who are you voting in the euro elections?

[jonny72]

But that was my point... albeit not very well made.. The European UNION is NOT formed democratically. The last chance I had to vote I was asked if I wanted to remain part of a common market. We even had the chance to vote on the lisbon treaty denied to us because the Labour party were too scared os the result so broke their manifesto pledge.

Democracy doesn't mean getting a vote on every single issue there is and the fact that you don't doesn't mean that it isn't democratic. All of the unions you mentioned were formed with absolutely no democratic process, they broke down when democracy was introduced in those countries. Its also worth pointing out that most of the countries involved in the unions you quoted can't wait to join the EU, something their citizens want and agree to through democratic processes.

Whilst the last direct vote we had was on joining the EC (or whatever it was called back then), we have regular opportunities to vote at a local, national and international level - all of which give you an input as to how things are run. You also have plenty of other opportunities under our democratic system to have your say - contacting your elected representative, joining a demonstration, calling a phone in or even standing as a candidate yourself.

I'm obviously very pro EU, but that doesn't mean I'm happy with the way it is being run - it is a complete and utter crock of shit on so many levels. We should be concentrating on improving the way it is run, rather than wasting time on talking about leaving it - which is bit pointless as I'm pretty certain there isn't actually any defined process for a country to leave the EU.

It also seems a bit stupid going on about the EU, when we've been in a union for the last 200 years or whatever which has just as many, if not more critics. We should sort out the situation in the UK before worrying about the EU.

[Phil_S]

I think we will have to agree to disagree. The vote was actually to stay in the common market. Heath lied to us at the time & said political union was not on the table. (Cabinet minutes released since show this to be a lie).  If we voted to join democartically it was all based on a lie. (Hitler was voted in democratically on a lie too)
Agree the countries recently joining want to, but they do so beacause they know that the EU will be a cash cow to them. ireland initially looked at the EU that way, but now the money is going east they are changing their view point. I'd rather my cash went elsewhere in the world where people really are starving, or better still just let them trade with us on a free & fair basis instead of inposing import tariffs.
Democracy I agree shouldn't be based upon votes for every single thing, but all of the main political parties have a veated interest in staying in europe if only because if they are kicked out of british politics they can go to brussels & nmake even more money from the system. People like myself at a general election vote for a UK goverment. I wouldn't vote UKIP at a general election because I know they wouldn't get in. So I vote for the party closest to my views on what I consider the important issues (including but not just europe)
You mention the union that is the UK. Really this underlines my point. It was not created democratically. The english conquered the rest. This too is in the process of breaking up stating with the now republic of Ireland., now we have devolved goverment in Scotland & Wales where just like the EU the Goverment tries to keep them happy by subsidising them (Free University education & HNS prescriptions) but given time they too will leave.
As for the process of leaving, why not. If the Ukraine can leave the USSR, or India the British Empire we can leave the EU.

[jonny72]

I agree with most of your points regarding the EU; money is wasted, it is generally poorly run, the money doesn't go to the people and countries it should, the CAP is a joke and we should get the opportunity to vote on things more. I just don't think withdrawing is the answer, getting the problems sorted makes a lot more sense to me.

I want us to stay in the EU, I want more power handed over the the EU but I also want it run properly. I also agree with a vote on whether we should stay in the EU or not and if we do stay, the form that membership should take.

But I think more pressing is to sort out the status of the UK, as that is a far bigger issue for most people. I'd love to see the end of it myself as I'm sick and tired of being British, I'm English and proud of it.

[Phil_S]

Having read that we probably agree on more things than we disagree on.
Where we differ is that if we vote to stay in the EU, then I think it should be about a common market. Not a political United States of Europe.
Re Britain, if the Scots, Welsh & N Irish vote for independence then let them have it. I have no problem with that. If they want to stay in then it should be under the same terms for ALL of the component parts.  But then I hold the same view on Europe. Give us a vote (as you say). If we vote to get out great if not at least it is a democratic decision, but I want less power for them not more. (certainly whilst people who can't get elected to Westminster are appointted to make decisions in europe)

[jonny72]

Re Britain, if the Scots, Welsh & N Irish vote for independence then let them have it.

What pisses me off about that is the only people who don't ever get a vote on independence is the English. Why haven't we been given a vote on independence? Though admittedly it would really be a vote on dissolving the UK.

[Reg Smeeton]

Unusually I can't be arsed to read this thread, so apologies if it's already been posted, but the voting slip, must have been the biggest in British democratic history...getting in it in the slit,...ooh er, I miss Birdy on here.

[Rich Pullen]

The size of that voting slip was indeed ridiculous.

[Nemo]

Unusually I can't be arsed to read this thread, so apologies if it's already been posted, but the voting slip, must have been the biggest in British democratic history...getting in it in the slit,...ooh er, I miss Birdy on here.

Yes, it's been noted. It's daft as a brush.

[Bedford Red]

The size of that voting slip was indeed ridiculous.

It was i agree. We had 15 Candidates/parties here, including the Animal party and others i hadn't heard of.

[sonicyouth]

i read somewhere that some of the parties complained to the electoral commission that people were folding them before handing them over to voters, thus meaning those further down on the list go unnoticed.

if politicians can't trust the general public to unfold a pice of paper, why give them a choice to vote?

[jonny72]

Its amazing they haven't started using some form of computer touch screen terminal type system. No wasted paper, no need for people to count the votes and we'd have the results immediately. With everything else we trust to computers I don't see why this would be a problem. Though maybe offering a paper vote for oldies.

[Iffy's Onion Bhaji]

Its amazing they haven't started using some form of computer touch screen terminal type system. No wasted paper, no need for people to count the votes and we'd have the results immediately. With everything else we trust to computers I don't see why this would be a problem. Though maybe offering a paper vote for oldies.

Didn't they do something like that in America?

[Reg Smeeton]

i read somewhere that some of the parties complained to the electoral commission that people were folding them before handing them over to voters, thus meaning those further down on the list go unnoticed.

if politicians can't trust the general public to unfold a pice of paper, why give them a choice to vote?

Ken Livingstone once said "if democracy changed anything they'd abolish it."

[oxford_fan]

I voted green earlier.

http://votematch.co.uk/europe

This thing confirmed it, Green top, the rest in a bunch, except UKIP miles behind.

[Talk Talk]

Voting for any of the candidates (including UKIP) legitimises the EU.

So I spoiled my ballot paper big time. It's the only anti-EU protest I can think of. Not turning out means you don't care.

My eldest daughter who was eligible to vote for the first time has just won a second part time job in Marks & Sparks. It means that she will be working seven days a week, although only about 36 hours altogether. And guess what? Sparky's found out about the other job and so changed their mind as under the EU Working Time Directive you are not allowed to work seven days in a row.

That is the reality of what they are doing to us. So she voted tonight. She drew a big lump of steaming turds surrounded by flies on her ballot paper. Go girl.