Let's Get Political!

[RedRag]

Funny that "economic pain" was not predicted by Leavers before the referendum. 

There were no leave campaigners, callers, posters, tweeters etc asserting "it will be well worth the pain" before the referendum.

The premiss was that Leave would bring in decent money from saved EU contributions coupled with the advantageous effect of trade deals with mainly white ex-colonies and the USA.

As a bonus, we could look forward to the "easiest deal in history" with the EU because we "held all the cards". Nothing before the referendum about joining Mauritania and trading on WTO terms only.  If that is the outcome, I really do hope more than 50% will feel they have "got their lives back"

[Reg Smeeton]

Funny that "economic pain" was not predicted by Leavers before the referendum. 

There were no leave campaigners, callers, posters, tweeters etc asserting "it will be well worth the pain" before the referendum.

The premiss was that Leave would bring in decent money from saved EU contributions coupled with the advantageous effect of trade deals with mainly white ex-colonies and the USA.

As a bonus, we could look forward to the "easiest deal in history" with the EU because we "held all the cards". Nothing before the referendum about joining Mauritania and trading on WTO terms only.  If that is the outcome, I really do hope more than 50% will feel they have "got their lives back"

I think the economic hit was pretty well outlined during the Ref debate period.... the only issue was how much and for how long.

That the lumpen mass of Brexiteers thought it worth making most of themselves poorer, in order to get a handle on immigration is impressive... OK it's a shame that most of the rest of us will get poorer, but that's the way it goes.

The irony is as I pointed out somewhere early in the debate, it won't make much differnce to immigration, which is mainly from outside the EU. 

[RedRag]

uncontrolled EU immigration - down
controllable non EU immigration - up

I really believe that the market controls EU immigration very well.  That the ratio of job vacancies for skills needed here to the number of immigrants is a better, easier and cheaper control than civil servants relying on out of data Government data and internal directives.

Not as socialist as some   and not as migrant-phobic as some others.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey]

After all the chaos, after all the public humiliation a Sky poll reveals that twice as many of the people polled think Mrs May would do a better job of Brexit than Corbyn.

Wow!

[RobertT]

uncontrolled EU immigration - down
controllable non EU immigration - up

I really believe that the market controls EU immigration very well.  That the ratio of job vacancies for skills needed here to the number of immigrants is a better, easier and cheaper control than civil servants relying on out of data Government data and internal directives.

Not as socialist as some   and not as migrant-phobic as some others.

Which is precisely how the freedom of movement is supposed to work, bringing gradual balance to a wider market.  Obviously those in the UK, Germany and France would prefer to bring everyone else up, but it was always likely it would cause some richer countries to stifle wage growth (as they can source resources from lower cost EU countries).  At the same time, those poorer countries should have, and in some cases have seen, greater riches as a result.  Where the EU has failed, thus far, is how to manage those shifts in people - Poland reacted to the loss of their own people seeking improvement, and there own backfill with external migrants by moving Right, rather than understanding how to milk that system.  I know it's more complex than that, but the unwillingness to open up to the totality of the EU concept is what causes the pain, which I never saw changing in the UK, hence thinking getting out was the right thing for the country, politically.  You cannot possibly think it's good for the economy though, that just makes no sense.  The expansion of the economies of the Global Powers has been as a direct result of trade.

[RobertT]

After all the chaos, after all the public humiliation a Sky poll reveals that twice as many of the people polled think Mrs May would do a better job of Brexit than Corbyn.

Wow!

To be fair, he is carrying a party that would want to remain while holding the directly opposite view himself.  They'd be a mess as well.  UKIP would be the only party in Unison if in Govt. right now - they'd also have us going back about 10 centuries and moving towards segregation if their current overtures for Tommy Robinson are anything to go by.

[Berniman]

After all the chaos, after all the public humiliation a Sky poll reveals that twice as many of the people polled think Mrs May would do a better job of Brexit than Corbyn.

Wow!

That says more about Corbyn than flattering May I think..

[Ardiles]

Corbyn has delayed and obfuscated for so long over Brexit now that very few people have confidence his ability (or his desire) to do anything about it.  He's all but removed himself from the debate.  He's a critic of the PM (just like everyone else), and nothing more.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey]

Which is why Labour are delaying a no confidence motion - they cant decide amongst themselves whether or not to back a 2nd referendum.

