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Author Topic: This spy malarkey.  (Read 18856 times)
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Thingie


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« Reply #120 on: Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 12:05:46 »

Remember when Corbyn was ridiculed for daring to question the evidence ...

That said, it is just the manufacturing origin of the agent that can't be proven by examining the agent. You'd think we'd have other sources of proof it was Russian state sponsored.

Then I remembered the war over the WMDs...
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horlock07


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« Reply #121 on: Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 12:10:52 »

I do fear that a lot of Countries have taken Johnsons word for it and acted in good faith accordingly - silly bastards I know....

Just thank god we are not about to step out into the world solo to try and trade on our good name and trustworthiness as a nation......
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« Reply #122 on: Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 12:13:59 »

Probably a daft question but how are you supposed to trace who made it?
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« Reply #123 on: Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 12:17:47 »

Probably a daft question but how are you supposed to trace who made it?

No idea, way above my paygrade. The fact that despite the Governments protestations regarding source, the recipe for it can be found in textbooks and it could be made in small yet sufficient amounts in a University level laboratory suggests its could be a a very large suspect list.

To follow recent trends I suspect Jeremy Corbyn made it!
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RedRag


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« Reply #124 on: Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 13:11:40 »

To follow recent trends I suspect Jeremy Corbyn made it!
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« Reply #125 on: Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 15:46:23 »

It doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have sufficient evidence. They could have pieced together the information from Porton Down with other intelligence to come to a solid conclusion.

Which begs the question: Why did Boris lie? Why the need to embellish, or even completely fabricate, the discussion with PD. Why not just tell the 'truth'?
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horlock07


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« Reply #126 on: Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 16:24:59 »

It doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have sufficient evidence. They could have pieced together the information from Porton Down with other intelligence to come to a solid conclusion.

Which begs the question: Why did Boris lie? Why the need to embellish, or even completely fabricate, the discussion with PD. Why not just tell the 'truth'?

I assume you are taking the piss, as recent events have proven Johnson would not know the truth if it walked up to him and clattered him squarely in the scrotum.....
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RedRag


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« Reply #127 on: Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 18:12:30 »

It doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have sufficient evidence. They could have pieced together the information from Porton Down with other intelligence to come to a solid conclusion.

Which begs the question: Why did Boris lie? Why the need to embellish, or even completely fabricate, the discussion with PD. Why not just tell the 'truth'?
If the DG of the BBC studies recent history and quite likes his job, he will not be breaking any stories about Boris "sexing up" the evidence.  

I have to say the likely truth of the Iraqi WMD "sexing up" claim was apparent to me at the time - as a result of the available evidence that the UK chose to exclude.

Let's at least hope that our distrust of Russia does turn out to be well founded, unlike the WMD piffle, as the UK's reputation abroad will be severely diminished at a time that it needs trust from its friends.

Will it now be down to either the head of the Porton Down Defence and Technology Lab or Boris Johnson to resign over lying - or will we get some "miracle mangling" of the English Language to show Boris didn't lie?

Not exactly holding my breath but not yet switching to RT (Russia Today) for my TV updates.

« Last Edit: Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 18:16:56 by RedRag » Logged
adje


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« Reply #128 on: Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 18:53:55 »

Might get the old "truth is not in the national interest"
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pauld


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« Reply #129 on: Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 19:21:15 »

It doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have sufficient evidence. They could have pieced together the information from Porton Down with other intelligence to come to a solid conclusion.

Which begs the question: Why did Boris lie? Why the need to embellish, or even completely fabricate, the discussion with PD. Why not just tell the 'truth'?
Because he can't help himself, he's like Trump, he lies even when he doesn't need to. And, like Trump, is too lazy to listen properly to his briefings or read his briefing notes. He'll have just heard "Yada yada Russia" and then decided on whatever narrative suited him. The thing is as you say, there almost certainly is the evidence to show the Russians did it, just not all from Porton Down but Johnson's lazy incompetence and habitual lying has now undermined our case to make it look like another dodgy dossier again. Yet more reasons why the fuckwit shouldn't be employed in any more responsible capacity than fetching the office tea (and even then don't trust the fucker with the kitty, his continued employment in one of the great offices of state is a signal demonstration to the world of our government's weakness and by extension our weakness as a country. He is a genuine threat to our national security
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horlock07


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« Reply #130 on: Friday, April 13, 2018, 13:18:17 »

What still doesn't add is if the agent was administered to the victims via the door handle, if Novichok is as deadly as people say how come they managed to leave the house, wander into town, go and have something to eat, then go for a pint and then collapse simultaneously onto a park bench a decent period after the nerve agent was administered?

Despite what the government and BBC are so desperately trying to spin, OPCW have not supported the governments position, they have merely agreed that the agent is Novichok and made no comment at all on source, although why it took the UK 15 days to ask them to get involved raises even more questions?
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bamboonoshoe


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« Reply #131 on: Friday, April 13, 2018, 18:23:28 »

What still doesn't add is if the agent was administered to the victims via the door handle, if Novichok is as deadly as people say how come they managed to leave the house, wander into town, go and have something to eat, then go for a pint and then collapse simultaneously onto a park bench a decent period after the nerve agent was administered?

Despite what the government and BBC are so desperately trying to spin, OPCW have not supported the governments position, they have merely agreed that the agent is Novichok and made no comment at all on source, although why it took the UK 15 days to ask them to get involved raises even more questions?

Not saying a know an awful lot before anyone shoots me down. I did realise that the agent used could be Novichok-5 and mentioned also much before it was released in the media. Well done me  Roll Eyes The reason I came to this conclusion was because of the time it took for them to start feeling unwell. It's not a particulate agent which would affect the body instantly, and certainly not via the method being claimed (if a version had been injected or forcibly applied with direct entry to the skin, or other routes of entry then of course a quicker contamination would have been achieved). I suppose an easy way of explaining this would be via "cow pat" theory.

