Let's Get Political!

[BambooToTheFuture]

A VONC would serve little purpose as I suspect it wouldn't pass, mainly as it would need some Tories to revolt and they would potentially be setting themselves up to fight an election that they might lose their seats in, never underestimate self preservation!

  

Very true but also consider that there may well be several Tories fed up with the whole debacle and want out of Westminster altogether. It has become quite the House of Jesters and anyone serious (in any party) right now doesn't even seem to be getting a look in.

What do they earn £80k pa? plus expenses (yep normal ones). I'm sure there are plenty of consultancy type jobs they could do? Product Manager, Consulting Manager, Marketing Manager, Head of Trading, Business Dev Manager and more. They all command a higher fee or similar than an MP.

Quite possible some would risk losing their seat (if they have their own contingency lined up), we must remember that self preservation goes beyond the doors of Westminster.

[Reg Smeeton]

Very true but also consider that there may well be several Tories fed up with the whole debacle and want out of Westminster altogether. It has become quite the House of Jesters and anyone serious (in any party) right now doesn't even seem to be getting a look in.

What do they earn £80k pa? plus expenses (yep normal ones). I'm sure there are plenty of consultancy type jobs they could do? Product Manager, Consulting Manager, Marketing Manager, Head of Trading, Business Dev Manager and more. They all command a higher fee or similar than an MP.

Quite possible some would risk losing their seat (if they have their own contingency lined up), we must remember that self preservation goes beyond the doors of Westminster.

Often MP's will have other jobs outside of Parliament, or directorships or consultancies.... the MP's $, just a bit of pin money.

I was always of the Dave Nellist school of MPery...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-23289962

[REDBUCK]

Of course you were, so where did your donation end up

[Reg Smeeton]

Of course you were, so where did your donation end up

Meaning I approved of Nellist's approach, rather than I was an MP myself...

[horlock07]

Very true but also consider that there may well be several Tories fed up with the whole debacle and want out of Westminster altogether. It has become quite the House of Jesters and anyone serious (in any party) right now doesn't even seem to be getting a look in.

What do they earn £80k pa? plus expenses (yep normal ones). I'm sure there are plenty of consultancy type jobs they could do? Product Manager, Consulting Manager, Marketing Manager, Head of Trading, Business Dev Manager and more. They all command a higher fee or similar than an MP.

Quite possible some would risk losing their seat (if they have their own contingency lined up), we must remember that self preservation goes beyond the doors of Westminster.

The other issue is that there are apparently 117 Tory MP's who consider that she is not fit to lead the Tory Party, now it would be rank hypocrisy for them not to vote that she is not fit to run the country  

I'm dodging a meeting/photo opportunity with Tim Farron to write this nonsense. 

[horlock07]

We continue winning, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46560807 if rumours are to be believed May was interrupted whilst blathering on by Merkel who asked 'what specifically do you want us to do' and May was unable to answer the question.

She is either entirely useless or diabolically briefed.  

[Flashheart]

She wants legal assurances on the Irish backstop to help her deal get through Parliament, after she delayed a Commons vote in anticipation of defeat.

That's not the only objection to the deal though, is it?

Even if she were able to somehow get the reassurances that she wants, and others in parliament will accept those reassurances, what about the rest of the objections?

She doesn't seem to understand what the objections are. The DUP don't want a backstop at all, yet May ploughs on regardless as though that particular problem will just disappear. It's fucking bizarre.

[chalkies_shorts]

We continue winning, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46560807 if rumours are to be believed May was interrupted whilst blathering on by Merkel who asked 'what specifically do you want us to do' and May was unable to answer the question.

She is either entirely useless or diabolically briefed.  

I wouldn't rule out both. One thing that is pretty clear is that may has an inner sanctum of civil servants and does what they agree and then tells MPs.
I don't think this stops with the backstop. Get that agreed and there are other questions. For me, what are we paying £39b for when we haven't got a clue what the trade deal is. Mays deal cannot be delivered. She's flogging s dead horse. Don't forget there are those who voted for may who will vote down her deal.
We've either got to be fully in and await a united States of Europe or we're fully out with wto rules initially and hope for a decent trade deal with the EU which in reality won't be as generous as now but should be mutually beneficial but hopefully none of the other shit that attached to a free trade deal.
Nice to see unbiased BBC last night with 4 remainers and 1 leaver on question time.

[jayohaitchenn]

We're paying £39 billion for our existing commitments, it has fuck all to do with any future deal.

[horlock07]

I don't think this stops with the backstop. Get that agreed and there are other questions. For me, what are we paying £39b for when we haven't got a clue what the trade deal is. Mays deal cannot be delivered. She's flogging s dead horse. Don't forget there are those who voted for may who will vote down her deal.

See the answer from my learned friend above, as evidenced by all the 'go whistle' bollocks and then agreeing to pay when it was realised it was a commitment we had to pay.

We've either got to be fully in and await a united States of Europe or we're fully out with wto rules initially and hope for a decent trade deal with the EU which in reality won't be as generous as now but should be mutually beneficial but hopefully none of the other shit that attached to a free trade deal.

As it stands we are quite capable of staying in and vetoing any perceived USof Europe (and SRK's army if it were ever proposed) through our membership, once we become rule takers outside we have no control over anything.

WTO rules (which don't actually exist see https://www.explaintrade.com/blogs/2018/12/11/world-trade-deal which is worth aread for everyone to be honest) are not the band aid they seem to be being sold as by JRM etc, its going to batter farming and fishing in a couple of years unless our negotiators can reach agreements to take these sectors outside standard WTO mechanisms really quickly (which on present performance I am not holding my breath on) plus I just don't get this idea that we are hamstrung by 27 EU nations but apparently all is going to be fine when we are dealing with 160+ countries (including some that are even more of a Banana Republic than we are). Oh and its going to basically cease to have any purpose in the next few years if Trump gets his way.  

