Poll
Question: Which Party Will You Be Voting For?
Conservative - 46 (30.9%)
Labour - 49 (32.9%)
Liberal Democrat - 26 (17.4%)
UKIP - 5 (3.4%)
Green - 5 (3.4%)
SNP - 0 (0%)
Plaid Cymru - 0 (0%)
Other - 2 (1.3%)
Not Voting - 7 (4.7%)
Spoiled Ballot - 9 (6%)
Total Voters: 143

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Author Topic: General Election - Who's Getting Your Vote?  (Read 18162 times)
bamboonoshoe


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« Reply #135 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 14:58:40 »

Is it just me or are the modern day liberals the most Intolerant people 😂. What happened to debate and free speech? Shutting a persons opinion down and being abusive because of your hurt feelings isn't democratic.  Who'd have thought we'd have fascists masquerading as 'liberals'.....

I'm mainly a Liberalist and I certainly don't share the values of a recent poster. They may just be a WUM in which case they can freely WUM off to another place. However I don't think the person in question was a true Liberal. Possibly Labour, definitely anti-Tory. I would also say they are more akin to an anarchist than a fascist but I totally understand why you are annoyed and the persons comments.
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« Reply #136 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 15:02:29 »

I think the anti Corbyn stems from the in party shenanigans that didn't want him there. This has been driven by the media and thus many will take what ITV, BBC, Sky say as gospel truth...

imho, Corbyn seems like a great man with great ideas. Maybe he is a bit different and some are quite scared of that. Some feel he is more of a protester than a leader. Many people don't like change, however recent events (EU Ref.) would say differently so maybe Corbyn does have a chance. A chance at least to squeeze the Tories nuts and strengthen their own position.

I find it very strange though that so many can be split on Corbyn for being "too nice" "not a proper politician" or "he's too different" when so many people seemingly really liked Farage. 2.4m of them seemed to like what he said and yet everytime I saw his chortling smug face and a pint of beer (because, you know....he's a man of the people) all I wanted to say was shut up you horrible man!

As you can tell i'm not a fan of Mr.F

This is why I find it baffling that apparently many don't like Corbyn. I think though there are many that will agree with his policies, if they bother to read them. He's also doing what most of the parties didn't have last time out and that is he actually has some policies.

We don't need to read newspapers to know Corbyn is toxic. Just following his interviews where he is extremely irritable, PMQs and incoherent statements tells us all we need to know that he is incompetent, unfit for high office and completely inconsistent among so many other things.

On a personal note I find it an insult that Labour PPCs' will now be knocking on doors asking the electorate to vote for a party with a leader that the Parliamentary Labour party don't agree with; who have tried relentlessly to oust him resulting in numerous cabinet resignations.

Corbyn himself admitted he didn't want the leadership, the Parliamentary Labour party don't want him as leader so why the hell should the rest of the country?
« Last Edit: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 15:08:14 by ghanimah » Logged

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chalkies_shorts


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« Reply #137 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 15:07:59 »

Many of those ex-Labour Kippers won't go back to Labour, at least not at this election which is being pitched as a Brexit election. They'll either vote Tory as a pro-Brexit vote or just not vote. This is why this election is so worrying for Labour (and one of the reasons why May called it), they risk being wiped out in their heartlands by former core Labour voters who voted Leave and won't vote Labour if they see the party as being likely to backslide on that. Which is why Corbyn ordered his MPs to support the Article 50 vote, to the fury of many of them and the metropolitan liberals (small l).
That probably sums me up quite well. Let's get brexit done and dusted and then I'll see how the land lies politically. The danger for me is someone trying to negotiate a soft brexit or even worse an effectively non brexit. Its ukip for me again. Keep the pressure on.
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« Reply #138 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 15:37:13 »

Many of those ex-Labour Kippers won't go back to Labour, at least not at this election which is being pitched as a Brexit election. They'll either vote Tory as a pro-Brexit vote or just not vote. This is why this election is so worrying for Labour (and one of the reasons why May called it), they risk being wiped out in their heartlands by former core Labour voters who voted Leave and won't vote Labour if they see the party as being likely to backslide on that. Which is why Corbyn ordered his MPs to support the Article 50 vote, to the fury of many of them and the metropolitan liberals (small l).

I'm not so sure paul. The EU vote was so close (when we talk about the differential of swing needed for it to go the other way and the fact only 1/3 of the nation actually voted Remain. That's for another day though) and that stemmed cross party so in politics it was a divide across divides. We all know at the time many friendships or working relationships would've been tested with people who usually vote for the same parties, same values etc. That is still a little raw but we all (like it or not) must work together and get the country through Brexit, not necessarily too rushed either but through it the "right way".

