Let's Get Political!

[pauld]

If there were to be a second referendum (and I don't think there should be), the question would need to be in two parts:
1) Leave or Remain
2) If Leave, leave with May's deal or leave with no deal?

And there should be at least a 60% majority required to overturn the status quo (some countries use 66% IIRC). As there should have been last time

[GosportNob]

Not guilty I am afraid. It is a sneaky ploy by the honest john politicians to ensure if a second referendum, people's vote confirmation vote (choose what you want to call it) is held their desired outcome cannot fail. The result of the referendum is known and should be implemented. Don't care which party/views people support Parliamentarians will never be trusted again!

[Bob's Orange]

I see the EU have signed a free trade agreement with South America that took 20 years to negotiate.

How do these things take that length of time? I know there are complexities but 20 years is a barmy amount of time!

[GosportNob]

That's a fair argument Pauld but taken to it's natural conclusion no-one would win any vote/election as the "winner" hardly ever achieves 66%. The question we should be asking is if a new poll still showed the majority wish to leave do we go for best of 5 referenda? What if 50.01% of possibly a smaller number voting next time support remain does that mean we must all accept the result? Ask the guy in the bowler hat and EU flag/placards what he thinks. As an aside who is leaking where the next political interview will take place so he can be in the background. Ha Ha.

[GosportNob]

Ooops meant to type top hat.Ha Ha

[Legends-Lounge]

If there were to be a second referendum (and I don't think there should be), the question would need to be in two parts:
1) Leave or Remain
2) If Leave, leave with May's deal or leave with no deal?

And there should be at least a 60% majority required to overturn the status quo (some countries use 66% IIRC). As there should have been last time

If there were to be a second referendum (and I don't think there should be), the question would need to be in two parts: That much we agree on...
However, would it though? It does open a huge can of worms. Who sets the question/s? What would they say/ask? Would they be loaded one way or another? How many questions? Would there be a preference set up for multiple questions. It just goes on, which IMHO there should be no second vote. It does suit the EU of course dragging it out and keep putting back the leaving date. Trying to wear us down one way or another.

So taking your 2nd point. No deal is as it suggests, fair enough, however, is May’s real really as good as it gets? My understanding of part of it as it stands is that we would be hamstrung for at least two years from striking trade deals. Now as someone has asked today about the twenty years allegedly that the EU has taken to strike a trade deal with S. America. You can rest assured that in the two years we couldn’t do any trade deals ourselves the EU will do whatever they can to get any ongoing deals they are working on over the line and at the same time sabotage anything we may try to do after our two year hiatus is over.

Personallyspeaking by taking the threat of not deal off the table we as a country have snatched the gun from the EU in a game of Russian roulette, why I have no idea. If as has been parroted by ‘remain’ MP’s that they respect the vote to leave then surely as patriotic citizens taking the queens shilling on our behalf they should be going hell for leather to get the absolutely best deal we can get. If that means using a no deal as a weapon so be it. Unless of course these MP’s have no intention of letting the U.K. ever leave.

[pauld]

So taking your 2nd point. No deal is as it suggests, fair enough, however, is May’s real really as good as it gets?

If you want to leave by 31st Oct it is, the EU have made that very clear, whatever ridiculous fantasies Johnson and Hunt are spinning about renegoiating the terms of the deal

[GosportNob]

Too true Legends Lounge! For about a month after the referendum all nay sayers went into shock. Then the drivel started :- I accept the result of the referendum but........ no one voted to be poorer....... those who voted to leave didn't know what they were voting for....... I stood on a manifesto to implement the result of the referendum but my constituents kn :clap:ew my personal view was we must remain.....

Throughout the time since the referendum the political elite, the pro remain BBC and Sky have been drip feeding project fear Mark two. However the manner in which the EU has conducted "negotiations" is so vile I suspect a fair referendum would now be much more for leave than in the original.

[Bogus Dave]

Combe down is back then

[Bogus Dave]

How have the EU handled negotiations poorly??

