Let's Get Political!

[RobertT]

If people voted leave but were not clear on the terms they'd be happy with, tough shit.  To me, the vote was always skewed more towards Remain than it should have been because of that fear of the economic impact.

[pauld]

But it's just as irresponsible not to prepare for the eventuality. As it is, we don't seem to have prepared for anything. Can we still hang Farage and Johnson for treason?

if you believe the government, they are preparing for it (yeah right).

but not pushing for it.

I don't

We have prepared.... originally Davis claimed to have lost the impact studies, but then found them, they're the ones about turning the M26 into lorry park, stockpiling food and getting the military involved...

Sorry, I meant preparing properly and in detail to make the best of it. Not just "We'd best have something on the back of an envelope in case it goes to shit, what do you mean most of our trade with Europe goes through Dover?" cobbled together panic measures

[Ardiles]

I still don't get why a good old Hard Brexit wasn't worked on...

Because there is no mandate for one.  If you ask a binary Remain vs Leave question and the votes come back in a 52:48 ratio, no-one in their right mind would interpret such a result by implementing the most extreme, separatist version of Leave.

I hope we've learned a few lessons about referenda from this debacle.  A vote that's 52% in favour of anything is not a ringing endorsement.  It's a signal that the electorate, collectively, does not know what it wants.  One way or another, a 52% vote in favour of anything will result in a miserable, fudged compromise that pleases no-one.  And this is precisely what is unfolding in front of us at the moment.

If, in future, a government ever decides to hold a referendum again on an important matter, it had better be sure that the winning side wins at least 60% of the vote.  Anything closer than 60:40 condemns us to endlessly revisiting the argument.  For all the talk of 'bringing the country together', this is now pretty much impossible.  Not sure that these divisions will ever heal - at least in my lifetime.

[RobertT]

Nev from The Call Centre should have been put in charge

[pauld]

Because there is no mandate for one.  if you ask a binary Remain vs Leave question and the votes come back in a 52:48 ratio, no-one in their right mind would interpret such a result by implementing the most extreme, separatist version of Leave.

Well I think some of the Brexiteers on here would and Rees Mogg definitely does. Oh sorry, you said no-one in their right mind. As you were

[RobertT]

Because there is no mandate for one.  if you ask a binary Remain vs Leave question and the votes come back in a 52:48 ratio, no-one in their right mind would interpret such a result by implementing the most extreme, separatist version of Leave.

I hope we've learned a few lessons about referenda from this debacle.  A vote that's 52% in favour of anything is not a ringing endorsement.  It's a signal that the electorate, collectively, does not know what it wants.  One way or another, a 52% vote in favour of anything will result in a miserable, fudged compromise that pleases no-one.  And this is precisely what is unfolding in front of us at the moment.


If, in future, a government ever decides to hold a referendum again on an important matter, it had better be sure that the winning side wins at least 60% of the vote.  Anything closer than 60:40 condemns us to endlessly revisiting the argument.  For all the talk of 'bringing the country together', this is now pretty much impossible.  Not sure that these divisions will ever heal - at least in my lifetime.

I would argue that more of the 48% would have agreed to leave if you offered up a mid way option, like we seem to be trying to finish on.  I do not think many of the 52% would have voted for that mid way option though.  Everyone I know who voted Leave did so expecting a complete exit.

[Ardiles]

I would argue that more of the 48% would have agreed to leave if you offered up a mid way option, like we seem to be trying to finish on.  I do not think many of the 52% would have voted for that mid way option though.

Only one way to find out, I guess.

Everyone I know who voted Leave did so expecting a complete exit.

Interesting.  I have he opposite experience.  Several friends who were adamant that leaving would still mean we could stay in the Single Market.  (Customs Union was not discussed to the same degree, if I remember rightly.)

[Reg Smeeton]

 I've said before the logic of the out vote was that we leave the lot.... it was understood at the time, and voted for. Further it was understood there would be an economic hit...  the length not really diiscussed but later JRM reckoned 50 years.

 The likely break up of the Union wasn't fully understood, but opinion polls have suggested that the English are not concerned about this, and in many cases are happy about it.... ceratainly had the Scots Ref been open to English voters they'd have probably got independence.

 As a Remainer, I accept I have 2 choices... leave the country as several friends and family have... or get on with it.  I'm in the latter group, now looking at a hard Brexit as a means of reordering our society on more socialist lines.

[Ardiles]

I've said before the logic of the out vote was that we leave the lot.... it was understood at the time, and voted for. Further it was understood there would be an economic hit...  the length not really diiscussed but later JRM reckoned 50 years.

 The likely break up of the Union wasn't fully understood, but opinion polls have suggested that the English are not concerned about this, and in many cases are happy about it.... ceratainly had the Scots Ref been open to English voters they'd have probably got independence.

 As a Remainer, I accept I have 2 choices... leave the country as several friends and family have... or get on with it.  I'm in the latter group, now looking at a hard Brexit as a means of reordering our society on more socialist lines.

Have to disagree fundamentally with the point in bold.  I think we've been over this before.  The Leave premise was understood in different ways by different people, as I see it.  It's part of the reason why we're currently in the mess that we're in.

[horlock07]

The likely break up of the Union wasn't fully understood, but opinion polls have suggested that the English are not concerned about this, and in many cases are happy about it.... ceratainly had the Scots Ref been open to English voters they'd have probably got independence.

That's not strictly correct, it was fairly clear that a) Scotland was remain and b) it would provide pennies from heaven for the SNP and other nationalists if they voted to stay but the overall was remain. I have a number of Scottish friends who all voted to stay in the union when they had their referendum but have gone completely the other way now, ironic that the Conservative and Unionist Party will facilitate the break up, but so be it. 

As a Remainer, I accept I have 2 choices... leave the country as several friends and family have... or get on with it.  I'm in the latter group, now looking at a hard Brexit as a means of reordering our society on more socialist lines.

As I assume you are retired its somewhat easier to get on with it compared with those who have been sold a pup and now find their jobs at risk and their kids futures uncertain. As for any idea of socialist reordering you are as naive as McDonnell and Corbyn, jobs will be lost at the bottom end, employment protects scrapped, its fairly clear that the Tory model is some manner of European Singapore (although even their president thinks we are mental), that hardly socialism is it? 

[horlock07]

If people voted leave but were not clear on the terms they'd be happy with, tough shit.  To me, the vote was always skewed more towards Remain than it should have been because of that fear of the economic impact.

Serious question, are you planning to come back to the UK?

[RobertT]

Not anytime soon, unless work has other ideas!

I've made it very clear my views or more Pro EU than the majority.  I also think I know where the country really lies on this subject.  Will life be better economically outside the EU, I doubt it very much, would a UK being solo stop me from living there, absolutely not.  I live 10 miles away from a sign that advertises for people joining the Confederate Sons of the South - madness is everywhere.

[pauld]

As for any idea of socialist reordering you are as naive as McDonnell and Corbyn, jobs will be lost at the bottom end, employment protects scrapped, its fairly clear that the Tory model is some manner of European Singapore (although even their president thinks we are mental), that hardly socialism is it? 

As Farage, Banks et al start to peddle the narrative of "Brexit betrayed" to the people who voted for their horseshit and who will suffer worst under it, national socialism is a more likely beneficiary.

[pauld]

I live 10 miles away from a sign that advertises for people joining the Confederate Sons of the South - madness is everywhere.

I hope you've been out and spray painted a massive cock and balls on it?

[RobertT]

I hope you've been out and spray painted a massive cock and balls on it?

They have guns, I tend to head North more and pretend I am part of Atlanta.