Let's Get Political!

[pauld]

Question is at what stage does an MP voting for something they are being advised by their CS's is going to cause such damage to the nation not be a bit, you know, treasonous?

Tower for the lot of them! In all seriousness, I've made precisely this point about specifically Johnson, Gove and Farage - that they knowingly lied to the electorate to advance a cause they knew would be damaging to the nation's interests. Additionally Arron Banks accepted/laundered money from a hostile power to do so. Although I'd be wary of setting a precedent by using the Treason Act (e.g. the Daily Mail et al with their "Traitors" headlines and the facebook loons with their calls for "Behead the Brexit Traitors), but surely it must amount to the less emotive offence of malfeasance in public office? And I'd sling Cameron in alongside them for gross negligence in the way he carelessly foisted this calamity on the country to sort out his internal party issues

[horlock07]

Don't worry Jacob has a well mannerd, grown up clever solution....

https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1114086264024727554

Don't forget this is the same guy who said the UK had no power to do any of these things in the EU and that’s why we had to leave.

But he has got a plummy voice so he must be clever and followed.

[chalkies_shorts]

I am not sure how any MP with a conscience can vote for no deal when their Civil Servants are providing them such such analysis....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6875015/Top-mandarins-bombshell-No-Deal-Brexit-warning.html

At what stage does voting for something that you are being advised will harm the nation become a little bit nawty?

In that case just be honest with the electorate and tell them we're staying and in the words of the obnoxious Anna Soubry - suck it up.

[Ardiles]

Don't worry Jacob has a well mannerd, grown up clever solution....

https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1114086264024727554

Don't forget this is the same guy who said the UK had no power to do any of these things in the EU and that’s why we had to leave.

But he has got a plummy voice so he must be clever and followed.

Twit.

[pauld]

Twit.

Bit rude, horlock's always struck me as quite intelligent

[horlock07]

In that case just be honest with the electorate and tell them we're staying and in the words of the obnoxious Anna Soubry - suck it up.

But that's not Mays style is it, she will do anything she can to cling to power just for a few more days,

I know you like a bit of Dunt, so here is his take....

'You would have thought, by law of averages, that Theresa May would occasionally behave in a way that looked dignified or principled, even if only by chance, but it simply never happens. Every action she takes is defined by self-serving irresponsibility and deception. She is, if nothing else, utterly reliable. You can set your moral watch by her: Whatever she is doing, it is by definition the worst way you could possibly behave in the circumstances.

Take her letter to Donald Tusk this morning. The nuts and bolts of it are positive. She's requesting an extension to Article 50 to avoid a cliff edge next week. She is launching preparations for European elections so that we can extend further in the future. All good. But just look at the manner in which she framed all this.

Just hours before the prime minister sent her letter, reports emerged that European Council president Donald Tusk would offer Britain a one-year extension to next April. And yet in her letter, May still asked for a short extension to June 30th, even though she knew it would be rejected.

It is quite extraordinary how consistent her failure is. The facts change around her, but it makes no difference. She sees the offer, then does what she was going to do anyway, knowing that this will involve defeat in just a few days time. It's like the Brexit negotiations never went away: a British team with no imagination, no emotional or strategic intelligence, trying the same things over and over again to no avail.

Of course, May's real tactic is to blame the EU for forcing a long extension. She doesn't propose a realistic end date herself, because she wants to be able to pretend that it was pushed on her by Brussels. She is quite literally setting herself up for failure.

It is such a profoundly honourless way to behave. It has become very tiring indeed to watch this country be led by someone with such low ethical standards in their conduct. And worst of all, for the global media to be covering it while it happens. Brexit is not just reducing us in the world's eyes as a political project. May's manner, her approach to diplomacy, is so shameful that it is hurting the world's impression of what constitutes the British personality. She is making us look scheming and inept. You can get away with being one of those things. Being both is dreadful.

We are now stuck in the extraordinary situation of watching our negotiating partner force a more advantageous situation on us against our stated will. This is admittedly for their own reasons. They have no intention of holding emergency summits every month to extend the timetable again each time May fails. So they prefer a one-year extension which can be cancelled whenever a deal is agreed.

This is being termed - in the dreadful portmanteau manner we are seemingly condemned to inflict on ourselves - a 'flextension'. But in reality it is just the standard operating system for Article 50. The original legal text says that EU laws cease to apply "from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification". There was no reason to think the extension rules would operate differently.