With all this chaos I think the only reasonable answer is a 2nd vote - as much as I hate to admit it

[horlock07]

Corbyn has delayed and obfuscated for so long over Brexit now that very few people have confidence his ability (or his desire) to do anything about it.  He's all but removed himself from the debate.  He's a critic of the PM (just like everyone else), and nothing more.

He is peddling the delusional crap that May has been peddling likewise, namely that a deal can be renegotiated within the next 4 months....

Magic Grandpa is as busted a flush as May is in this sorry shambles.

As for the idea that it would affect the way the rest of the world views Britain, hasn't that ship already sailed long ago, we signed up in December to the principle of a backstop and now are trying to wriggle out of it, May agrees various things in Brussels and then within a day various members of her government are saying we can choose to just ignore it, Johnson is now coming out again and saying we can just refuse to pay our bills and leave, and finally May agrees a formal withdrawal agreement and a couple of weeks later is back begging for it to be changed in our benefit!

I am not sure about the rest of the world not trusting us on international treaties, I would not buy something off EBay from Britain with our recent track record.

[horlock07]

Which is why Labour are delaying a no confidence motion - they cant decide amongst themselves whether or not to back a 2nd referendum.

With all this chaos I think the only reasonable answer is a 2nd vote - as much as I hate to admit it

They are delaying a no confidence motion as they are unlikely to get the 2/3 of parliament to support it as it would need a fair few Tories to vote no confidence in their own government to force it through, (thank Cameron for the FTP Act), there isn't going to be an election and unless Labour do something they are going to be as culpable as the Tories in this mess, at least with the Tories you always expect them to only care about the rich and screw the rest over, not sure whether Corbyn is just thick or just crazy!

[Batch]

Which is why Labour are delaying a no confidence motion - they cant decide amongst themselves whether or not to back a 2nd referendum.

With all this chaos I think the only reasonable answer is a 2nd vote - as much as I hate to admit it

there's that.

And my own opinion is that Brexit is potentially so toxic to a party, that whoever implements whatever we get is going to alienate a lot of people. Party before county after all.

[Reg Smeeton]

Corbyn has delayed and obfuscated for so long over Brexit now that very few people have confidence his ability (or his desire) to do anything about it.  He's all but removed himself from the debate.  He's a critic of the PM (just like everyone else), and nothing more.

The Labour Party has had no say in negotiations, therefore what the party policy is, and you can find it in the last election manifesto is of little relevance beyond a general outlining if coming to power, where an election is what 4 years off.... a week is a long time in politics.

The Brexit mess belongs solely to the Tories.... they called the Ref, many of them campaigned for out alongside such figures as Banks and Farage.

It isn't the Labour Party which is voting down May, rather her own MP's, the hard Brexit brigade are firmly on the right of the Tories.

[Ardiles]

The Labour Party has had no say in negotiations, therefore what the party policy is, and you can find it in the last election manifesto is of little relevance beyond a general outlining if coming to power, where an election is what 4 years off.... a week is a long time in politics.

The Brexit mess belongs solely to the Tories.... they called the Ref, many of them campaigned for out alongside such figures as Banks and Farage.

It isn't the Labour Party which is voting down May, rather her own MP's, the hard Brexit brigade are firmly on the right of the Tories.

Agree with all that (& especially the bit in bold).  The Tories are rightly going to pay the heaviest price for the situation we are now in.  When they finally go, they could be out for a generation.  And when they come back at some point in the (hopefully distant) future, it could well be under a different name...so tainted/tarnished will the brand have become.

Not aiming to pin any of this mess on Corbyn.  But I am frustrated that he's not taking a more active role in finding a way out of it.  He seems happy enough to watch Theresa & pals roll around in their own s### while passing around the popcorn.

[BambooToTheFuture]

Not aiming to pin any of this mess on Corbyn.  But I am frustrated that he's not taking a more active role in finding a way out of it.  He seems happy enough to watch Theresa & pals roll around in their own s### while passing around the popcorn.

Well it has an old and sensible adage but wasn't it Napoleon that said;

“Never interfere with your enemy when he is making a mistake.”

Indeed. Corbyn does not have to make any move. He didn't put us in this mess. The Tories did. Cameron to be exact - then he cut loose when it all went tits up billy ho.