Thetownend.com

Simple enough question. The link between heading and dementia has picked up a lot of traction recently so what's everyone thoughts?

Call me selfish or insensitive, but personally, i think it would be a travesty if they banned it.

Not sure about the adult game, but there should be serious considerations on the youth game

There’s millions of people who get dementia who have never headed a ball in their lives. How does anyone prove that a particular case was caused by heading a ball? Can’t imagine the diminutive Nobby Styles was a regular header of the ball.

May as well get rid of the game altogether if it gets banned, they'd end up bringing in the over head height rule from 5 a side to enforce it and the whole game will be ruined.

Yep, will feel like a game of table football.

One bonus, it means Flitcroft and the Cowleys will never get another managers job :)

Soon enough boxers/mma fighters will no longer be able to punch their opponents in the head.

Absolutely not. Part of the attraction of elite sport, such as football or boxing, is the risk involved.

And that will be more ruined sports. People make a choice and accept there is risk involved when they play certain sports, too many do gooders out there trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do.

Absolutely not.

A) There's a big difference between heading a ball in the 50s and now.
B) No one is forced to play football. At most, just make people aware of the risks if they're proven
C) Are they going to ban every fight sport, rugby, NFL, etc too?

There has been talk of introducing head guards in the pros. I've no problem with head guards being used in amateur Boxing, but fighting without one is something that differentiates the amateur ranks from the professional. Boxing does need to have a look at its match making though. The dangers of somebody smaller getting punched in the head by somebody bigger are obvious, but there's dangers involved when somebody loses an unnatural amount of weight to fight somebody smaller too. Kell Brook was way too big to be draining to 147 to fight Crawford on the weekend, for example. Getting knocked out when you are drained cannot be good for the ol' noggin

I mean, proving the link is just science. Repeated, low-level head trauma (rather than full on concussion/being knocked unconscious) has a serious, established link to CTE and dementia. This isn't based on one or two anecdotes, it's based on serious, rigorous scientific analysis.

At least one large study has shown ex pro-footballers develop dementia at a rate 3.5x that of the general population (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50124102)

There's a reasonable argument to say the adults should be allowed to take the risk based on their own judgement, and I think that's broadly where I sit on this topic, but just denying science because the outcomes are uncomfortable is not the right thing to do.

As for the question of the topic, I do think it's a bit more complex than ban/don't ban. There needs to be more awareness of the risk, which I think consenting adults should be allowed to take. At kids levels, I'd probably ban it if the evidence is that the risk at that age is the same or more - it'll probably make for better footballers anyway same as small pitch/smaller ball games have.

As for other sports - almost all contact sports have made some if not significant then at least meaningful strides towards treating concussions and head injuries more seriously (see any game of Rugby Union, or the various NFL court cases). Football seems to be ignoring it and that's not really okay - there are several incidences of players playing on after serious head injuries over the last few years which have been deeply uncomfortable.

In the event proof of a link exists, then you have to take it seriously.  Just as kids here are protected from the full rigour of the professional version of American Football until at High School, I;d suggest you need to do something for kids in football as well here.  Many have mentioned it's a choice, but at pre-16 age, it is far less of a choice.  We all had to play football from an early age as part of PE/Games, many kids here are not even interested, so placing kids at risk seems a bit callous if the evidence suggests there is an increased risk.  I think you'd then be hard pressed not to take some sort of restrictive action.  I think most kids begin choosing sports at around 14, so probably a way you could remove heading until then?

Oh, and after that, it's personal choice.  You have to be dumb to box, in my opinion, but if you want to, knock yourself out, literally.

Modern day footballs are bloody light as a feather anyway, unlike in the good old days of heading a bag of sand.

However it makes complete sense to limit the amount of heading in young kids football

Problem is ball technology has changed significantly from the time that all the players with dementia linked to football played the game. Back then although the ball had the same weight on paper, when added in mud and water and it became 2 or 3 times the normal weight. You're almost back to square one now on whether the issue is as significant now and need to see if any of the 90's onwards generation develop it. If you head a modern ball correctly you barely feel it to be honest which I imagine is a very different experience to a water logged ball from the 60's and 70's.

Limit being the key word. They still have to learn it and learn how to do it safely.

