Thetownend.com

Just for curiosity reasons, to see if the members of TEF are of similar mind to the national population.

I have responded to your call, but I always lie to opinion pollsters.

I can't see the lib scums getting that much of the vote.

Interesting as current opinion polls run at:

Brexit 34%
Labour 20%
Lib Dem 15%
Tories 12%

A number of polls show the LDs have overtaken Labour nationally and one puts them as winning London (percentage wise) and doing extremely well in the South West, their traditional heartlands.

There's another poll that puts Tories fifth behind the greens.

Says everything about how farcical it all is when a party with no manifesto/policies(Brexit party) and only 1 agenda will get many votes.

Corbyn won't have done Labour many favours on Marr earlier. As non committal as ever in where they stand

Agreed but some would argue the manifestos of labour and conservative are worth shit.
The party will have a manifesto before a general election and I think they will shake things up, whether for good or bad remains to be seen

Wouldn't it be better for us to say who voted for AFTER polling day and compare it the actual results of the election?

agree. I'm voting green for that reason.

Certainly in the Tories case that's true as they lied last time and have since stolen deas put forward by Ed Milliband pre the 2010 general election since. I'm sure Labour would not deliver everything they claim they would too. I don't think the Brexit lot will shake anything up. They're a protest vote only and have nothing of any substance or worth to them. Farage is a vile man and the local poundshop version in Swindon, Martin Costello was telling us to vote for him as a ukip candidate 2 weeks ago.

It will be a protest vote but I think it will be sustained until we leave the EU. Farage has absolutely nailed the mood of a lot of people.
A lot of leavers are people who voted and left it at that, not got involved in social media etc. Farage speaks for them and he speaks for me on brexit. I'm not sure he's any more vile than a lot of others.

Will certainly be interesting to see how accurate the polls are, as in how many votes Farage acquires against the 2 main parties. The next general election will also be quite interesting.

You have to hand it to Farage he does the con man trick very well... get people of dubious provenance to hand him decent wedges of money, while spouting something which he'll never have to deliver.  In the meantime, carry on racking up his MEP pension, with opportunities for shorting the £.

They are a deeply dispiriting lot to be sure, but beware of what you get in a "can't be any worse" vote. None of the others want to scrap the NHS, for example (or at least they haven't said so publicly, I'm sure there's a few of the more swivel-eyed Tories would love to).
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-nhs-might-have-to-be-replaced-by-private-health-insurance-9988904.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/all-the-times-ukip-has-called-for-nhs-privatisation-nigel-farage-paul-nuttall-2017-2?r=US&IR=T

Or hang round with the nutters on InfoWars (Alex Jones, the guy who's being sued by bereaved parents of the Sandy Hook massacre for inciting hate mobs against them in his claims that the massacre didn't happen).  
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-accused-of-using-antisemitic-codewords-on-conspiracy-theorist-alex-jones-show-1.483803
(I would add "Or keep repeating dog-whistle anti-semitism" but Labour have got form on that.)

He's also strong pro-fox hunting and has previously said he'd repeal the ban (again, tbf, he shares that in common with several of the Tory leadership candidates)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/nigel-farage-joins-kent-boxing-day-hunt-for-early-morning-pint-a7496431.html

And, again in common with some Labour figures, he's previously said he thinks we might have to have a second referendum:
https://fullfact.org/europe/deja-eu-referendum/

Then there's the notorious "invasion" poster, dog-whistle racism at it's finest. And just the many lies he's been shown to have told and help spread during the referendum campaign:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/unfounded-claim-turkey-swing-brexit-referendum/

And the illegal funding of those lies:
https://www.ft.com/content/4610a4be-dde2-11e8-9f04-38d397e6661c

I'll leave the consistent allegations that the Russians were the ultimate source of that funding, because as you'll argue, it's not been proven. Yet.

But yeah, if you're comfortable with all that, then Farage might be a lying, self-serving friend of the far-right, racists, and  foxhunters, and an enemy of the NHS but he's not "any of the rest". For that matter neither is the convicted football hooligan, woman-beater, fraudster and drug dealer Tommy Robinson. So equally good reasons to vote for him too.

I just hope that people will respect the will of the electorate this time, and not question the validity of the result if it doesn't go their way.

I surmise that a lot of die hard lefties cannot bing themselves to vote new or old labour and have flipped over to the limp demons.

A better interpretation of the voting intentions in thus far, is that the TEF was a remain majority place in June 2016, and most of the intended votes flagged here are for pro Remain parties, so hardly a surprise.

As has been pointed out on many an occasion, the TEF is not a place where you'll find too many left leaning types.

I don't think this election can give any kind of bearing on any potential general election. For instance the Brexit party wouldn't have anything to campaign for. I'd definitely vote Labour to try to remove the Tories too. I'm sure many would vote Conservative to try to keep Labour out also.

It's obvious the Brexit party are going to do well in this one coming up. People that believe we should leave the EU will vote for them. All rather pointless though as they will have zero input in any leaving negotiations.

90% of those voting brexit party in the euros intend to vote for them in a general election. This party is not just for the euros.

People are idiots then, given the lack of anything tangible policy wise.

How can you possibly know that?

Sunday mirror poll

Green for me. I'm hard remain, but couldn't vote for the LibDems. Their backing of austerity was what got us into this mess in the first place.

I like the attitude of a guy I spoke to who said that he voted remain in the referendum to decide if the United Kingdom should leave the European Union. He then said he will vote for the Brexit Party on 23rd May 2019 and would vote for the UK to !eave the EU in, please not, any second referendum on EU membership. His reason being that democracy had previously been scuppered by the denialists.

I’m quite certain The Brexit Party policy is exactly what it says on the tin? I’m also pretty sure that Farage mentioned something about a manifesto coming out after the EU elections ready for the general elections but I’ll bow down to those who follow politics better than me and happily be corrected.

I'm assuming the brexit issue will be resolved by the next GE, a dangerous assumption granted

Farage said manifestos are old style politics. He has no intention of issuing one. He is the old style politician....an autocrat from the 1930s who simply rouses the rabble and shouts down opposing voices. He is profoundly dangerous. If the country votes as it seems it will, then you ain't seen nothing yet in terms of chaos.

No, over spending got us into austerity.

Yes, the government spent £500 billion on bailing out the banking system.... a classic case of socialism for the rich and neoliberalism for the poor, the Americans followed suit, as this was a global problem.

Unsurprisingly no banker was ever brought to court.... you try not paying your Council Tax, even local Tory Councillor Heenan, was brought before the beak for his non payment.

Its obvious that Brexit Party is going to do well for the simple reason that in the last round of EU elections UKIP 'won' with 27% of the vote. As UKIP has veered further rightwards, Farage's company provides a (at first glance if one doesn't bore too deep) respectable home for Kippers not prepared to hold their noses. However as they are polling c.30% (or were last time I checked) its not the landslide of Tories and Labour voters the media are trying to portray, there was a thought that they would get at least 50% of the Tory vote from last time which on rough figures should have given them c.40%?

