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Author Topic: Let's Get Political!  (Read 1996101 times)
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« Reply #9075 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 12:29:57 »

Nowt to do with State aid (although there is a similar case in Ireland which fell on its arse in the courts for this very reason so possibly all smoke and mirrors at this stage anyway), more to do with who potentially actually owns it along with donations they make to a certain political party....

It is effectivvely the government propping up a private enterprise at taxpayers expense though (the deferment).
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GosportNob

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« Reply #9076 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 13:14:03 »

Hi Reg nice to hear from you again. My point was not about the constitution but your critique inferring that this elected government is a dictatorship without any reference to previous administrations.
The current parliamentary system has been seen to be more than adequate for hundreds of years. The most urgent changes required in my opinion are reform of the House of Lords and equalization of constituency size by electorate numbers.
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« Reply #9077 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 13:20:00 »

It is effectivvely the government propping up a private enterprise at taxpayers expense though (the deferment).

You mean like Northern Rock? And TATA steel in Wales?
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #9078 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 13:46:31 »

Hi Reg nice to hear from you again. My point was not about the constitution but your critique inferring that this elected government is a dictatorship without any reference to previous administrations.
The current parliamentary system has been seen to be more than adequate for hundreds of years. The most urgent changes required in my opinion are reform of the House of Lords and equalization of constituency size by electorate numbers.

The point is illustrated by the Iraq issue as outlined.... previous admins able to behave as elected dictatorships but balances in place by custom and the broad church nature of parties, placing curbs on them. This version of the Constitution relies on honorable behaviour... we don't have it with this administration.  Johnson purged dissent within his party, acted unlawfully in proroguing Parliament and lied to the head of state.

The majority of voters in the UK didn't vote for this, therefore its axiomatic that there should be written  legal curbs to protect them against the worst excesses that this right wing government will foist on them.
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pauld
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« Reply #9079 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 14:10:32 »

Don't worry, our stance on Iran won't be decided by our govt anyway. There was a bloke from the US National Security Council on R4 this morning explaining that if we want a trade deal we'd better fall into line on Iran pretty damn sharpish. #takingBackControl
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horlock07

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« Reply #9080 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 14:33:56 »

Don't worry, our stance on Iran won't be decided by our govt anyway. There was a bloke from the US National Security Council on R4 this morning explaining that if we want a trade deal we'd better fall into line on Iran pretty damn sharpish. #takingBackControl

That has been as clear as day as illustrated by our trusty Poodle wittering on about Trump's Iran deal, which appears to be entirely mythical at the moment but is obviously better than the one his sugar daddy doesn't like.

The point is illustrated by the Iraq issue as outlined.... previous admins able to behave as elected dictatorships but balances in place by custom and the broad church nature of parties, placing curbs on them. This version of the Constitution relies on honorable behaviour... we don't have it with this administration.  Johnson purged dissent within his party, acted unlawfully in proroguing Parliament and lied to the head of state.

The majority of voters in the UK didn't vote for this, therefore its axiomatic that there should be written  legal curbs to protect them against the worst excesses that this right wing government will foist on them.

Point is, what happened in the past is frankly irrelevant, constitution is not going to be reviewed without the approval of the government elected with a stonking majority under our long-standing electoral system (which Labour had the opportunity to change in 2011 but instead sat on the fence with no official position (I see a trend emerging here)), who in turn (despite what they may have signalled in their manifesto) are not going to let anything that dilutes their present power get off the blocks, it may be morally dubious but that's politics. 

Somehat ironically the unelected Lords could be the most restraining house in terms of the government being held to account, see Dubs, L!
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RobertT

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« Reply #9081 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 14:35:19 »

It is effectivvely the government propping up a private enterprise at taxpayers expense though (the deferment).

