Coronavirus

[pauld]

I'm not usually given to sympathising with the government but the Christmas thing is genuinely difficult. We are staying in London for Christmas, but everyone else I know is travelling home to every corner of the country to see relatives. If the rules changed to ban them I think 80% would go anyway. It's one of those things where they have to ask is it better to set the rules at a level that most might follow even if that's not really high enough? God knows I wouldn't want to be the PM that cancelled Christmas.

Yet they were more than happy to put large swathes of the North into lockdown at 9pm the night before Eid?

[Nemo]

Yet they were more than happy to put large swathes of the North into lockdown at 9pm the night before Eid?

Yes, because as much as Eid is culturally significant to the Muslim population, the vast majority of the country is not geared up to travel the country and generally enjoy themselves on the way we are at Christmas. I get the fairness argument and it is absolutely hypocritical but it's simply the case that cancelling Christmas would hang around any PM like pretty much nothing else.

[Boeta]

Don't buy the Eid argument.

Christmas is a national holiday for everybody these days not a religious one.

[suttonred]

Since we came out of Lockdown II and the pubs reopened, I don't know one person in London who hasn't been out on the piss, for dinner etc. It's absolutely no surprise the rates have changed so significantly.

On Xmas, you'd imagine they know people are going to push the boundaries so you set the bar with that margin for breaches built in.

Doesn't change Xmas day for us at all, but we've got to make a call whether to break the rules and see my parents or not and that's shit.

I think public compliance is at an all-time low - no matter what rules are in place, people will always get away with as much as possible. If we can't be trusted to follow guidelines, closing the hospitality industry is the only option and when people complain about job losses etc, maybe they should look in the mirror and reflect on the fact that there's a chance these coming closures wouldn't be necessary if we'd all followed the most recent guidelines.

I havent. And have no intention of travelling or going out  at Christmas

[pauld]

Yes, because as much as Eid is culturally significant to the Muslim population, the vast majority of the country is not geared up to travel the country and generally enjoy themselves on the way we are at Christmas. I get the fairness argument and it is absolutely hypocritical but it's simply the case that cancelling Christmas would hang around any PM like pretty much nothing else.

And that's precisely the point. This is being driven by considerations of Johnson's personal ratings, not public health.

We told my folks we wouldn't be going to see them for this one Christmas so that we would hopefully be able to visit them for many more in  the future.

[Shrivvy Road]

And that's precisely the point. This is being driven by considerations of Johnson's personal ratings, not public health.

We told my folks we wouldn't be going to see them for this one Christmas so that we would hopefully be able to visit them for many more in the future.

I am only quoting you because weirdly I was discussing this earlier with someone else. They did make me sit up and think for a moment if i was to not see my Mum (still undecided ) this Christmas in the hope that i did next year and something god forbid happened next year to stop that how would i feel? It is tough this year isn't it as each person's situation is important to them.

My inlaws are in our bubble as such because they can't do anything i do all the shopping etc for them, they will be coming to us Christmas day but it's allowed i suppose

[theakston2k]

I am only quoting you because weirdly I was discussing this earlier with someone else. They did make me sit up and think for a moment if i was to not see my Mum (still undecided ) this Christmas in the hope that i did next year and something god forbid happened next year to stop that how would i feel? It is tough this year isn't it as each person's situation is important to them.

This is my thought process, there are hundreds of other things that could kill a family member. many of which far more likely than COVID. Therefore I’d rather not miss out on spending time with my family rather than not and miss out due to something else happening. This is the conundrum with this whole situation, it’s all very well saying stay away from relatives to reduce the risk for them but on the flip side you are wasting valuable time with some of your family. My family are happy to get together and I’ll be going with that option, treat every Christmas like it could be your last together.

[Flashheart]

Thousands, nay, millions of the populus turn to people like Pearson for information on COVID, among other things:

[pauld]

I am only quoting you because weirdly I was discussing this earlier with someone else. They did make me sit up and think for a moment if i was to not see my Mum (still undecided ) this Christmas in the hope that i did next year and something god forbid happened next year to stop that how would i feel? It is tough this year isn't it as each person's situation is important to them.

Yes and your final point that each person's situation is important, and to some extent unique, to them is also very pertinent. I do think the govt are being massively irresponsible in lifting restrictions over Christmas, primarily because of the message it sends as much as anything, but I certainly wouldn't look to translate that onto any individual family's situation.

