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Author Topic: The world Cup Russia 2018 Thread  (Read 200683 times)
BambooToTheFuture

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« Reply #720 on: Sunday, July 1, 2018, 23:56:17 »

Messi at international level-
2016 lost Copa America final on pens
2015 lost Copa America final on pens
2014 lost World Cup final extra time goal
2011 lost Copa America 1/4 final on pens
2010 lost World Cup 1/4 final
2007 lost Copa America final
2006 lost World Cup 1/4 final on pens

Yes winning is important and ultimately is what counts but its hard to judge a player/team failure on penalty shootout success. A penalty kick from one of his team mates is what separates him and Ronaldo on international trophies

Similarly England may not have had success in 50+ years but its only been a penalty failure that has stopped us on so many occasions. (or a Ronaldinho fluke/ sol campbell disallowed goal, petulant red cards) Excuses? yes. but you do need some luck and we are overdue some

Not sure if it will be England but i think an outsider could get the job done this year.    

I don't discredit anything you are saying there. Yes England have been for want of a better word 'butthurt' for such a long time now. We may be bias, and it seems like we have had decisions or other factors go against us. So much so, it's been the norm. Let's take a wincing look;

1970 - A massive ploy to usettle the World Champions as the England Captain Bobby Moore is arrested for robbing jewels! That definitely didn't help preparations. Later on Banks got food poisoning before a repeat of the Final vs Die Mannschaft. As champions of anything, you're always going to be up against it and scrutinised. Banks still was a cut above, the World was introduced to Pele. A surprising Q-F finish amongst all the drama.

1974 - Disaster. We fail to qualify. The World understands Johan Cruyff is the real deal. West Germany beat Holland in the final, with an inspired performance by Vogts. I believe this is where the main Deutsche/Dutch rivalry grew much stronger. England make the final...via ref Jack Taylor. No excuses.

1978 - Failed to qualify again. The 70s was a write off in English National team terms. Was this not one of the craziest World Cups though? The head of the World Cup committee assassinated, the brilliance of Cruyff denied as he refused to take part. All this before a ball was kicked. No doubt the Argentinians were great and the Dutch, without Cruyff were equally as good. They however were becoming the nearly men on the world stage. Again, no excuses England.

1982 - A rather lacklustre return to the world stage after a 12 year hiatus (did we really party too much after winning it in 66?), but a return nonetheless. A fantastic Brazil side, some match fixing controversy with W.G and Austria, and an Italian side that showed some true defensive class. Stale for England, nothing in the way of drama, just happy to be back.

1986 - England are back! With a squad that seems capable of winning the damn thing after 20 years of nothing at all. We all know how this should've been. The cheating little Argentinian prick. We can debate about VAR, we can debate if he would've scored his second (which was awesome) had the first stood but this was to be the start of our so called "run of drama". A World Cup we likely deserved to go on and win but for the "Hand of God". Drama.

1990 - Another strong World Cup performance. Blood, bandages galore, piss ups, fights, tears. Yes this was a World Cup the Sun and the rest of the "red tops" just couldn't get enough of. Gazza gets pissed, we win. Gazza gets a 2nd yellow, cries out all the alcohol, sobers up. We go out. Lose to Germany on penalties. We're becoming like the Dutch, except instead of weed, we're just wankered on cheap lager the whole time. Absolute drama.

1994 - Failed to qualify. Still literally hungover by the German defeat. Diana Ross announces her immense power and footballing ability in probably a World Cup opening ceremony that was more memorable than the World Cup itself. Nods to Andy "I'm Irish Honest" Townsend and Jack Charlton's ever existing last strands of combover! No excuses England.

1998 - A revived England, who become the nearly men again as the hosts of Euro 96 (penalties again). A growing team with exceptional qualities, a strong midfield. The world only gets a glimpse of the sublime Michael Owen. Full of drama, Beckham's red, faith healing and Gazza's omission. Drama indeed. Lose on penalties at a tournament for the third time in a row. Only this time it's in the 2nd Round. A team worthy of going far. A pattern emerges.

