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Author Topic: Let's Get Political!  (Read 291024 times)
horlock07


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« Reply #3450 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:15:37 »

Well a) the question related to what the Brexit process had cost us, so your post didn't actually answer the question and b) as we have get a decent proportion of what we have paid to the EU back both as rebate but also as funded projects the figures are essentially just pointless posturing without any context to them? So as with much from the leave side it is not exactly heavy on fact.

But never fear, my five year old will still be paying for this now comparatively pointless charade (as we are essentially becoming a rule taker and giving up our place to influence these rules) until she is at least 51 so that's taught her....  Roll Eyes
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Legends-Lounge


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« Reply #3451 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:22:49 »

Well a) the question related to what the Brexit process had cost us, so your post didn't actually answer the question and b) as we have get a decent proportion of what we have paid to the EU back both as rebate but also as funded projects the figures are essentially just pointless posturing without any context to them? So as with much from the leave side it is not exactly heavy on fact.

But never fear, my five year old will still be paying for this now comparatively pointless charade (as we are essentially becoming a rule taker and giving up our place to influence these rules) until she is at least 51 so that's taught her....  Roll Eyes

My point is any money handed over to the EU is a waste. I do not and never have supported the EU. Trade, fair enough all for it. Co operation, yes I think we can co operate quite easily. Political union and a superstate I cannot support.
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horlock07


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« Reply #3452 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:32:49 »

My point is any money handed over to the EU is a waste. I do not and never have supported the EU. Trade, fair enough all for it. Co operation, yes I think we can co operate quite easily. Political union and a superstate I cannot support.

Considering just how many jobs it sustains in the UK in terms of agriculture, industry (Airbus etc) and the like, I am not sure it can be considered a waste, - I have been involved in projects that have spent 10's of millions on various urban and rural regeneration schemes over the years all of which has been invested in the local economies where the schemes have occurred.

As for political union etc, never seen any evidence that that was ever likely to happen, it might be the ideological objective of certain technocrats but people forget (or choose to ignore) that for anything to pass it needs the agreement of all 27 member states (hence why all the fuss about waves of Turks coming in from just another component of Project Fear), and as those pesky Walloons proved with the US trade deal it only takes one state to veto and it kills everything, now if we had stayed in we could have veto'ed any closer unity which might affect us, however as our government seem to be, at best, setting us up to be a dependent rule taking state it could happen and we have no control.

Our leaders can posture all they like but there is not the majority to get a 'no deal' through parliament - and may be even less if the Tories continue today's attempts to shatter the party which could lead to an election with a Tory hard right rump that even the DUP nutters don't have enough seats to prop up.

It would all be hilariously funny if it wasn't my and my kids future that was being gambled with, by leaders who appear barely capable of independent thought.
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Ardiles


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« Reply #3453 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:42:08 »

I don't remember any of these soft brexit options on the ballot paper, it was Dave's rubbish deal or out. Now the remainiacs, working for their masters, want a brexit in name only. May always wanted to stay and campaigned as such. She's been given the PM's job to stop the UK leaving and is doing everything she can to see that happen. At least that evil gloabalist george soros can see his money is being well spent.

You're right...the terms of Brexit were not on the ballot paper.  That's why the country is in the mess that it's in now.

The Customs Union & Single Market were not mentioned on the ballot paper - and different people said different things before the vote about what the implications would be for each.  'Soft Brexit', 'Hard Brexit'...not on the ballot paper.  It was a straight in/out choice.  The terms of the trade relationship (which is the bit we're all talking about here) were assumed. Discussed verbally, but never formalised.

Our grandchildren will learn about this period in history one day and will marvel at the crass incompetence of those involved.  An exercise in how not to do it.
« Last Edit: Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:57:32 by Ardiles » Logged
Legends-Lounge


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« Reply #3454 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 17:01:00 »

You're right...the terms of Brexit were not on the ballot paper.  That's why the country is in the mess that it's in now.

The Customs Union & Single Market were not mentioned on the ballot paper - and different people said different things before the vote about what the implications would be for each.  'Soft Brexit', 'Hard Brexit'...not on the ballot paper.  It was a straight in/out choice.  The terms of the trade relationship (which is the bit we're all talking about here) were assumed. Discussed verbally, but never formalised.