 
You surmise well wide of the mark, one only has to look at social media to see that Labour lefties won't go anywhere near the Lib Dems, actually a lot of old school hard lefties (including certain communist groups) are very closely involved with Farage's project, google Claire Fox and if you can get beyond her interesting views of child porn see where she was previously involved.  

No, problems in the world economy ultimately got us into austerity, as they will again whether or not we leave the EU.

You're not a fan are you? :)

Did that leak through? :)

Some would say most elections are pointless, but this one surely takes the biscuit?

Farage got milkshaked in Newcastle. soapy tit wank

And within seconds the comment "my milkshakes brings all the boys to Ferage" was made.

I prefer...

all around me are familiar faces
throwing milkshakes
cos I'm racist

Actually the best bit of the various videos is the fact that you can hear people just laughing at him all the time, he will hate that!

That laughing sounds like a witch....quite scary....

Pretty much a bog standard politician then ?.

Green for me, more because I can't stomach the others than anything else.

Lib Dem for me for same reason

Same here

Never really understood why the wishy washy liberals are, in the main, the party of choice for disaffected voters.

With the environmental doomsday not that far away, hoping that a few more will go Green.

This election is just an administrative exercise that will test the doodling skills of quite a few who bother to turn up.

the wishy washy have the slogan 'bollocks to brexit'.

its a clear choice for remain.

Although the greens have the same policy on brexit, I honestly think people are less convinced on their ability to govern outside environmental issues. unfair on them mind

Greens usually do well in Euro elections as it is a bloc wide vote, and environmental concerns are higher in most leading European countries than UK. This is why I've always voted Green at Euro elections.... and last time got an MEP. 

The EU environmental standards, have been of benefit to the UK.... things like clean beaches, whereas other policies have been disastrous like the CAP.  The lowering of environmental standards is one of the aims of Brexiteers... and why things like fracking are banned in many EU countries but actively pursued by Tory politicians and other Brexiteers.

I think the simple choice for many is Lib Dem v. Green.

Its a tricky one for me as on the PV March last year both Cable and Lucas spoke and he came across pretty crap and she was brilliant, however on a local personal level I have had direct involvement with Green Councillors and they were as crap, dodgy and prepared to blatantly lie through their teeth just to get their way as the mainstream parties.

So on the balance for now the LD's get it, plus is the most sensible vote up here when one looks at it tactically.

See Ann Widdecombe's lost none of her trademark compassion since jumping ship from the Tories to the Farage Party. Asked what message she had for Honda workers she said "Factories close all the time". Or "Fuck 'em".

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/17654873.factories-close-all-the-time-brexit-partys-ann-widdecombe-on-honda/?ref=mr&lp=6

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1118815400932847616?s=09

Fuck Farage.

BXP candidates are an interesting bunch....

https://medium.com/@SJHolloway/this-is-everything-i-discovered-about-all-of-the-brexit-party-mep-candidates-2a59f8f850c5

They include several of the leading stalwarts of the now (thankfully) defunct Revolutionary Communist Party who were always considered oddballs even by the standards of the far left. I assume that means neither SRK or Legends Lounge will be voting for the Brexit Party given their oft-repeated hatred of "commies"

If it has nothing to do with Brexit as she suggests, wouldn't it be a little more compassionate to actually take the opportunity to sympathise with the workers and give some idea of what you would do if elected to address their problems?

Having seen the ballot sheet for the south-west UK constituency I am worried that there might be confusion between:

 - The Brexit party, and

 - UKIP - making Brexit happen.

This could seriously split two of the many leave parties, and cause uproar as did the "Literal Democrats" issue in the 1994 Euro elections. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Huggett#1994_European_Parliament_election

Shouldn’t be. Brexit party have the edge which is making everyone else twitchy by having an arrow on their logo pointing to the box to mark your x 😉 Simples if only the others had thought of that 🤣🤣🤣🤣

You could vote for Fozzie Bear for all that it counts for.

Is that one of the candidates in the United States of America where you economically emigrated to?

Nice one. Fucking limeys, going over there and taking work from your average joe.

I have just voted for the Brexit Party. Until now I have been a life-long Liberal Democrat supporter.

Someone I know is voting for LDs for the first time in their life (ex-Con).

This is going to be interesting. Let's all respect the result.

Respect the result of an election for MEPs to an institution we're supposed to be withdrawing from? The thing's a farce before it even starts

He'd probably win over here.

Also, given recent pedantry on here, I'm a Resident Non-Immigrant - given temporary leave to stay for up to 7 years.  Many more hoops to get the Resident Alien status.  If I popped down to Mexico apparently you can just walk back over the border and live the life of a millionaire if you fancy.

The EP elections are a farce for the UK, so yeah, lets respect the pointless results and let them get on with their important job in shaping the future of the EU institution, regulations and budget.....oh!

So you will not be wasting your valuable time to vote then. Excellent idea.

Isn't this the "people's vote" that so many have been demanding?

So a past referendum that doesn't go your way, you ignore.

A current election which the polls say will not go your way, your ignore.

Hey, let's three of us vote what to eat: pizza or pasta? When two vote for pizza, please don't let the third whinge, and scream and stamp their feet coz they didn't get what they want. Just accept the result.

I love visiting Europe and some of the food it has to offer. I just don't want to be in a United States of Europe. Nor do the majority of UK voters by the looks of it.

why would you vote, what the fuck for?  Half the people don't even want to be part of the EU (it's way more than that, but most people are rightly just scared of leaving a huge trading bloc).  The EP is there for a reason, we don't want it, so why would you vote for someone to be in it?  For starters, every one standing on a Brexit platform should give their income away that they would receive from the EP.  Any way, as I said, pointless farce.  Your vote really doesn't matter in this instance, not that very many people ever did vote in these elections with the right intentions anyway.

No, this is a vote to shape an important institution - so important we want to get ourselves removed from it's influence.  If it wasn't important, the Brexit concept wouldn't be needed, no?  Now, if we were staying, then it would be important, especially if you wanted to be in the EU but shape it differently, yes.

It is nothing of the sort when it comes to a second peoples vote.  That's been done, we voted out.  All that's happening right now is that we are exposing our own Parliament to be a shambles - but that is the joy of being the masters of our own destiny, we get the shit we vote for.

Just so we are clear - I respect the OUT vote, we should just take our medicine and Hard Brexit.  That comes from the most pro-EU person on these boards I'd imagine, because I am fully supportive of the idea of some sort of USE and wouldn't give a toss if the Pound vanished - I said all this while living in it for 41 years as well.

Well done. This is actually a quite brilliant portrayal of Brexiteers' views. We want pizza, and even though you may enter anaphylactic shock if you eat it, you must accept the will of the majority if it kills you. That's why the referendum has fundamentally broken the country, and why many people will never accept its result.

I was quite looking forward to a good curry, only then to have some other people come along and tell me that I had to have something else instead.

