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Author Topic: Let's Get Political!  (Read 328003 times)
Wobbly Bob


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« Reply #3690 on: Thursday, October 4, 2018, 12:43:03 »

Maybe any 2nd referendum on the terms of the exit deal should be open only to those who voted leave.

In the interest of fairness they should also be the ones to bear the brunt of any costs associated with any resulting economic downturn, or to reap the benefits of the brave new world.

Also, ask them to wear a badge so that the rest of us know when to give up a seat on public transport.

Other than that, couldn't care less what happens next, although the completely shambolic nature of proceedings since the vote has been a source of great amusement.
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Sir red ken


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« Reply #3691 on: Thursday, October 4, 2018, 13:11:27 »

It said nothing of the sort. The question was do you want to remain in the EU, or leave the EU. Nothing whatsoever about the additional absolutist stuff you have added on.
I agree it said Leave the other stuff, I haven't added on, those remainers have. Just to confuse and push for a second vote.
If TM wants a deal we should leave first and get our UK house in order.
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Sir red ken


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« Reply #3692 on: Thursday, October 4, 2018, 13:14:15 »

Also, ask them to wear a badge so that the rest of us know when to give up a seat on public transport.

Why not make it a white star sewn onto leavers clothing.
As for making them pay for any ecconomic downturn, where do we send the invoice for all the ones we've had since being in the EU.
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pauld


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« Reply #3693 on: Thursday, October 4, 2018, 13:31:46 »

I agree it said Leave the other stuff, I haven't added on, those remainers have.
You did add it on:
The terms of leaving are simple, it said on the ballot paper accept Dave's sh1tty deal or leave everything. No deal, no Eu laws, no payments. We go by world trade laws.
None of that was on the ballot paper. It probably should have been - this is half the problem why we're in the mess we're in, because Cameron and Osborne were so arrogant in assuming that we'd all do as we were told they didn't even bother phrasing the question properly. So everyone seems to have their own version of what they think they voted for.
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RobertT


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« Reply #3694 on: Thursday, October 4, 2018, 13:45:40 »

To be fair to ken, he is spouting some god awful unintelligent shit, but one thing he is spot on about, in my view - get the fuck out.  Sever the ties and take the shit that comes with it.  Sort out the new relationship by all means, but not as something that HAS to be done before exit.

The country needs to take it's medicine now - work out if it really was that important.  I say this as someone who is so Pro EU I'd give up the UK parliament, just so my view is provided with context, and I know I am about 1% of the population, so accept the majority view, and have buggered off and left the mess (for another one, but I have the fun of discovery to distract me).

None of that makes it any less likely that a cluster fuck awaits, somewhere.  Might even see a change in Govt as a result, once people realise the current political systems in the UK are just as shit as the EU ones and have been all along.  The Mosques are not going to be pulled down because we left the EU for example - immigration from the countries people really were worried about will continue just as it did before, because it is that immigration we had complete Sovereignty over anyway.
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horlock07


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« Reply #3695 on: Thursday, October 4, 2018, 14:30:22 »

The terms of leaving are simple, it said on the ballot paper accept Dave's sh1tty deal or leave everything. No deal, no Eu laws, no payments. We go by world trade laws.

You do realise that there are no such thing as World Trade Laws, instead we are merely putting ourselves at the mercy of an entirely unelected body who oversee trade in the simplest terms which rather flies in the face of the whole 'sovereignty argument' as we will become a very small fish in a group of 164 members rather than being a rather large fish in a group of 28), thus successfully becoming the first country in the history of the world to, by our own volition, end up with a trade deal vastly inferior to what we presently have, turning ourselves into being the only country  revert back to a position of having no trade agreements with anyone, and at a time when Trump is actively seeking to bugger over the WTO (see his refusal to co-operate on appointments) so it will cease to be even relevant in around 2 years time, coincidentally around the time we will get very dependent upon it, way before we can manage to get anything sorted so essentially we will drop back to being, in trade terms, friendless in a very dynamic trading environment, but blue passports and all that.

