Let's Get Political!

[Ardiles]

Perhaps not.  It's UK government's casual disregard for peace in Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement - rather than the EU's concern for it - that bothers me the most.

The bottom line, though, is it's the EU - and not the UK - that is exerting its influence in a way most likely to maintain the peace.  That will not be forgotten in a hurry.

[chalkies_shorts]

Quite simply as a nation we have embarrassed ourselves. The EU have pissed all over us by standing their ground. Without being serious about a no deal, we had fuck all and the EU knew it. ll they had to do was nothing.
The withdrawal deal will pale into insignificance with the trade deal where the EU have an even stronger hand, if possible. We will be totally screwed and they've got fishing and Gibraltar lined up as well as God knows what else. Saltmayer has made his views pretty clear.
Because of this I'd like no deal, other than this remain. I don't think there is a middle ground that is favourable to us, plenty that are to the EU. 
 

[horlock07]

Perhaps not.  It's UK government's casual disregard for peace in Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement - rather than the EU's concern for it - that bothers me the most.

The bottom line, though, is it's the EU - and not the UK - that is exerting its influence in a way most likely to maintain the peace.  That will not be forgotten in a hurry.

I think in terms of the EU its part of the wider support they are showing to Ireland as a member state, further laying waste to this idea being punted about that they are planning to throw Ireland under the bus to give us concessions to get a deal.

The total disregard shown to Scotland will also not be forgotten, its a small sample I know but the 3-4 Scots I know well were all anti independence until the last 6 months or so, now very keen to scarper at the first opportunity.

[horlock07]

Quite simply as a nation we have embarrassed ourselves. The EU have pissed all over us by standing their ground. Without being serious about a no deal, we had fuck all and the EU knew it. ll they had to do was nothing.
The withdrawal deal will pale into insignificance with the trade deal where the EU have an even stronger hand, if possible. We will be totally screwed and they've got fishing and Gibraltar lined up as well as God knows what else. Saltmayer has made his views pretty clear.
Because of this I'd like no deal, other than this remain. I don't think there is a middle ground that is favourable to us, plenty that are to the EU. 
 

Pretty much summed up why I chose to vote remain, I have no great love for the EU as a mechanism but I couldn't really identify anywhere where it had a particularly negative effect on my life, plenty of areas where it caused a positive to me and others and I could not see any benefits in leaving that would offset the inevitable economic and social shitstorm it would unleash.

[Peter Venkman]

Pretty much summed up why I chose to vote remain, I have no great love for the EU as a mechanism but I couldn't really identify anywhere where it had a particularly negative effect on my life, plenty of areas where it caused a positive to me and others and I could not see any benefits in leaving that would offset the inevitable economic and social shitstorm it would unleash.

Same as me for pretty much exactly the same reasons.

[Bob's Orange]

Realistically, how long do people think leaving the EU 'properly' would take?

Its become clear that 2.5 years is not nearly enough to work these things out. With hindsight I am sure Cameron would have done things differently but what time frame is sensible? 5 years,7 years, 10?

[Ardiles]

Quite simply as a nation we have embarrassed ourselves. The EU have pissed all over us by standing their ground. Without being serious about a no deal, we had fuck all and the EU knew it. ll they had to do was nothing.
The withdrawal deal will pale into insignificance with the trade deal where the EU have an even stronger hand, if possible. We will be totally screwed and they've got fishing and Gibraltar lined up as well as God knows what else. Saltmayer has made his views pretty clear.
Because of this I'd like no deal, other than this remain. I don't think there is a middle ground that is favourable to us, plenty that are to the EU. 

Agree with most of that...but surely the principle reason that the EU has run rings around the UK in the 'negotiations' is not that they have been underhand or beastly in any way.  It's just that they're 10 times bigger than we are.  The terms of any negotiation are always going to be set by the larger party to those negotiations.

The 'they need us more than we need them' argument was always nonsense, and I'm surprised that it has not debunked/dismissed far sooner.  But the evidence is there now for all to see.  The EU was always going to control this process.  And what's more -  even if we do leave, the 90% of the EU as it currently exists that will then sit on our doorstep will continue to exert a gravitational pull from which the UK will never really escape.  Brexit is all about giving up control.

[Samdy Gray]

Realistically, how long do people think leaving the EU 'properly' would take?

To regain full independence and sovereignty with our own laws, regulations and trade agreements?

Decades.

[chalkies_shorts]

Agree with most of that...but surely the principle reason that the EU has run rings around the UK in the 'negotiations' is not that they have been underhand or beastly in any way.  It's just that they're 10 times bigger than we are.  The terms of any negotiation are always going to be set by the larger party to those negotiations.

The 'they need us more than we need them' argument was always nonsense, and I'm surprised that it has not debunked/dismissed far sooner.  But the evidence is there now for all to see.  The EU was always going to control this process.  And what's more -  even if we do leave, the 90% of the EU as it currently exists that will then sit on our doorstep will continue to exert a gravitational pull from which the UK will never really escape.  Brexit is all about giving up control.

