Let's Get Political!

[pauld]

Well we'll have to see how the Labour core vote reacts at an election.  I'm fairly sure at the time of the referendum, not too many were agonising about the finer points of tariff barriers.

No, but I'm pretty sure when people voted to leave the EU, they voted to leave the whole kit and caboodle, not some kind of half in, half out hokey cokey. Whether they should have been agonising about the finer points (and whether that might perhaps have been mentioned in the debate instead of twattery on the side of buses) is another matter. This just smacks of the same old paternalistic "Well, you might have voted for X but we know what's best for you" that a lot of people were kicking off against in the first place

[Reg Smeeton]

No, but I'm pretty sure when people voted to leave the EU, they voted to leave the whole kit and caboodle, not some kind of half in, half out hokey cokey. Whether they should have been agonising about the finer points (and whether that might perhaps have been mentioned in the debate instead of twattery on the side of buses) is another matter. This just smacks of the same old paternalistic "Well, you might have voted for X but we know what's best for you" that a lot of people were kicking off against in the first place

But we are leaving the European Union... this is just about finding the least damaging way of doing it.

[RedRag]

May has hemmed herself in with her contradictory Single Market/Customs Union red lines and her GFA commitment to keeping an open border in Ireland.  An impossible nonsense borne of not having an agreed negotiating position virtually a full year after having triggered Art. 50.

Corbyn's Customs Union offering does indicate is that he has grasped an approach by which the UK might leave the EU which may also help keep the NI/Republic border open, per the Good Friday Agreement.

There is political calculation of course.  I'm sure this may entail a loss of some portion of the Labour core vote (those previously switching to UKIP?).

I have to say I am intrigued by Paul's reference to "principle" in this context.

[RedRag]

No, but I'm pretty sure when people voted to leave the EU, they voted to leave the whole kit and caboodle, not some kind of half in, half out hokey cokey.

That may be your belief but the evidence is that you are wrong, very wrong

A survey shortly before Brexit found that 42% of Leave voters thought it would be reasonable for the Government to consider a Norway style option against 44% who thought otherwise.

[pauld]

I have to say I am intrigued by Paul's reference to "principle" in this context.

Just that of enacting the result of the referendum i.e. carrying out the will of the people as expressed in a democratic vote

That may be your belief but the evidence is that you are wrong, very wrong

A survey shortly before Brexit found that 42% of Leave voters thought it would be reasonable for the Government to consider a Norway style option against 44% who thought otherwise.

Hmm, fair enough then. My apologies to Mr Corbyn.

[chalkies_shorts]

I voted to leave the whole kit and caboodle. From day 1 we should have said we're out and given people the certainty they wanted and planned accordingly. 

[Reg Smeeton]

I voted to leave the whole kit and caboodle. From day 1 we should have said we're out and given people the certainty they wanted and planned accordingly. 

Pretty much what happened, other than the planning bit....

[ghanimah]

So it looks like Labour are going for keeping the UK pretty much in the Customs Union.  Smart  move, should cause the fissures in the Tory Party to blow, and perhaps force a General Election.

No it's bullshit. It's another example of the political class unable to comprehend how we have been governed for four and half decades and unable to discuss anything in a grown up way outside the very narrow confines of SW1 party politics.

The question of the customs union is perfectly simple. It's called a European Union Customs Union, as its name implies it only applies to EU member states, therefore as we are leaving the EU it means we are leaving the customs union. It's that simple. Not that it's a big deal, we can have a customs co-operation agreement by invoking a presumption of continuity and Robert's your avuncular relative.

The real issue is leaving the European Economic Area (known as the single market) This deals with non-tarriff barriers which is a far bigger problem and as Barnier noted only Mrs May chose to leave that, the UK in a referendum didn't. The single market and the EU being two entirely different concepts.

[horlock07]

That may be your belief but the evidence is that you are wrong, very wrong

A survey shortly before Brexit found that 42% of Leave voters thought it would be reasonable for the Government to consider a Norway style option against 44% who thought otherwise.

I think the fact that even the Tory cabinet seem to have no idea what they want 12 months after setting the clock ticking rather suggests that there is no coherent reason for voting to leave that everyone voted for.

[RobertT]

Corbyn would be in with the UKIP team if it was down to him, he is not a fan at all.  The Union's are most likely behind the Labour move here, having fallen in love with the EU once it became clear it was a useful vehicle to import European Labour laws.  They might not like other countries, but they liked the benefits of shorter working weeks, minimum wage etc.

The vote was simple - most of the 51% probably hate the EU having ANY power and wanted to stop foreigners moving over.  As it remains likely any attempt to remain in the Single Market will come with it's own requirements on Labour movement, that's a non-starter in my mind, it would undermine the reason for leaving.

Just get Out and take the medicine.

