Scunthorpe United FC v Swindon Town FC Official Matchday Thread

[DiV]

We can use any measures we want.

It will still provide the same result.

[herthab]

We can use any measures we want.

It will still provide the same result.

Yes it will, but not solely down to Pdc versus KMac. It wasn't just the manager that changed and people need to fucking accept the other factors involved. This continual wankfest over di Canio is getting boring as fuck.

[DiV]

Yes loads changed we all know that. Even with all those changes PDC would have got better results. I will not apologise for rating him.

[Fred Elliot]

Yes loads changed we all know that. Even with all those changes PDC would have got better results. I will not apologise for rating him.

True

In the championship and in administration.

Lets make no bones about it, his petulant spending was out of control

A bit like my Mrs

[DiV]

...and I assume you will soon bin your mrs off for a dull, old Scottish bloke

[Fred Elliot]

...and I assume you will soon bin your mrs off for a dull, old Scottish bloke

Guaranteed 

[dalumpimunki]

By that system of measurement the Bournemouth, Yeovil, Walsall, and Leyton Orient teams from the first half of the season (who were all embroiled in relegation battles) are given equal weight of difficulty to face as the Bournemouth, Yeovil, Walsall, and Leyton Orient teams from the second half of the season (who were all vying for promotion and among the top form sides in the divison).

Surely you can see the flaw in using only the final league positions, irrespective of the variable form of these teams throughout the season, as the system of comparison?

This is simple surely? Those sides in the top six positions now, they're not just the best six sides in the division this week, they're the best six sides in the division this season. That's how leagues work. Speculation about who was in form or out of form when we played them is nothing but that.

And league position, especially early in the season is a piss poor way to judge even a teams form. In the early season in particular, it's as much about who you've played so far as how good you are. Any old shite can be top 6 in fucking September or October for chrissake. And indeed quite of lot of ropey old shite (that got found out as soon as they played anyone decent) was in the top 6 in those months (yes Stevenage I am looking at you).

Were Notts County really the best side in the league on September 8th last year? No, they were just lucky enough that in their first 5 league games of the year they played 2 of the shittest teams in the league in Hartlepool and Bury, and a fairly shit team in Shrewsbury. It takes time and games to even that stuff out.

Frankly the fact that you have used the term "fighting a relegation battle" to describe teams that were in the lower half of the league 5 or 6 weeks after the start of the season should be a clue that there's something seriously flawed with your line of argument.

None of those sides were fighting a relegation battle this season because relegation and the battles to avoid them happen at the end of a season by fucking definition.

There's a reason the prizes are handed out at the end of the season. It's because at that point, when everyone has played everyone home and away, is when you can judge who is good and who is shit.

[dalumpimunki]

Yes loads changed we all know that. Even with all those changes PDC would have got better results. I will not apologise for rating him.

Here's a turn up. I think you're probably right!

I've never argued that the managerial change was a positive thing in terms of results. I think the other factors were already having an impact on performance before PDC left, and would have continued to, meaning that I don't think he would have got the sort PPG he was getting earlier in the season.

However, I think it would be mad to think that throwing the established coaching order up in the air at a crucial point of the season, wouldn't have a negative effect. PDC knew the players, they knew his style of play. Chances are we would have done a bit better with him still in place.

That doesn't necessarily mean he's a better coach or manager than Mac, because if the positions had been reversed and it was Macdonald that had built the side his way and had quit and PDC taking over late in the season. I think that might have had an equally negative impact.

[DiV]

Here's a turn up. I think you're probably right!

I've never argued that the managerial change was a positive thing in terms of results. I think the other factors were already having an impact on performance before PDC left, and would have continued to, meaning that I don't think he would have got the sort PPG he was getting earlier in the season.

However, I think it would be mad to think that throwing the established coaching order up in the air at a crucial point of the season, wouldn't have a negative effect. PDC knew the players, they knew his style of play. Chances are we would have done a bit better with him still in place.

That doesn't necessarily mean he's a better coach or manager than Mac, because if the positions had been reversed and it was Macdonald that had built the side his way and had quit and PDC taking over late in the season. I think that might have had an equally negative impact.

I agree with sentence one, paragraph 1 and paragraph 2.