This election for me is a part side bet. I think its fair to say I want out. I still want to vote in this election. First of all to continue to have a Brexit voice and keep the pressure up. Secondly, if we don't leave, we can have a group of people expressing my sentiments inside the parliament.
I still don't believe we'll leave so this vote is important to me.

No, it's a pointless election that should never have taken place if May had pulled her finger out.
Actually if you bothered to read any of my posts instead of assuming you know what I think, you'd see I've repeatedly said that I'm against a second referendum and the result of the 2016 referendum must be respected.

Looks like once again someone has royally fucked up the registration system meaning that loads of EU citizens living over here have not been registered despite returning all the paperwork within the deadline to do so.

 

Not to mention UK citizens living in France who didn't get their voting cards on time, thanks to some councils trying to save a few quid by going with a private postal provider rather than Royal Mail

Probably the Russians. I'd put a smiley here if I wasn't too stupid.

Only you saying that - you don't wear the inferiority complex well

I'm a fat git. I don't wear anything well.

Royal Mail is a private provider.... it was made so by Horlock's mate Cable.

If it was Switzerland I'd guess at Yodel.

36% turnout in Swindon.

I must be in one of those 'bubbles' as I expected big turnouts - 36% Swindon and 44% Wiltshire Council areas isn't exactly great.

There are a hell of a lot of people who don't give a fuck if we stay or go. There are then a lot of people who have an opinion but just want it over even if it doesn't go their way.

Where have you seen that CS?

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/17664435.eu-votes-at-to-do/

"A spokesman for Swindon Borough Council said it recorded between 40 and 450 calls form people who weren't able to vote". I'm assuming the 450 is the standard Adver shoddiness and it's a typo for 45 (like form/from, Jesus they are crap), but even so, how do SBC not know how many calls they recorded? Unless they didn't actually take a record at all, but just guessed? Shit either way.

This is me, exactly. Just get it done one way or the other so we can start the process of reassembling something from the mess

Although a strong advocate of leave I'm pretty much there.   Sometimes I think just fucking stay which is better than Mays deal. Then I think, no fuck off, I feel dirty because that's what the establishment clearly wants.
At some stage someone is going to have to be honest. Revoke and fuck off the 52% or no deal leave and fuck off the 48%. I appreciate there are shades of grey in between but someone just fucking do it and lets move on.
If someone in the UK doesn't do it then hopefully the EU say no extensions and decision done by end October.
Brexit gets blamed for a lot of things but brexit uncertainty is even worse.
Cameron and may have a lot to answer for and Corbyn is just as bad the useless indecisive shitcunt.

What you need to remember is that this has been about the internal politics of the Tories from the start, and still is, but now events are probably spiralling out of control.  With that in mind, in the interests of the country, there should be a GE providing the opportunity to remove them.

Atm we see a rump group of remain Tory MP's threatening dire consequences if Johnson gets the nod, so it will be interesting to see if they put up or shut up, if it happens.

If a GE was called tomorrow I wouldn't be surprised to see farage get in, mandate or no mandate. If he could get a third of the vote he'd be in. The ultimate protest vote. The time is absolutely perfect for him or a more centrist party but change UK have fucked up to may proportions. Tories are fucked and labour have move away from a lot of their traditional supporters.

A lot of people voting for him this week would go back to their natural home for a general election, as shown with previous euro elections compared to GE’s. The remaining hardcore Farage fanboys will then be spread too thin across the country to get more than a handful of seats at the most. As shown in 2015 when 12% of the vote got them 1 seat.

The 'get it done' argument misses the point.  Brexit is not an event.  It's a process that will take years.  The initial withdrawal is simply the starting gun being fired.  We would then face years, perhaps even a decade or two, of renegotiation to reconfigure our existing arrangements with the rest of the world...all in order to make ourselves less prosperous and less well heard than we are now.

What's even more galling is that it will then fall to our children to undo the damage.  That too will take years.  So I'm making sure that my kids understand now that I opposed this nonsense from the start.

The day that man gets anywhere near office is the day I'll leave the UK (if not before). He's a Jester (a very good one, I'll admit), like Boris. To them it is all a big game of 'Soggy Biscuit' and boy have they been jizzing themselves lately.

The irony is that anyone who would potentially vote for Farage (or his party) in a GE might as well stand on a cliff, with a huge salmon and slap themselves in the face with it - essentially it's suicide. Largely, I'm talking about a good chunk of blokes in their mid 50s to mid 60s, who benefitted from a slightly easier economic time and drawing fairly good pensions. Now those kind of voters are pretty much shitting on their own offspring and their grandkids to boot.

Fucking, lemmings (was a good game mind).

What you conveniently ignore is that your beloved Labour (new or old) are ignoring their voters who voted to leave and putting their desperate party interests first by thwarting any deal that May has cobbled together to get a GE. Combined with cross party slavish loyalty to the EU the electorate are being royally fucked over. If the U.K. does not leave and by that I mean leave in a manner that serves the U.K. first then going forward there is and will be no point in anyone voting for anything ever again. What would be the point? Which suits your agenda. You realise that your classless socialist utopia is never going to occur within the UK. Your next best option is to have the hated upper class or people with more money than you diluted by being sucked into a federalist superstate controlled by left leaning leaurocracy and politicians from the old communist bloc.

The EU will I suspect keep granting extensions until the country is exhausted and just rolls over and admits defeat and we stay. That would be a fucking disaster. We’d effectively give away our veto and rebate and be like a neutered dog in a kennel full of bitche’s on heat. Just a cash cow to the greedy French and domineering Germans. Let’s be honest we all know who pull the strings. They may have lost two wars but by hook or by crook they intend to win the peace.

After the Ref, Labour voted to activate Art 50, actually ignoring the wishes of the 60% of Labour voters who ticked Remain.

In the 2017 Manifesto was a commitment to honour the outcome of the Ref, but seek the best deal and oppose no deal, which should include a general election.

The complaint amongst many Labour voters is too much emphasise was given to leave voters, a minority in the party and not enough to the remain element.

The rest of your stuff about the end of democracy, and domineering Germans is just paranoid fantasy, and unworthy of reply.

Good luck with that one.  When this winning formula emerges, I'll be all ears.

Genuine question: what does that look like, in your opinion? What is your preferred (realistic) arrangement for us leaving the EU?

As per the question on the ballot paper. Leave all the EU institutions and never go back. Simples.

With a withdrawal agreement? Without? With trade agreements agreed beforehand or attempt to negotiate post-exit?

It just said leave, no mention of not leaving unless we had a deal. No free unicorns,no continued alingment with the EUSSR,  no dave's deal or any other fucking deal,fuckall but leave. Whats so hard to understand, it wasn't a multi choice question.

cool. leave with a permanent SM and customs Union agreement, with freedom of movement. I'll take that.

And would you want an ongoing trade relationship with the EU after we left?

LL?

Well it was as there was 2 choices. Like the one on your profile which is 202-10 that you are a cunt v being alright.

203 actually. I forgot my usual vote, silly me.