Agree that modern day balls are lighter than they were 50-60 years ago, and even 20-30 years ago when I was at school, you didn't want those mitre delta's hitting you on the top of your head. You'd have a headache for the whole afternoon.

Everyone will be wrapped up in a cotton wool bubble for their whole lives if we keep banning things. Bollocks to that.

That was when footballs were footballs, remember many a game ducking out of headers when the balls were wet, weighed a ton, if you caught it wrong you'd go around all day with the imprint of the laces on your forehead. Still have nightmares about those bloody footballs.

I think you have more success if you knock the other fella out actually!

On the main point......

The way that people get good at things is through practice. So might be difficult to limit in training. Also, if you limit with kids (lets just say below 18), you may well end up with players coming into the game incredibly gifted with their feet, but unable to head the ball. That could I suppose make the game evolve, although, the counter argument may be that it will force kids to be practicing headers in 'unsafe environments' away from clubs where there is medical support available.

Haven't read back but there was a good interview with Geoff Hurst the other day which made sense.  It is not the heading in the games that necessarily caused the dementia, more the daily training and repetitive drills.

Yes or No is too limited an answer to this question.

Should heading be banned in Childrens football (maybe upto the age of 12/14) possibly - that is the age where the brain is still developing significantly.
Should it be banned for Adult/Youth football - No.  They just need to get sensible about the heading drills that they do in training.

If they ban heading in football, then NFL, Rugby, Boxing needs to be banned altogether.

Rugby should be banned anyway, just because it's shit. On heading, a binary yes/no ban/no ban is too simplistic. As you say, there's a good argument for an age threshold for kids based on biological evidence of the development of both the brain and perhaps more importantly the skull both which are still undergoing major changes into teenage years. But then also thought needs to be given on what kind of restriction is needed. It's not the one-off impact that causes problems, it's the continued repetition of low-level impacts by repetitive drills in training. So maybe that is what could/should be restricted in children's football rather than heading in games. Up to about 13 or so, there really aren't that many headers in kids' games anyway, so less risk in games and less need to train for it.

Dementia is quite prevalent, I don't understand how it can be tied back to playing football. We are all going to die of something, I'd rather live my life than be wrapped in cotton wool.

Yeah those evenings of showers and sitting in massage chairs must be a massive adrenalin rush for you 4D!!

:)

It's not shit

That's after a day of grafting or base jumping Bobster  ;)

Why didn't you just say "What he said" :D

 I heard a radio interview on this yesterday - I think it was Stephen Darby, there was certainly a reference to him -  apparently there is also a statistically significant increase in the numbers of young former footballers aged under 40 (relative to the population as a whole) who have been diagnosed with MND. They are concerned that this may also be linked to “head trauma“ arising from repeated heading. Apparently there is research ongoing into this.

A ban on heading, at least in children / youth games, will come before long.

It is apparently 3.5 times more prevalent in ex-pros than in the general population. That is how it is tied back to playing football. That may not be due to heading the ball, there may be other factors at play which is why the PFA are funding further research into the topic.

Because I didn't think you made the distinction between training and playing, at least in kids' football which is where I'd see there is a concern. Apologies if you did, but it wasn't clear to me that you had.

Generally I'd advocate the removal of heading in football. I think almost all of the science backs this up, and as mentioned it's the repetititve training that causes damage rather than the more occasional occurances during games.

I don't think it would drastically alter attacking play (headed goals aren't usually that great), but how would defenders deal with a goal kick and cross if they couldn't header it away? I guess it would be a battle of who could position themsevles better, jump, and control it with their chest.

Would be interested to see a pro game/decent standard game without headers.

I am  not a medical practitioner but I understand that repeated blows to the head are unlikely to be beneficial to health.  Football involves blows to the head. If you play in defence or up front, you are likely to head the ball a lot.

As with other sports and pastimes, there is an obligation to understand the risks.  I understand that this is what is happening now.

If we know what the risks are, we can make informed choices and governing bodies can consider how we might mitigate those risks.

If the game has to move on and adapt then so be it. Football as we know it now differs from what Charles 'Charlie' Charles played in the 1930s.  

Ok, but I  guess this relates to footballers who played a few years ago when the ball was very heavy when soaked?

Don't forget a lighter ball would travel with greater force would it not, no point in waiting years for cases to emerge just need to get on and make changes.

It might be too late for some.

