Coronavirus

[pauld]

So what about all the other countries that now have rising cases like Germany, France etc. The same thing is happening everywhere, the self proclaimed 'experts' and advisors are making it up on the go just as much as the government are. You can't just follow the scientific advice, they may know their profession but there are dozens of other factors that have to be taken into account before decisions get made. If we just followed the scientific advice we'd be locked down until a vaccine is developed and distributed, I still find it mind boggling that some people actually would support that approach.

Yeah fucking scientists and experts what do they know? Wankers

[theakston2k]

Yeah fucking scientists and experts what do they know? Wankers

Experts in their field, no one is an expert across every discipline which is why balanced decisions need to be made taking into account factors beside COVID. Anyway back on point that report says between 8% and 17% of new clusters were caused by the scheme so you could flip it on its head and say the majority of the increase is nothing to do with it.

[4D]

Not up to footballers to provide kids meals

No, it's the parents responsibility.

[Flashheart]

The same thing is happening everywhere, the self proclaimed 'experts'

I think we've been here before.

Nowhere have I seen the 'self-proclaimed'* experts claim that doing X, Y, or Z will eliminate the virus. Quite the opposite. I have always seen them say it is just a measure to help manage it in the short-medium term and that we will need to remain vigilant.

That is has returned does not mean they were wrong. On the contrary --- they were fucking right. From day 1 they have been banging on and on about second waves. Not once have I seen them claim it won't happen if we lockdown. Not once.

Lockdowns probably have been effective in helping to MANAGE it. They have probably been effective in flattening the curve to help medical services cope as well as possible. It's increasing in Europe after following advice? Show us where the experts have said there won't be second waves. They haven't!

Is it good now? of course not. Has the expert advice made it go away? Of course not. Has the medical advice helped to manage the situation as well as possible, potentially saving rather a lot of lives in the process - YES. Yes it probably has.

You just seem intent on straw-manning their position to make out they are wrong but if you acknowledge what they are ACTUALLY saying, instead of your apparent reinterpretation of what they are saying then they have been right all along. Things are going according to how they said they would from square one. Their forecasts are spot on. They said there would likely be a second wave. That is happening - they were right.

*
And 'self-proclaimed' These guys are not 'self-proclaimed' experts. They have degrees and all sorts of certificates along with a shit ton of experience that shows they ARE experts, as proclaimed by their qualifications, not themselves. Calling them 'self-proclaimed' just seems like a cheap effort at trying to belittle them.

[Flashheart]

No, it's the parents responsibility.

And what if the parent's can't feed them?

Put the Daily Mail down, man, It's not good for you.

[4D]

And what if the parent's can't feed them?

Put the Daily Mail down, man, It's not good for you.

Food bank?

[Flashheart]

Food bank?

Do you think that hungry people won't already be using the foodbank as much as they are able?

Do you think people willingly let their kids go hungry because they can't be bothered to pop down the food bank and get some grub?

Don't answer that. I'm not sure I want to know the answer.

[Flashheart]

And food banks are not a source of free-flowing food whenever you want something to eat. There are limitations on how often you can use one. Which is often not enough.

Pesky facts: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/help-if-on-a-low-income/using-a-food-bank/

[theakston2k]

I think we've been here before.

Nowhere have I seen the 'self-proclaimed'* experts claim that doing X, Y, or Z will eliminate the virus. Quite the opposite. I have always seen them say it is just a measure to help manage it in the short-medium term and that we will need to remain vigilant.

That is has returned does not mean they were wrong. On the contrary --- they were fucking right. From day 1 they have been banging on and on about second waves. Not once have I seen them claim it won't happen if we lockdown. Not once.

Lockdowns probably have been effective in helping to MANAGE it. They have probably been effective in flattening the curve to help medical services cope as well as possible. It's increasing in Europe after following advice? Show us where the experts have said there won't be second waves. They haven't!

Is it good now? of course not. Has the expert advice made it go away? Of course not. Has the medical advice helped to manage the situation as well as possible, potentially saving rather a lot of lives in the process - YES. Yes it probably has.