Sure you would, that's not leave its remain. You voted remain didn't like the result, suits you fine more eu membership.
You'll be Ok with the nation paying billions for that arrangement.

Your mums going to be angry with you posting late at night. well past your bed time Orange Bob.
Oh yes your on the wrong fan site its Swindon not Blackpool.

its still leaving the political post of the EU.

therev were only 2 choices on the ballot sheet. this isn't remain, must fit the leave option then

Only one donkey here. I’m 39 by the way unless the mum comment had other connotations I’m unsure of?

You rang?

Haha. Bring me my Horlicks please. I think it must be bedtime.

Cheers.

Hammer time.

Swindon 36% brexit

The Swindon figures according to BBC Wilts:

https://twitter.com/bbcwiltshire/status/1132760817898852353?s=21

Swindon #EUelections results:
Brexit Party 19,126
Lib Dem 9,511
Lab 7,838
Green 6,861
Con 5,550
UKIP 2,115

Brexiters will claim victory when it's anything but. The remain vote is split via various parties and the town is divided on brexit. This election does fuck all good for anyone

Early days yet. Brexiteers may not claim victory but it may prove that people are not overwhelmingly remain as claimed.

I'm referring to Swindon but think it will be similar nationally. I think it's split now much like when we had the initial referendum.

But it overwhelmingly proves there is no mandate for a hard brexit

Yep. Slight increase for Brexit, but mainly due to impatience rather than ideology I suspect. Good to see SRK's extreme hard right UKIP getting a complete pasting, polling even lower than the Tories. Their leader Batten has lost his own seat

Looks to me like it might pave the way for a shit or bust referendum - the Brexit Party didn't get enough, in my mind, to force Hard Brexit through,  Equally though, it gained more than UKIP lost, so people can't say that a sizable part of the country didn't really mean Hard Brexit.

Libs Dems and Greens did quite well, so maybe the final resolution is No deal or fuck it all and just stay.

 :D :pint: :D :pint: that is not Guinness. Varadkar can fuck off, punching above his weight with the Frogs & Krauts with their hands up his arse.

I was all for allowing a Hard Brexit and certainly not for another vote to happen, however, the Conservative drop off is significant given it didn't all go to Brexit.  Muddies the waters  but I think we can't faff about thinking some sort of in/out deal is possible.  It's all or nothing now.  If the Rories had held some vote  I'd have said just get on with it, but was surprised to see Lib Dems and Greens pick-up as much as they did.

We have now had the people's vote. No more spin from you anti-democateers please. The people have spoken, not in an opinion poll, but in cold, hard votes. We leave the EU asap. OK?

On the currently announced results (missing Scotland and NI):

Hard Brexit (BXP + UKIP) 36.8%
Remain (LD + GRN + CHUK) 37.0%
May's Deal (Con) 8.8%
Soft Brexit (Lab) 14.6%

Pretty tough to draw anything conclusive from that, other than that one way or the other a lot of people are going to be very cross.

The problem remains, though. That result wouldn’t be repeated in a GE. It’s nonsense for anyone to think to hold a GE on whether to exit, soft exit or no exit - that should be a referendum.

Voting for the Lib Dem’s in a GE just because you want to register a stay vote is ridiculous.

How long can it go on before parliament comes to the only sane way out of this impasse.

How about this conclusion:

According to the above figures 60.2% of those who voted have voted for the United Kingdom to end membership of the European Union (UKExit). Then let's LEAVE the European Union. Negotiations can then begin for anyone who wants to re-establish links with EU.

What on earth is wrong with the above. It honours the result of the 2016 referendum and today's continuing desire of the majority of those who exercised their right to vote. We now have a way forward.

How about this alternative conclusion?

Turnout 16.6m, 36.7% of the eligible electorate. Nearly two thirds of the UK is so apathetic and unresponsive to this historically shit state of affairs that they can't be arsed to even express an opinion. The country deserves what's coming, frankly.

The Brexit Party vote will force the Tories to adopt a Hard Brexit/WTO policy, and the next leader will have to be someone prepared to go down that road.  That will split the Tories down the middle.  Whether the Hard Brexit wing of the Tories then joins the Brexit Party or tries to compete with it is anyone's guess.

Labour will then have to react.  They will finally have to get off the fence and either come out for Remain (in line with the majority of their supporters' wishes) or a 2nd referendum.  Not sure Corbyn can survive as leader if that happens.  Patience with him must be wearing thin.

Meanwhile, Scotland edges ever closer to independence and the UK to being an ex-country.  Maybe it always had to be like this.  Popular opinion is so split.  Maybe there is no real way out.

A scotland split will make the leave vote in England and Wales even bigger. the odd thing is Scotland wants to be an independent Nation. Will it launch its own currency at no small cost, then rejoin the eu, dumping the new currency for the Euro? that's not going to be cheap. Coupled with full memebership payments and being controlled by Brussels? it will wreck their new country, which would no longer be independent. What's left of the UK will be free of the Scottish financial burden and can move forward. No one's asked we Jimmy cranky how's she's going to pay for all that with a few Salmon farms and a dozen whisky factories. Most of the oil has gone and so they're of little financial use to the eu, who by all accounts don't like Haggis.

If, by 'it', you mean a hard/WTO Brexit, there is no mandate for this.  So no.

And round we go...

Basically it’s been 40% Remain and 35% no deal.  Taking UKIP as Brexit Party, the most improved parties as against 2014 have been LDs and Greens.

Still waiting for an answer from Legends Lounge on this. Interesting, because he's normally so quick to jump down people's throats

Can't blame him for jumping down peoples throats if they keep repeating the same shite. There was no multi choice on the ballot paper. Just Dave's shitty deal or leave the EU. not brino, not soft brexit, no unicorns, no you can change your mind before we leave. FFS stop spouting the elites mantras.

208

Said without a hint of irony.

I mean "leaving the EU" as was on the referendum paper in 2016 & the single issue on which the party gaining the most votes in 2019 campaigned for.

Any further delay will prolong the uncertainty, therefore we need you to come on board for the good of the country. Are you with us or are you a traitor?

Says the bloke who turns a blind eye to Russian-financed campaigning.  ::)

How is it that you fuckwits determine that anyone against a no deal (or, simply) Brexit (following a non-legally binding, advisory referendum), is a traitor?

Had there been any evidence provided to prove that. It's oft claimed but unless I've missed something never proved. It may be true but unproven. The more farage is slurred the stronger he gets.
All yesterday proved was what we knew before maybe with a bit more polarisation. Maybe more leavers than imagined happy with no deal. We are where we were.
Both labour and conservative need to be very careful about calling a general election. I don't think they can be certain normal voting intentions will revert. This isn't a normal situation.

You're right that it's unproven, but only because investigations are still ongoing, including into the origin of Twitter bots in this most recent campaign. Banks and Farage play clever with the law, because they know that by the time the wheels of justice have turned, the agenda will have moved on so far they'll be out of sight. Leave.EU's methods of manipulation were exposed in a recent C4 documentary though.

