrist coalition between the Tories and Lib Dems so there really wasn't much difference between them and the previous Blair govt. But the Tories have now shifted dramatically to the right and Labour equally dramatically to the left. There's a gaping chasm between the Tories' stance on, say, further privatisation of the public sector, just look at the stripping away of the NHS under "Not on my watch" Matt Hancock, vs Labour wanting to renationalise utilities. In international affairs, the Tories are following Trump's isolationist stance while Labour is still fairly internationalist (the exception to that being Corbyn's historic antipathy to NATO, but that doesn't seem to be party policy). That's just a couple of simple examples. If you can't tell the difference between the parties currently, you need to change where you get your news from.

And that gap is likely to get wider as Johnson (well, Cummings really) seems set on reinventing the Tories as an English Nationalist party

From your position right of centre, Labour may look left wing, but it really doesn't propose anything much more than mainstream European social democracy.

The test of Labour's potential for becoming a truly left wing party will come in its response to the climate emergency; there are occasional noises about things like a "new green deal" but there will have to be seismic shifts for this to happen.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey]

So, this 2nd Referendum. If, as expected, the result is between No Brexit or Brexit with a deal, how is any deal going to differ from May’s deal with the infamous Backstop still being an EU ‘red line’.

Surely, no UK party would sign up to that. The only way out of this is if the result is No Brexit - and that’s not a given.

This shit storm is going to rumble on for donkey’s year yet.

[pauld]

From your position right of centre, Labour may look left wing, but it really doesn't propose anything much more than mainstream European social democracy.

Ha ha that's the first time I've been called right of centre. Love the way people assume they know my politics on the basis of their own reactions to what I post, rather than reading what I've actually said. However, if you'd read what I posted more carefully you'd have seen that I didn't say Labour were especially left wing but that they had moved dramatically to the left from the Blair years, just as the Tories had moved dramatically to the right. I don't think that's an especially controversial suggestion.

[pauld]

So, this 2nd Referendum. If, as expected, the result is between No Brexit or Brexit with a deal, how is any deal going to differ from May’s deal with the infamous Backstop still being an EU ‘red line’.

Surely, no UK party would sign up to that. The only way out of this is if the result is No Brexit - and that’s not a given.

This shit storm is going to rumble on for donkey’s year yet.

It will rumble on whatever the outcome. The idea that leaving with no deal is a "clean break" is a nonsense, whatever way we leave it's not the end of anything just the start of a decade or more of negotiations to try and work out what our relationship with the rest of the world actually is now

[Peter Venkman]

Ha ha that's the first time I've been called right of centre. Love the way people assume they know my politics on the basis of their own reactions to what I post, rather than reading what I've actually said. However, if you'd read what I posted more carefully you'd have seen that I didn't say Labour were especially left wing but that they had moved dramatically to the left from the Blair years, just as the Tories had moved dramatically to the right. I don't think that's an especially controversial suggestion.

Weird, I always had you down as being left of centre from your postings, not far left (which I probably am) but certainly much more left than centre and certainly nowhere near the right side.

[horlock07]

Ha ha that's the first time I've been called right of centre. Love the way people assume they know my politics on the basis of their own reactions to what I post, rather than reading what I've actually said. However, if you'd read what I posted more carefully you'd have seen that I didn't say Labour were especially left wing but that they had moved dramatically to the left from the Blair years, just as the Tories had moved dramatically to the right. I don't think that's an especially controversial suggestion.

Sadly its the default response to anyone who is not ideologically pure enough to be part of the cult, anyone remotely right of Corbyn is a Blairite centre rightest...

And they wonder why they just cannot tie down the popular vote..... 

[pauld]

Sadly its the default response to anyone who is not ideologically pure enough to be part of the cult, anyone remotely right of Corbyn is a Blairite centre rightest...

