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Author Topic: Let's Get Political!  (Read 277896 times)
horlock07


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« Reply #2955 on: Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 17:35:25 »

I have no idea what they really stand for any more.  Whether you supported them or not, two things that you could always be sure the Tories stood for were (a) the Union; and (b) the interests of Corporate UK.

As you say, the Conservative and Unionist Party is now doing more to dismantle the UK than any other political party (including the SNP). 

And they are also now consistently and unambiguously choosing to fight against all of the massed evidence to suggest that a hard Brexit will inflict immense harm on the economy and on living standards.  Their reputation for economic competence will be trashed for decades...and they don't seem to care.  It's completely & utterly extraordinary.

As pointed out previously (actually it might not have been on here Cheesy but I said it somewhere) we have the absurd position that a radical socialist party leader is better representing the wishes of big business (the CBI, the IoD etc) than the Tory Party.

World has gone mad, I tell thee.  Hmmm
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #2956 on: Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 17:53:59 »

As pointed out previously (actually it might not have been on here Cheesy but I said it somewhere) we have the absurd position that a radical socialist party leader is better representing the wishes of big business (the CBI, the IoD etc) than the Tory Party.

World has gone mad, I tell thee.  Hmmm

Not exactly surprising... these businesses are mostly widget makers, who shift stuff around for manaufacture and sale etc. Out of necessity they have to employ workers, hence the mutual interest.   The Tories are more the party of bankers and hedge fund operators, who don't make anything, beyond profits and bonuses and are already supranational.
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RedRag


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« Reply #2957 on: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 02:12:17 »

One only has to see the fact that May is responding to the EU drafting of the withdrawal bill to show what a complete fuck up the government have made, the first rule of any legal negotiation (day one of law school) is to make sure your side drafts the legal document as it always give you the upper hand in subsequent negotiations, we have had 18 months to do this and delivered nothing, the public have no idea what the government wants and this draft is merely the EU have given up and had to do it themselves, its frankly fucking embarrassing the manner in which our elected leaders are approaching this, be it sheer ineptitude or an attempt to force parliament to consider a no deal hard brexit, which has little chance of passing parliament anyway
What a lot of interesting posts!

Amidst all the genuine divisions we have over Brexit, it is this negotiating amateurism that is so pitiful. 

It is OUR Brexit.  We should espouse a vision.  We should define the agenda and shape it with detail.  Forcing the EU to react to our proposals. Letting the EU respond as best they can to our agenda - with a few negotiable red lines of their own.

But no.  It is always the EU, almost reluctantly, setting out the structure of the negotiations, filling in the timetable, picking the phase one issues and then putting in the summary for everyone's benefit - but of course for their own benefit, who else's.

Its always passive....we won't agree to this....well you don't reveal all of your hand.  If this were a boardroom, the company would be taken over.  As it is, we muddle on.
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Pax Romana


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« Reply #2958 on: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 09:24:34 »

Amidst all the genuine divisions we have over Brexit, it is this negotiating amateurism that is so pitiful.  

It is OUR Brexit.  We should espouse a vision.  We should define the agenda and shape it with detail.  Forcing the EU to react to our proposals. Letting the EU respond as best they can to our agenda - with a few negotiable red lines of their own.

But no.  It is always the EU, almost reluctantly, setting out the structure of the negotiations, filling in the timetable, picking the phase one issues and then putting in the summary for everyone's benefit - but of course for their own benefit, who else's.

Its always passive....we won't agree to this....well you don't reveal all of your hand.  If this were a boardroom, the company would be taken over.  As it is, we muddle on.

It is a virtually impossible hand that we've voted ourselves.  We must get out of the club but still reap the benefits of being in the club.  We must retain an open border with Eire but at the same time be able to control our borders. 

But for all the difficulties imposed on the government by the electorate this is still a shambles and, as said, breaks the most basic rules of successful negotiating.  This is the problem when you have a pm who is an effective and conscientious implementation manager but a lousy leader.

« Last Edit: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 09:29:20 by Pax Romana » Logged
pauld


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« Reply #2959 on: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 09:42:14 »

What a lot of interesting posts!

Amidst all the genuine divisions we have over Brexit, it is this negotiating amateurism that is so pitiful. 