That said, I think you're right that by this stage, very many people's view of Brexit is as simple as "just get it done". Of course, they don't have to deal with the complexities of delivering it, which the actual professionals have failed to do for three years. They're just bored of the same old circular news cycle.

I guess this is where you end up if you ask a question without a clue as to what to do with the answer.

I seriously have questions over the professionalism of those who have tried so far. First of all separating the withdrawal agreement from the trade deal and then the withdrawal agreement itself. I think a lot of leavers see it as an agreement dictated by Brussels. A lot of leavers also can't believe we never seriously played the no deal card or had businessmen involved. So many fuck ups.
I think this has hardened leavers towards no deal.
It will be interesting to see if the allegations are eventually proven. I don't doubt farage sails close to the wind but I'd argue it's not a level playing field to start with.

Anyone who's for controlled immegration is a racist. Ergo, anyone who wants to stay in the eussr is a traitor. Simples

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

I feel sorry for CS, a sensible reasoned approach when backing up his beliefs in wanting Brexit.  Then you have the others who make it up as they go along

Are you a Barry Stanton tribute act?  You’re like some sixth form performance art project. At least, I hope you are...

Whilst it would prolong matters maybe revoking article 50 would be a sensible option.  Gives time to start agian with proper negotiations and an agreed stance all parties having had their input. The 2016 result is still the goal but hopefully any agreement will be a better one and not in the EU's favour. May should not have negotiated alone and have taken a wider consultation before she started.

Two problems revoking article 50.
1. Apparently it can't be used just to buy time. There must be good reason to do it.
2. Would parliament enact it again.
MPs enacted it knowing they would have to agree a deal or we would leave without a deal. It's up to them to live up to what they overwhelmingly agreed.

Surely good reason is we can't get a consensus. EU don't want a no deal brexit and about time we started to push them on this matter. Seems we have just laid back and taken it. We need to start making it uncomfortable for them. Yes a pain to keep this going but does take away the 'cliff edge'

"Six form performance art project" I'd take that any day, nicest thing anyones ever said about me on this site!

Although the EU don't want no deal, it is us seeking to leave and untie 40 years+ of generally benficial areas of shared sovereignty.  To give a small example of the sort of idiocy our resident no deal chums want to land us with, is energy.

As part of the EU we're in something called the Internal Energy Market.  This enables such things as surplus electrictity generated say in France, which has a lot of nuclear and spare capacity, which it sells to us via under channel cables.... spare capacity can flow the other way if necessary, but UK doesn't generate suffoicient energy to meet its needs especially if you get harsh climate change events like last years Beast from the East. 

Further gas can be traded within the EU free of tariff, increasingly important as North Sea supplies dwindle.  Leave without a deal and become a 3rd country and straight away you lose those benefits... of course you can still buy the products , but they cease to be tariff free.  It's estimated that no deal would put an extra £500 mill, onto electricty costs which will be passed onto consumers.... further gas costs would be raised by £6 bn...  to be passed to industry and domestic users.

Yes but if they have excess energy and need to sell it it's a buyers market. Can't see them saying no if you make an offer. In fact could well get a better deal. If we had not sold out our energy utilities and water we would be in a better place and not held to ransom. Remember we only voted for a common marker. Everything else has been agreed by governments of all colours without consultation. That's why the 2016 result happened. France gets over 60% of the agricultural budget so their farmers can do nothing then holds us to ransom on energy!! Very equal!!

absolutely no chance parliament would unilaterally revoke A50, and rightly so.

In the unlikely event it does get revoked, it has to be because the people changed their mind (i.e. ref #2).

I don't think ref #2 is likely either.

I've some bad news for you.... you vote in government, it does stuff, it doesn't consult you along the way.  Should you not like what it does you can vote it out every 4 or 5 years.

The only time I can recall being held to ransom on fuel, was the OPEC oil crisis of the 70's. Proper fucked the economy, and made joining the nascent EU even more necessary.  We then had the sight of Sheikh Yemani appearing on the Beeb to address the British people and explain, although the country was going down the pan, this wasn't OPEC's aim, and all would be good as long as we paid triple for the price of petrol and oil overnight. Yet to see Macron pitch up on the box.

The process of adjustment ripped inflation through the economy, savings became worthless overnight, and wages bought you fuck all. I remember getting a 25% pay rise, in order to bring it back up to basic living standard.

CAP isn't great and needs further reform, but governments will subsidise farmers, as feeding your populus is a basic requirement in a civilsed country... which is why there's increasing concern about the growth of food banks.

Alternatively
6,085,140: number of people who signed Revoke Article 50 petition, which was dismissed by Brexiters as ‘not 17.4m people’.
5,244,893: number of people who voted for Brexit Party, which Brexiters now believe gives them a mandate for ‘no-deal’.

Just a hypothetical question regarding a 3rd referendum the first one in the 70's was for remain even though the public were mislead with a promise of a new deal which wasn't forth coming. The 2nd ref. 2016 was dave's deal or leave which even with the government spunking 9 million pounds of tax payers and nearly all media outlets supporting remain, remain lost. Now the fist ref. was immediate remain. The second ref hasn't been honoured, as we know a remain vote would have been in the blink of an eye. So why should the 3rd vote be binding? Its just keep voting untill you get the right result. What's more if I and many others don't like the result can we have another ref, or is only remain binding?

What was Dave's deal?

Prior to the referendum Cameron went to the EU and got some reforms and opt-outs from a few bits and pieces to make the idea of staying in the EU more palatable to some in his own party. The whole thing has really just been about the Tories' internal splits. Possibly the only positive to come out of the whole sorry mess might be that they look to be on course to completely implode. In which case Cameron and May will be up there among the greatest every Tory leaders.

The number of Brexiteers that have only the most basic grasp of English is revealing. I doubt you were anywhere near the Sixth Form at school.

That's not quite right, the total collapse of UKIP after they drifted to the extremes of the far right and the abject humiliation of "Man of the People" Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (aka Tommy Robinson), were also quite gratifying

He asked the EU for fuck all and got less. The EU will not reform the answer to every question is more EU. Some will be happy with that and a move to a united States of Europe. I know some that would be very happy with it. Others like me don't and although it will be a shitter will be easier now than further down the line with even greater integration

Thanks. Reason I asked was due to not seeing anything like that on the ballot paper. Same as I didn't see anything regarding no deal brexit either.

Best headline so far in the Daily Mail this morning.

RICHARD LITTLEJOHN: Pundit after pundit was wheeled out to rubbish the election result – it's as if you'd watched Man City win the Cup Final 6-0 only to be told the real winners were Watford.

Of course anything in the Daily Mail, Express and Telegraph can be dismissed as lies by Tory toff baby eaters but none the less very apt.

The result is neither here nor there is it? It is what happens between now and October 31st that will be interesting. 😂😂

Except it wasn't 6-0 was it. Or even close to that convincing.

