Let's Get Political!

[Ardiles]

Not sure what the point is of leaving if we then basically join the EFTA? The elephant in the room for many, free movement, would remain unaltered and we would become a rule taker not maker. OK fishing would come back (0.5% of GDP - less than the bicycle industry in the UK) , but we export most of the fish we catch and import most we eat so its just creating ballache for the sake of it and it would take us outside of the CAP which again seems using a sledgehammer to crack a nut as whilst we do pay more in than we take out, farmers would still need to be supported from somewhere, and Goves direction of travel is all a bit tree huggy for many?

BTW not sure why Norway gets all the plaudits, what about Iceland and Liechtenstein?

...which, in a nutshell, is why I voted to remain.  A hard Brexit was always going to be nearly impossible to achieve, and extremely damaging if it was somehow achieved.  We're linked economically and institutionally with our nearest neighbours whether we like it or not.  That's the geopolitical reality.

[horlock07]

There is a surprising divergence between the Government's full legal advice on Brexit and the previously released summary of it. Who would have thunk it.....   There seems to be nothing in there to support their argument that it shouldn't be released and coincidentally its dated the same day that labour got the motion through for it to be released to parliament?

And after all of yesterday, Magic Grandpa didn't mention Brexit once in PMQ's....

[Batch]

There is a surprising divergence between the Government's full legal advice on Brexit and the previously released summary of it. Who would have thunk it..... 

Soooooo, I guess the only way forwards for her deal is to get the indefinite nature of the backstop remove and add self removal from it as an option.

But isn't that going to be a bit tricky given Ireland, and could it also be used to force a hard Brexit in effect.

I mean not that we will need it, because negotiating will be easy.

[horlock07]

Soooooo, I guess the only way forwards for her deal is to get the indefinite nature of the backstop remove and add self removal from it as an option.

But isn't that going to be a bit tricky given Ireland, and could it also be used to force a hard Brexit in effect.

I mean not that we will need it, because negotiating will be easy.

Which the EU is highly unlikely to agree to as they have tied us in knots entirely of Mrs May's own making!

They held 90% of the cards from day one (despite all the bollocks about blessed are the German car makers, they will save us'), but when she invoked A50 with no plan or idea of what the Conservative Party (its got nowt to do with 'the people', lets be honest) want she basically threw the pack of cards in the bin and pulled out Top Trumps Paw Patrol edition!

[Pax Romana]

No way of proving this, but I did hear some arguing that the Norway option possibly would be able to attract a majority.  Norway Plus basically = continued Customs Union & Single Market membership.  Problematic, certainly, but emerging as a possible end point.

Yes that's where Oliver Letwin and others are going.  Question is whether a deal that no-one really likes but most MPs don't totally hate can get through.  I also heard that the EU wouldn't agree to it but I don't understand why not.

The option that surely is supported by a majority of MPs in their hearts is a 2nd referendum in the belief that enough of the leave voters would 'have come to their senses" as they see it.    I doubt, however, that enough of them would be prepared to publicly vote that way and risk the wrath of their leaver constituents unless things got so bad that they could invoke some kind of national interest line.

[Pax Romana]

BTW not sure why Norway gets all the plaudits, what about Iceland and Liechtenstein?

I imagine it's because Norway is at least a recognisable country.  Difficult to see how "don't worry, we can be just like Liechtenstein" could pass the laughter test.

[horlock07]

She has genuinely said something, kicked off about Leave.EU using her quote and is now denouncing the tweet, quoting her quote, all within a couple of hours... Sadly they do not walk among us, they actually seem to be ruling us....



You will also note the careful imposition of George Soros in the background of the tweet, a nice artistic touch which has an air of Emmanuel Goldstein, but remember there is not at all, whatsoever, any sort of antisemitic angle to certain elements of the Brexit campaign.

[Reg Smeeton]

I imagine it's because Norway is at least a recognisable country.  Difficult to see how "don't worry, we can be just like Liechtenstein" could pass the laughter test.

Au contraire, Liechenstein's low tax status is just the sort of thing Brexiteers crave, we could be Liechtenstein-on-Sea

[horlock07]

Yes that's where Oliver Letwin and others are going.  Question is whether a deal that no-one really likes but most MPs don't totally hate can get through.  I also heard that the EU wouldn't agree to it but I don't understand why not.

I suspect its the plus bit where it starts getting rather cherry picking, which goes against the all in or out manner of being a member?

The option that surely is supported by a majority of MPs in their hearts is a 2nd referendum in the belief that enough of the leave voters would 'have come to their senses" as they see it.    I doubt, however, that enough of them would be prepared to publicly vote that way and risk the wrath of their leaver constituents unless things got so bad that they could invoke some kind of national interest line.

Does rather represent a get out of jail free option for them?

[Batch]

I can't see how allowing free movement, needed for norway+,  wouldn't cause a sizeable backlash among many leave voters.

It would of course be tough tits, but the next GE would be interesting.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey]

Freedom of movement seemed to be the driving force behind the vote to Leave.

Strangely, it’s not as simple as I thought. I was under the impression you could just rock up in any EU country of your choice and that was that.

Not so. I’m moving to Greece soon - before 29 March, anyway! - and if I intend to stay longer than 183 days - which I do - I have to apply for a Residency Permit.

Amongst other things, I have to prove I have a minimum income of €24,000 pa, have health insurance and prove I own a property or have a rental agreement. This isn’t just a Greek thing, it’s EU wide.

So, with these provisos, surely freedom of movement could, and should, stop a lot of the seemingly uncontrolled immigration that so many Leavers moan about.

Or is Government just not applying these rules. Obviously the income requirement would vary from country to country depending on the cost of living.

[Batch]

We've always had that level of control.
And over half of immigration comes from outside the EU.
And  many EU immigrants are useful, skilled workers (e.g. NHS).
And many that aren't work in jobs we don't want to do for shit wages and zero hours contracts (sports direct warehouse, car washes)

But on the down side, they have funny accents and some of them don't have white skin.
OK some are squeezing industries by driving down prices for work, undercutting the indigenous worker. But I wonder what % that really is.

[Batch]

Radio 4 this morning was a treat of why we, the people shouldn't decide. We are largely idiots.

Paraphrasing:
"yeah, we should get a businessman to do the negotiating. Alan Sugar, he'd get a good deal"
"The EU have made it hard. They aren't a Union at all, they're a big gang. I'm even more sure we should leave."
"We should rock up and say no deal, then turn our backs and walk out. You'd have 27 countries running over the hills to negotiate a deal"

[Pax Romana]

Freedom of movement seemed to be the driving force behind the vote to Leave.

Strangely, it’s not as simple as I thought. I was under the impression you could just rock up in any EU country of your choice and that was that.

Not so. I’m moving to Greece soon - before 29 March, anyway! - and if I intend to stay longer than 183 days - which I do - I have to apply for a Residency Permit.

Amongst other things, I have to prove I have a minimum income of €24,000 pa, have health insurance and prove I own a property or have a rental agreement. This isn’t just a Greek thing, it’s EU wide.

So, with these provisos, surely freedom of movement could, and should, stop a lot of the seemingly uncontrolled immigration that so many Leavers moan about.

Or is Government just not applying these rules. Obviously the income requirement would vary from country to country depending on the cost of living.

Does that really apply to EU people moving to the UK for an extended period?   £24k min income!  Health Insurance!!!!!

I have never heard of this and can't believe that it is simply that UK Govt has chosen not to apply rules.  This would surely have come up as part of the "people flooding in and undercutting Brits" argument?

[Batch]

actually I've made a rather large assumption that Greece's immigration requirements are available EU wide.