It's the same as SRK/LL shouting "commie" at anyone who disagrees with their Trumpian world view. There's increasingly little difference between the two extremes of politics in their approach to these things, even down to both Johnson and Corbyn refusing to appear on the Today programme in case they get asked hard questions. Maybe 4D had a point after all.... 

[horlock07]

It's the same as SRK/LL shouting "commie" at anyone who disagrees with their Trumpian world view. There's increasingly little difference between the two extremes of politics in their approach to these things, even down to both Johnson and Corbyn refusing to appear on the Today programme in case they get asked hard questions. Maybe 4D had a point after all.... 

For some light relief read the ongoing spat between Hillary Benn and Gove at the Brexit committee...

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1169566180056731648

[Reg Smeeton]

Ha ha that's the first time I've been called right of centre. Love the way people assume they know my politics on the basis of their own reactions to what I post, rather than reading what I've actually said. However, if you'd read what I posted more carefully you'd have seen that I didn't say Labour were especially left wing but that they had moved dramatically to the left from the Blair years, just as the Tories had moved dramatically to the right. I don't think that's an especially controversial suggestion.

Oh but I do read what you post and that's how it comes across. It's been 9 years since Blair/Brown.... Ed Miliband's 2015 manifesto was criticised by Sturgeon for proposing the continuation of austerity, it was his defeat which prompted the ascent of Corbyn on an anti austerity ticket.  That is such a radical idea that Javid is the latest Tory chancellor to tell us it is now over.  It's probably true that Labour has inched to the left, but it s hardly "dramatic" 

[pauld]

Oh but I do read what you post and that's how it comes across. It's been 9 years since Blair/Brown.... Ed Miliband's 2015 manifesto was criticised by Sturgeon for proposing the continuation of austerity, it was his defeat which prompted the ascent of Corbyn on an anti austerity ticket.  That is such a radical idea that Javid is the latest Tory chancellor to tell us it is now over.  It's probably true that Labour has inched to the left, but it s hardly "dramatic" 

If suggesting that Corbyn is quite left wing makes me centre right, then colour me Ken Clarke. Beyond that I'm baffled as to how you'd find anything right of centre in anything I've posted? But yeah, whatever. #myopic

[Reg Smeeton]

If suggesting that Corbyn is quite left wing makes me centre right, then colour me Ken Clarke. Beyond that I'm baffled as to how you'd find anything right of centre in anything I've posted? But yeah, whatever. #myopic

The original point was about Labour, what Corbyn thinks or believes doesn't necessarily become policy. 

Labour policy is mainstream social democrat, it's slightly to the left of centre... your continued attacks on Corbyn suggest you don't inhabit the space beyond him, but rather somewhere to the right of the policies as now set out.

The recent thread on  ER a case in point.... no contribution from you about the substantive argument about climate change and a way froward, but an attack on Corbyn, who at least has got Parliament to declare a climate emergency.

[4D]

Blimey Reg, where would you have placed Ironside? 

PaulD is treble 11 at a guess 

[pauld]

Labour policy is mainstream social democrat, it's slightly to the left of centre... your continued attacks on Corbyn suggest you don't inhabit the space beyond him, but rather somewhere to the right of the policies as now set out.

Bollocks. I don't criticise Corbyn because he's left wing, I criticise him because he's shit. His abject failure to provide coherent opposition to the disaster we have in government at the moment makes him every bit as much to blame for the current mess as Johnson. Any halfway competent leader of the opposition would have seen off May and been in power by now.

[Reg Smeeton]

Bollocks. I don't criticise Corbyn because he's left wing, I criticise him because he's shit. His abject failure to provide coherent opposition to the disaster we have in government at the moment makes him every bit as much to blame for the current mess as Johnson. Any halfway competent leader of the opposition would have seen off May and been in power by now.

The point you made was that Labour had moved dramatically to the left... not so.  Pinning down positions to left or right is an inexact science, and not something to worry too much about.  Out of interest are you or have you ever been involved in politics?