Finally...a man who stands up and says what a lot of people really think

[Ardiles]

Why does everything have to be black or white?  I think the consensus is fast moving towards a model of regulated capitalism for the next few decades.  Communism has been discredited (as seen with the collapse of the Soviet Union).  Now we are seeing a similar collapse in the idealogy of unfettered, unregulated capitalism.

The solution lies somewhere in the middle.  Exactly where in the middle will be decided by political debate during the coming months and years.

[pauld]

I'm intrigued what's your alternative to markets? Communism?

What Ardiles said - it's not either/or.

And you know what, I don't have a big overriding political philosophy as a "Buy this, it'll solve all your problems in one sweet hit". I just thought Hannan's speech was vacuous rhetoric, and insofar as it actually contained a point of any substance, it was flawed as the man he was accusing. So I said so. I don't think that makes me a communist. The hammer and sickle T-shirt, Arthur is God mug and furry hat may do, but calling Hannan an empty self-publicist doesn't

[Samdy Gray]

General Discussion seems to have turned into General Politics lately. Not having a go, just an observation like.

[Talk Talk]

General Discussion seems to have turned into General Politics lately. Not having a go, just an observation like.

Because you're not interested in politics Sam..? 

[Talk Talk]

Now we are seeing a similar collapse in the idealogy of unfettered, unregulated capitalism.

I disagree. I don't think we have had ever had unfettered, unregulated capitalism in recent history. Certainly not since governments set up central banks and began to control the money supply, generally in the early years of the last century and have piled on more and more regulations ever since.

The truly free market hasn't had a chance since the pioneers who populated the mid-West of America last century and were surprisingly successful without regulation or a state.

[ghanimah]

Why does everything have to be black or white?  I think the consensus is fast moving towards a model of regulated capitalism for the next few decades.  Communism has been discredited (as seen with the collapse of the Soviet Union).  Now we are seeing a similar collapse in the idealogy of unfettered, unregulated capitalism.

The solution lies somewhere in the middle.  Exactly where in the middle will be decided by political debate during the coming months and years.

I agree with that, I just get the impression, maybe wrongly, that Pauld just thinks markets are a bad thing full stop.

Yes banks have made mistakes and yes they got greedy, but that's what they do ('I can't help it I'm a scorpion'). The trick is to regulate to curb the excesses. And this credit crunch / recession is less a failure of markets but more a failure of regulation.

Brown was warned repeatedly while he was chancellor about the state of the UK economy by the EU and the IMF and he repeatedly ignored those warnings. The FSA, by it's own Chairman's admission, failed - the FSA set up by Brown himself at the time he made the Bank of England independent.

It's not the bank's or the market's recession, it's Brown's who couldn't help but gorge himself on the tax revenues that the city brought in.

Brown in 2005:

So regulation came to mean that government routinely and continuously inspected everyone and everything, demanded information from all of us on a blanket basis, required forms to be filled in for all issues subject to regulation and inspection -- the only barrier to complete coverage usually being a lack of resources.

This approach, followed for more than a century of regulation by governments of all parties is outdated.

The better, and in my opinion the correct, modern model of regulation – the risk based approach - is based on trust in the responsible company, the engaged employee and the educated consumer, leading government to focus its attention where it should: no inspection without justification, no form filling without justification, and no information requirements without justification, not just a light touch but a limited touch.

http://www.cbi.org.uk/ndbs/press.nsf/0363c1f07c6ca12a8025671c00381cc7/ee59d1c32ce4ec12802570c70041152c?OpenDocument

[Samdy Gray]

Because you're not interested in politics Sam..? 

Quite. Doesn't interest me in the slightest.

[pauld]

I agree with that, I just get the impression, maybe wrongly, that Pauld just thinks markets are a bad thing full stop.

No I don't. I never said that - as I said above, I just think in the clip shown, Hannan is wafting cheap rhetoric around and has nothing of substance to say. As the thread was started so we could all admire his amazing political genius, I think it's reasonable to point that out.

[Ironside]

No I don't. I never said that - as I said above, I just think in the clip shown, Hannan is wafting cheap rhetoric around and has nothing of substance to say. As the thread was started so we could all admire his amazing political genius, I think it's reasonable to point that out.

But that is what politics is and has been in since princess Tony.

[Fred Elliot]

I am with Sam on this one

[reeves4england]

Markets are not perfect. They never will be. The efficient running of markets is based on ridiculous assumptions and are centred on nothing more than best-guess activities. They would work if people knew and understood them, but that simply isn't possible. The problem is that there is no perfect alternative. Communism arose with so many grand promises yet failed just as epically. If there was a perfect solution, it would be in use.

Then there's the problem of politics. Do we losen regulations? Look at the reaction to that. "They're taking our jobs"... "foreign imports are threatening our industries". Do we increase regulation? The obvious response to this would be to highlight the inefficiencies and numerous disadvantages incurred by preventing international trade in certain sectors.

Brown hasn't done a good job, Cameron has done bugger all to convince me he knows any better, and I've barely heard a peep from the Lib Dems (although I'm sure they've said plenty that's been less publicised). As long as there is an electorate to please, no government will take radical stances or make huge changes to the way our economic system works, and will continue to do whatever they can to maintain the status quo which the politically and economically uneducated see as being right simply because it is how they recognise Britian.

[Talk Talk]

There's a much easier solution.

Get rid of government completely

[ghanimah]

No I don't. I never said that - as I said above, I just think in the clip shown, Hannan is wafting cheap rhetoric around and has nothing of substance to say. As the thread was started so we could all admire his amazing political genius, I think it's reasonable to point that out.

Fair enough, was just saying really, based on your previous posts there seems to be (to me) a running theme that markets are bad - the fault of everything, i.e. if in doubt blame Thatcher or the markets; 'Grrr I have to mow the lawn, it keeps on growing - I blame Thatcher for that' 

As an aside I see the Hannan clip is on the front page of the widely read US site drudgereport

http://www.drudgereport.com/

[pauld]

Fair enough, was just saying really, based on your previous posts there seems to be (to me) a running theme that markets are bad

No, I don't think markets per se are bad. I do think the extreme unquestioning "The market is king, all must bow to the mighty market" attitude Thatcherism introduced and adopted wholesale by New Labour is in large part to blame for the shit we're in now. There's a difference.

[Arriba]

it's always easy to pick fault when you aint in charge.not so easy to put it right when you are