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Author Topic: Grand National  (Read 89545 times)
STFCBird
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« Reply #120 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 12:29:47 »

Designed?

Wasn't the modern domesticated horse bred entirely for work? I'm sure it must be quite different from the wild horses of whatever BC.





Most sensible post in this thread comes from Flammable fucking Ben (no offence sweetcheeks)

I was bought up in and around the racing industry and have been riding horses since the age of 4 and I have had my own horse for 10 years.  I know and understand a horses body language and animal instinct.  If any of you cunts want to get on my horse and try and make it do something it really does not want to do, be my guest because if he does not want to do it, he fucking won't end of. 

Domesticated horses were bred for work and the best attributes from the wild horse have been harnessed for our benefit.  The thoroughbred was bred for agility and speed.

The horse that won the grand national, was bred for the race.  His owner bought him to win the race.  The horse jumped from fence to fence and when you know horses and understand horses you would see that horse was enjoying his job.  Yes he finished very tired but you could see that all of the jockeys that had fallen or failed to complete the course were rushing to the horses that finished with buckets of water for them all and to cool them down.  The welfare of the horses is paramount.  Yes two horses died, I was very sad, it upset me, but I do not want to ban jump racing or the grandnational. Those horses would not have felt pain and would of been seen to instantly by vets. They were born to run and they died doing a job that they were bought into this world to do and enjoyed doing.


How horseracing lives with the spectre of death

 By Alastair Down 11:05AM 12 APR 2011

IT IS simple to attack jump racing, infinitely more complex and challenging to defend it.

Saturday’s Grand National has provoked a veritable storm of protest. Some of the outrage has been from the usual suspects marching under the banner of ‘animal rights’ – whatever they may be. But a large chunk of the disgust has come from the everyday man and woman in the street, and their legitimate concerns have to be taken seriously by the racing industry, because in the final analysis we continue to ply our trade with the consent and tolerance of the general public.

And it is no use jump racing holding its nose and ducking the stark realities. Since 1988the Grand National has killed 20 horses and the spectacle of two of them quite literally laid out for eight million people to see on Saturday has stuck broadside in the craw of many people, not least certain newspaper editors or TV and radio stations hungry for controversy.

Every single argument about the legitimacy and morality of jump racing can be boiled down to one extremely uncomfortable, even disturbing, question and that is: Are you prepared to accept the death of horses as part of your sport?

We will take as read all the usual caveats and qualifications about constantly doing our damnedest to prevent horses being killed, and please let’s dispense with our customary refuge in expressions such as ‘casualties’ or horses ‘paying the ultimate
price’.

I can play with fancy words better than most but this is not the time – on Saturday some people were revolted by the sight of dead horses and they are levelling the potentially fatal charge that the Grand National in particular and, therefore, jump racing in general is cruel past the point of acceptability.

Nor is it any use to rail against the cheap sensationalism of the coverage or the twisted logic of critics for whom regard for the truth is an easily avoided inconvenience. There is no point trying to have a sane debate with someone who compares jump racing with bullfighting except to make the small point that on the racecourse everything humanly possible is done to avoid death whereas in the bullring it is fully intended to bring it about.

So we must address the burning question. If your answer is, “No, I am not prepared toaccept the death of horses as part of my sport”, then jump racing is not for you because it is a high-risk, physically dangerous activity in which fatalities are inevitable.

A lot of the problemis that jump racing’s deaths are extremely high profile. As a society we hide death away. We kill hundreds of millions of animals every year and I could show you certain modern farming methods, or the most scrupulously run abattoir, and have you puking in revulsion within minutes.

But such horrors are all hidden from view with the result that someone apparently outraged by Aintree would make no connection with their own contribution to animal carnage on a colossal scale whensitting down later with a chicken sandwich or a juicy steak.

And of course I am as upset as the next man by confronting death. A stricken animal up close is a terrible sight to behold and I couldn’t put my hand on my heart and say that if I had to face it time and again there might not come a tipping point when I could take it no more.

