Let's Get Political!

[Flashheart]

The reaction to Emily Thornberry's recent comments.

It's quite easy to understand what she is saying. I think a lot of people choose not to.

[pauld]

Think we can go back as far as Thatcher as well regarding bare faced lying to be fair. They have all done it

Sorry, but I disagree. Can't stand Thatcher but she never stooped to the depths of Blair. Prior to Blair, politicians were shifty, omitted stuff they should have been up front about, ducked questions, tried to put a better spin on things etc. But Blair and Campbell didn't bother with any of that, they went out and out to deliberately lie to take the country into an illegal war and made the art of government entirely about presentation, not what was best for the people and the country. They set the tone that leads directly to now, where we have a PM who can simply disregard the question of truth and lies or the known facts as simply irrelevant.

[Shrivvy Road]

Sorry, but I disagree. Can't stand Thatcher but she never stooped to the depths of Blair. Prior to Blair, politicians were shifty, omitted stuff they should have been up front about, ducked questions, tried to put a better spin on things etc. But Blair and Campbell didn't bother with any of that, they went out and out to deliberately lie to take the country into an illegal war and made the art of government entirely about presentation, not what was best for the people and the country. They set the tone that leads directly to now, where we have a PM who can simply disregard the question of truth and lies or the known facts as simply irrelevant.

Lying is lying. It is disgusting what they did but facts show us that Thatcher lied to the faces of the miners to get what she wanted. She fully supported the USA in the 80s. civil wars in nicaragua,el salvador and honduras . Just look at some of her friendships as well. She is as bad in my opinion

[pauld]

Lying is lying. It is disgusting what they did but facts show us that Thatcher lied to the faces of the miners to get what she wanted. She fully supported the USA in the 80s. civil wars in nicaragua,el salvador and honduras . Just look at some of her friendships as well. She is as bad in my opinion

I didn't say she was a paragon of moral virtue, as I said, I cannot stand the woman. What I am arguing is that Blair, Mandelson and Campbell significantly lowered the bar as to what you could get away with in terms of wholesale deceit and outright lies in public life.

[Shrivvy Road]

I didn't say she was a paragon of moral virtue, as I said, I cannot stand the woman. What I am arguing is that Blair, Mandelson and Campbell significantly lowered the bar as to what you could get away with in terms of wholesale deceit and outright lies in public life.

No I know mate I was just saying I think we could easily go back as far as Thatcher as to when it all started going tits up.

[pauld]

No I know mate I was just saying I think we could easily go back as far as Thatcher as to when it all started going tits up.

I blame that bastard Pitt the Younger

[Pax Romana]

I think that you are all writing off Boris too easily.  Probably the only thing he has an impressively consistent track record on is his bizarre ability to rise above (sic) the holes that his bluster, lies and bare-faced opportunism get him into.

There will surely have to be an election shortly, presumably post Oct 17th assuming parliament can continue to impose it's will on events. At that point he can claim that:

1.  His commitment to be out by Oct 31st was sabotaged by parliament.

2.  That parliament has voted against a deal and against no-deal, effectively leaving this sorry business dragging on ad infinitum, to no-one's benefit be they remainers or leavers.

3.  That the current parliament, whilst pretending to respect the referendum result, is effectively pursuing an underhand policy of forcing the country into remaining by the tactic of 'regretfully' blocking every attempt to leave as not being in the public interest.  He can point to the LDs as being the one UK-wide party that has broken cover and finally come out and admitted that regardless of the referendum result they will block us leaving in any way that they can, and that the Labour Party is simply a dishonest version of the LDs.

4.  He can also ask whether the electorate really wants a Corbyn-led government running the country for the next 5 years?

Yes I know there are massive holes in the above 'logic' (except 4 imo) and his own shameful record ought to blow 1-3 out of the water.  But that is the trap that everyone keeps falling into.  Pointing out the lies, discrepancies, illogicalities in the Boris narrative may work in the future, but it certainly hasn't in the past.  Assuming that people will suddenly start seeing through Boris is the same flawed mindset that put Donald in charge of the free world.

[horlock07]

I blame that bastard Pitt the Younger

Coincidentally the only other PM to have lost their first vote as PM in 1783...

[Red Frog]

I think that you are all writing off Boris too easily.

I'm not (see above). I agree entirely. Way too early to be writing off BJ. There are many twists, spins, lies and deceptions before this game plays out.

[pauld]

I think that you are all writing off Boris too easily.  Probably the only thing he has an impressively consistent track record on is his bizarre ability to rise above (sic) the holes that his bluster, lies and bare-faced opportunism get him into.