If the Country wants some pain, let it have it.  I give it about 2 years before the penny has dropped that it doesn't stop a Government continuing to allow non-EU immigrants in, probably in higher numbers initially.  If nothing else, it should make party politics fun to watch in the UK.

[ghanimah]

The vote was simple - most of the 51% probably hate the EU having ANY power and wanted to stop foreigners moving over.  As it remains likely any attempt to remain in the Single Market will come with it's own requirements on Labour movement, that's a non-starter in my mind, it would undermine the reason for leaving.

Polls and surveys before, during and after the referendum showed clearly that the overwhelming motive for leaving was based on the EU's lack of democracy. That has been very prevalent from the outset since 1973 and gained further traction in the '90s before the borders were "opened in 2004".

In addition remaining in the single market does allow us to suspend free movement under Article 112 and it's been done many times before not least by the EU Commission itself.

[RobertT]

Sovereignty followed by Immigration is what I got at the time.

Economical considerations was a reason for voting to stay.

Basically nobody voted to stay for the right reasons - being supportive of the EU's goals and aspirations.

[BambooToTheFuture]

If the Country wants some pain, let it have it.  I give it about 2 years before the penny has dropped that it doesn't stop a Government continuing to allow non-EU immigrants in, probably in higher numbers initially.  If nothing else, it should make party politics fun to watch in the UK.

This. So many people (that I've spoken to, who voted leave) seem to think that by separation/leaving that immigration will disappear! The fact is, it's really a non-issue. I did some research about a year ago on UNHCR figures and advice from a Lawyer friend who works in this very area. The numbers and the costs is negligible to something like less than 2p per year, per UK taxpayer, to cover the cost of any miniscule benefit someone MAY receive. I used to call it the Coffee cup theory (ie, anyone whoever throws their coffee/tea change on the floor every now and again 2p/5p, can't really complain about the cost of immigration). It's a diversionary social "problem" to stop joe public concentrating on other more serious things like TPP, which no doubt we resurface after all this.

The scaremongering into belief that "every" asylum seeker is a Muslim and therefore a terrorist is ridiculous. Again it's targeted hate to distract the public. Before September 2001 I don't remember people being afraid of Muslims or trying to stop people from wearing what they want. I thought, our nation (even the world) was more intelligent than this. I thought, we had got past silly, sheep mentality stigma. Of course, we all know what thought did. Unfortunately herd/pack mentality, which is very much ingrained within our evolutionary development, means there will always be an element of; Monkey see, monkey do (or chimp see, chimp do to be more accurate).

[Reg Smeeton]

This. So many people (that I've spoken to, who voted leave) seem to think that by separation/leaving that immigration will disappear! The fact is, it's really a non-issue. I did some research about a year ago on UNHCR figures and advice from a Lawyer friend who works in this very area. The numbers and the costs is negligible to something like less than 2p per year, per UK taxpayer, to cover the cost of any miniscule benefit someone MAY receive. I used to call it the Coffee cup theory (ie, anyone whoever throws their coffee/tea change on the floor every now and again 2p/5p, can't really complain about the cost of immigration). It's a diversionary social "problem" to stop joe public concentrating on other more serious things like TPP, which no doubt we resurface after all this.

The scaremongering into belief that "every" asylum seeker is a Muslim and therefore a terrorist is ridiculous. Again it's targeted hate to distract the public. Before September 2001 I don't remember people being afraid of Muslims or trying to stop people from wearing what they want. I thought, our nation (even the world) was more intelligent than this. I thought, we had got past silly, sheep mentality stigma. Of course, we all know what thought did. Unfortunately herd/pack mentality, which is very much ingrained within our evolutionary development, means there will always be an element of; Monkey see, monkey do (or chimp see, chimp do to be more accurate).

So do you not stop to think that a lawyer friend who works in immigration might have a vested interest in immigration 

Doubts about Muslims in the UK really started with the fatwa on Salman Rushdie in 89.  Book burnings in Bradford and inflammatory statements by UK imans, were not cricket. 

The catholic church weren't too keen on Life of Brian, 10 years earlier but there weren't Papal calls to assassinate Michael Palin.

[BambooToTheFuture]

So do you not stop to think that a lawyer friend who works in immigration might have a vested interest in immigration 

Doubts about Muslims in the UK really started with the fatwa on Salman Rushdie in 89.  Book burnings in Bradford and inflammatory statements by UK imans, were not cricket. 

The catholic church weren't too keen on Life of Brian, 10 years earlier but there weren't Papal calls to assassinate Michael Palin.

So you're quick to assume which side of immigration my friend works in? You're better than that Reg.

Yes although I was pretty young then, the Salman Rushdie affair was quite a starter but I think we all know after "September 11th" there became a media frenzy on isolating anyone with a combined disposition of a beard and different coloured pigment. Especially within the western world. Things are so ridiculous now that even when I grow my beard to certain lengths I get sideways glances in pubs and at train stations and airports. That could however, be be also to do with looking like I've just crawled out of a hedge