But I am prepared to accept the death of horses as part of my sport. The worst part for sure and the one that serves up jumping’s vilest moments. And is my conscience clear?
Yes. Is it untroubled? Most assuredly not.

Everybody loathes the death of a horse. But fatalities are just a fraction of what jump racing is about and I would behonest enough to argue that, in an increasingly sanitised, risk-denuded society, the omnipresence of danger lies at the very kernel of its appeal.

I have no argument with those who disapprove of jump racing. But with those who seek toemasculate it beyond recognition or ban it entirely I am implacably at odds.

Those who love jump racing hail from every geographical corner and inhabit all social strata of these islands. They are Everyman and they are legion.

When they make their way to Cheltenham or to Aintree it is not without trepidation of what they may see. But, taken in the round, they find something about the sight, sound and spectacle of jump racing that is spiritually uplifting and nourishing to the soul in a way that no other sport comes close to providing.

And, of course, ‘a little learning is a dangerous thing’. How many of those currently howling at jumping’s gate have ever set foot ona racecourse or tried even to begin to understand it before condemning it? There is no tyranny as great as ignorance.

I know many folk, the young in particular, who despite not being ardent racing fans try never to miss the festival because as a feast of very human joy they have found no other occasion in their year to match it.

And that joy is nurtured, raised and rammed tumultuously home into the human breast by an almost primal passion for the jumps horse in full cry. And when one is killed, is it merely marked by some flitting note of regret, or an uncaring shoulder shrug?

Not a bit of it, it is the stuff of genuine remorse, yet still a price worth the paying. The truth is that jump racing gives ordinary people avenues into zones of emotional experience that are increasingly hard to replicate elsewhere. That may render it unfashionable and sometimes uncomfortable, but it doesn’t erode my conviction that it is utterly defensible andalmost wholly admirable.

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BANGKOK RED

« Reply #121 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 12:32:23 »

What were they designed to do though? Just live in a field

Pretty much yes, big fields (plains)

Horses are not sprint animals, they are a prey animal and prey animals tend to be good runners but their main predators are not short burst runners like lions and cheetahs. The horses natural predators are wolves and wolves hunt differently.

Wolves hunt in packs and their intention is not so much to outrun their prey but push it to exhaustion. It is not a battle of speed but a battle of stamina. A horse sprinting at high speed in the wild would be pointless because they will just tire quickly and slow down, allowing the wolves to close in. Instead the horse has evolved to run at a sustained speed over a long distance in hope that the wolves tire before they do.

Yes a horse can sprint fast, after all they are big animals with large powerful legs. Elephants can also shift but it doesn't mean they are made for racing. By making the horse run as fast as possible over a sustained period of time, you are making them do something that they simply are not built to do which is clearly evidenced by the fact that many suffer from heart attacks and often run themselves to the brink of death (if jumps don't kill them).

If horse races were endurance events rather than speed events there would be far fewer casualties. You could say that it's a case of horses for courses.
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BANGKOK RED

« Reply #122 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 12:35:07 »

Designed?

Wasn't the modern domesticated horse bred entirely for work? I'm sure it must be quite different from the wild horses of whatever BC.





Designed/bred/whatever.

The fatalities clearly show that they are not made to be doing what they are doing. They really are just not very good at it.
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flammableBen

« Reply #123 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 12:37:28 »

Designed/bred/whatever.

The fatalities clearly show that they are not made to be doing what they are doing. They really are just not very good at it.

Well that's ok. The deaths of the ones that can't handle it mean that future generations will be better.
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BANGKOK RED

« Reply #124 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 12:44:22 »


The horse that won the grand national, was bred for the race. 


So why did it nearly die from exhaustion?
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Ardiles

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« Reply #125 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 12:44:23 »

The welfare of the horses is paramount.

In recent years, the three day Grand National meeting at Aintree has seen an average of three equine deaths.  Another stat from this article puts the chances of equine death at the start of a steeplechase at 6 in 1,000.