On the basic level of national self-interest - you know, the way most countries behave and which we did too not so long ago - asking for a short extension makes zero sense. It limits our options and thereby our leverage. May wants to get the deal done quickly. Fine. But what if she fails, which given her track record is not exactly unlikely? Then she needs more time. She would have to go cap-in-hand to the EU begging for a further extension, over and over again, more pathetic each time, our national reputation an expanding stain on the floor. Or, alternately, she could ask for a longer extension and then cut it short if she got it all done quickly. There is no downside to this. Any rational actor would pursue it. But it is not politically palatable at home.

At some point we have to realise that a culture in which rational self-interest and political acceptability are mutual exclusive is not healthy. It suggests we have gone functionally insane as a country.

The immediate consequence is that we are now being treated by our negotiating partner as a kind of charity case. A long extension actually gives up their time advantage, which they used to such punishing effect during the original Article 50 window. Now we have debilitated ourselves so thoroughly, made such an obvious and profound pig's ear of the whole thing, that the EU isn't even bothering to use all its leverage. It is an acute humiliation. It is like someone beating you in a fight while checking their phone.

But imagine for a moment that May succeeds, which - who knows? - might still happen. We put a man on the moon, after all. Perhaps the great scientific accomplishments of mankind could extend to the prime minister not making a catastrophic mess of things. What happens then?

If she succeeds by May 22nd, as originally planned, we will have held an election campaign for the European parliament, selected candidates, seen them tour the country and then, at the very last minute, they'll be pulled out and the EU will be forced to initiate back-up plans for those seats.

What a stain on our national reputation for us to be treating a democratic institution with such little respect. And this, of course, is being instigated by Brexiters whose entire argument rested on the absence of democracy in Europe. That democracy always existed and now we smear and sabotage it for our own grubby self-interest without even a flicker of recognition about the hypocrisy and shamefulness it involves.

Or perhaps she will succeed in her plan by June 30th, as she specifies in the letter - the date just before new MEPs take their seats. So in this scenario candidates would have been selected, campaigns conducted, constituencies toured, elections held, and then, the moment that the men and women selected by voters to represent them were about to take their seats, they would be whisked away like it was all a dream.

That is May's plan. That is literally what she is proposing. The fact she is so bad at her job that it won't happen is irrelevant. This is her intention.

What a limitless disgrace this is as a political proposition. What a full-time, 24/7, every-day-including-Christmas moral abyss she is. The prime minister has spent the last three years insisting that holding a second referendum would destroy people's trust in the democratic process. And this is how she behaves. This is how she treats elections. As something to be dismissively engaged in and then cast aside, like a bogey you can't flick off your fingers.

She really is absolutely shameless. There is no competition anymore, there is no question: She is, quite simply, the worst British prime minister of our lifetime, and quite possibly of anyone else's.'

[Reg Smeeton]

TBF May got the gig as the Tories knew the alternatives are worse, which remains the case.

The use of the "man on the moon" metaphor is probably not the best, as many Brexiteers think it never happened...

[BambooToTheFuture]

I don't think he'll be causing the Ivor Novello judges many sleepless nights.

Well considering the origin is seemingly the playground chant to include Teachers et al and it has become it's own parodical spin as a regular <<insert opposition team players here>> anti football chant. Now chiefly used by Glasgow Celtic and Manchester United - and much likely others. I don't think I can say there ever was an attempt to turn the heads of the Ivor Novello set.

[michael]

Right-wing Brexit cheerleader Peter Oborne has had a re-think:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/

Brexit has paralysed the system. It has turned Britain into a laughing stock. And it is certain to make us poorer and to lead to lower incomes and lost jobs.

We Brexiteers would be wise to acknowledge all this. It’s past time we did. We need to acknowledge, too, that that we will never be forgiven if and when Brexit goes wrong. Future generations will look back at what we did and damn us.

This is even more the case because of the new forces which have been driving history in the two years since our Brexit referendum. We are seeing the frightening collapse of the liberal post-war ‘global’ economic order and the emergence in plain sight of a fist-brandishing system of protectionist blocs.

In this new and dangerous environment, it is folly to rely on the World Trade Organization (WTO). Yet the WTO is fundamental to the Brexiteer economic model. Under attack from Donald Trump’s America and Xi Jinping’s China it is losing the ability to ensure a free market of goods and services. In the Trump and Xi world, relying on the WTO to ensure free trade is like relying on the United Nations to protect human rights: all they can offer are well-meaning but impotent resolutions. When Xi met EU leaders on his visit to Europe last week, I suddenly felt alarmed that Britain wasn’t there.

Finally – and without naming them – I must state that there are many MPs (and not a few journalists) still marching under the Brexit banner who will read this article with a sympathy and support they do not feel able to declare. They too have changed their minds.