To be fair to ken, he is spouting some god awful unintelligent shit, but one thing he is spot on about, in my view - get the fuck out.  Sever the ties and take the shit that comes with it.  Sort out the new relationship by all means, but not as something that HAS to be done before exit.

The country needs to take it's medicine now - work out if it really was that important.  I say this as someone who is so Pro EU I'd give up the UK parliament, just so my view is provided with context, and I know I am about 1% of the population, so accept the majority view, and have buggered off and left the mess (for another one, but I have the fun of discovery to distract me).

None of that makes it any less likely that a cluster fuck awaits, somewhere.  Might even see a change in Govt as a result, once people realise the current political systems in the UK are just as shit as the EU ones and have been all along.  The Mosques are not going to be pulled down because we left the EU for example - immigration from the countries people really were worried about will continue just as it did before, because it is that immigration we had complete Sovereignty over anyway.

What many brexiteers don't seem to get is that even no deal is never going to get through parliament for the simple fact that to simply revert back to WTO jurisdiction and take the associated shit storm would come with the necessary imposition of a hard British Border in Ireland and the immediate trashing of the GFA with associated risk of taking us back into the 1970's, now we have some total tools in parliament but I think even they would struggle to get that one through.

The WTO has become the Utopia grasped by the Brexiteer charlatans as the solution to all the matters of detail they didn't think about whilst bullshitting to get the vote through, it basically solves nothing, yet Johnson JRM continue to be allowed to spout all and sundry in the media to persuade people that it will solve all that is delaying Brexit, it simply won't and is another red herring.
« Last Edit: Thursday, October 4, 2018, 14:47:45 by horlock07 » Logged
RedRag


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« Reply #3696 on: Thursday, October 4, 2018, 15:32:35 »

The WTO will not have any judges to enforce its rules by March 2019 if Trump holds true to his word.  

The apparatus of a rules-based world order, inc WTO, are looking flakier than ever.

Trump is busy unilaterally reneging on agreements, removing funding, disregarding international judgements, imposing tarrifs and generally threatening the weak or isolated:

   Iran Amity Treaty
   Climate Change Accord ,
   UNRWA,
   UN,
   ICJ,
   ICC,
   Steel  and other Tarrifs on China, EU (inc UK) and Canada  
   NAFTA

See how the USA has treated its other special friend, Canada, in tearing up NAFTA and as a result practically imposing the USMCA.

See US threats to "third countries" unwilling to co-operate with its demands on steel, Iran sanctions etc.  

Freedom in today's global world is the prerogative of the big beasts, ie USA, EU, China and Russia (militarily).

It isn't fair.

You can yearn for the reign of Queen Victoria or more recently of Emperor Hoxha of Albania but otherwise "sovereignty" is not on offer to small or medium sized entities because only the big beasts can resist or even impose their will.  Conjuring up imagery of the spirit of the Blitz is certainly now irrelevant to UK's future after Brexit.  

Far, far worse, cheap metaphors grossly disrespect the real sacrifices made by many of that generation.
« Last Edit: Thursday, October 4, 2018, 15:35:46 by RedRag » Logged
bamboonoshoe


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« Reply #3697 on: Thursday, October 4, 2018, 21:54:36 »

I agree with Nick.
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bamboonoshoe


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« Reply #3698 on: Thursday, October 4, 2018, 22:00:49 »

All the squabbling aside...once the murky, foggy, smog has settled (can fog settle? No it's just a cloud that you are in.) I do wonder...will our tax thresholds go up a fair bit? As we become an attractive offshore location. I'm not talking Gibraltar style proportions here but could we actually see some taxes dropped? Like Wealth Tax/Sales Tax etc.

