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Author Topic: Let's Get Political!  (Read 1996651 times)
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« Reply #4425 on: Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:06:20 »

Can't agree there Bernie. They are quite rightly putting the pressure back on us, looking after their Union and discouraging other countries from doing the same as we are.

They may soften before March 29th, but they are right to play tough right now.
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Don't see how a change of Government will improve things myself.
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Berniman
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« Reply #4426 on: Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:11:23 »

Can't agree there Bernie. They are quite rightly putting the pressure back on us, looking after their Union and discouraging other countries from doing the same as we are.

They may soften before March 29th, but they are right to play tough right now.
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Don't see how a change of Government will improve things myself.

Not saying I agree a change of government will help, just can't see May surviving for the long term.  Ultimately I want to see (whatever scenario comes to fruition) somebody in there that has the balls to stand up and challenge the EU.  If we would have had somebody like that a few years ago, perhaps the word "Brexit" would not exist today.
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“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.” ― Marcus Aurelius

When somebody shouts STOP! I never know if it's in the name of love, if it's HAMMER TIME, or if I should collaborate and listen...
pauld
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« Reply #4427 on: Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:12:03 »

The hard line stance that the EU is taking on not being willing to negotiate in any way, and threatening to put all sorts of stipulations in place with regards to trading and travelling between the UK and EU - I hope any future PM (whatever party, whether we remain or leave, no deal or some kind of deal) remembers the hard line stance that the EU is taking and has the balls to reciprocate in the future.  Though I understand their stance somewhat, the way they are going about it is similar to a spoilt brat walking off with the ball..
Seriously? Not a massive fan of the EU, but tbf they've negotiated for 2 years with a country that pressed the button without any plan for what we wanted from the negotiations, then went into the negotiations with our hands tied by a PM who had painted herself into a corner with an arbitrary and contradictory set of "red lines" to keep her fragile coalition of religious zealots, hard right nutters and the rest of the party onside, we still haven't managed to decide what we actually want and as of yesterday May was apparently unable to actually explain to Merkel et al what it was she wanted. Whether the EU wanted to negotiate or not is something of a moot point as the UK just hasn't had a coherent position throughout so we've ended up with a cobbled together deal that protects the EU's interests as we still can't decide what our interests are. The only spoilt brats in here, I'm afraid, is us. Or rather our "leaders".
« Last Edit: Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:13:37 by pauld » Logged
Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #4428 on: Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:14:20 »

The concerted push to kill May's deal is almost over.  The push to kill the WTO 'no deal' option (which does not have support in the country and will never get through parliament) will then follow.  The 2nd Referendum will then be all that is left.

The thought of a second ref, fills me with dread. I see no good in it, the divisions currently in the country and between the constituent parts of the uk will harden, and won't be resolved.
« Last Edit: Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:17:18 by Reg Smeeton » Logged
Berniman
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« Reply #4429 on: Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:17:20 »

Seriously? Not a massive fan of the EU, but tbf they've negotiated for 2 years with a country that pressed the button without any plan for what we wanted from the negotiations, then went into the negotiations with our hands tied by a PM who had painted herself into a corner with an arbitrary and contradictory set of "red lines" to keep her fragile coalition of religious zealots, hard right nutters and the rest of the party onside, we still haven't managed to decide what we actually want and as of yesterday May was apparently unable to actually explain to Merkel et al what it was she wanted. The EU have tried to negotiate but the UK just hasn't had a coherent position throughout. The only spoilt brats in here, I'm afraid, is us. Or rather our "leaders".

I refer to my previous post.  I am not saying that the EU is in the wrong in their stance, more the way they are going about it, this is all on us and the fuckwits that lead us to this situation.  My point was more what comes next, somebody that is strong enough to take us through the next period whatever that may be.  Unfortunately I am not sure that such a person currently exists at the moment.
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“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.” ― Marcus Aurelius

When somebody shouts STOP! I never know if it's in the name of love, if it's HAMMER TIME, or if I should collaborate and listen...
pauld
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« Reply #4430 on: Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:22:04 »

I refer to my previous post.  I am not saying that the EU is in the wrong in their stance, more the way they are going about it, this is all on us and the fuckwits that lead us to this situation.  My point was more what comes next, somebody that is strong enough to take us through the next period whatever that may be.  Unfortunately I am not sure that such a person currently exists at the moment.
Fair enough. While the idea of of essentially starting again with someone halfway competent in charge and considerably more knowledge of what Brexit would actually entail is attractive, I'm not sure even if there were such a person, that that option is really there any more. I suspect we'll end up crashing out by default just purely because no-one can agree to any of the alternatives, even though most of the major participants agree that that's their least desired scenario, apart from the hard-right fringe of the ERG who have wanted that all along. I'll give them this, they've taken caucusing to heights that even Militant would have admired.
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Ardiles

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« Reply #4431 on: Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:22:27 »

The thought of a second ref, fills me with dread. I see no good in it, the divisions currently in the country and between the constituent parts of the uk will harden, and won't be resolved.