Cant say I agree with paragraph 3 thought - although that is based purely on the fact since he took over at Sunderland (and someone elses team obviously) he's managed to get them to give Chelsea a good go and he's beat Newcastle and Everton with a team who previously managed to only just scrape a draw against a 10 man Norwich side who played for a point.

[dalumpimunki]

I agree with sentence one, paragraph 1 and paragraph 2.

Cant say I agree with paragraph 3 thought - although that is based purely on the fact since he took over at Sunderland (and someone elses team obviously) he's managed to get them to give Chelsea a good go and he's beat Newcastle and Everton with a team who previously managed to only just scrape a draw against a 10 man Norwich side who played for a point.

Slightly different situation though isn't it. They were in free fall, on a really crap run of form. They properly needed a change.

I'm just saying that if we'd had the season we'd had up to the end of January under any manager, I wouldn't have wanted to change things for the run in, even if Pep Guardiola fancied the job, let alone Paolo .

[BruceChatwin]

This is simple surely? Those sides in the top six positions now, they're not just the best six sides in the division this week, they're the best six sides in the division this season. That's how leagues work. Speculation about who was in form or out of form when we played them is nothing but that.

And league position, especially early in the season is a piss poor way to judge even a teams form. In the early season in particular, it's as much about who you've played so far as how good you are. Any old shite can be top 6 in fucking September or October for chrissake. And indeed quite of lot of ropey old shite (that got found out as soon as they played anyone decent) was in the top 6 in those months (yes Stevenage I am looking at you).

Were Notts County really the best side in the league on September 8th last year? No, they were just lucky enough that in their first 5 league games of the year they played 2 of the shittest teams in the league in Hartlepool and Bury, and a fairly shit team in Shrewsbury. It takes time and games to even that stuff out.

Frankly the fact that you have used the term "fighting a relegation battle" to describe teams that were in the lower half of the league 5 or 6 weeks after the start of the season should be a clue that there's something seriously flawed with your line of argument.

None of those sides were fighting a relegation battle this season because relegation and the battles to avoid them happen at the end of a season by fucking definition.

There's a reason the prizes are handed out at the end of the season. It's because at that point, when everyone has played everyone home and away, is when you can judge who is good and who is shit.

Stevenage were not just 'ropey old shite' at the beginning of the season who were only at the top because of some astonishingly fortunate run of games against teams at the bottom.

They played and beat Walsall, Yeovil, Franchise and Leyton Orient in that period (all top teams according to a system that ranks by final league position) and also played and drew against Doncaster, Bournemouth and Tranmere to get to 2nd place in the first half of the season, before a terrible collapse in form in the second half when they lost to the likes of Bury, Carlisle, Scunthorpe, Oldham and Colchester (some of the poorest teams according to a system that ranks by final league position).

Bournemouth, Yeovil, Walsall, and Leyton Orient meanwhile really were 'ropey old shite' at the bottom of the table when we played them first time around but by diametrical contrast all had a drastic turnaround in form for the second time we played them and ended up finishing near the top.

Saying that beating those teams in the first part of the season is commensurate to beating them in the second half of the season based on a blind reading of their end league position is not just an oversimplification of the reality of how good or bad those teams were at different points in the season but a logical fallacy that makes for a very unfair comparison.

In fact it would be making almost exactly the same logical fallacy that trying to make a blind comparison between the PPG of Di Canio and Kmac without considering the extraneous circumstances of the resources they had available would be making: assuming that two teams in two different times and places were of equal ability and skill.

[Nomoreheroes]

All irrelevant - He's fucked off and taken his mates with him.

We have Kevin McDonald in charge now.

I don't give a fuck about statistics. But tonight, I am a Villa fan!

[Langers]

Villa dicking them 4-1.

[leefer]

Yes loads changed we all know that. Even with all those changes PDC would have got better results. I will not apologise for rating him.

Spot on....we would be up now and saving lots of dosh on the lottery that is the playoffs.

For the first time in years i cannot wait for this season to finish..........it has fucked me right off how the last few weeks has panned out.

[4D]

...and I assume you will soon bin your mrs off for a dull, old Scottish bloke

I didn't think Doss was Scottish