It's that kind of attitude that helps keep the divide going. I voted remain and have a horrific grasp on the english language due to be dyslexic until i was 14. Does not mean i voted leave though,yours and others like you and your snobbish attitude the way you talk down to people are as equally as bad as anyone who voted leave.

Its a set of results that supports just about any narrative you want. We are where we were unsurprisingly. The majority of people couldn't give a shit. Those who feel strongly gravitated to parties that were absolutely clear what they were standing for. Others who could be bothered to vote, voted along more traditional lines. The country was divided, it still is.
Brexit has seen Cameron and May off. It may well see the next Tory leader off and I think Corbyn may well be next as his hedging all bets didn't work and he's coming under increasing challenge to actually lead which he has spectacularly failed to do. He's still the Tories biggest asset.

3rd time of asking: what does "leaving in a manner that serves the UK first" look like? Starting to think you don't actually know?

Elections to the Europen Parliament, needs to be placed in overall European context.... and here it was encouraging to see gains made by the Greens, and far right parties not getting their predicted surge. This should enable the Greens to push a more environmentally friendly agenda, especially on climate change into the mainstream centrists politics, of the Social Democrats (Labour in GB) and Christian Democrats (old Tory in UK).

Cameron and May were both seen off by their own incompetence.... Brexit a symptom of that.  Labour has shown signs of wising up of moving further to the left, to take on board green issues, but it has before now without delivering anything concrete... apart from new builds in green fields.

Agree with what you have said. If fact we are where we are because the country has not had an opportunity to vote before (2016) on leaving. The 2016 referendum was the very first opportunity. Originally, we voted to go into a 'common market' then every government since has taken us deeper. It has been said that if we did not like it  then we could vote against it in General elections. BUT.. No party has raised the issue or had leave in its Manifesto. If the Brexit party or UKIP were around  years ago  then maybe this would have raised its head sooner. In fact is that UKIP probably the first opportunity and now Brexit Party to actually gauge national opinion on the matter! Yes governments are voted in to run the the country on all matters. Being in Europe has been one sided with little opportunity to vote before 2016 on leaving, hence this issue now. It can be seen that the main parties are not in favour so who do you vote for if you wished a Brexit to happen. Clearly there is now a party that may now go forward to actually allow voters a voice on this matter in a General Election!

Yeah cos they weren't misled in the slightest in 2016 now were they....  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


All media outlets, really?????  :clap:

You take rose tinted to a whole new level of bollocks!  :suicide:

You are getting evermore cultist by the day, anyway Cable is out the door having done what was needed absorbing the toxicity and mopping up the defecting Labour refugees.

I assume your conclusion on the EU elections is that being spouted all over social media, along the lines of 'Labour were punished for living in the real world. Neither “bollocks to Brexit” nor No Deal. We suffered trying to deliver the will of the people without harming those very people, by pushing for things like a customs union. The result doesn’t make Labour any less grownup.'

As is often the case with Brexiteers what you say is simply not true... the Treaty of Rome of 1957, enacted from 1958, outlined all the ideas for developing a closer European Union between the 6, where desirable. We signed up to it and voted to stay in it in the 70's.

The reasons for this were economic self interest, and despite the crises of the 70's as outlined previously down to global fuel costs... largely the decision was vindicated.

Labour in 83 had a clear policy of withdrawal from the EU in its manifesto, got about 27% of the vote.

Thatcher despite her misgivings was keen on driving through the single market..... here's a sample of a speech she gave to business leaders in 88.

"How we meet the challenge of the Single Market will be a major factor, possibly the major factor, in our competitive position in European and world markets into the twenty-first century.  Getting it right needs a partnership between government and business.

The task of government is two-fold: —to negotiate in Brussels so as to get the possible results for Britain; —and then to make you the business community aware of the opportunities, so that you can make the most of them.

It's your job, the job of business, to gear yourselves up to take the opportunities which a single market of nearly 320 million people will offer.

Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power  of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.

Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.

It's not a dream.  It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away."

Business both large and small often did take the opportunities outlined.  This contrasts with the current state of play, whereby no deal Tory leadership favourite Johnson, can say "fuck business".

Interesting.. was the treaty of Rome something that the country was asked about. Ted Heath took us into a common market not a mention about closer union.  So no one took notice of the 27% back in the day. If indeed Labour pushed the leave ticket strong enough.

The country has not been formally asked about leaving in a single question until 2016.

The view has changed over the years and rightly so the country was asked!

Thought this was reasonably interesting and balanced analysis from Lord Ashcroft's polling group:

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/05/my-euro-election-post-vote-poll-most-tory-switchers-say-they-will-stay-with-their-new-party/

There are narratives in there for every party to be interested in and worried about, but particularly good on the flows from each party - nothing too stunning (Labour lost plenty to the Lib Dems, some to Brexit, and the Tories the opposite) but most depressing for the main parties being that the top reason for voting for them was simply inertia rather than thinking they were any good.

France receives 16% of the agricultural budget, not 60%.  Why do you have to make up things to argue your case?

Yes. There was a referendum in 75, that having signed up to the T of R, provided the option of withdrawing. Previously the UK had been in EFTA, but this didn't provide the hoped for boost to the failing economy, so membership of the EU was sought. Famously UK's applications vetoed by De Gaulle, who felt the UK was merely the lapdog of the US.

Indeed views can change,  that's democracy.... and why there are advocates for a 3rd Ref. Further 2 components of the UK Scotland and NI voted to Remain in the EU, therefore should be granted their wish. Particluarly NI which will be particularly badly hit by no deal.

Here lies, the problem for you... you won but have no idea what it is you won other than to make most of us poorer and promote the interests of the likes of Farage, Johnson amd Rees Mogg.

Assuming I am a brexit fan that is. The referendum was a UK vote and not divided into area's. If you go down that route then maybe the area's in England that voted remain need to have independence as well. Trouble is with this debate is that remainers will not accept the referendum result and are continually looking for reason/s to keep the UK in the EU

Again you just make stuff up.... there has been no effort to block the implementation of the June 16 vote.... rather the result has been honoured every step of the way.  The problem lies... and it's something that PaulD has tried unsucessfully to get an answer to from LL... what does Brexit actually mean, and how can it be delivered?

The Tories spent a couple of years or more, post Cameron with leading Brexiteers in prominent cabinet positions, and their negotiations came up with the current impasse.

Oh, sorry, I don’t answer questions. Well to you anyway. 🤣🤣

Not just you, unfortunately, but why, oh why make things up? Or perhaps it is easier just to keep moving the agenda?

Ted Heath, 1973:

The community which we are joining is far more than a common market.  It is a community in the true sense of that term.

It is concerned not only with the establishment of free trade, economic and monetary union...with social issues - environmental questions, working conditions in industry, consumer protection, aid to development areas and vocational training.

FIFY

Can we call you Nigel?

