To Defund or Not to Defund?

[RobertT]

I know this will go off topic pretty quickly with people unable to resists a bit of name calling and not willing to debate without getting offended, but I will give it a go as we'll end-up with about four threads in total soon!

I have to say I was pretty ignorant of the concept when I first read about this subject late last week, but it has started to get me thinking.  We accept the need for a Police Force almost without question, more so than even having an NHS in the UK.  The system we have in place today is still quite new, but some form of law and order has been in place for centuries.  Has it simply become an over blown catch all for BAD things in society though?

Consider some of the reasons the Police would get involved in today - homeless people, mental health related incidents, victim support and so on.  It does seem like there could and should be better ways of breaking down the Monolith that now exists with more targeted approaches.  So not removing the funding, simply re-distributing it and spending it in more specialised and strategic ways.  I imagine, due to human nature, some form of Law and Order role has to exist (my own personal assumption as someone who doesn't subscribe to the Anarchist approach), but surely it must be smaller than it has become, while we grow areas such as Social Care, Mental Health funding, Drug Abuse, Domestic Abuse and so on.

Something basic like legalising Marijuana - removes the need to Police it.  Targeted work, with proper funding, on breaking drug dependency has known impact on other petty crimes.

On top of that, why on earth would we expect the Police Force to recruit super humans able to deal with all these types of situations?  The aim of every Police Officer should be to find ways of making themselves redundant - Utopia is not needing them in the first place.  We won't get there, but a smaller more focused and well trained Police Force could supplement a wider range of activities all managed under the same Umbrella.

Anyway - my views are pretty fluid on this subject as I take some time to research - can we debate the options without getting stuck shouting about Anarchy or Police States?

[4D]

We need Robocop 

[BambooToTheFuture]

From the little I have read and looked into so far, as well as the article posted on the politics thread, I do think a different approach is required. I mirror your thoughts that the modern police officer has a multitude of roles they are expected to be. Each one, they are also expected to perform at a very high standard, continually under a watchful/monitored eye from all areas of society. It simply is far too much to expect of them.

I only know about 5 people personally who are in the constabulary today, in various roles; three of them as PCs. I know that they find their job increasingly harder to do (just in general) and they have admitted that they aren't qualified to do all that is asked/expected of them. That is only a very small model so it would be interesting to see what others thoughts/conversations with officers they know or indeed those who are officers themselves.

We also know that in the UK our public services have faced continued cuts, whilst still being asked to perform their multitude of expected duties to the same level. One thing I have noticed and I can't speak for all but even amongst these continued cuts, the P&CC (Police & Crime Commisioner) costing on my council tax bill has increased year on year  Now that money may go somewhere else but my thinking is that it must end up used by the "police" somewhere along the lines. It's slightly away from topic I know but it's an observation I find strange considering the police have faced cuts. Is it purely to substitute the cuts from central government and so is topped up via the local authority?

I definitely believe that much more needs to be spent in areas regarding mental health and trained specialists in de-escalation. This shouldn't be another "skill" that the police have to fully understand.

There is no harm in having knowledge and training but I have witnessed first hand scenarios where the police have been completely out of their depth regarding such situations. They did not know how to talk to the individual whereby they were not further agitated/distressed. In all instances the officer became an agitator. I personally had to step between an officer and the individual to then explain on behalf of the person with mental health issues, that they indeed are registered as a mental health outpatient. The response from that particular officer was a disappointing one. It seemed they hadn't received any de-escalation training. The three core values of "Listen, Hear, Understand" were vacant.

Again, this actually isn't a dig when we look at it from the outside, it highlights the very issues where an officer is expected to assess that (and many more) scenario, take action professionally and understand everything that is going on in that very moment. I don't think the modern officer is equipped with the resources or capacity to do so at the highest level and just getting out a baton is no longer the kind of treatment that is acceptable today when concerning scenarios regarding mental health. Whereas if there were highly trained specialists (similar to say a crisis team) that could be sent to that situation then the police could concentrate on other, some may say, more important issues (for them).