There will surely have to be an election shortly, presumably post Oct 17th assuming parliament can continue to impose it's will on events. At that point he can claim that:

1.  His commitment to be out by Oct 31st was sabotaged by parliament.

2.  That parliament has voted against a deal and against no-deal, effectively leaving this sorry business dragging on ad infinitum, to no-one's benefit be they remainers or leavers.

3.  That the current parliament, whilst pretending to respect the referendum result, is effectively pursuing an underhand policy of forcing the country into remaining by the tactic of 'regretfully' blocking every attempt to leave as not being in the public interest.  He can point to the LDs as being the one UK-wide party that has broken cover and finally come out and admitted that regardless of the referendum result they will block us leaving in any way that they can, and that the Labour Party is simply a dishonest version of the LDs.

4.  He can also ask whether the electorate really wants a Corbyn-led government running the country for the next 5 years?

Yes I know there are massive holes in the above 'logic' (except 4 imo) and his own shameful record ought to blow 1-3 out of the water.  But that is the trap that everyone keeps falling into.  Pointing out the lies, discrepancies, illogicalities in the Boris narrative may work in the future, but it certainly hasn't in the past.  Assuming that people will suddenly start seeing through Boris is the same flawed mindset that put Donald in charge of the free world.

Sadly I think you are completely right. Take yesterday's car-crash rambling speech in front of the coppers. If you look at some of the clips etc it's an absolute embarrassment, at best he hasn't bothered preparing, but it also looks like he's half-cut. But a lot of Boris voters largely won't see that. They'll see a photo or a 10-second clip of Johnson stood in front of a load of coppers saying "I'd rather be dead in a ditch" etc etc and they'll (indeed already are from what I can see on FB and twitter) go "Yeah, you tell 'em Boris". Likewise, with Farage, he's demonstrably and provably full of shit, but all he has to do is rattle off a couple of soundbites and he brings the house down. Pointing out that they're liars, that they have financial links with Russia, that they have political links with the US far right, all that, doesn't matter. They're not embarrassed by it, because they're beyond shame and their supporters don't listen because they're "post-truth" and any counter story to the shit they swallow is just "MSM" and "Fake News". Even when it all comes crashing down and we're using that stockpile of body bags, it won't be their fault, it will be EU intransigence or Remoaner doctors deliberately letting people die to make Johnson and Rees-Mogg look bad.

It's not a phenomenon restricted to the right - Corbynistas are just as bad.

[Ardiles]

I think that you are all writing off Boris too easily.  Probably the only thing he has an impressively consistent track record on is his bizarre ability to rise above (sic) the holes that his bluster, lies and bare-faced opportunism get him into.

There will surely have to be an election shortly, presumably post Oct 17th assuming parliament can continue to impose it's will on events. At that point he can claim that:

1.  His commitment to be out by Oct 31st was sabotaged by parliament.

2.  That parliament has voted against a deal and against no-deal, effectively leaving this sorry business dragging on ad infinitum, to no-one's benefit be they remainers or leavers.

3.  That the current parliament, whilst pretending to respect the referendum result, is effectively pursuing an underhand policy of forcing the country into remaining by the tactic of 'regretfully' blocking every attempt to leave as not being in the public interest.  He can point to the LDs as being the one UK-wide party that has broken cover and finally come out and admitted that regardless of the referendum result they will block us leaving in any way that they can, and that the Labour Party is simply a dishonest version of the LDs.

4.  He can also ask whether the electorate really wants a Corbyn-led government running the country for the next 5 years?

Yes I know there are massive holes in the above 'logic' (except 4 imo) and his own shameful record ought to blow 1-3 out of the water.  But that is the trap that everyone keeps falling into.  Pointing out the lies, discrepancies, illogicalities in the Boris narrative may work in the future, but it certainly hasn't in the past.  Assuming that people will suddenly start seeing through Boris is the same flawed mindset that put Donald in charge of the free world.

Not sure anyone's really writing Johnson off.  Enjoying his discomfort, certainly.  But the game is far from over and I'm (also) sure that he (or, rather, Cummings) has something up his sleeve.

What I'm less sure about is whether there is bound to be an election soon.  Of course, there could be.  But Johnson's ability to force one is looking shaky.  He would be highly likely now to lose a vote of no confidence.  And an election would follow after that only if there was no-one else able to form an administration within 14 days.  That's far from certain, but neither is it impossible.  It may require some statesmanship from Corbyn to let someone else have a go...but you never know.

