To Defund or Not to Defund?

[RobertT]

And you are assuming that will make a difference and people wouldn’t just take advantage of perceived less robust law enforcement which would almost certainly be the case in the short term. You can’t curb human nature as much as people may try...

That was my initial reaction - my faith in humanity is pretty low if I am being honest.

On giving it more thought and doing some research though, I can be persuaded.  There are a couple of places that have taken some sort of version of this approach in the USA, Compton in Cali and another Camden in Jersey.  They have had some pretty positive results.  They disbanded the existing department and created new roles, including Police Officers.  That forced everyone to re-apply but with a new focus and an ability to get the right fit.

I actually think a more focused Police Force would be better at it's primary focus of protecting the community from crime.  But not if you don't have a very strategic plan to account for everything else that has fallen to them in the past 100 years to pick-up.

[RobertT]

Oh, and I think it would be the perfect time to review the Justice system as well.  There are plenty of examples over here of chucking people in prison for very minor offences, but in both Countries other examples of violent style crime that seems to get relatively low sentencing.  You also have massive under reporting and convictions in sexual assault crimes.

[pauld]

That was my initial reaction - my faith in humanity is pretty low if I am being honest.

On giving it more thought and doing some research though, I can be persuaded.  There are a couple of places that have taken some sort of version of this approach in the USA, Compton in Cali and another Camden in Jersey.  They have had some pretty positive results.  They disbanded the existing department and created new roles, including Police Officers.  That forced everyone to re-apply but with a new focus and an ability to get the right fit.

I actually think a more focused Police Force would be better at it's primary focus of protecting the community from crime.  But not if you don't have a very strategic plan to account for everything else that has fallen to them in the past 100 years to pick-up.

As I understand it, this is precisely what the "Defunding" moves are aiming for.

[horlock07]

Oh, and I think it would be the perfect time to review the Justice system as well.  There are plenty of examples over here of chucking people in prison for very minor offences, but in both Countries other examples of violent style crime that seems to get relatively low sentencing.  You also have massive under reporting and convictions in sexual assault crimes.

We have a similar problem over here where members of government have repeatedly started stepping into areas they really shouldn't be straying (Malthouse, Patel and the AG springing to mind immediately) It is not for politicians to dictate that individuals “face criminal prosecution”. A decision to prosecute is taken independently by the CPS or police.

Interesting exchange in the Commons earlier https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1270341055746117632?s=20

[RobertT]

Here is Camden:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html

A starting point rather than a Utopian vision of what could be I'd say.

I know some will say that much of what they have done could be achieved through changing policy, but the problem they, and other forces face, is the current culture, structure, approach and staff are years in the making.  Sometimes it's easier to just blow something up and start again.

[theakston2k]

When NYPD went on a "work to rule" in late 2014 early 2015 to show people how much they would be missed (in response to protests over one of the many other instances where a black man was killed by police) crime fell. So, no, it wouldn't "almost certainly be the case".

https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proactive-policing-crime-20170925-story.html

Funding the police to deal with mental health instead of having proper social care is, well, mental.

The studies relating to that are caveated stating they “cannot entirely rule out the effects of under-reporting” so not sure it is entirely reliable.

[Wobbly Bob]

Interesting to read that there are nearly 18,000 "police agencies" in the USA.
Must be a big variation in the quality of training and overall standards of policing.

[pauld]

The studies relating to that are caveated stating they “cannot entirely rule out the effects of under-reporting” so not sure it is entirely reliable.

The authors of the study were confident that it was

"The researchers ran the analysis under a couple other models, and the results still held. They examined whether crime underreporting could have biased the findings, and the results still held.

“While we cannot entirely rule out the effects of under-reporting,” the authors wrote, “our results show that crime complaints decreased, rather than increased, during a slowdown in proactive policing, contrary to deterrence theory.”"

You may also wish to read Rob T's post

[RobertT]

I'd love for this to be the sort of discussion where all "sides" could engage in whatever the best solutions would look like.  As I mentioned, the nominally law and order Right wing viewpoint of having more Bobbies on the Beat would dovetail in with a revised overall strategy for keeping communities safe.  Even in my youth, which wasn't close to Reg's, I remember the Community Police building in Cottingham Close (Freshbrook) and being able to pop in as a kid to talk to them, getting them to chase some kid who had tried to pinch my bike or being a little wary of doing anything low level in-case they were out and about.

I'd also think, for those on the Right, if you put in place all the funding for the non-Police elements, if and when people do need catching, you are probably starting to look at people who really might well need a heavy hand in the Justice system.  I've always looked at Jails oddly - why send anyone for a few months, what's the point?  However, someone commits a crime against the person serious enough to warrant a bit of punishment, make it worth our while to fund them being locked away for a bit.

Domestic Abuse - sure, you need the Police to commit the intervention and put someone in custody, but what good are they when it's mental?

[BambooToTheFuture]

I was surprised at the maturity level dipping in responses to this thread. It's quite clear the thread has been set up to have open discussion and not pointless replies like "fell asleep" or "didn't read".

Several go on about bringing conversation down to levels of "that FB Group", yet some of you have exercised exactly that type of value. It really shows how mature you are if you have to make the statement of "didn't read it lolz". Because that's really cool and productive...if you're about 14. Interesting.

Yes I'm with you RobT, it would be nice to see proper engagement on this thread and hear different solutions or experiences people have had from all sides.

[JBZ]

You have been told

[4D]

Do you talk to yourself in the mirror bambi?

[BambooToTheFuture]

Are you here to share your opinion on the thread that RobT started or just to make cheap remarks at me? If it's the latter, there are much better things to spend your time doing.

[Flashheart]

I only posted my gif because I liked it. Looks as though I got bonus bites on an unbaited hook.

Happy days.

[horlock07]

Right wing viewpoint of having more Bobbies on the Beat would dovetail in with a revised overall strategy for keeping communities safe.  Even in my youth, which wasn't close to Reg's, I remember the Community Police building in Cottingham Close (Freshbrook) and being able to pop in as a kid to talk to them, getting them to chase some kid who had tried to pinch my bike or being a little wary of doing anything low level in-case they were out and about.

This got me thinking last night, however as I was reading it on my phone it wasn't that easy to research.

This idea of historically there being loads more police officers is something of a myth, the linked shows that in 1946 (probably a date at which the oldest members of society can realistically remember) there were 52k (all figures England and Wales) this rose to c.114k when Thatcher was in during 1980 (So the rise occurred under governments of both colours). https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/382711/response/935388/attach/html/3/FOI%2042515%20M%20Ashby%20table.xls.html

From 1980 this was fairly static until around 2000 (so was generally lower or at least on par with present during my and I suspect many others on here's childhoods) when it rather jumped, was then stable from 2005-2010 and then has dropped back to broadly 2000 numbers. https://fullfact.org/crime/police-numbers/

So for the lifetime of the majority there has not been some kind of utopia of more bobbies unless one counts, somewhat bizarrely the New Labour period, it also rather challenges the accepted idea that a Tory Government is one of law and order.