I'm not qualified enough to come up with a solution (I hear the TEFers scoff) and the comments above are only from my own limited experiences. But they are real experiences nonetheless and they do highlight misgivings as far as I'm concerned. I don't know how we go about or where we start implementing changes to our constabulary for the better all round. The mental health element is only one of many factors where changes could/should happen but I'd be interested to hear others experiences, either as members of public or officers (esp. existing ones). Maybe even in our little TEF bubble here, we can correlate the experiences and differences to understand better where those changes might need to be targeted and actioned?

I certainly agree with Rob that we should be able to discuss and debate this without it becoming heavily cyclical or destructive.

Bear in mind, I've written this at 2.15am so if there are some inconsistencies (me? no way, shock) then I'm putting my hands up and owning those while it's fresh in the mind. Plus i can't be jacked to edit it.

As for Robocop. I prefer Robocod (yep Amiga, James Pond days, Aquatic Games wasn't bad too)

[suttonred]

I feel asleep after the first 2 words

[Richie Wellen-Dowd]

It's an interesting idea, it reminds me of how funding was used in UK doctor's surgeries to treat addicts. Doctors didn't have the skills or knowledge to really help people, and in many cases were manipulated into giving out large prescriptions for valium or letting people take methadone home who shouldn't have been allowed. They employed drug workers to help with prescriptions, harm reduction etc.

Unfortunately, most people wouldn't read beyond the name, and it's a terrible name. In some ways now is the best time to pursue discourse on this, but in other ways this is the worst time. It needs taking back to the drawing board until after November, and not to become a further issue for the left to tear itself apart over.

[jayohaitchenn]

It's definitely an interesting idea, but there is a huge flaw. Like primary care settings in the NHS, the police are the last line of defence in public safety. Hence, when mental health services are slashed, people with issues end up either in a cell or in A&E.

So yes, we could defund the police, but we really ought to be re-funding the other essential services first.

[tans]

I feel asleep after the first 2 words

Me too

[Batch]

Increase funding. HTH.

you can set the specialists departments under why benner you like, police, welfare, whatever. it doesn't really matter

But it's more money needed to do so

[Flashheart]

[horlock07]

It's definitely an interesting idea, but there is a huge flaw. Like primary care settings in the NHS, the police are the last line of defence in public safety. Hence, when mental health services are slashed, people with issues end up either in a cell or in A&E.

So yes, we could defund the police, but we really ought to be re-funding the other essential services first.

On a similar vein this appeared on Twitter which makes a point that many have overlooked...



As for the general thrust of this thread, as Trump seems to be depending more on unidentified militias in DC and possibly other locations, he is voluntarily eroding the US military/police monopoly on armed force - all students of Weimar understand where that leads.

[Peter Venkman]

I thought you misspelt defend and hoped it would be a thread about past defenders!

[theakston2k]

Problem is if you give people an inch they will take a mile, people aren’t suddenly going to be become model citizens.

[pauld]

It's definitely an interesting idea, but there is a huge flaw. Like primary care settings in the NHS, the police are the last line of defence in public safety. Hence, when mental health services are slashed, people with issues end up either in a cell or in A&E.

So yes, we could defund the police, but we really ought to be re-funding the other essential services first.

That's exactly what defunding in the US is about. Taking money from police forces and putting it into education, mental health, social care where it should have been spent in the first place.

[Arriba]

Problem is if you give people an inch they will take a mile, people aren’t suddenly going to be become model citizens.

Good point. The lockdown here has proven that.

[pauld]

Problem is if you give people an inch they will take a mile, people aren’t suddenly going to be become model citizens.

The suggestion of defunding in the US is not to simply abolish the police but to remove funding that has been put into the police force to perform tasks they're not really best equipped to do. Like maintaining order in schools or dealing with the mentally ill. The "defunding" proposal is to put that funding back where it should have been in the first place, schools, mental health, social care etc and let the police get on with the core policing job that they're good at. So it's not a question of "giving people an inch", it's more about not treating everything as public order problem.