Let's Get Political!

[Batch]

and not to mention Scotland didn't vote out... by some margin...

now it was a UK vote, and I'm not exactly that bothered by Scotland, but you can see their point when whining.

mind you, on an individual level not much different to those that voted remain here either.

[Reg Smeeton]

and not to mention Scotland didn't vote out... by some margin...

now it was a UK vote, and I'm not exactly that bothered by Scotland, but you can see their point when whining.

mind you, on an individual level not much different to those that voted remain here either.

I think Sturgeon would be fully justified in calling a 2nd referendum.... not so sure she'd win it mind, but if the Sweaties really want the Euro, Schengen free movement, and a hard border with England and Ulster, they should have the right to choose it.

[Ardiles]

The emotional case for a 2nd Scottish Independence referendum is much stronger than it was; but the financial argument less so.  But a good number of Leave voters do appear to have voted with their hearts more than with their heads - so it would not be the greatest surprise if voters in a second Scottish Independence referendum were to do the same...especially if the Brexit process is not smooth.

It's clear that, after the Brexit vote, a large number of voters up there feel next to no connection with the rest of the UK, no longer identify as British and want to leave the UK at any cost...in much the same way that many supporters of Brexit want to rid themselves totally of the EU and all its trappings.  I was a supporter of the Union, but I'm much less so now.  I still believe in the value of the union, but I think the Scots have been boxed in to a corner and would not blame them at all if they now chose to take a different path.

[horlock07]

I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong, but I think that every poll since um, freedom day, that's re-asked that fateful question has affirmed that we don't want Brexit.

As an exercise in national headbanging stupidity this whole sorry fiasco is surely pretty much unparalleled.

I assume at some stage the main stream media is going to pick up on what the prominent leavers were saying before the referendum, which merely further illustrates the extent to which May is using an advisory vote to power here own ideological rush to the utopia she so desires...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...rage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce?

[suttonred]

I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong, but I think that every poll since um, freedom day, that's re-asked that fateful question has affirmed that we don't want Brexit.

As an exercise in national headbanging stupidity this whole sorry fiasco is surely pretty much unparalleled.

Would those be the same sort of polls that predicted a stay vote? Yeah, wouldn't be putting much faith in them.

[horlock07]

The phenomenon of the shy Tory has always been with us.....back in the 80's pollsters used to conduct post election surveys of how people voted at a recent election....the Tory vote was always well down on the one that counted. 

 I suppose a Tory vote is essentially taken out of self interest, whereas many people like to be thought of as caring for others.

Seems a reasonable overview.

[horlock07]

Do we really want to be led by someone who is so prepared to change her views just to suit the main objective of keeping her personal power and he nose in the Westminster trough!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38653681?post_id=10152902182188513_10154241052008513#_=_

She is getting up to a Blair level of bollocks!

[suttonred]

Seems a reasonable overview.

Apart from the Tory dig again( I'm not one, but it is tedious). Do all your friends have to sing the labour anthem before they are allowed to be your friend Reg

[Don Rogers Sock]

She hasn't changed her views has she? She is doing what the majority of people asked the goverment to do.

[Ardiles]

Even though I do not support Brexit, I do have some respect for the way that Theresa May has sought to implement the result of the vote.  Her personal views are not particularly important.  Yesterday, she was asked directly by Laura Kuennsberg how she could now believe in a 'hard' Brexit involving departure from the Single Market when, only 7 months ago, she was all for staying the EU.  She replied that the economy was stronger than she would have expected after a Leave vote, and that this had caused her to change her view.  I don't believe that for a second.  I'm fairly sure that she still believes that leaving will be damaging.  But she's getting on with it regardless, and trying to give the impression that she's a convert.  It's all she can do.

[horlock07]

Even though I do not support Brexit, I do have some respect for the way that Theresa May has sought to implement the result of the vote.  Her personal views are not particularly important.  Yesterday, she was asked directly by Laura Kuennsberg how she could now believe in a 'hard' Brexit involving departure from the Single Market when, only 7 months ago, she was all for staying the EU.  She replied that the economy was stronger than she would have expected after a Leave vote, and that this had caused her to change her view.  I don't believe that for a second.  I'm fairly sure that she still believes that leaving will be damaging.  But she's getting on with it regardless, and trying to give the impression that she's a convert.  It's all she can do.