I have, and must say so. Fair enough (you may think), but where is the ringing declaration of love for the European Union? We have seen the passionate beliefs of the Brexiteers. Where’s your own positivity? Where your matching passion for Remain?

I have none. Only a deep, gnawing worry that we are making a significant mistake: a worry that is growing by the hour.

[Combe Up]

Never heard of him. I haven't changed my mind.

It took 41 years between the two UK referendums asking whether to stay in the European club not. Look at differences between that European club - 1975 to 2016. What do you think the difference will be 2016 compared to 2057 (another 41 years)? Whatever, we would not have a chance to extricate ourselves.

The vote was decisive: a majority of 1,269,501. Time to leave. Any future relationship between UK and EU can be dealt with after UK has left.

Think strategically, not selfishly.

[Batch]

2% swing on a flawed and possibly illegal campaign isn't decisive. That's always been the point.

the rest is just guesswork. if it really goes South as you suggest it'll be obvious and far stronger leave vote will ensure this mess can't happen again.

[michael]

It took 41 years between the two UK referendums asking whether to stay in the European club not. Look at differences between that European club - 1975 to 2016. What do you think the difference will be 2016 compared to 2057 (another 41 years)? Whatever, we would not have a chance to extricate ourselves.

I have no idea what it will look like. Jacob Rees Mogg was quite informative on this front last week though when he said that in the EU we can “veto any increase in the budget, obstruct the putative EU army and block Mr Macron’s integrationist schemes”. Are any of those what you are talking about?

(https://mobile.twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1114086264024727554)

[horlock07]

I just don't get the argument that we must plough on destroying the economy obliviously just to placate a few noisy fascists in high vis jackets, I always thought the British way was to stand up to bullying liars, it seems that within certain generations this trait of Britishness has been lost, thankfully it seems to be reemerging with the younger generations today. Am I the only one to think it strange that apparently Britain won the last two world wars entirely on its own, and therefore should relish the prospect of no deal, while simultaneously it should be terrified of no brexit in case a few hundred raving racist twats kick off?

The whole argument that having the EU elections would cause some sort of crisis in the Tory party is frankly laughable, if you as a party think your whole existence is at risk by having democratic elections, I think its probably a sign of a more deep seated problem and that you should possibly not consider yourself a political party anymore, or at least one within a democratic environment.

In other news of the crap mthis whole process has become....

https://twitter.com/ProfDanielMuijs/status/1114565952711090179

Seems a pretty mundane story as I know many are little bothered of the trauma many are suffering probably even now thinking that Daniel is a scrounging immigrant, however, this gentleman is Professor Daniel Muijs, Deputy Director of Ofsted - the UK Government Office for Standards in Education, Children's Services and Skills, who has been working in UK Universities since 2000 - our system is just great isn't it  - Windrush has never really ended.

In lighter news this guy is marvellous, not a jot of sympathy for him.... https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1114954083511808006

[jayohaitchenn]

The WW2 rhetoric is fucking bollocks from boomers who didn't live it anyway. If you're 50 - 65 and sharing memes on facebook about "saving Europe in the war" then just fuck off. You'd have had to have been born in 1923 to be old enough to fight, so around 96 years old now.

The actual WW2 generation are as pro EU as generation x, and nearly as pro EU as millenials.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/04/05/britains-wartime-generation-are-almost-as-pro-eu-as-millennials/

[Reg Smeeton]

I just don't get the argument that we must plough on destroying the economy obliviously just to placate a few noisy fascists in high vis jackets, I always thought the British way was to stand up to bullying liars, it seems that within certain generations this trait of Britishness has been lost, thankfully it seems to be reemerging with the younger generations today. Am I the only one to think it strange that apparently Britain won the last two world wars entirely on its own, and therefore should relish the prospect of no deal, while simultaneously it should be terrified of no brexit in case a few hundred raving racist twats kick off?

The whole argument that having the EU elections would cause some sort of crisis in the Tory party is frankly laughable, if you as a party think your whole existence is at risk by having democratic elections, I think its probably a sign of a more deep seated problem and that you should possibly not consider yourself a political party anymore, or at least one within a democratic environment.

Although it's easy to throw the blame for the current mess onto opportunists like Johnson, there has been a steady drift rightwards in the general population in recent years...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/08/uk-more-willing-embrace-authoritarianism-warn-hansard-audit-political-engagement

in that sense he's just riding on to the sort of attitudes now generally prevalent in polite society, and promoted by some on the TEF.

Is there hope in the younger generations?  I'm not so sure.