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Author Topic: Let's Get Political!  (Read 1996407 times)
Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #2910 on: Monday, February 26, 2018, 18:58:16 »

So you're quick to assume which side of immigration my friend works in? You're better than that Reg.

Yes although I was pretty young then, the Salman Rushdie affair was quite a starter but I think we all know after "September 11th" there became a media frenzy on isolating anyone with a combined disposition of a beard and different coloured pigment. Especially within the western world. Things are so ridiculous now that even when I grow my beard to certain lengths I get sideways glances in pubs and at train stations and airports. That could however, be be also to do with looking like I've just crawled out of a hedge  Pint

No assumption about sides, just when presented with evidence even if anecdotal, I like to put it to scrutiny of bias, before giving it due consideration.
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horlock07

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« Reply #2911 on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 12:37:32 »

This. So many people (that I've spoken to, who voted leave) seem to think that by separation/leaving that immigration will disappear! The fact is, it's really a non-issue. I did some research about a year ago on UNHCR figures and advice from a Lawyer friend who works in this very area. The numbers and the costs is negligible to something like less than 2p per year, per UK taxpayer, to cover the cost of any miniscule benefit someone MAY receive. I used to call it the Coffee cup theory (ie, anyone whoever throws their coffee/tea change on the floor every now and again 2p/5p, can't really complain about the cost of immigration). It's a diversionary social "problem" to stop joe public concentrating on other more serious things like TPP, which no doubt we resurface after all this.

The scaremongering into belief that "every" asylum seeker is a Muslim and therefore a terrorist is ridiculous. Again it's targeted hate to distract the public. Before September 2001 I don't remember people being afraid of Muslims or trying to stop people from wearing what they want. I thought, our nation (even the world) was more intelligent than this. I thought, we had got past silly, sheep mentality stigma. Of course, we all know what thought did. Unfortunately herd/pack mentality, which is very much ingrained within our evolutionary development, means there will always be an element of; Monkey see, monkey do (or chimp see, chimp do to be more accurate).

My wife's family are from West Yorkshire and I know for a fact that many in her wider family voted to leave purely on the basis that they seem tho think it will mean fewer brown faces around.

Likewise isn't it fairly well evidenced that Tax take from immigration vastly exceeds any costs from benefits that they may receive, indeed the idea that EU immigrants come over here to just claim benefits is a complete nonsense as the governments own rules prevent it?

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pauld
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« Reply #2912 on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 12:51:59 »

My wife's family are from West Yorkshire and I know for a fact that many in her wider family voted to leave purely on the basis that they seem tho think it will mean fewer brown faces around.
Well it may well do as fewer people will be able to afford to go abroad on holiday Smiley
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #2913 on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 12:59:16 »

My wife's family are from West Yorkshire and I know for a fact that many in her wider family voted to leave purely on the basis that they seem tho think it will mean fewer brown faces around.

Of course the irony here is that even Farage pointed out that EU immigrants would be replaced by more immigrants from Africa and the sub continent.  It may have been a cynical ploy to pick up the ethnic leave vote.
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Arriba

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« Reply #2914 on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 13:24:53 »

Of course the irony here is that even Farage pointed out that EU immigrants would be replaced by more immigrants from Africa and the sub continent.  It may have been a cynical ploy to pick up the ethnic leave vote.

This is happening already. Last week on the radio was mentioned that immigration into the UK from EU nations was down, EU citizens leaving the UK was up, non EU immigration into the UK up. All since the Brexit referendum results.
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BambooToTheFuture

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« Reply #2915 on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 14:41:21 »

My wife's family are from West Yorkshire and I know for a fact that many in her wider family voted to leave purely on the basis that they seem tho think it will mean fewer brown faces around.

Likewise isn't it fairly well evidenced that Tax take from immigration vastly exceeds any costs from benefits that they may receive, indeed the idea that EU immigrants come over here to just claim benefits is a complete nonsense as the governments own rules prevent it?



Yep, the tax "exchange" by far exceeds from immigration. Of course we aren't naive to think there are no bad people in the world. There are, and yes some will, shock horror come from immigration. The trouble is, it's easy to paint a picture of "big bad stranger from strange soil". Many of my Mother and Father's family (my aunts and uncles, et al) while all quite genuine people, have an underlying touch of racism, which I believe resonates with a lot of people across the county. It's totally unreasonable obviously, because not one person born into the world has any control of where they happen to be born, none of us. It's for that reason I can't understand why people are the way they are towards someone who looks a bit "different". It's bloody childish. I loved it when the recent news about Cheddar Man came out.