Nice to see unbiased BBC last night with 4 remainers and 1 leaver on question time.

Good to see Brexiteers are finally finding out that feeling, see below . The BBC have a very weird view of the need for balance, hence for example when they put Nigel Lawson up against a climate scientist on Climate change and give equal weight to the views expressed.

[horlock07]

I make no apologies for quoting Ian Dunt at length, as he has a habit of summarising the situation (and I know he is for remain) but in this case it goes way beyond taking sides...

That's it. There's no more. The song's over, the music has stopped, the clean up crew is sweeping up the rubbish. It's done.

Theresa May's Brexit is dead. We can't waste anymore time pretending otherwise. There is no other story to invent. There is no argument or fabricated bit of Westminster nonsense which can allow us to suspend our disbelief a moment longer.

Last night, in another national humiliation which should pain us but to which we are becoming alarmingly accustomed, the prime minister spoke to EU leaders for an hour only for them to toughen up their position from what it was beforehand. It is astonishing. She is like an anti-lobbyist. The deals she promotes actually become worse by contact with her presentation.

EU leaders were actually quite warmly disposed towards May when she entered the room. They recognised the difficulties back home. They want the deal to pass. But after an hour of her insipid, meaningless rhetoric and relentlessly evasive political gymnastics, they'd turned cold.

Incredibly, one of the things May asked for was a one-year limit on the backstop. Does she truly still not understand what it is? Is there any thinking whatsoever, any basic competence or appreciation of detail, taking place in Downing Street?

The backstop is an insurance policy, designed to protect Ireland against the consequences of Britain's perpetual indecision and the lies of the Brexit jihadis who have taken over the country. To ask for a one year limit now suggests a total failure of comprehension about the matter under discussion and the reason it exists.

Not only could May not secure it, she did not even have any ideas for how it might be achievable if she could. When one EU leader asked how she imagined the target would operate, she had no answer. It's not even as if this is a particularly difficult question. But her team had not considered it. The truth is they'd had to promise it to Tory MPs to survive on Tuesday and now came to plead for it in Brussels on Thursday, with nothing but their own desperation as leverage. What a mockery of what this country used to be.

The failure is now too severe to be restricted to May alone. Anyone advising her, anyone in the negotiating team, must bear the heavy load of it. This is a national humiliation.

Not only would the withdrawal agreement not be reopened, but the draft summit conclusions were rewritten to toughen-up the EU's stance on the UK. Paragraph three was changed to remove an assurance that the backstop was not a "desirable outcome" for the EU and then bolstered with refreshed commitments on the integrity of the single market. The section in paragraph five which promised to examine whether "any further reassurance" could be provided was instead changed to increase preparations for no-deal.

There is no need for further discussion. May has no content. There is nothing behind the facade. For the last two and a half years Remainers and Brexiters alike have imagined her to have secret plans which will trap people this way or push them that. It's all nonsense. She has nothing. Among her many failings, she is neither intelligent nor well-prepared. The emperor has no clothes, nor skin, nor vital organs.

She cannot get changes at the EU after the meeting last night. She cannot be unseated by her own party after the failed no-confidence attempt on Wednesday. She cannot get her deal past the Commons after her cowardly refusal to bring it on Tuesday. There is no movement anywhere.

Her current timetable is to wait until January 21st, in six weeks, before bringing something back. That is not acceptable. Even if there was a credible plan, it would be a generous timeframe. But there is not, so it is insane. It is, quite simply and demonstrably, not in the national interest to wait that long so that she can try some other shabby mechanism to prolong her political survival.

If she won't go and her party will not get rid of her, then parliament needs to step in. The time is now. Not on January 21st. Not even after Christmas. It should happen immediately.

There should be an immediate motion of no-confidence against the government. In any sane world this would pass. Any MP who will not vote for the deal and does not believe she can improve it should vote for it as a matter of basic logic. But even if, as seems likely, the no-confidence motion does not pass, it sets a marker. There is no limit on how many of these votes can be held.

This should be supplemented by a guerrilla campaign trying to bring to a halt the basic functions of government: Amendments to the legislation which is still in the Lords and the Commons, opposition day debates, and the holding up of statutory instruments required to prepare for leaving the EU.

This is not irresponsible. The simple fact is that there is no functioning government so it should not be allowed to pretend otherwise. Parliament must take back control.

If not now, then when?

See http://www.politics.co.uk/

[Batch]

We're paying £39 billion for our existing commitments, it has fuck all to do with any future deal.

No, but Brexiteers gleefully say if we don't agree the exit deal we can keep the 39 Billion and got to WTO.

Of course the IMF says best case that'll wipe 5% off GDP compared to remaining. 5% of 2.6 trillion....

[Ardiles]

Bloomberg: How Ireland Outmanoeuvred Britain on Brexit

[Berniman]

I rarely get involved in this political debate, but one thing I will say is:

The hard line stance that the EU is taking on not being willing to negotiate in any way, and threatening to put all sorts of stipulations in place with regards to trading and travelling between the UK and EU - I hope any future PM (whatever party, whether we remain or leave, no deal or some kind of deal) remembers the hard line stance that the EU is taking and has the balls to reciprocate in the future.  Though I understand their stance somewhat, the way they are going about it is similar to a spoilt brat walking off with the ball..

[Ardiles]

The concerted push to kill May's deal is almost over.  The push to kill the WTO 'no deal' option (which does not have support in the country and will never get through parliament) will then follow.  The 2nd Referendum will then be all that is left.