2002 - Besieged with injuries beforehand but still a squad looking like it could go all the way in  distinctly average world cup. We only just qualified thanks to a late Beckham goal. Him at his best. Again drama came though in the Q-F, an average Brazil who were great going forward (better than currently) but terrible when attacked. England did attack but Rivaldo played jester and got away with it. Ronaldinho scores a fluke as Seaman gets a flashback of Nayim in the European Cup. Another chance gone begging. We were better than that but history will say; England Q-F.

2006 - Another team capable of doing something special. It clicked less this time but it still had it's drama. The Portuguese Winker causing problems and Rooney sent off. Out on penalties - Again. Definite drama, beginning to think these boys are cursed.

2010 - Ahh the Vuvuzela Cup, and end of an era for several of these nearly players. Quite befitting that the drama here surrounding more injuries and Frank Lampard's "goal that never stood". How it could have been quite so different. I was at Glastonbury that year and appeared on Sky Sports "around the grounds" feature at FT. The live pieces they do but during the World Cup they go to places like "The Dog & Duck, High Wycombe, Trafalgar Square, and Glasto". A disappointing World Cup but we were seemingly afraid to win.

2014 - Probably the worst showing at a World Cup. Yes the golden bunch were starting to look tired/disinterested. Question marks over Wayne Rooney's commitment. It wasn't all bad, there were signs of youngsters coming through but it was a World Cup too early. No real drama we were just shit. We're they as good as we thought? or did they massively underachieve? Something has to change but it didn't and whatever dank smell filled the air in Brazil was left hanging in 2016.

So a good chunk of drama but probably not as much as we like to think. A good chunk of just not being good enough or too complacent. It begs the question, if VAR had been available/in use since 1966, do you think we may have won a some more World Cups?

Sorry, I've fucking rambled. Back to Messi. I guess history will say he has yet to win a trophy at International level. It is harsh but in 20 years, he will just be considered as a nearly man. Shameful but true.
« Last Edit: Monday, July 2, 2018, 00:01:51 by bamboonoshoe » Logged


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« Reply #721 on: Monday, July 2, 2018, 07:11:22 »

1982 - A rather lacklustre return to the world stage after a 12 year hiatus (did we really party too much after winning it in 66?), but a return nonetheless. A fantastic Brazil side, some match fixing controversy with W.G and Austria, and an Italian side that showed some true defensive class. Stale for England, nothing in the way of drama, just happy to be back.
Maybe it was because it was the first World Cup I actually watched England take part in and knew what was going on and I was beside myself with excitement but I would say '82 was anything but lacklustre. A goal up against France after 30 seconds of the first game, maximum points from the group stages and eliminated from a mini-group of death where we more than held our own against West Germany and Keegan missed a sitter against the hosts Spain which would have put us through and them out if it had gone in. We went home undefeated with one goal conceded in 5 games. Ultimately another failure, lot's of 'what ifs', same old England bla, bla, bla...Yes... but lacklustre? No...that is incorrect.
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jayohaitchenn
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« Reply #722 on: Monday, July 2, 2018, 08:25:39 »

Hardly surprising given Bamboo wasn't even alive then.
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« Reply #723 on: Monday, July 2, 2018, 08:26:22 »

In fairness to Mr Keegan, his chance if converted wouldn't have put us through as we needed to win 2-0 in the Spain game to progress ahead of Germany.
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #724 on: Monday, July 2, 2018, 08:30:14 »

  I can just about remember back to 58.  The one consistent in English football in this time is the uselessness of the FA. 

  Now we're not alone in this, and it is partly to do with history, but we should have done much better.... the Dutch for example have 3 finals, and won a Euro.

 Doing much better doesn't mean winning every event, but a few more finals, maybe another win and the odd Euro.

 When the FA do get something right, it's usually as a result of a cock up somewhere and then a reaction, usually too late to events.