For e.g they both touch the handle (the cow pat) and carry a small amount onto their own hands (direct contact), they touch their jacket, trousers, face (further direct contact) and so on, At this point all they will be doing is spreading the 'cowpat' but not making any instant harm. The skin is a pretty good repellent unless there is a route of entry (a shaving cut, an open spot or other minor open wound). The unknowing danger that the stuff is now everywhere, creating a likelihood of ingestion even higher. It's quite possible that the ingestion didn't happen until they went and had a pint/ate lunch. It would also support them both becoming more increasingly unwell at a similar rate. So although they are externally contaminated it would be reasonable to suggest that it was sometime before they became internally contaminated.

As I understand, Novichok-5 and other NAs are largely internal hazards, other complex ones can be designed to burn/irritate skin in order to gain a route of entry. N-5 would likely have been identified by using a Mass Spectrometer (yes it is a thing), I've used these myself in the past, not for N-5 but they are the go to equipment for detailed structure elucidation. I would guess most people wouldn't necessarily understand, initially how NA, CA, and RA substances affect the body. Having that knowledge is probably more helpful in understanding how they came to become unwell. Let's face it, it's not something that many of us will have in our vicinity on a daily basis.

Sorry that's a little long winded. I don't know everything about NAs but I do have enough in my loaf to figure out how they work and to have narrowed it down to a particular group within the NA table. In short, it's not when they got contaminated but when the agent gained a route of entry to the body.
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horlock07


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« Reply #132 on: Saturday, April 14, 2018, 07:23:45 »

Not saying a know an awful lot before anyone shoots me down. I did realise that the agent used could be Novichok-5 and mentioned also much before it was released in the media. Well done me  Roll Eyes The reason I came to this conclusion was because of the time it took for them to start feeling unwell. It's not a particulate agent which would affect the body instantly, and certainly not via the method being claimed (if a version had been injected or forcibly applied with direct entry to the skin, or other routes of entry then of course a quicker contamination would have been achieved). I suppose an easy way of explaining this would be via "cow pat" theory.

For e.g they both touch the handle (the cow pat) and carry a small amount onto their own hands (direct contact), they touch their jacket, trousers, face (further direct contact) and so on, At this point all they will be doing is spreading the 'cowpat' but not making any instant harm. The skin is a pretty good repellent unless there is a route of entry (a shaving cut, an open spot or other minor open wound). The unknowing danger that the stuff is now everywhere, creating a likelihood of ingestion even higher. It's quite possible that the ingestion didn't happen until they went and had a pint/ate lunch. It would also support them both becoming more increasingly unwell at a similar rate. So although they are externally contaminated it would be reasonable to suggest that it was sometime before they became internally contaminated.

As I understand, Novichok-5 and other NAs are largely internal hazards, other complex ones can be designed to burn/irritate skin in order to gain a route of entry. N-5 would likely have been identified by using a Mass Spectrometer (yes it is a thing), I've used these myself in the past, not for N-5 but they are the go to equipment for detailed structure elucidation. I would guess most people wouldn't necessarily understand, initially how NA, CA, and RA substances affect the body. Having that knowledge is probably more helpful in understanding how they came to become unwell. Let's face it, it's not something that many of us will have in our vicinity on a daily basis.

Sorry that's a little long winded. I don't know everything about NAs but I do have enough in my loaf to figure out how they work and to have narrowed it down to a particular group within the NA table. In short, it's not when they got contaminated but when the agent gained a route of entry to the body.
Ok, but doesn't it seem incredibly coincidental that two people who from their photos have extremely different body masses are affected at exactly the same time?
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adje


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« Reply #133 on: Saturday, April 14, 2018, 09:42:05 »

Theres only one question from me.If they wanted them dead,why aren't they?
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« Reply #134 on: Saturday, April 14, 2018, 13:48:00 »

Ok, but doesn't it seem incredibly coincidental that two people who from their photos have extremely different body masses are affected at exactly the same time?

I can see a logic there if both were of similar age and health. YS may have a much better immune system but smaller body mass. Her body may have fought it a lot longer, before the NA managed to permanently open all her secretory, salivary, and merocrine glands (and much more). Whereas SS could have a weaker immune system but larger body mass, and so on. This could correlate to them falling unwell at roughly the same time. That being said, as previously mentioned above with N-5 being an internal hazard, body mass won't really be it's concern as once ingestion/inhalation has occurred and it's entered the bloodstream that's when the damage will really start to kick in.

Imagine, how alpha particles work. They largely cannot penetrate a layer of skin so they can't really do much damage yet whatever there is within that alpha should be decontaminated or an item of clothing removed, sealed and bagged. When the alpha becomes at most dangerous is when it gets inside the body, because they're bloody stubborn buggars and like to imitate cells, just not in a good way.

To back up the 'affected at the same time' while having different body masses. Obviously the internal processes that would occur would devalue any 'but he's 4x bigger than her' theory. Also in reference to their relative immune systems, YS recovery rate against SS recovery rate would give evidence to suggest that YS was able to get the NA out of her body much quicker. Without knowing DRs (Dose Rates) we can't personally confirm if YS had more or less exposure of it than SS. We only know they were in the same environment at the same time and thus a conclusion would suggest that they both had similar levels of exposure.

When it comes to NA, CA, and RA, they care very little for the physical composition of a human being.


Adje - They (whoever they actually is) most likely did want SS dead or at the very least to cause serious harm. Let's not pretend SS is not still in a very bad way, despite media reports and he could yet still not survive this.
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