You just seem intent on straw-manning their position to make out they are wrong but if you acknowledge what they are ACTUALLY saying, instead of your apparent reinterpretation of what they are saying then they have been right all along. Things are going according to how they said they would from square one. Their forecasts are spot on. They said there would likely be a second wave. That is happening - they were right.

*
And 'self-proclaimed' These guys are not 'self-proclaimed' experts. They have degrees and all sorts of certificates along with a shit ton of experience that shows they ARE experts, as proclaimed by their qualifications, not themselves. Calling them 'self-proclaimed' just seems like a cheap effort at trying to belittle them.

No my issue is the constant blame game that is constantly pedalled out like people could foresee all the issues. Just this week the IMF for example have praised the governments response to virus and said “one of the best examples of coordinated action globally” so there are clearly differing view points.  COVID isn't the only game in town and no single expert no matter how many degrees is capable of making a balanced decision over what should be done, a lot of scientists can't even agree on what the best approach is! A virologist will tell you how to eliminate a virus, but they won't tell you the knock on consequences that following that advice will cause to the economy, mental health etc. At every decision making point some experts advice will get ignored as it needs to be, going back and cherry picking the ignored advice to allow fingers to be pointed is helpful to no one.

[4D]

There must be a lot of hungry adults out there then, I certainly would go hungry before my kids. Food banks are a good idea, but like with most things they're open to abuse.

[RobertT]

I don't see why people struggle with this.

If you don't see another human being for the rest of your life, even if you have Covid, you won't pass it on.  If you don't have Covid, you are very unlikely to get it.  Simple.

The Countries that have, so far, done well have clamped down early and put very restrictive practices in place as soon as a threat of an outbreak occurred.  Following that basic principle - don't let the virus get another host.  That means, with low early infection numbers, you lockdown within several contacts of the individual.  You prevent import of new cases (as an open borders kind of guy, I have to accept this comes by way of locking down travel in and out of a region - doesn't have to be a Country, can be smaller).  That requires rapid and expansive contact tracing.

If that is not successful, or you don't really try, the next step is testing more widely and trying again.

If that fails, you reach a point of needing to restrict interactions - up to an including lockdown.  The aim remains the same - stop the opportunity for a host interacting with a non-host.

It's not really that tricky to understand, is it?

So it's entirely likely that any opening of interactions is going to increase spread if you failed at the previous step to properly get on top of it.  Most Western cultures have accepted that they can't be arsed with all that, so it became a game of getting just enough on top of it to stop Healthcare facilities from being over burdened.  The UK is not alone in that.

[Flashheart]

No my issue is the constant blame game that is constantly pedalled out like people could foresee all the issues.

But issues were forseen and the government was advised accordingly, only for them to ignore it.

So yes, they are to blame.

Not only that, but they CONTINUE to ignore advice.

[RobertT]

There must be a lot of hungry adults out there then, I certainly would go hungry before my kids. Food banks are a good idea, but like with most things they're open to abuse.

Um, I dare you to find people, in numbers, who go about abusing Food Banks - who the fuck would want to go around grabbing Smart Price tinned Stew?  Luckily never had to use one, I imagine it would be a humbling experience to have to.

[Flashheart]

But issues were forseen and the government was advised accordingly, only for them to ignore it.

So yes, they are to blame.

Not only that, but they CONTINUE to ignore advice.

And you'll struggle to convince people you have a reasonable approach to the advisors when you go calling them self proclaimed 'experts'. That kind of language really does not help your case.

[RobertT]

But issues were forseen and the government was advised accordingly, only for them to ignore it.

So yes, they are to blame.

Not only that, but they CONTINUE to ignore advice.

And given that a primary function of a Government is to protect it's citizens, then managing a Public Health crises is something that could and should be held up for criticism - how else do we improve?

Has the UK Govt done a good job? doesn't look like it, are they alone, hell no.  Thus far, the Western world is doing a sterling job of showing what not to do in a Pandemic.