As proven last game, some of our players can’t kick the ball. So banning heading would make them practically redundant.

You're making a lot of assumptions that the weight of the ball is the sole cause of injury. Whereas when I've heard neurologists speak about this, they seem to have emphasised the number and frequency of impacts (i.e. repetitions) rather than any one individual impact.

I can appreciate the argument against heading at a young age, but if people want to become an adult or professional footballer it’s got to be their choice - not yet more nanny state elf and safety dictats.

They’ll be banning words from loved Xmas songs next!

So what are they doing about boxing and mma?

Is that relevant to understanding the risks involved in participating in all aspects of association football?

Your point is?

Heading is part of the game. Take that away and it'll be similar to 5 a side.

I merely asked whether decisions made in relation to sports that involve deliberate attempts to cause brain trauma are relevant to heading in football.

Rather torn on this, having spent probably 15 years of my younger years playing football in defence and heading the ball a lot (I was always much better with my head than my feet!!) I then developed neurological problems a few years back in my early 40's, no evidence it was from football, albeit there is no evidence that it isn't as my consultant has no idea of the cause.

I agree that we would have a very different sport without heading, so its probably down to individual choices, as I only have a daughter and whilst she enjoys a kick around I cannot see here ever playing much I thankfully won't have to make any choice, if I had a son I would probably give it more thought.

My kids all play organised football and we often practice headers in the back garden. 

If they try to ban heading in football then yes, it's very relevant.

Personally, I think that it shouldn't be banned in the adult game but should be considered in the youth game.

Sorry if this has already been said but will banning heading in youth football lead to worse technique of heading in adults?

Yep, as Rob T argued on the first page of this thread, I think. Minded to agree. Although personally I think even with kids the repetition is a problem more than one-off acts so it's probably enough to restrict repetitive heading drills in training for younger players (which is what the FA have done). Pending, of course, what the research shows.

Maybe not ban it, but how about header drills with foam balls?

Completely pointless. May as well use balloons

Ok, balloons then.

To whom do you refer when you say "they"?  Unless we are talking about changes to the criminal law, isn't this a decision for individual governing bodies?

The thing with boxing etc is, of course, the whole point of the sport is to rattle your opponent's brain in their skull.  I'm not sure whether you can do much else to make it 'safer'.  If you participate, you do so in knowledge of the risks/consequences.

Football is a bit different in that there are things that could be done to make it safer (assuming it is not safe).  This may lead to changes at certain levels of the game but it is an important debate.

As said earlier, the game does not stand still and will continue to evolve.

Compounded head trauma. It's not rocket science. Yet I know nothing, as many here like to point out.

Yes, I'm a neurologist now :doh:

The Alzheimers Society have quite a good summary of the state of the discussion so far with, importantly, links to the relevant research that has been conducted to date

https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/blog/football-heading-dementia-risk

I'd watch this   :)

https://youtu.be/J-jBI9HbJL4

Don't worry, only yanking your chain :D

"It is not the heading in the games that necessarily caused the dementia, more the daily training and repetitive drills."

Fuck me, I read that bit too. What a dickhead(er)  :doh:

Yes, we should definitely ban heading in football...let's ban every fucking thing and go and live in air tight bubbles....

Next thing will be that 'they' stop playing the original version of Fairytale of New York on the radio ...

They haven't.

You scumbag you maggot you cheap lousy meatball made from minced off-cuts and offal, especially pork together with herbs for flavouring and sometimes added bread crumbs.

Bit harsh JJ  :)

Just politically correcting the lyrics :)

This makes for firmly grim reading:

PFA-funded study of 8000 former professionals who played between 1930-1999 suggests outfield players (not goalkeepers) have around four times the risk of developing dementia than equivalent people who are not footballers, up to five times for those with long careers.

Most worryingly, no obvious drop off as balls become lighter and the game becomes a bit less aerial into the 90s.

https://www.thepfa.com/news/2021/8/2/dementia-risk-player-position-career-length?fbclid=IwAR30MZEOe93FhhODu_6AkZdkcjGsbUiJo3kWcjf4MtJElGVx4aAHo0ZntO4

I don't know what the answer is (and ban heading is probably over-simplifying it) but that's pretty firm evidence of a link. Can consenting adults take the risk? Probably, same as for other injury risks, but it's important that people at least know what that risk is.