I think what many are confusing UKIP voters with is Tory defectors. Yes many Tories politicians/candidates jumped from Conservative to UKIP but many voters did stick with Tory. It was Labour and Lib Dem who lost many to UKIP. Looking at figures it was those two who lost the most. UKIP were up but always would be with a growing popularity (at that moment) it's just they surpassed because no one liked Milliband (Lab) and Lib Dem had aggressed their faithful by going back on tuition fees and the selling of Cleggs soul to Cameron. It was a shame as they did actually delay many Tory policies so they did do some good. However they became the media scapegoat while Cameron played the role of Walter Mity...

Figures at 2015 were very interesting compared from 2010 and it shows the Conservative didn't make massive gains. They were as follows;

UKIP +9.5%
SNP +3.1 %
Grn +2.8%
Lab +1.5%
Con +0.8%
LibD -15.2%

If we discard UKIP, SNP, and Green we can clearly see that both Labour and Conservative didn't make massive gains overall. The underpinning difference was Lib Dems shocking -15.2% decline. Now we know a lot went to UKIP and some to Greens. I don't know many true Lib Dems that would ever vote Conservative it just goes against the values imo. Some would for sure but then they must never have been a true Liberal. I can see why they would vote UKIP though (I certainly wouldn') but that goes down the route of Liberal independence so there is strangely some kind of sadist link between UKIP (early ideas) and Liberal ideas. Maybe the more older Liberals could explain this better than myself?!

My point is, Conservative didn't make massive gains from 2010 in the 2015 election, voters mainly just shifted from the smaller parties to UKIP. This is why this time round it'll be tighter, based upon people not having been able to vote in Theresa May and that UKIP will have less share this time. If anyone truly gains it'll strangely be the Lib Dems.

I think people are foolish if they think Labour would backslide on the notion of Brexit. Article 50 has been triggered there is no way back on that and all Parties know this. Every single person who voted Leave or Remain should also be aware of this. No real way back  on that idea i'm certain. We've made our bed so to speak and now we must sleep in it, whilst bake our own cakes if we so wish to eat them. People will return back to Labour, Con, Lib Dem etc. and for that reason is why I think we'll be looking at a hung parliament.
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horlock07


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« Reply #139 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 16:09:10 »

I'm not so sure paul. The EU vote was so close (when we talk about the differential of swing needed for it to go the other way and the fact only 1/3 of the nation actually voted Remain. That's for another day though) and that stemmed cross party so in politics it was a divide across divides. We all know at the time many friendships or working relationships would've been tested with people who usually vote for the same parties, same values etc. That is still a little raw but we all (like it or not) must work together and get the country through Brexit, not necessarily too rushed either but through it the "right way".

I think what many are confusing UKIP voters with is Tory defectors. Yes many Tories politicians/candidates jumped from Conservative to UKIP but many voters did stick with Tory. It was Labour and Lib Dem who lost many to UKIP. Looking at figures it was those two who lost the most. UKIP were up but always would be with a growing popularity (at that moment) it's just they surpassed because no one liked Milliband (Lab) and Lib Dem had aggressed their faithful by going back on tuition fees and the selling of Cleggs soul to Cameron. It was a shame as they did actually delay many Tory policies so they did do some good. However they became the media scapegoat while Cameron played the role of Walter Mity...

Figures at 2015 were very interesting compared from 2010 and it shows the Conservative didn't make massive gains. They were as follows;

UKIP +9.5%
SNP +3.1 %
Grn +2.8%
Lab +1.5%
Con +0.8%
LibD -15.2%

If we discard UKIP, SNP, and Green we can clearly see that both Labour and Conservative didn't make massive gains overall. The underpinning difference was Lib Dems shocking -15.2% decline. Now we know a lot went to UKIP and some to Greens. I don't know many true Lib Dems that would ever vote Conservative it just goes against the values imo. Some would for sure but then they must never have been a true Liberal. I can see why they would vote UKIP though (I certainly wouldn') but that goes down the route of Liberal independence so there is strangely some kind of sadist link between UKIP (early ideas) and Liberal ideas. Maybe the more older Liberals could explain this better than myself?!

My point is, Conservative didn't make massive gains from 2010 in the 2015 election, voters mainly just shifted from the smaller parties to UKIP. This is why this time round it'll be tighter, based upon people not having been able to vote in Theresa May and that UKIP will have less share this time. If anyone truly gains it'll strangely be the Lib Dems.