Same here.  But I think it's where we're heading, in all probability.  We're soon going to learn what it's like to live in a chronically divided society, I think.  Like NI a few years back, but (hopefully) without the weaponry.
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« Reply #4432 on: Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:25:47 »

The thought of a second ref, fills me with dread. I see no good in it, the divisions currently in the country and between the constituent parts of the uk will harden, and won't be resolved.

I would be inclined to agree, however both Ireland and Denmark have, in the past, had referendum on EU matters, it gone one way then when reality bit about what the result would really entail had another and its gone back the other way, this has been done with no civic unrest and both countries are oft quoted as the happiest in Europe, so perhaps its just us....

There is a lot of background to this, much which has little to do with the EU sadly... this sums it up rather... https://twitter.com/PoliticoRyan/status/1073226614773829632
 
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horlock07

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« Reply #4433 on: Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:30:11 »

Fair enough. While the idea of of essentially starting again with someone halfway competent in charge and considerably more knowledge of what Brexit would actually entail is attractive, I'm not sure even if there were such a person, that that option is really there any more. I suspect we'll end up crashing out by default just purely because no-one can agree to any of the alternatives, even though most of the major participants agree that that's their least desired scenario, apart from the hard-right fringe of the ERG who have wanted that all along. I'll give them this, they've taken caucusing to heights that even Militant would have admired.

Its worth bearing in mind that we keep hearing it trotted out that the EU is being bullying and won't negotiate, that's total bollocks. The EU did negotiate, last December, and finalised a deal that was agreed by our Government, what is happening now is that as they cannot agree amongst themselves, our government is trying to reopen negotiations to their benefit and entirely understandably the other side is telling them (ever more stridently it would appear) to bugger off!

In terms of the negotiation the problem has never been the EU, its been the bloody Tory party being unable to negotiate with itself! It sadly appears the case that its the Tory right and strident Brexiteers who simply cannot grasp the idea that EU thinks Ireland, one of its member states, is more important than them.
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pauld
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« Reply #4434 on: Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:33:27 »

Its worth bearing in mind that we keep hearing it trotted out that the EU is being bullying and won't negotiate, that's total bollocks. The EU did negotiate, last December, and finalised a deal that was agreed by our Government, what is happening now is that as they cannot agree amongst themselves, our government is trying to reopen negotiations to their benefit and entirely understandably the other side is telling them (ever more stridently it would appear) to bugger off!

In terms of the negotiation the problem has never been the EU, its been the bloody Tory party being unable to negotiate with itself! It sadly appears the case that its the Tory right and strident Brexiteers who simply cannot grasp the idea that EU thinks Ireland, one of its member states, is more important than them.
Completely agree, that's what I was trying to say (badly). I was very 50/50 at the time of the vote, and I still think there is a cogent argument for a well planned and properly thought out Brexit. Sadly that isn't what we're going to get. As a nation we have been badly let down by shambolic leadership, of both the govt and the opposition
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pauld
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« Reply #4435 on: Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:45:01 »

Meanwhile I see the ongoing privatisation of every aspect of public life has pulled off another stunning win for taxpayers the shareholders of Capita

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46561779
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jayohaitchenn
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« Reply #4436 on: Friday, December 14, 2018, 14:05:14 »

Capita are the fucking worst.
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #4437 on: Friday, December 14, 2018, 14:25:29 »

Today is the 100th anniversary of women being able to vote in a GE.

 Our own Edith New deserves a mention.....

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_New
« Last Edit: Friday, December 14, 2018, 14:32:50 by Reg Smeeton » Logged
Sir red ken

« Reply #4438 on: Friday, December 14, 2018, 15:54:12 »

Capita are the fucking worst.
Crapita as they are known.
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #4439 on: Saturday, December 15, 2018, 11:57:10 »

 I see the Archbishop of Canterbury is getting his bishops to say prayers for our politicians.... asking for them to be able to show courage, integrity and clarity. 

 Some might say what's politics to do with him, but the bishops do sit in the House of Lords.... 26 of them, the Lords Spiritual
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