 
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pauld
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« Reply #725 on: Monday, July 2, 2018, 09:02:31 »

If we're talking about sides being consistently undermined by a shambolic FA, from what I can gather that definitely applies to Argentina over the past couple of decades. Which perhaps puts Messi's international record in a slightly kinder light - he's not just been carrying the team, he's been carrying the whole damn structure too.
We're becoming like the Dutch, except instead of weed, we're just wankered on cheap lager the whole time.
sums up the 80s perfectly!
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horlock07

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« Reply #726 on: Monday, July 2, 2018, 09:17:20 »

Fuck sake

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44676893
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pauld
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« Reply #727 on: Monday, July 2, 2018, 09:21:35 »

Indeed. Even worse, the route to the final is causing havoc with my youngest's football schedule - training cancelled tomorrow, he's supposed to be in a tournament on Sat afternoon which will likely be cancelled (or at least his team will likely withdraw) if we win tomorrow, then if we win on Saturday, training for his other team is on Wed evening so that would also be cancelled next week so folks can watch the semi. He's fuming. I've reassured him it's England so he doesn't need to worry Smiley
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horlock07

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« Reply #728 on: Monday, July 2, 2018, 09:23:48 »

If we're talking about sides being consistently undermined by a shambolic FA, from what I can gather that definitely applies to Argentina over the past couple of decades. Which perhaps puts Messi's international record in a slightly kinder light - he's not just been carrying the team, he's been carrying the whole damn structure too.:

The big difference in this tournament if you watched the two teams is that Portugal give the ball to Ronaldo but then at least provide support and an outlet if required until he gets the opportunity to fall over.

Argentina just give it to Messi and then all stand fucking still and expect him to do something with it, not moving to create space nor actually getting into the box or anything - they went out as 9 of the outfield team were essentially staic.

In the whole GOAT bullshit, its really irrelevant, although in the bigger picture Messi got over 50% more assists than Ronaldo last year (and didn't appeal against his own team being awarded a penalty!) and seems a slightly less objectionable wanker!
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« Reply #729 on: Monday, July 2, 2018, 09:27:12 »

The big difference in this tournament if you watched the two teams is that Portugal give the ball to Ronaldo but then at least provide support and an outlet if required until he gets the opportunity to fall over.

Argentina just give it to Messi and then all stand fucking still and expect him to do something with it, not moving to create space nor actually getting into the box or anything - they went out as 9 of the outfield team were essentially staic.
Don't disagree, but again doesn't that just all the more burnish the argument that Messi is trying to carry the whole team, including the management, as they all stand and watch and say "Go on then, do something brilliant, we haven't got a clue"?
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horlock07

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« Reply #730 on: Monday, July 2, 2018, 09:37:49 »

Don't disagree, but again doesn't that just all the more burnish the argument that Messi is trying to carry the whole team, including the management, as they all stand and watch and say "Go on then, do something brilliant, we haven't got a clue"?

Exactamundo my scouse friend.....
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« Reply #731 on: Monday, July 2, 2018, 09:43:57 »

Exactamundo my scouse friend.....
Ooo you calling scouse? Eh? eh? Outside, car park, if I'm not there in 5 minutes start without me. Calm down, calm down Smiley
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« Reply #732 on: Monday, July 2, 2018, 10:01:51 »

Hardly surprising given Bamboo wasn't even alive then.
As I suspected - So he wouldn't know whether it was lacklustre or not...unless he *gasp* copied and pasted  Huh?

In fairness to Mr Keegan, his chance if converted wouldn't have put us through as we needed to win 2-0 in the Spain game to progress ahead of Germany.
Yes indeed - well remembered, my bad. The point stands though, no one who was actually there at the time I believe would have described England's effort as 'lacklustre'.
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« Reply #733 on: Monday, July 2, 2018, 10:09:06 »

78 was the first one I remember really. The final constantly being replayed on the subbuteo pitch, with Luque, and Rep always scoring.. 82 we were pretty decent. But I'd moved from Subbuteo to lager and half cut young ladies by then, so the memories arent quite so lucid.
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« Reply #734 on: Monday, July 2, 2018, 10:34:39 »

I had the World Cup 1978 sticker album, Archie Gemmil springs to mind
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