[Legends-Lounge]

If you want to leave by 31st Oct it is, the EU have made that very clear, whatever ridiculous fantasies Johnson and Hunt are spinning about renegoiating the terms of the deal

I disagree, in as much as IIRC two ministers Davis being one, Raab being another. Or was it three? who were charged with negotiating our exit then resigned because of May, who eventually took it in herself to ‘negotiate’ from one of the weakest positions one could have as we won’t leave without a deal. As I mentioned before if you have not got the option to in street speak tell ’em to fuck, you’re going to get shafted. Of course she was aided and abetted by Parliament who wrestled legislation through ensuring we couldnt do that. So we are where we are. We both agree it is not ideal and although we come from different ends of the political spectrum how many votes have we had on the ‘deal’ that have won parliamentary support? None. We know we cannot keep going on as is but my feeling is if we do not however it is managed in the HOC get to within spitting distance of 31/10 without a concrete mandate to sign off what is currently on the table (assuming nothing else has been agreed to) the the EU will blink. How that manifests itself god knows though again I think they will. If you pushed me i’d say yet another extension. In that case rest assured behind the scenes the horse trading would be going full steam. Boris or Hunt has to stand up and be counted or this time next year Rodney we’ll still be discussing this clusterfuck. Don’t rule out a GE either, which then....ah fuck it’s hot and I have guests around for a BBQ later. I need to check on my marinating leg of lamb and temperature of the beer. 🍺

[pauld]

I disagree, in as much as IIRC two ministers Davis being one, Raab being another. Or was it three? who were charged with negotiating our exit then resigned because of May, who eventually took it in herself to ‘negotiate’ from one of the weakest positions one could have as we won’t leave without a deal. As I mentioned before if you have not got the option to in street speak tell ’em to fuck, you’re going to get shafted. Of course she was aided and abetted by Parliament who wrestled legislation through ensuring we couldnt do that. So we are where we are. We both agree it is not ideal and although we come from different ends of the political spectrum how many votes have we had on the ‘deal’ that have won parliamentary support? None. We know we cannot keep going on as is but my feeling is if we do not however it is managed in the HOC get to within spitting distance of 31/10 without a concrete mandate to sign off what is currently on the table (assuming nothing else has been agreed to) the the EU will blink. How that manifests itself god knows though again I think they will. If you pushed me i’d say yet another extension. In that case rest assured behind the scenes the horse trading would be going full steam. Boris or Hunt has to stand up and be counted or this time next year Rodney we’ll still be discussing this clusterfuck. Don’t rule out a GE either, which then....ah fuck it’s hot and I have guests around for a BBQ later. I need to check on my marinating leg of lamb and temperature of the beer. 🍺

You've missed the point. It's no longer about the willingness of either side to renegotiate or the skills of any of the various protagonists, there just isn't time to renegotiate a deal by 31st Oct. There will be 3 months left when Johnson becomes PM. And parliament isn't sitting for a good month of that. No chance. The choices on Oct 31st will be May's deal, no deal or (yet another) extension.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey]

Boris calling the French ‘turds’ should ease negotiations.

[GosportNob]

How have the EU handled negotiations poorly? FFS the point I made was they have handled the negotiations brilliantly from their point of view. However with remainer mp's going to Brussels and telling them to keep pushing they, the EU couldn't fail. However they used most of the "nasty" quotes taking every opportunity to slag off the UK. Tusk  et al don't seem to be very pleasant people.

[Legends-Lounge]

You've missed the point. It's no longer about the willingness of either side to renegotiate or the skills of any of the various protagonists, there just isn't time to renegotiate a deal by 31st Oct. There will be 3 months left when Johnson becomes PM. And parliament isn't sitting for a good month of that. No chance. The choices on Oct 31st will be May's deal, no deal or (yet another) extension.

Another extension it is, which I alluded to. Although as you rightly say, there is little or no chance to renegotiate ‘thedeal’ before 31/10 don’t think there are no more talks going on. The EU are worried make no mistake about that. 1) if and it is a big if we grow a pair and walk. 2) if and again it is a big if BJ to JH has the full backing of parliament to sit down and tell them if they want to extend we will go with it on the proviso that the deal is reworked in some way or 1) is our default position. The irresistible force or the immovable object?