Our grandchildren will learn about this period in history one day and will marvel at the crass incompetence of those involved.  An exercise in how not to do it.



‘The terms of Brexit were not on the ballot paper.’ Neither were the terms going forward to remain. In other words we know what is on offer from the EU now, five years time? Ten years?
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Ardiles


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« Reply #3455 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 17:24:23 »

Surely that supports the argument that you cannot assume nature of the future relationship with EU from the ballot alone?  This is precisely what the Hard Brexit wing of the Tory party (& one or two others from other parties) are doing.  Leaving is one thing.  It's happening.  The terms of the future relationship are still up for discussion though.  Sadly, you cannot unlink these two things.  But no-one thought of that.
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Ardiles


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« Reply #3456 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 17:26:45 »

Further to that...the Leave side's strategy, clearly, was to get out first - and then work out the details from there.  They planned it this way all along, thinking they would jump the first hurdle and then muddle through somehow when they came up against the rest.  That decision is coming back to haunt them.
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Thingie


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« Reply #3457 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 17:29:06 »

what if the EU is stronger in 5 or 10 years....
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Audrey's Bellend


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« Reply #3458 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 17:31:07 »

So, is there time for a General Election? The Tories could be happy for Corbyn to win and leave him to ultimately fuck up Brexit.

There are really only 2 options. Leave with nothing agreed or not leave at all. Fudges are the worst outcomes.
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horlock07


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« Reply #3459 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 17:35:44 »


There are really only 2 options. Leave with nothing agreed or not leave at all. Fudges are the worst outcomes.

That's highly unlikely to pass parliament so not really an option, sadly the EU worked that out months ago, unlike our leaders....
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horlock07


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« Reply #3460 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 17:36:44 »

Just to put the fear of god into you all..... Taken from the BBC

'Michael Gove remains favourite to succeed Boris Johnson as foreign secretary but bookmaker Ladbrokes says a rush of bets on Jeremy Hunt has seen odds on his appointment shorten considerably.'
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RobertT


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« Reply #3461 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 17:42:17 »

I think it is fair to say that the EU has provided more economic benefit than cost, financially.

The question is whether economic alone is enough.

For me, the vote was a simple one, In or Out.  Personally, the country should just quit, take the financial pain and work out the new world after exiting.

Horlock - there is and always has been a clear path for what is now the EU and it does look like a loose Super State - you cannot achieve the original stated goals without harmonisation of policy.  Personally, I'm all for it, countries are useless things, with random lines drawn across the land on maps creating tension and fighting.

I do know that I am odd, and for that reason we should just get out and be done with it.

I m fairly certain that if a vote were held on JOINING the EU, it would probably be less than 50% in favour.  Too many of the those that wanted to remain were simply for Economic reasons, which is fine, but means we'd never shake the constant whining about the EU approach to life, telling us what shape Banana's had to be, and the Mail would keep on peddling sufficient myths to make it so.
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RobertT


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« Reply #3462 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 17:47:14 »

I'm all for a Tory implosion as well, but the Labour Party are only surviving because they are not in power.  Their own Leader is a natural Brexiteer, with a membership probably in favour of Brexit but MP's largely in favour.  The Unions only like the EU because of the Social Policies that were pushed.  The world is being shifted arse about face right now, left is right, right is left, the centre vacated and far too much fear.
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Ardiles


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« Reply #3463 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 17:55:55 »

If there is a positive to come from all of this, it must be that finally people are waking up to the fact that there is a trade off.  Leaving the EU and all of the associated structures may well be a principled (to some) & ideologically pure decision.  But there will also be a massive price to pay economically.  But that message was artfully obscured by claims of a 'Brexit Dividend' and £350m/week to the NHS.

There are many of us on the Remain side of the argument that recognise problems with the EU, but simply feel that the cost of leaving is too high.  I wish my sentiments were more noble than that, but they're not.  It's a pragmatic (rather than a dogmatic) position.  When proponents of a 'no deal' Brexit suggest that as a serious option, I question whether they have really thought things through.  Sovereignty will not put food on the table.
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Legends-Lounge


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« Reply #3464 on: Monday, July 9, 2018, 18:09:59 »

what if the EU is stronger in 5 or 10 years....

On past form 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
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