It's not really a definitive question and it's open for discussion but my feeling is, if we're going to have any sort of relationship then the UK is going to have to open it's kegs and whore itself, surely?  Hmmm << For Reg Smiley
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #3699 on: Friday, October 5, 2018, 01:31:35 »

All the squabbling aside...once the murky, foggy, smog has settled (can fog settle? No it's just a cloud that you are in.) I do wonder...will our tax thresholds go up a fair bit? As we become an attractive offshore location. I'm not talking Gibraltar style proportions here but could we actually see some taxes dropped? Like Wealth Tax/Sales Tax etc.

It's not really a definitive question and it's open for discussion but my feeling is, if we're going to have any sort of relationship then the UK is going to have to open it's kegs and whore itself, surely?  Hmmm << For Reg Smiley

We already do that.... we chose to pool certain aspects of sovereignty, for reasons of national interest. On joining the Common Market, HMG took on board VAT.... this replaced the UK Purchase Tax, which was levied on mainly luxury items.

HMG has leeway on its rate. Rees Mogg has stated that one of the aims of Brexit is to abolish VAT on female sanitary products currently rated at 5%.... I'm hopeful that in 6 months time, we might not have to pay 20% tax on bog paper.
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horlock07


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« Reply #3700 on: Friday, October 5, 2018, 10:08:17 »

All the squabbling aside...once the murky, foggy, smog has settled (can fog settle? No it's just a cloud that you are in.) I do wonder...will our tax thresholds go up a fair bit? As we become an attractive offshore location. I'm not talking Gibraltar style proportions here but could we actually see some taxes dropped? Like Wealth Tax/Sales Tax etc.

It's not really a definitive question and it's open for discussion but my feeling is, if we're going to have any sort of relationship then the UK is going to have to open it's kegs and whore itself, surely?  Hmmm << For Reg Smiley

Interesting you mention Gibraltar which seems to have been entirely forgotten in the whole circus, apparently 95% of their waste is disposed of in Spain so perhaps will become less attractive with waste on the streets unless we dispatch a gun ship to collect it. 
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The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey


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« Reply #3701 on: Friday, October 5, 2018, 10:45:07 »

Surely, if they just leave their rubbish out in the open, those Barbary Apes will eat it all.
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Wobbly Bob


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« Reply #3702 on: Friday, October 5, 2018, 12:06:18 »

Surely, if they just leave their rubbish out in the open, those Barbary Apes will eat it all.

Ssshhh. You'll be giving councils over here ideas.
A pool of very cheap labour, possibly with some discipline issues, but what the hell, give them a go.

Theresa May's Barbary Army.
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bamboonoshoe


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« Reply #3703 on: Friday, October 5, 2018, 21:50:03 »

Interesting you mention Gibraltar which seems to have been entirely forgotten in the whole circus, apparently 95% of their waste is disposed of in Spain so perhaps will become less attractive with waste on the streets unless we dispatch a gun ship to collect it. 

I hadn't forgotten good old Gibraltar. It does the beg the question though...Has our Government. In fact we stopped giving a hoot about them a while ago. Which is why they enforced many of their own financial ideals. I think I read, if you're a fairly wealthy Brit and have 2m floating around, you can invest your money in Gibraltar and only face tax capped at about 30K. That's 1.5% as a quick guess. I think that's based on being granted CAT-2 status/residency.  Even for a self employed worker the tax is ever higher than 29% no matter how much you earn.

Anyway, our Gov has started getting twitchy about Gibraltar probably because several in  parliament have "vested interests" at the Rock.
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Ardiles


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« Reply #3704 on: Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 11:12:16 »

I have a question.  If, as seems probable, the Chequers deal advocated by Theresa May is rejected by Parliament - would we then simply default to a No Deal Brexit position?  I have heard ERG/hard Brexit-supporting politicians suggest that this would be the case.

The reason I ask is that there are others who suggest that, if the Chequers deal is rejected, it could bring down the government and force a General Election.  But how do they draw this conclusion?  What is the mechanism by which that would happen, and why could the Conservatives not just soldier on if that happened?

Thanks.  (More than one question there, I know.)
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