 There are never many mainstream headlines about immigrant professionals, that have had to retrain here at cost, because for some reason a Doctor or Engineer from Non-EU countries and some selected EU countries aren't as clever or good at that role. However if you're from US, Canada, AUS, NZ (which are all Non-EU let's remember) etc you can transfer your professional skills. I understand certain accreditation has to be met and that is the norm for Doctors even changing role in the U.K. In the main it's highly discriminatory to say, an Iranian professional who could have 10 years experience in their field, and is subsequently not even recognised as being a skilled worker. Generally the time when it is vaguely recognised is when a foreign student comes to study in the UK, through overseas programs. Many people, when talking about immigration, don't realise that the UK also sends our students on 1/2/3 year placements, working in another country. I believe it's to enable future talent sharing as well as getting ironically, better training than they would receive in the UK.
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'Incessant Nonsense'

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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #2916 on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 15:00:31 »

I loved it when the recent news about Cheddar Man came out.

Yet no mention of how the builders of Silbury/Avebury disappeared from the DNA record to be replaced by "Beaker" immigrants.  Hmmm
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chalkies_shorts

« Reply #2917 on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 15:22:09 »

Most Brexiteers I speak to couldn't care less about immigration. Its a non issue for me coming from parents who were economic migrants from Ireland. I don't need convincing the majority are hard working and make this country a more diverse and interesting place to live. And even if they aren't then we've got enough of our own indigenous idle, feckless individuals, its not an immigrant exclusive club.
What I do object to though is an "open door" policy for hundreds of millions that we can't do anything about regardless of colour or religion.
Immigration may well be the thing that makes the EU come unstuck. Merkel made a big faux pass with the 1m or 1.5m. Italy looks as though its had enough and when the EU forces (against the governments wishes) the V4 countries to accept migrants all hell will break lose. I also pity the migrants who will be forced to live in those countries. 
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BambooToTheFuture

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« Reply #2918 on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 15:29:38 »

Yet no mention of how the builders of Silbury/Avebury disappeared from the DNA record to be replaced by "Beaker" immigrants.  Hmmm

Admittedly that is another story but you've extracted my reference out of context. I was pointing out my personal joy when certainly family members (with racist undertones) were pressed on this area and they couldn't answer without sounding ridiculous. To quote 'yeah but...he...might not have actually been born here.' or from an old work colleague, i'm not joking Reg 'Oh yeah, well if he was black then how come it took him so long to get here ey?'

I'll happily have a conversation with you about archaeological history, but in all honesty my reference was in response to Horlock and mirroring the behaviours of people in his extended family, similar to mine.
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'Incessant Nonsense'

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'I'm gonna tell you the secret.
There's a threat, you end it and you don't feel ashamed about enjoying it.
You smell the gunpowder and you see the blood, you know what that means?
It means you're alive. You've won.
You take the heads so that you don't ever forget.'
pauld
Aaron Aardvark

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« Reply #2919 on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 15:41:17 »

Most Brexiteers I speak to couldn't care less about immigration. Its a non issue for me
What I do object to though is an "open door" policy for hundreds of millions that we can't do anything about regardless of colour or religion.
Erm, that does sound remarkably like your problem with the EU was, precisely, immigration.
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Samdy Gray
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« Reply #2920 on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 15:50:49 »

It's like starting a sentence "I'm not racist, but..."
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RobertT

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« Reply #2921 on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 15:52:01 »

Erm, that does sound remarkably like your problem with the EU was, precisely, immigration.

And given our Colonial past, it is precisely the sort of immigration we will "see" more of once we leave the EU.  Namely because we will see less direct EU citizens coming over, and those that remain will come from the sub continent through the Commonwealth as well as us having to deal directly with the UN when it comes to Asylum seekers/refugees.  It is entirely feasible that overall immigration reduces slightly, but that we "see" it even more precisely because the traditionally white immigrants won't be coming over.

The debate on the economics is not an easy one though - there is indeed evidence to suggest that right now the UK benefits financially overall - that is the net financial contribution to the economy is higher than any associated costs through welfare, NHS, local services etc.  However, that is because we are attracting economic migrants - the risk of course is that they too grow old and remain in the country, merely pushing back a cost to the country for later generations again.  You still need to consider some long term costs and begin planning for them.  What has certainly happened is that the boon in economic migrants has helped push that debate back a few years and create some breathing space.
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chalkies_shorts

« Reply #2922 on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 16:01:34 »

Nope its not immigration. Its the control element. You can stop the open door policy but keep immigration as it is - if you choose to do so.
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #2923 on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 16:02:06 »

Erm, that does sound remarkably like your problem with the EU was, precisely, immigration.

All the Brexiteers I know, and because of my age cohort that's quite a lot, did so mainly because of s desire to get immigration down.  The economic arguments not really playing but the cultural aspect being a primary concern, even many of the second generation offspring of immigrants voted leave.
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pauld
Aaron Aardvark

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« Reply #2924 on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 16:09:09 »

Nope its not immigration. Its the control element. You can stop the open door policy but keep immigration as it is - if you choose to do so.
OK, so your concern is control of immigration. I understand you're not anti-immigrant but nonetheless you are saying immigration is a key issue that made you vote leave aren't you really?
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