Isn't the State Aid issue in relation to competition?  If so, flybe largely operate unwanted routes, acting as a sort of public transport operation.  As such, the public interest comes into play and there are very few anti-competitive issues with propping them up.  I like Branson, but Virgin do know how to play this card pretty well - Northern Rock was mentioned earlier which gave them the leg up into the Financial world.  They'll have one eye on the landing slots flybe have, which is why they went in, and why they'll be trying all they can to minimise the financial hit of running any of the existing network.
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« Reply #9082 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 15:11:57 »

You mean like Northern Rock? And TATA steel in Wales?

Yes its not without precedent. It's interesting which industries the government treat as sacred cows, and which can go to the dogs.

I take Rob's point on flying routes others won't, and thus enabling regional connectivity. Though some bigger players were blocked out of Newquay for example.

However FlyBy owners aren't exactly skint....
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GosportNob

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« Reply #9083 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 15:12:21 »

Ffs Reg can't you see you view every political issue from one perspective only and with blinkers on as well. Can't you see how ridiculous it is to criticise Boris and his mates without mentioning the shameful shenanigans of the speaker and mp's who would not accept the result of the 2016 referendum. Using the humble address and back benches taking over parliamentary business don't ever get a mention from you!
 
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pauld
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« Reply #9084 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 15:28:57 »

Ffs Reg can't you see you view every political issue from one perspective only and with blinkers on as well. Can't you see how ridiculous it is to criticise Boris and his mates without mentioning the shameful shenanigans of the speaker and mp's who would not accept the result of the 2016 referendum. Using the humble address and back benches taking over parliamentary business don't ever get a mention from you!
Which is why I said that Reg's argument for constitutional reform should garner support from all corners of the political spectrum. We don't have a constitution, the shenanigans that you refer to make the argument as to why we need one, just as the examples Reg cites. You're vehemently agreeing with each other here
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« Reply #9085 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 15:36:45 »

Which is why I said that Reg's argument for constitutional reform should garner support from all corners of the political spectrum. We don't have a constitution, the shenanigans that you refer to make the argument as to why we need one, just as the examples Reg cites. You're vehemently agreeing with each other here

Possibly if parties looked long term and acted in the public interest, they don't though.

With our essentially two party system if you can get a decent majority you basically have carte blanche, Tories know that and thus for now it looks fine and rosy, likewise when they inevitably bugger things up and it looks like Labour might get in at a forthcoming election why would Labour then support reform as they know that come post election the free hand drops to them.

System is buggered, but no one has the power (and) inclination to do anything about it. Labour had chance 9 years back and chose not to, thus to bleat when the system is against them just looks like sour grapes, although at least its not blaming the media.
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« Reply #9086 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 15:42:27 »

Possibly if parties looked long term and acted in the public interest, they don't though.

With our essentially two party system if you can get a decent majority you basically have carte blanche, Tories know that and thus for now it looks fine and rosy, likewise when they inevitably bugger things up and it looks like Labour might get in at a forthcoming election why would Labour then support reform as they know that come post election the free hand drops to them.

System is buggered, but no one has the power (and) inclination to do anything about it. Labour had chance 9 years back and chose not to, thus to bleat when the system is against them just looks like sour grapes, although at least its not blaming the media.
Yes, although in this instance I was talking about Rob and Reg, not the parties they support. They're both on the same page in regards to the need for constitutional reform, but with different examples motivating them. And possibly differing solutions, although that presupposes either of them have thought very hard about what they *would* like to see (not a dig, I haven't personally - I can see the need for having a constitution but not being a constitutional expert, have only the haziest idea about what such a beast should look like, other than a system of checks and balances between executive, legislature, judiciary and media)
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« Reply #9087 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 15:48:30 »

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Legends-Lounge

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« Reply #9088 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 16:18:39 »



Could be worse. If you backed staying in the EU and voted labour I’d have said that headline was perfect.
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« Reply #9089 on: Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 16:39:04 »

Anyway the Labour fighback has started in earnest, Vaz is back!
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