[horlock07]

Err, I mean it was always going to do that. Viruses mutate, and the mutations are less deadly than the previous version

This might not even be bad news, particularly if the vaccine isn’t affected

Exactly, reading around this morning a heck of a lot of experts on the subject seem perplexed why Hancock felt the need to raise it and set Hares running worrying people.

[pauld]

Exactly, reading around this morning a heck of a lot of experts on the subject seem perplexed why Hancock felt the need to raise it and set Hares running worrying people.

Because it's a handy thing to be able to blame the upsurge in virus cases on, rather than admitting that the tiers as constituted aren't working

[RobertT]

I am only quoting you because weirdly I was discussing this earlier with someone else. They did make me sit up and think for a moment if i was to not see my Mum (still undecided ) this Christmas in the hope that i did next year and something god forbid happened next year to stop that how would i feel? It is tough this year isn't it as each person's situation is important to them.

My inlaws are in our bubble as such because they can't do anything i do all the shopping etc for them, they will be coming to us Christmas day but it's allowed i suppose

I understand your point, and it sort of underlines the Western World's approach to the virus.  I haven't "seen" my mum since November of last year and likely won't until May of next year if we are lucky.  That was partly my fault for moving to another Country I guess.

The flip side of course, is what if you turn out to be an Asymptomatic carrier, pass the virus on and your Mum gets very sick or dies as a result - harsh, but not impossible.

Ultimately, the Western World has treated this like it does having an infection - the antibiotics have a sentence on the instructions to remind you to take the entire course for a reason, people don't.  People also read the instructions and often ignore the bit that suggests not drinking alcohol while taking them, and so on.  We simply struggle to, literally, take our medicine. 

Lets look a comparisons - New Zealand.  Yes it is small and an island, but, small locations have had a much worse time.  It's not the best performer in terms of controlling the virus, but it's probably one of the best Western style countries.  They succeeded by taking harsh medicine - they tool the entire course, or pretty close, by fully locking down including their borders.  They place any new entrant to the Country in forded quarantine for 14 days before they are allowed to mingle with the general population and as soon as any breakout does occur they have locked back down immediately.  This has allowed them to return to some sense of normality for periods of the past 10 months and avoid not only deaths, but also infection.

We have to have a debate about whether or not wearing a mask is useful.  Asian countries do it for normal flu season.

Essentially, our entire culture breads a certain sense of selfishness (I am not directing that at any individual, I include myself), a sense that we are entitled to certain things.  It serves us well outside of a crises (as far as we compare ourselves to other cultures) but immediately undermines situations such as this.  Imagine all those months ago if we'd just locked down for four to six weeks (not a sort of lockdown).  It would have been painful - hardly anyone allowed out, not even to exercise.  I'm an open borders sort of person - this is precisely the time borders become useful, and not just at the Country level - once out of the initial, everytime an outbreak is detected, that location should have gone into lockdown again.

Maybe had we done that, we'd be able to talk about a sort of normal Christmas if that was what was truly important?  Instead, we get here, having a debate about whether the risk is worth it while Covid smashes its way into the top 3 reasons to cause death in 2020 and giving thousands more long term health problems no doubt.

[horlock07]

Lets look a comparisons - New Zealand.  Yes it is small and an island, but, small locations have had a much worse time.  It's not the best performer in terms of controlling the virus, but it's probably one of the best Western style countries.  They succeeded by taking harsh medicine - they tool the entire course, or pretty close, by fully locking down including their borders. 

This is the most mental thing about the UK response, we had a vote 4 years back and possibly for many the key element of which was to take back control of our borders and the people voted in favour of it.

In the last 11 months we have had a situation whereby we could have achieved a great deal if we had closed the borders much as with New Zealand, yet our government (who bang on about taking back control) have done nothing, Christ even the libtard remainers like myself would have nodded along with it, but nothing.

[pauld]

Absolutely spot on, Rob.

[Hunk]

Currently sat in Fullers (Pride, please) in terminal 2 Heathrow on the way to the States to see my kids, and its eerie how quiet it is. There's hardly anyone around. Feeling a bit weird anyway, the couple in front of me in immigration were visiting the States for the same reason as me but hadn't brought sufficient paperwork and were turned away. Felt horrible for them, was really rough. Was bittersweet when I was ushered through. Hey ho.