I would agree to a degree were it not for the fact that she seems to be grabbing the result and then trying to spin it to mean all manner of things which were outside the scope of what was an entirely binary question for what I can only assume are entirely ideological reasons.

The blatant attempts to sideline parliament in the process (I don't really care in terms of Brexit, but would set a terrifying precedent for future governance - especially as it appears the Tories are going to have a free shot at government for the next c.10 years at least) and trying to make out that a vote to leave the EU was actually a vote to leave the single market begins to smell like using a result that says one thing to deliver something in the name of the people that is very different - although no doubt if it goes tits up when will have only been delivering the will of the people!

[Ardiles]

I would agree to a degree were it not for the fact that she seems to be grabbing the result and then trying to spin it to mean all manner of things which were outside the scope of what was an entirely binary question for what I can only assume are entirely ideological reasons.

The blatant attempts to sideline parliament in the process (I don't really care in terms of Brexit, but would set a terrifying precedent for future governance - especially as it appears the Tories are going to have a free shot at government for the next c.10 years at least) and trying to make out that a vote to leave the EU was actually a vote to leave the single market begins to smell like using a result that says one thing to deliver something in the name of the people that is very different - although no doubt if it goes tits up when will have only been delivering the will of the people!

I agree with almost all of that.  I'm also stunned that we're heading for the 'hardest' form of Brexit when the mandate for it simply does not exist.

The section of your note that I've put in bold is the piece I'm not sure about.  I don't think she's ideologically driven towards leaving the Single Market, or to Brexit at all.  I fail to see how anyone could perform such an abrupt about-turn in such a short space of time.  Instead, I think that she has concluded - probably correctly - that the 'soft' Brexit option is going to be unworkable and far too difficult to implement.  I think she's been forced in to accepting the most extreme option because, having examined the options in detail, it's the only one she thinks she can deliver.  I would not be at all surprised if, privately, she already believes that she will have to walk away from negotiations all together and to leave without a deal - as she intimated yesterday.

[RobertT]

I think you are paying a huge disservice to those that voted to leave - I'd imagine the vast majority think that leaving the Single Market is a price worth paying to free the country from the EU controls and to, in their mind, get control of immigration (the central issue, hence being tied so closely to the Single Market).

I still believe that 70%+ of the UK population is fundamentaly at odds with the EU goals, so leaving is best for all concerned in the long run, if for no other reason than to allow people to focus on other things.

Personally, I'd sign back up in a heartbeat and allow for full integration, rip up the pound and relegate the concept of countries to sporting teams - so I know I am in a small minority :-)

[sonicyouth]

Despite my concerns I'm inclined to feel that the idea of hard Brexit will likely result in numerous concessions that mean we end up closer to a soft Brexit, but allows May et al to defend themselves later on.

[chalkies_shorts]

When the referendum went to the public, in no way shape or form was it pitched as advisory - it was a straight forward in or out - out being hard Brexit. I'm struggling to see any ambiguity here. Teresa May is trying to do the best job of a total Cameron screw up.
Both sides acted appallingly and are still doing so. Politicians and the more extreme ends of both sides have proved themselves unworthy. I voted out and I've had a fair amount of verbal abuse, mainly being told I'm too stupid to have the vote and that people know where to send the bill when their children's don't get a job etc. I understand emotions are high but a lot of the rhetoric is cringeworthy on both sides. Remoaners, Retard Brexiters blah, blah. blah.
The one thing that is fair to say is that the country was not ready to make such a big decision. Disinformation was given on both sides. There should have been a body that had oversight of the referendum to make it clear if it was advisory or not, and in the event of a leave vote, what would need to happen to make it happen. In addition, to ensure both sides acted fairly.
Maybe if the Scottish have another referendum we can learn. Also Jimmy Krankie has to realise that if she thinks she's got a mandate to keep Scotland in the EU then she has a mandate to keep Scotland in the UK. What she hasn't got a mandate for is which one would the Jocks prefer.