[Reg Smeeton]

Sadly I think you are completely right. Take yesterday's car-crash rambling speech in front of the coppers. If you look at some of the clips etc it's an absolute embarrassment, at best he hasn't bothered preparing, but it also looks like he's half-cut. But a lot of Boris voters largely won't see that. They'll see a photo or a 10-second clip of Johnson stood in front of a load of coppers saying "I'd rather be dead in a ditch" etc etc and they'll (indeed already are from what I can see on FB and twitter) go "Yeah, you tell 'em Boris". Likewise, with Farage, he's demonstrably and provably full of shit, but all he has to do is rattle off a couple of soundbites and he brings the house down. Pointing out that they're liars, that they have financial links with Russia, that they have political links with the US far right, all that, doesn't matter. They're not embarrassed by it, because they're beyond shame and their supporters don't listen because they're "post-truth" and any counter story to the shit they swallow is just "MSM" and "Fake News". Even when it all comes crashing down and we're using that stockpile of body bags, it won't be their fault, it will be EU intransigence or Remoaner doctors deliberately letting people die to make Johnson and Rees-Mogg look bad.

It's not a phenomenon restricted to the right - Corbynistas are just as bad.

You were doing so well til the last bit.

It's interesting that atm the Beeb are showing, I assume a series, about the rise of fascism in the 30's.  It's pretty obvious to show similarities between then and now, and here lies the danger, the likes of Johnson and Trump cannot survive without their "believers" and they're not likely to change views anytime soon. History seems to indicate that sooner or later this will spill over into violence.

[pauld]

Pointing out the lies, discrepancies, illogicalities in the Boris narrative may work in the future, but it certainly hasn't in the past.  Assuming that people will suddenly start seeing through Boris is the same flawed mindset that put Donald in charge of the free world.

One of the key differences between Trump and Johnson is that at least some of his own party do have the balls to stand up to him, unlike the craven display of 99% of US Republican politicians who know it's a shitshow but cling on to his populist/white nationalist coat-tails nonetheless. And even among those not prepared to speak out, the queue for the exit door in the Tory Party is growing by the day, seems to be every few hours another MP quits or announces they won't be standing again. Cummings will be delighted by this, mind, his project is every bit as much about "cleansing" the Tory Party of any moderating influences so that it can be reinvented as a hard right English Nationalist Party (in or out of govt) as it is about Brexit

[Pax Romana]

One of the key differences between Trump and Johnson is that at least some of his own party do have the balls to stand up to him, unlike the craven display of 99% of US Republican politicians who know it's a shitshow but cling on to his populist/white nationalist coat-tails nonetheless. And even among those not prepared to speak out, the queue for the exit door in the Tory Party is growing by the day, seems to be every few hours another MP quits or announces they won't be standing again. Cummings will be delighted by this, mind, his project is every bit as much about "cleansing" the Tory Party of any moderating influences so that it can be reinvented as a hard right English Nationalist Party (in or out of govt) as it is about Brexit

Take your point re Tories visibly standing up to Boris, but a lot of republicans very visibly disowned Trump before the election as well and if anything that seemed to help him ("look even the republican politicians are afraid of my message, that proves I'm right").

I fear, however, that you are spot on about Cummings.  Particularly the "in or out" bit.  Not saying that a Corbyn government is the Machiavellian master plan, but probably seen as a viable alternative scenario, a kind of "heads we win, tails we win in the longer term".  And if the little people get screwed either way, well that will teach them not to be little people.

[pauld]

Take your point re Tories visibly standing up to Boris, but a lot of republicans very visibly disowned Trump before the election as well and if anything that seemed to help him ("look even the republican politicians are afraid of my message, that proves I'm right").

Yes, I wasn't suggesting it would stop him, but suspect it may lead to a hollowing out of the current Tory Party leaving a rump hard right English Nationalist party, which may still keep the name (only) "Conservative", with the moderates splintering off into a new centre right party, if there are enough of them, rather than following the current trickle of defections to the Lib Dems. The rump English Nationalists then join up/merge with Farage's loons and oddballs to launch an out and out Trump style ethno-nationalist grouping. Who either win the next election or spend their time nursing the grievances of the "Brexit betrayed", increasingly divisive rhetoric, usual scapegoats etc to build a base for next time. As you say:

I fear, however, that you are spot on about Cummings.  Particularly the "in or out" bit.  Not saying that a Corbyn government is the Machiavellian master plan, but probably seen as a viable alternative scenario, a kind of "heads we win, tails we win in the longer term".  And if the little people get screwed either way, well that will teach them not to be little people.