You can call me what the fuck you like Mr. Batch. I can tell you this with confidence, you could not call me something I have never been called before. I’ll also add that I doubt that judging by what everyone on here says and how they behave they’ve not been called the same. 😁

You’ll have to forgive me Mr. Pauld. I don’t normally bother reading what you post TBH. Though I thought it may be a good laugh to catch up with your diatribe and I now understand the pot kettle comment, my bad... you must be fucking livid that I didn’t jump up to attention and answer your pot kettle comment. Well to be honest I was as you know not talking about you, to you or referring to you so jog on.

However, being the reasonable chap that I am, no, seriously I am. I will leave you with this. Leave means leave, not some half arsed yoghurt knitting mealy mouthed, backscrating bend over and fuck my country and we’ll pay you for the privilege kind of a deal. Hopefully that puts the matter to bed. I do so hope you have a nice week.

Doesn't answer the question any more than "Brexit means Brexit". I'll assume you don't know what you actually want then.

 Given the match tonight... I was thinking it would be a golden opportunity for the UK to use a bit of soft power, and get negotiating a Brexit trade deal with oil rich Azerbaijan... OK, they've a dodgy human rights record, but sometimes you have to hold your nose.

Seems though we already have one through the EU, so in fact we 'll have to negotiate the closing down of that deal, and try and find a new deal which will be more advantageous to the UK and the Azeris. Perhaps one of our resident Brexiteers might explain how that will look  :hmmm:

I guess something like this might be he answer....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_oN0QAelok

I assume leave means leave, means brexit means brexit so basically nothing of substance in the real world?

However if you are pushing the leave with no deal angle so loved by those who haven't really though about the consequences, a little poser for you.

As it stands c.44% of our exports go to the EU and c.53% of our imports come from there, now unless you are proposing that we give up a very large percentage of our exports and accept the employment chaos that would cause and the majority of our imports a lot of which is food, we are going to have to reach some manner of trade deal with the EU going forward.

Does it not cross your mind that the first thing they are going to say in order to open those negotiations, taking note of the size of their market and the size of ours, are;

1. what about that money you still owe us?
2. what about the rights of EU citizens in the UK?
3. what are you planning to do about the Irish border?

And when we provide satisfactory answers to them, then we may talk?

As for who is fucking the country, it looks remarkably like the Brexiteers are doing that?

You do realise that outside of their home markets Audi/Mercedes/BMW's second biggest market is the UK. Don't you think it might be in their interest as much as ours to work out a deal or is your summary just another blinkered view/project fear?

It's also worth remembering that the 1975 referendum took place AFTER the uk had negotiated terms of joining the EC, and the details of that agreement published and agreed by both Houses. So people knew what they were voting for.

In contrast, May's decision to invoke Article 50 without any agreement - with Corbyn's collusion - empowers people to cobble together their own impossible versions of Brexit and spout meaningless phrases like "leave means leave" without consequence so has led us to the mess we are in today.
 

Obviously.....but it isn't them that's pushing for a no deal scenario is it?

Jesus, what is it with Brexiteers and a fear of facts, 5 secs on google...

BMW less than 10% of their sales are in UK lagging behind China, USA and their home market.

Similar trends followed by both Mercedes and Audi, the whole second biggest market thing is just further bollocks spouted by politicians and gobbled up greedily by the believers. Simple fact is exports to UK have been declining, exports to far east going through the roof, they have more important things than pandering to our colonial fantasies and national nervous breakdown.

FWIW if the blessed German car makers were going to save us do you not think they might have done so already, but no they haven't because they realise that in building their cars they depend upon the EU and a European supply chain: your German car probably has a Polish engine, a Spanish body, Italian seats and other components from Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania. European integration and just-on-time delivery is essential for such companies competition with other car makers.

Therefore despite our arrogance, selling cars to Britain isn’t worth compromising on EU integrity for them.

I hate to break it to you, but the NHS aren't getting £350m a week extra, despite what you were promised.

But Johnson is going to get his time in Court to argue that it is true, and not a lie  :)

Presumably, re the cars, al that will happen is they'll just become more expensive in the UK.  I seem to remember a time when purchasing a car on the continent and then bringing it back, was a thing that some peopole did in order to avoid tariffs.

In Europe then clever bollocks.....

(https://www.volkswagenag.com/presence/investorrelation/images/press_releases/08_audi/audi_europe/2018/Audi_sales_17_E.JPG)

That's not what you said though  ;), still less than 9% of their market, do companies tend to base big and expensive business decisions on a fickle 10%, and declining, part of their customer base....

But the other point remains true, its not remotely worth them buggering up their entire business model and supply chain just to adapt to the UK having an attack of the collywobbles to achieve apparent benefits which no one in the UK can actually appear to quantify.

Likewise on a larger German scale (As with the vast majority of EU members) they are bordered by loads of countries to upset free movement of goods and introduce various and diverse border regimes is just creating loads of work for them for very little gain, it isn't going to happen.

It also shows that only one country had declining sales from 2016 into 2017.  I wonder what happened in 2016 to cause that  :hmmm:

In terms of "No deal" planning, I see Audi AG's sales to the UK are FALLING but are more than compensated for within the EU by rising sales to France, Spain, Italy etc and beyond the EU by increases to the USA and (Massively) to CHINA.

The German car argument has been proved to be yet more Brexiter "Project Fear" about the EU.

Your own figures demonstrate that the declining UK market share for Audi AG is being totally eclipsed by increased sales elsewhere: both in the EU and especially in the Far East.  

Call it "Global EU", if you like.

;)

Declining car sales in the UK have been caused by the demonisation of Diesel as a fuel, and car makers have been playing catch up to introduce supposedly cleaner alternatives.

This

That may be so. But whatever the cause, we are a declining market for German cars, which just further undermines your argument that BMW/Audi etc are going to step in and "save" Brexit

That may be so but it won't be like that forever, it's just a snapshot in time that we're looking at and I don't think that car manufacturers are as short sighted as some on here.

I'm using the car industry as an example, there must be countless other EU industries in a similar situation who "need us as much as we need them".

Although Honda seem to feel differently.

It's easy to pick Honda when in reality the reason they're pulling out of the UK is the EU in their infinite wisdom removed tariffs for imports from Japan, negating the reason for Honda to have a UK base.
This has been compounded by falling demand for the Civic worldwide, which isn't surprising given how ugly it is.

Why not move production to your home nation providing local jobs when the reason for being in the UK is no longer valid?

Yes I know that. I was replying to your suggestion that the UK car market was in a temporary blip from which it would recover. Honda clearly feel differently, if they thought the UK car market was about to (re)blossom, they'd at least have left a token presence here to get round any possibility of tariffs post-Brexit. Whereas in fact they seem to be quite happy to just sell into the EU, the Asian and US markets all of which they see as growing while we are in decline.

It is a temporary blip due to the diesel issue. Honda moving back to Japan is for totally different reasons but that doesn't fit your narrative.

Honda are moving back to Japan for a variety of reasons, among which is that the UK car market is stagnant and not likely to improve. Either way you started this by saying that we'd definitely get a great trade deal with Europe because the German car industry depended on selling to the UK, citing the UK being the second biggest market for them. Except it isn't, it's second in Europe, and declining. Your argument's bust. French cheese exports next? Italian sausages?