It is OUR Brexit.  We should espouse a vision.  We should define the agenda and shape it with detail.  Forcing the EU to react to our proposals. Letting the EU respond as best they can to our agenda - with a few negotiable red lines of their own.
That's because we don't have a vision, because the whole clusterfuck was always about sorting out a faction fight in the Tory Party. The morons and opportunists who led the charge to Leave (and are now in charge of Brexit) didn't bother with a vision because they didn't think they'd need one, because they never expected to win. And didn't especially want to, they were just positioning themselves to lead the Tory party to the right. So why bother with a vision or a policy or anything other than vague handwaving and tub-thumping? Detail is hard. The other thing that unites the Brexit faction of the cabinet is their utter laziness - even now they can't be arsed to actually think any of this shit through, far easier to let the EU lead and then garner more of those splendid "Hands off our cheese/fish/Northern Ireland, says Boris" headlines, even if it does mean selling those industries and regions down the shitter as you do so.
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RedRag


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« Reply #2960 on: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 11:36:41 »

Agree entirely.

The Government has completely failed in its pursuit of the Brexit vote.  Its duty is to govern not to go round in circles for 2 years.

Whilst respecting the existence of a significant Just Leave on WTO terms belief, there was never a majority of all the people, leavers and remainers, for that.  A referendum is not like an election where the winning party gets all of its policies as a package (as determined by the dominant group within that party) even though its supporters may not have approved of every policy.

The referendum mandated leave and it was then incumbent of the Government to implement that in a practical way in line with the good sense and moderation of the British people as a whole rather than the ideologues amongst one half of the electorate.

It is now a complete lottery as to what happens next, the merits of which which we can all argue.  Our lack of attention to detail and the needlessly prolonged uncertainty caused by the Government's lack of direction has however been a joke and a clusterfuck.  


« Last Edit: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 11:42:31 by RedRag » Logged
pauld


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« Reply #2961 on: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 12:09:12 »

Agree entirely.

The Government has completely failed in its pursuit of the Brexit vote. 
The opposition haven't exactly covered themselves in glory, either. The whole political class has been quite pathetic in the way they've responded to people failing to do what they're told by those who think they know best.
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RedRag


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« Reply #2962 on: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 12:55:02 »

Less concerned with the Opposition's performance.

Complacent perhaps as it is possible I could need to become very concerned.

It's not right for an adult, I know, but my main concern right now is on what happens next for us in League 2 Pint
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pauld


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« Reply #2963 on: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 14:37:46 »

It's not right for an adult, I know, but my main concern right now is on what happens next for us in League 2 Pint
Au contraire, that is the only sane response to these worrying times. But I wouldn't worry about any of it tbh because we're clearly all going to die in the coming snow-pocalypse
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« Reply #2964 on: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 14:45:02 »

The opposition haven't exactly covered themselves in glory, either. The whole political class has been quite pathetic in the way they've responded to people failing to do what they're told by those who think they know best.

Must be difficult for both parties to try to find themselves an electable Brexit stance, while flapping around trying not to totally fuck the union in the process.

May had a good go at "throwing" Brexit by taking a dive, but nobody in their right mind wants to pick that loaded gun up.
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RobertT


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« Reply #2965 on: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 15:32:46 »

I'm guessing the parties are walking a fine line because their voters were split on the Brexit vote - they don't really know which way to turn.
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pauld


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« Reply #2966 on: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 16:02:38 »

I'm guessing the parties are walking a fine line because their voters were split on the Brexit vote - they don't really know which way to turn.
Maybe they could try some leadership? Not the pre-referendum "Do what you're fucking told because we know best, oiks" shit, but some actual leadership. Crazy talk I know
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #2967 on: Friday, March 2, 2018, 17:34:01 »

That's unlike any politician!

I have John Redwood... Firmly in the out camp and has remained vocal on it despite the fact the majority of his constituents voted to remain.

Redwood has written a piece for the Graun as to the advantages for us Brits in the EU accepting a vague deal outlined by May today...

 "I also look forward to the day, after a clean Brexit such as the one described by the prime minister, when the UK parliament can abolish VAT on feminine hygiene products, green products including heating controls and draught excluders...."
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horlock07


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« Reply #2968 on: Friday, March 2, 2018, 17:39:44 »

Redwood has written a piece for the Graun as to the advantages for us Brits in the EU accepting a vague deal outlined by May today...

 

Did she outline a vague deal, sounded to me like spouting a complete load of bullshit in the vague hope that she can keep the ultra hardliners on board whilst actually saying jack shit, whilst merrily kicking the Irish Border down the lane once again - and if she doe ever sort Ireland she has Gibraltar to deal with yet which could make Ireland look like a walk in the park!
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #2969 on: Friday, March 2, 2018, 17:48:07 »

Did she outline a vague deal, sounded to me like spouting a complete load of bullshit in the vague hope that she can keep the ultra hardliners on board whilst actually saying jack shit, whilst merrily kicking the Irish Border down the lane once again - and if she doe ever sort Ireland she has Gibraltar to deal with yet which could make Ireland look like a walk in the park!

I think so.... well sort of vaguely outlining a vague deal.  But the EU is a political construct so our departure will have to be done politically.
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