How that squares with 'the welfare of the horses is paramount' is beyond me.  Sorry.
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Don Rogers Shop

« Reply #126 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 12:45:13 »

So why did it nearly die from exhaustion?

Same reason paula radcliffe did
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Don Rogers Shop

« Reply #127 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 12:46:21 »

In recent years, the three day Grand National meeting at Aintree has seen an average of three equine deaths.  Another stat from this article puts the chances of equine death at the start of a steeplechase at 6 in 1,000.

How that squares with 'the welfare of the horses is paramount' is beyond me.  Sorry.
More people have died from playing football in the last 5 years than horses have in jump racing.
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BANGKOK RED

« Reply #128 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 12:48:04 »

Same reason paula radcliffe did

Heat exhaustion due to the high temperatures.

She was doing something she wasn't designed to do.
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Ardiles

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« Reply #129 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 12:50:04 »

More people have died from playing football in the last 5 years than horses have in jump racing.

Which means fuck all...because the number of players turning out every week to play football massively exceeds the number of horses racing.

If you knew that there was a 1 in 167 (or 6 in 1,000) chance you would die every time you played for your Sunday league side, football would die as a sport immediately.
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BANGKOK RED

« Reply #130 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 12:50:54 »

More people have died from playing football in the last 5 years than horses have in jump racing.

How many people play football though?

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Simon Pieman
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« Reply #131 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 12:51:04 »

Just to follow on from Birdy's post, horses are trained very early from when they are foaled. The 'breaking' of a horse follows this training - the training is essentially to trust humans and get on with them not to punish them etc. Training a horse for a human to ride is not a massively traumatic experience if done right.

It is rather sad that horses are raced for human amusement and could die as a result. It's not just something which happens in the National but in different meets all year. I guess the National brings it home to more people but why focus on just this race eh? Apart from Bangkok Red I reckon most people have bet on a horse race in their lifetime. Whilst this doesn't make them a hypocrite for past actions it would suggest most people enjoy the racing before they think of a horse's welfare.
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Don Rogers Shop

« Reply #132 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 13:01:35 »

How many people play football though?


22 excluding subs
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BANGKOK RED

« Reply #133 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 13:06:26 »


Those horses would not have felt pain and would of been seen to instantly by vets.


Really?

Dooneys gate didn't die straight away did he? Did the horse not lay there with a broken back before being shot?

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ghanimah

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« Reply #134 on: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 13:22:01 »

Did you deliberately miss the point?

No in the same way you did not answer the question how horses, or race horses, are not designed to race, gallop, run or jump fences even in a herd.

My wife worked for Dick Hern for over 10 years (the circumstances of which are the reason for my log-on name here) and Jenny Pitman, and my wife can assure you that racehorses are very intelligent yet temperamental aka stubborn bastards - if they don't want to do something they don't do it. She could relate plenty of examples of racehorses finding that training is too cold on a January morning so they throw off their jockey and return back to stables to eat hay with a; "don't even try to move me motherfucker" look on their face.

Anyone who works with animals, or owns them, knows when they are sulking, sad, angry or happy. The same is true with racehorses. They race because they want to - for example many horses who fall, pick themselves back up and carry on without their jockey. Conversely some when faced with a fence they don't like say to themselves “bugger this for a game of soldiers" and refuse to continue – that’s what “pulled up” in the statistics means.

Of course it's tragic when horses lose their life, no-one wants to see that - but that's the risk inherent in any sport that relies on speed and agility - ask Ayrton Senna or Nodar Kumaritashvili.

There's too much sentimentally regarding animals, it reminds me of the notorious IRA bomb in 1982 - it's always remembered as the one that "killed all those horses"; the four Guardsmen who died are always an afterthought.

The horses that raced on Saturday loved doing it, and chose to do it; sadly some fell victim to the risk.
« Last Edit: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 13:37:27 by ghanimah » Logged

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