Let's Get Political!

[horlock07]

Nice to see that after two year our parliamentarians have finally woken up and remembered what their purpose actually is, there were some actually quite good speeches last night, perhaps there is hope yet.

I would imagine May is not that disappointed this morning as it allows her to bring the hard line nutters on board to possibly support her dreadful deal or risk either no brexit or another vote?

[Batch]

It'll be interesting which way the hard line nuts go now.

Seems Hard Brexit is ever more unlikely. On one hand some would want May's brexit over no brexit, but on the other Mays deal is so unpalatable to them that one or two have even said no Brexit is preferable.

Its either a genius strategy we are seeing being played out that will see something better rise, or a total clusterfuck of a clueless mess.

[horlock07]

It'll be interesting which way the hard line nuts go now.

Seems Hard Brexit is ever more unlikely. On one hand some would want May's brexit over no brexit, but on the other Mays deal is so unpalatable to them that one or two have even said no Brexit is preferable.

Its either a genius strategy we are seeing being played out that will see something better rise, or a total clusterfuck of a clueless mess.

The cynic in me would suspect a lot will depend on whether the deal can be revised to opt us out of the stricter tax avoidance/management controls being rolled out by the EU as that appears to be one of the reasons why the Tories are so desperate to get us out (or their backers at least)?

I don't really see where May can take any credit in this situation, it wasn't genius unless she played an incredibly long game deliberately stabbing Dominic Grieve in the back in the summer and lining him up to not believe her bullshit a second time around.

My money is on 'total clusterfuck of a clueless mess' and parliament finally growing a pair and remembering that history might not look too fondly on parliamentarians who led the country to an economic position that even the governments own forecasts stated would leave the majority worse off with no benefits to really speak of (IMO - I am no great fan of the EU, but I like having a job, I don't want to be worse off and want my kids to have the opportunities to work and travel I had).

In more broad terms I recall it being all about taking back control and securing parliamentary sovereignty and it was proven last night that despite the last few months parliamentary sovereignty is still alive and well, a happy day for everyone.

[Ardiles]

I am no great fan of the EU, but I like having a job, I don't want to be worse off and want my kids to have the opportunities to work and travel I had.

I have to quote this line of your post.  Really strikes a chord.  In a polarising debate that forces people to take a position on a binary issue, it can often be forgotten that there are many shades of grey in the middle.  Many of us arguing for remain are doing so because, on balance, that's where our judgment lies.  Like you - and many on the opposing side no doubt - I also have issues with the EU.  It's far from perfect.  But I have far greater problems with being on the outside and with the consequences of that.

[Batch]

I don't disagree with any of that Horlock/Ardiles

[Reg Smeeton]

I have to quote this line of your post.  Really strikes a chord.  In a polarising debate that forces people to take a position on a binary issue, it can often be forgotten that there are many shades of grey in the middle.  Many of us arguing for remain are doing so because, on balance, that's where our judgment lies.  Like you - and many on the opposing side no doubt - I also have issues with the EU.  It's far from perfect.  But I have far greater problems with being on the outside and with the consequences of that.

Yes, sage words.  UK was never fully in the EU, and can never be fully out.

This is like a John Beck v Pulis/Allardyce long ball argument about % ages. We'll probably end up with something like a Dyche version.  Greater cultural purity, but out of the Europa League at the qualifying stages, after failures in Greece and Turkey, and Scotland regarded as a foreign country.

[horlock07]

I don't disagree with any of that Horlock/Ardiles

I should hope not, remember Soros pays me a fortune to write it!

[Batch]

bloody puppet

[The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey]

The problem is that there is no majority in parliament for any of the options that may be available.

Mays Brexit
No Brexit
No deal at all
Second referendum
Norway style arrangement

[RedRag]

Well there's going to have to be a majority for some option after 2.5 years.

Rather than bother with referendum 2.0 (and a repeat of months of nauseating lying) could we just not have a draw (FA Cup - style) with Audrey's options and agree to stick with it.

I reckon there'd be a far bigger tv audience than for any sick-making Sunday night "debate"

[Batch]

every Brexit faction puts up a champion.

 The house of commons is turned into the Thunderdome, 2MPs in, 1MP out. 

Ties can be calculated FA Cup style.

There can be only 1.

[Ardiles]

The problem is that there is no majority in parliament for any of the options that may be available.

Mays Brexit
No Brexit
No deal at all
Second referendum
Norway style arrangement

No way of proving this, but I did hear some arguing that the Norway option possibly would be able to attract a majority.  Norway Plus basically = continued Customs Union & Single Market membership.  Problematic, certainly, but emerging as a possible end point.

[RedRag]

As a Remainer, that would be my second choice.

Nevertheless, Norway (Single Market) and Plus (Customs Union) looks awfully like the EU itself without the voting.  There's free movement and although the ECJ has no direct role there's little or no control on the rules of the Single Market.


It would be an absolute winner for business and would satisfy the Good Friday Agreement.  

For committed (but reasonable) leavers, I guess the challenge would be how we could exit the EEA Plus arrrrangement and presumably there may still be the same restrictions on NI being able to leave with the rest of the UK.

These arguments about the EU will be with us for decades regardless of the immediate outcome.

[horlock07]

No way of proving this, but I did hear some arguing that the Norway option possibly would be able to attract a majority.  Norway Plus basically = continued Customs Union & Single Market membership.  Problematic, certainly, but emerging as a possible end point.

Not sure what the point is of leaving if we then basically join the EFTA? The elephant in the room for many, free movement, would remain unaltered and we would become a rule taker not maker. OK fishing would come back (0.5% of GDP - less than the bicycle industry in the UK) , but we export most of the fish we catch and import most we eat so its just creating ballache for the sake of it and it would take us outside of the CAP which again seems using a sledgehammer to crack a nut as whilst we do pay more in than we take out, farmers would still need to be supported from somewhere, and Goves direction of travel is all a bit tree huggy for many?

BTW not sure why Norway gets all the plaudits, what about Iceland and Liechtenstein?

[Reg Smeeton]

 Will Norway have to sign up to the EU Army.... I was chatting to a SRK style Brexiteer last week, who was convinced that May's deal means his son will be conscripted into an EU Army, this seems to be the latest shibboleth of the far right.