Even as an ardent leaver, the "they need us more case" was bollocks as was the £350m and an easy trade deal. It was never going to be easy and yes it will try and a long while to be free as their tentacles are everywhere but it will get worse so take the pain now and get cracking.
There is no doubt in my mind we're headed for a united states of Europe with more countries and total political and financial integration.
Just as there are many flavours of leave, there are of remain. Many people say that those who voted leave didn't vote for no deal, there are those who voted remain did not vote for USE. I don't think there's much middle ground that is mutually beneficial. It's all in the EU's favour. If we want to leave, then fucking leave and let's stop clinging to their legs. If we're not prepared to do that then let's go for it and try and increase our influence within the EU rather than be the naughty boy at the back of the room.

[Sir red ken]

To regain full independence and sovereignty with our own laws, regulations and trade agreements?

Decades.

It may well take decades but we need to leave in March and not put off regaining our independence. Otherwise the UK will be trapped in never ending membership of an organisation the people don't want to belong. The stance of the eu has proved how much they dislike the UK and only want its money. We know so much more 2 years on about their mindset and so we need to leave first and cut off the money supply. Many remainers and young voters can see the eu ponzi scheme for what it is, they don't want a deal or a second vote, the majority want out. The only sad part is those in Westminster  who make money from the eu don't want to lose that cash flow and are going to spunk away democracy for self interest. The vote to leave was by the people and for the people, its time to be free.

[Reg Smeeton]

 Here's a small example of the reasons for the right wing leave campaign....

 https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/17362773.oak-furnitureland-parent-company-due-in-court-over-alleged-health-and-safety-breaches/?ref=mr&lp=8

 The 2002 legislation referred to that OFL have allegedly come up short on is in response to an EU directive.  There's plenty of examples in our history where workers are considered expendable, and any deaths etc, while unfortunate often cannot be helped, and there will be others willing to do the work from the pool of available labour.

 Such H and S laws are what the right consider as "red tape" get in the way of profit and we have to compete with those less sniffy about such matters.

So for example the Qataris for the next WC, not too bothered by the deaths of construction workers.... it's estimated that if a minutes silence was held for each dead worker the first 44 games would be played in silence.

The Brexiteers hope to be able to withdraw from such legislation, in order to give UK an edge, in the desire for Liam Fox's aim of England becoming like Singapore.

Of course it can be argued which if you like is the Lexit position, that we don't need the EU to introduce such legislation on the environment  H and S worker's rights etc,  a Labour government can do that, it's just that in the case of things like  the so called Swindon disease mesothelioma.... it never happened.

[horlock07]

There is no doubt in my mind we're headed for a united states of Europe with more countries and total political and financial integration.

Without the support of all members that is never going to happen, as the Walloons proved with the trade deal they essentially killed in the water, member states have the power to veto just about everything if their governments don't want it to proceed, see also the nonsense about Turkey joining (which was actually being driven mainly by the UK), our government has chosen not to and then rather than take them to task we have chosen to take our ball home in a huff, whilst still voting for same political leaders.

[horlock07]

The Brexiteers hope to be able to withdraw from such legislation, in order to give UK an edge, in the desire for Liam Fox's aim of England becoming like Singapore.

Ah Singapore, where it only started to improve once it gained independence from the British, 39% of its population are foreign nationals and the majority of housing is social housing. Sure Brexiters will love that!

If the EU is such a basket case that we will apparently be better out of for theb good of 'the people' how does that tie in with the 2018 poverty rates within the EU....

UK: 23.2%
Spain: 22.3%
Greece: 21.2%
Italy: 20.6%
Portugal: 19.0%
Poland: 17.3%
Ireland: 16.6%
Germany: 16.5%
Sweden: 16.2%
Belgium: 15.5%
France: 13.6%
Norway: 12.3%
Denmark: 11.9%
Finland: 11.7%

[Reg Smeeton]

Without the support of all members that is never going to happen, as the Walloons proved with the trade deal they essentially killed in the water, member states have the power to veto just about everything if their governments don't want it to proceed, see also the nonsense about Turkey joining (which was actually being driven mainly by the UK), our government has chosen not to and then rather than take them to task we have chosen to take our ball home in a huff, whilst still voting for same political leaders.

The enlargement of the EU particularly eastwards was driven by the UK...the aim to increase the pool of available labour prepared to work for lower wages and longer hours.

With Brexit as Farage pointed out that labour will now come more from the sub continent.... particularly India, who don't need a trade deal without some sort of visa relaxation.

A regards greater integration, UK has always been semi detached from the EU project and there was much talk of a 2 division EU, a core who may wish for greater integration in Div 1 and a more semi detached group who might be considered Div 2.

The Labour 2015 manifesto pledge was that any new "constitutional" EU matters like that would be put to referendum

[Wobbly Bob]

Island mentality coupled with the constant glorification of having given the French, Germans, Spanish et al what for in conflicts, in some cases dating back hundreds of years.

If the UK was still attached to the mainland then there wouldn't be problem with 'Europe'.