I think people are foolish if they think Labour would backslide on the notion of Brexit. Article 50 has been triggered there is no way back on that and all Parties know this. Every single person who voted Leave or Remain should also be aware of this. No real way back  on that idea i'm certain. We've made our bed so to speak and now we must sleep in it, whilst bake our own cakes if we so wish to eat them. People will return back to Labour, Con, Lib Dem etc. and for that reason is why I think we'll be looking at a hung parliament.

+1 on most of that.

However I am at a loss where this idea seems to be circulating that Labour will do anything bar support Brexit, leaving the EU entirely follows Corbyn's longstanding policy position and whilst he witters on when it suits him that policy decisions etc are made at conference on many issues they tend to just reflect his personal position.

I thought he would be breath of fresh air when elected, but in the first few months he made various policy speeches which were lapped up by the faithful and then quietly contradicted and forgotten by 'spokesmen', meaning that he made the big news and never had to deliver the true position, made me suspect he is little better than any other politician at playing to the crowd for his own advancement and objectives  - sadly.
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« Reply #140 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 16:15:07 »

In fairness Keir Starmer (Shadow Brexit) set out Labour's Brexit position pretty thoroughly today which is basically soft out:

- No second referendum
- Guarantee right to remain for EU nationals on day one, seek to get UK nationals in EU guaranteed in return asap
- Devolve powers returned to the UK to regional assemblies
- Retain EU working rights legislation
- Seek (not at any cost) membership of the EEA
- Parliament vote on final deal


So softer than Tories but still out. That's the good thing about elections, they mean the parties have to be relatively clear about what their positions are. Doesn't stop them ignoring that entirely once they win though...
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« Reply #141 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 16:39:02 »

That probably sums me up quite well. Let's get brexit done and dusted and then I'll see how the land lies politically. The danger for me is someone trying to negotiate a soft brexit or even worse an effectively non brexit. Its ukip for me again. Keep the pressure on.
I completely disagree and will personally therefore be voting Lib Dem.  I equally respect your call, CS.

Lib Dems and UKIP are the only two parties who are, broadly, united over the EU question.

It is far from being the only question but the next Parliament will surely be defined by the Brexit negotiated.  Its economic consequences (whichever version you prefer) will affect the NHS, Education, Social Care, Tax and so on as much as any left/right political postures.

Some even suggest that May wants a bigger majority to dilute the Tory Euro-sceptics and thereby enable her to negotiate a softer Brexit.  She has as PM been a massive flip:flopper, so who really knows.

I cannot "agree with Nick" about a possibly close election.  The results as usual will depend on the outcome of the marginals rather than percentage vote shares where the Tories will be highly professional, resourced and focussed.

If only bloody STFC had been similarly focussed on their 6 pointers!
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« Reply #142 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 16:40:06 »

+1 on most of that.

However I am at a loss where this idea seems to be circulating that Labour will do anything bar support Brexit, leaving the EU entirely follows Corbyn's longstanding policy position and whilst he witters on when it suits him that policy decisions etc are made at conference on many issues they tend to just reflect his personal position.

I thought he would be breath of fresh air when elected, but in the first few months he made various policy speeches which were lapped up by the faithful and then quietly contradicted and forgotten by 'spokesmen', meaning that he made the big news and never had to deliver the true position, made me suspect he is little better than any other politician at playing to the crowd for his own advancement and objectives  - sadly.

Oh no absolutely, I thought that's what I was alluding to? I think Labour know that Brexit means Brexit and they would handle it accordingly so. As would or should any other party too.
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« Reply #143 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 16:49:12 »

I'm mainly a Liberalist and I certainly don't share the values of a recent poster. They may just be a WUM in which case they can freely WUM off to another place. However I don't think the person in question was a true Liberal. Possibly Labour, definitely anti-Tory. I would also say they are more akin to an anarchist than a fascist but I totally understand why you are annoyed and the persons comments.

Liberals, as opposed to LibDems, can come in all shapes and sizes.  However the essential dichotomy is between social liberals and economic liberals.  Social liberals believing many behaviours are acceptable. Economic liberals believe the free market can sort out everything. You get some social liberals who are economic liberals like a Cameron and Osborne, and economic liberals who are socially illiberal like a May, and the alt-right mob who've taken over the White House.

Socialists should recognise that there is no such thing as a free market, and that as a consequence there has to be some loss of liberal values to maintain a cohesive society.... you can argue about degree.