Absolute rubbish, Honda are in trouble as they aren't making cars that people want to buy, it's really that simple.
So I made a mistake by saying the UK was the German car industries second biggest market, even if it's only their second biggest European market it's still significant and one they won't want to lose.

Let's all talk down how unimportant the UK market is and we'll be beaten before we've begun!!

Do you remember some of the claims made before the initial Brexit vote;


Claim: A vote to leave ‘would cause an immediate and profound economic shock’ which would ‘push the UK into recession’. Treasury analysis claimed the economy would ‘fall into recession, with four quarters of negative growth’.

Reality: False. The UK’s economic growth has remained positive for every quarter since the referendum, with Britain finishing the year as one of the fastest growing economies in the G7.

Claim: Unemployment ‘would increase by around 500,000’ in the wake of a Brexit vote.

Reality: False. Britain’s employment rate has risen since the referendum. In the three months to January, unemployment fell to 4.7 per cent – the best rate since 1975.

Claim: A Brexit vote ‘would immediately lead to an increase in the premium for lending to UK businesses and households’.

Reality: False. The Bank of England responded to the referendum result by cutting interest rates to a historic low of 0.25 per cent, where they have remained.

etc etc etc

Claim: Doing a deal with the EU "would be the easiest trade deal in history"
Reality: False

Claim: Brexit would lead to £350m per week being put into the NHS
Reality: False

Claim: Turkey is about to join the EU and staying in would open up our borders to 77m Turks
Reality: False
(And as a bonus point Boris Johnson then later lied about saying he had not spoken about Turkey during the campaign when denying he had helped stoke nationalist anti-immigrant sentiment - he was called out as being demonstrably false by pretty much every national newspaper)

Claim: Getting out of the EU will be quick and easy as the UK holds most of the cards (actually John Redwood but pretty much summarises Lorenzo's past two pages)
Reality: Palpably false

Claim: We're not really interested in a transition deal, but we'll consider one to be kind to the EU
Reality: False

Claim: Within two years, before the negotiations with the EU are complete, we will have negotiated a new free trade area massively larger than the EU
Reality: We have a deal with Lichenstein

etc etc etc

Another brexit bonus for the UK car industry

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48451024

No Car manufacturer wants to lose any business anywhere.  But your figures show the whole of the UK market for Audi AG to be 2.5 times LESS than Group's increase in worldwide sales for 2017 alone.  The peacock puff given to the impact of falling German car sales in the UK has already proven false in practice, obviously, and continuing now with that line is beating a dead horse.

The falling pound (correctly predicted) has tended to make German car imports more expensive in the UK.  

Specifically Brexit, you may have noted that factory shutdowns in the UK, designed to cope with disruption on 29 March, slashed car production in April with home and overseas markets falling by 43.7% and 44.7% respectively.

Should we give more weight to "fuck business" Boris Johnson or to the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders ("SMMT")?

"Prolonged instability has done untold damage, with the fear of 'no deal' holding back progress, causing investment to stall, jobs to be lost and undermining our global reputation......a no-deal Brexit would make the declines worse with the threat of border delays, production stoppages and additional costs".

Threatening to try and damage a larger economy, even at the greater expense of one's own, is certainly, well, er, novel.  We are talking trade negotiations not the re-enactment of WW2.

If you had any real grasp of the car industry you'd understand that diesel is the single biggest issue affecting the UK car market.
Look at Jaguar/Landrover most of the models they sell are diesel and they are now only just catching up by introducing hybrid models. They are also losing out due to a massive drop in sales in Asia, is that caused by Brexit?

Nope, by UK government policy change after years of promoting diesel.  Bloody EU.

See, we can both spout shite, you do seem better at it than most, however it doesn't make either of us right or wrong!

Quite a mixed bag on the economy, not exactly thriving since the Brexit vote compared to other G7 members:

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2019/03/22/uk-economy-since-the-brexit-vote-slower-gdp-growth-lower-productivity-and-a-weaker-pound/

So why is this decline only affecting UK sales, have we suddenly become more environmentally aware than the rest of the world, must have missed that?

Go on then name some backed up with evidence to support your position?

Plus you have decided to avoid answering the wider issue of the extent to which fucking up the EU just to keep some arrogant British people living in the 1920's  happy would be good forf EU industries which depend on open borders etc?

My ignorance forces me to listen to everyone.  I give more weight to people who do have a "grasp" rather than (sometimes unaccountable) politicians trying to climb the greasy pole. 

Motor manufacturers have overwhelmingly been in favour of just in time and an ability to plan and invest.  They have been against delays in reaching a deal (which Brexitists once told us would be easy) and against threats of "no deal". 

So diesel, yes, a big factor, especially in the UK but global market conditions and tarrif wars, the switch to electric vehicles, smart cars and silicon valley v motor manufacturers and the need for multinational alliances and therefore governance, eg How might a possible Peugeot : Fiat-Chrysler merger impact upon Nissan? 

But also, Brexit and no deal too, if you choose to listen to the trade rather than the Politicians.  If you have any specifics about how a "no deal" might help motor manufacturing, I'll certainly listen.

What bemuses me is the immaturity of threats to damage German car sales in the UK via a "no deal".  The mutual destruction argument.  It's the language of the jihadi.  I just don't get how that kind of threat might impress anyone outside a believers' bubble?

'Cos we used to have an empire and won the war alone innit!

How were the people signing the petition verified to be eligible, unique and not Russian?

and fings were much better in 1945 innit. Spitfires and building things and stuff.

And spam, tins and tins of spam. Bet SRK sits in his UJ boxers eating tins of spam with a fork (that’s been made in GB of course) on a regular basis!

Nah, that's Legends Lounge. We've already established SRK is a Russian bot, so he emits spam, it's the likes of Legends Lounge that swallows it whole :)

 
 :diespam:

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The petition was managed by the Government website, which requires all signatories to click on a verification link to confirm their email address and eligibility.  The idea - put about by Farage et al that Russians were probably signing it is laughable, since the Russian interest is in seeing us out of the EU, not rescinding Article 50.

Or maybe he takes his UJ boxers to the heart of the EU to make his protest known, rather than sitting behind his keyboard & being brainwashed by dangerous anti-democratic influences in this country

As someone who works in currency trading I can tell you, you are spot on, the man is a fraudster politically as he is only interested in ways to manipulate the electorate to his financial trading gain. It is well documented he influenced the markets to his gain on the day the referendum result came out by lying to the press in regards to the result, this spiked the market giving him the opportunity to short the pound. Rees-Mogg has a hedge fund, you can bet all you like that he is benefitting from the current impass.

Plus of course they want out of the EU so their offshore assets are protected, it is no coincidence that in the years that the EU started going after those avoiding to pay tax by demanding transparency in offshore tax havens that a populist rightsided party pops up to try and get out of EU.

We have all been lied to people, if we leave a few people will benefit a great deal and the many well lets just say, the few don't care too much about the many.