Ha-Joon Chang's book 23 things they didn't tell you about capitalism is a good read.  Makes a change to have a Chang not talking bullshit. Quite easy reading the sort of thing Chubbs might consider, to get some idea about his kids' future
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« Reply #144 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 16:49:30 »

I don't understand why Labour don't just come out and go full anti-EU.  They only really supported it because of the labour laws introduced, but they can easily make a statement that they will maintain those and continue on the same path the EU has gone.  Outside of that, they could easily push an agenda to the left that involves not being in the EU.  For example, they could push for a reduction in VAT, or to remove it from Utilities as they would clearly like to align to a progressive taxation policy.
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« Reply #145 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 16:59:41 »

I don't understand why Labour don't just come out and go full anti-EU. 
That was their original position
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« Reply #146 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 17:07:50 »

I don't understand why Labour don't just come out and go full anti-EU.  They only really supported it because of the labour laws introduced, but they can easily make a statement that they will maintain those and continue on the same path the EU has gone.  Outside of that, they could easily push an agenda to the left that involves not being in the EU.  For example, they could push for a reduction in VAT, or to remove it from Utilities as they would clearly like to align to a progressive taxation policy.

This is the sort of difficult shit I wrestled with this time last year. There really isn't an easy solution... on the one hand EU, an undemocratic, banker's construct that is screwing over the likes of the Greeks..and looking to do deals with the US that will break up the NHS.

On the other, there is the Social Chapter which involves workers rights which has an internationalist flavour much loved of socialists. Many of these rights are being gradually eroded though within the EU anyway, and you can be sure that the Tories will be looking to bin off what's left.

As soon as Corbyn allowed himself to be compromised by half hearted remain he was fucked.
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« Reply #147 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 17:16:33 »

I don't understand why Labour don't just come out and go full anti-EU.  They only really supported it because of the labour laws introduced, but they can easily make a statement that they will maintain those and continue on the same path the EU has gone.  Outside of that, they could easily push an agenda to the left that involves not being in the EU.  For example, they could push for a reduction in VAT, or to remove it from Utilities as they would clearly like to align to a progressive taxation policy.



Totally agree
I've been saying this for a while.
I'm a Corbyn Labour supporter and voted to leave the EU and I know a lot of others like me.
Unfortunately the whole focus of Brexit has been on Farage's  mob and immigration.
I think Labour have lost a lot of their traditional support over this issue.
It worries me that this election will become all about Brexit,meanwhile the NHS goes down the pan,the housing crisis gets worse,more food banks,more homelessness etc 
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ghanimah


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« Reply #148 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 17:25:07 »

I don't understand why Labour don't just come out and go full anti-EU.  They only really supported it because of the labour laws introduced, but they can easily make a statement that they will maintain those and continue on the same path the EU has gone.  Outside of that, they could easily push an agenda to the left that involves not being in the EU.  For example, they could push for a reduction in VAT, or to remove it from Utilities as they would clearly like to align to a progressive taxation policy.

Yes, Labour has always traditionally rejected the concept of the EEC/EU. They only did a u-turn in 1988 when Delors' told them that being in the EU could reverse Thatcherisim. After then the party was taken over by establishment figures like Blair who liked the EU because it enabled him to waltz about on the international stage without accountability.
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« Reply #149 on: Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 17:47:14 »

Liberals, as opposed to LibDems, can come in all shapes and sizes.  However the essential dichotomy is between social liberals and economic liberals.  Social liberals believing many behaviours are acceptable. Economic liberals believe the free market can sort out everything. You get some social liberals who are economic liberals like a Cameron and Osborne, and economic liberals who are socially illiberal like a May, and the alt-right mob who've taken over the White House.

Socialists should recognise that there is no such thing as a free market, and that as a consequence there has to be some loss of liberal values to maintain a cohesive society.... you can argue about degree.

Ha-Joon Chang's book 23 things they didn't tell you about capitalism is a good read.  Makes a change to have a Chang not talking bullshit. Quite easy reading the sort of thing Chubbs might consider, to get some idea about his kids' future

Excellent Reg, I'm usually found reading excerpts of Oedipus, Keats, and suchlike. I'll take a look at the Ha-Joon Chang. I may put it on my holiday reading list along with my long term favourite, Collapse by Jared Diamond (I think you'd enjoy that), A Walk in the Woods by Bill Bryson and either something by Iain Banks (Wasp Factory/The Crow Road) or Terry Pratchett's Discworld. You know, just to lighten the load. I can't read Nietzsche for 2weeks solid  Cheesy Cheesy
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