Thetownend.com

Swindon Town FC => Players => Topic started by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 07:55:46



Title: Goals
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 07:55:46
Apart from Doughty’s nod in in the first game of the season we haven’t score with a header since. And, IIRC, we didn’t score many headers last season either.

I don’t know what the average % is of headed goals for a team but we must be way off. Lack of headed goals from CBs at corners as well as during general play is one reason for our scoring struggles.

Mind you, our corner taking is atrocious. Do we practice?


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 08:01:30
Crosses from open play have been very poor as well.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 08:26:00
Mind you, our corner taking is atrocious. Do we practice?

It would appear not.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 08:31:21
Apart from Doughty’s nod in in the first game of the season we haven’t score with a header since. And, IIRC, we didn’t score many headers last season either.

I don’t know what the average % is of headed goals for a team but we must be way off. Lack of headed goals from CBs at corners as well as during general play is one reason for our scoring struggles.

Mind you, our corner taking is atrocious. Do we practice?

Doing retro stats on something like headed goals is difficult, and time consuming, unless you're a club data analyst. I guess we have one  :hmmm: 

So for example Don Rogers scored either 3 or 4 headed goals in the 180 he scored for Town in all comps. Someone might know.... or you could trawl, the Pinks on the Ref microfilm.  Getting Harry Morris's  ratio even more difficult.

My gut instinct is the number has been low recently, which may be because of coaching.  I base this on nothing more scientific than I can only remember Michael Smith scoring one header in his 25 or so, over 2 seasons, and he was a big lad up front.

It seemed that the coach, Luke, emphasised crosses must be hard and low, to be swept into the net.  As for corners, we've been terrible for some time.... Luke era was so bad a Town corner actually came to be a goalscoring opportunity for the opposition. That's why they fanny about with short routines, try and keep possession as a defensive measure.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 08:36:27
Knoyle is our best crosser of the ball IMO and he has been missing for 3 games without him Woolf did not take his man on once, hes definately a centre back.

Taylor should be the best crosser of the ball probably in this division but all too often he crosses from very deep and it never beats the first defender, he looks more dangerous when hes gone past his man but he does that all too rarely now.

As FH says out general standard of crossing is really poor this season, and most of last too.

We have height and strength in the box and Richards loves attacking crosses but he rarely gets a chance as the crosses are so poor.

McGlashan also isn't really your standard L2 winger, he doesn't beat his man and get to the byeline and cross the ball, he prefers to run at defenders diagonally and tries to win penalties/fouls with his pace as when he gets into a good position he more often than not puts in a poor cross/pass/shot and can be fucking frustrating.

And as stated above our corners this season have been appallingly bad.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 08:56:32
Against Oldham I noticed our crosses/corners were particularly bad, despite getting into some good positions next wide. The next game we seemed to try to play it through the middle more. We turned out to be just as inept at that as well. I wonder if Brown switched to playing through the middle because of the awful quality of our deliveries into the box.

I don't understand how the quality of our crosses can be as bad as they are. They don't need to be premierships quality where they hang perfectly for somebody to get their head on it. Just putting it in the right sort of area will be a vast improvement, we're barely managing that though. They tend to either fail to beat the first man or go over everybody and out for a throw on the other side of the pitch. It's baffling. These are professional footballers, I don't get it.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 08:56:53
Quote from: Sir red ken
Mind you, our corner taking is atrocious. Do we practice?

It would appear not.


if we do it's worrying!

drills:
 - hit first man
 - hit biggest centre back

I remember looking dangerous from set pieces last year, certainly early on anyway


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 09:02:59
Against Oldham I noticed our crosses/corners were particularly bad, despite getting into some good positions next wide. The next game we seemed to try to play it through the middle more. We turned out to be just as inept at that as well. I wonder if Brown switched to playing through the middle because of the awful quality of our deliveries into the box.

I don't understand how the quality of our crosses can be as bad as they are. They don't need to be premierships quality where they hang perfectly for somebody to get their head on it. Just putting it in the right sort of area will be a vast improvement, we're barely managing that though. They tend to either fail to beat the first man or go over everybody and out for a throw on the other side of the pitch. It's baffling. These are professional footballers, I don't get it.

These are 4th division footballers... if they were better at what they do they'd be playing higher up. Sometimes they'll get it right, but more often than not won't.  I think it is why coaches empahsise hitting crosses along the ground.... if it's aerial it has to be very accurate, if on the ground less so, the mythical good area.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 09:06:05

if we do it's worrying!

drills:
 - hit first man
 - hit biggest centre back

I remember looking dangerous from set pieces last year, certainly early on anyway
Yeah we hardly ever beat the nearest defender with corners, or its looped to the back post and easily headed out.

Last season we did the little "4 men in a row" going in all directions when attacking the corner routine, which seemed to work quite well.

I would like to see that with Nelson throwing his head in the mix, I think he could be almost as good as Shaun Taylor as an attacking force with what with his bravery in our box, now he needs to move it the the other box for corners.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 09:46:30
These are 4th division footballers... if they were better at what they do they'd be playing higher up. Sometimes they'll get it right, but more often than not won't.  I think it is why coaches empahsise hitting crosses along the ground.... if it's aerial it has to be very accurate, if on the ground less so, the mythical good area.
It’s interesting what differentiates a PL player from a run of the mill clogger in L2. Sure, technical ability is higher but that shouldn’t be a reason for poor corner taking - that’s a basic.

Taylor may be getting on when it comes to getting up and down the pitch, but that shouldn’t impinge on his crossing ability. It’s noticeably poorer than last season. He is taking fewer corners though, probably to stop him being out of position when said corner inevitably breaks down into an opposition attack.

I’m really struggling to get my head round why what appears to be a fairly decent squad looks so bumbling lately.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 09:53:00
Funny how other L2 players seem able to cross the ball into reasonable areas... I do wish people would not quote Reg's nonsense.

I could put in decent-ish balls more often than this lot have been lately and I'm fucking useless. It should be bread and butter for these guys, especially when the ball is stationary. Even the straightforward, along the ground passes to unmarked players have been wayward. It's bizarre.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 10:10:26
... and the same group looked so good against Yeovil.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: singingiiiffy on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 10:13:25
Crewe were brilliant on corners and freekicks. proper whipped in with pace- really hard to defend against.

to say its league 2 ability and thats why all corners are poor is not true. its lack of application by the individual taking it. some players can some players can't. at all levels. think harry kane in the euros!


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 10:23:00
Funny how other L2 players seem able to cross the ball into reasonable areas... I do wish people would not quote Reg's nonsense.

I could put in decent-ish balls more often than this lot have been lately, and I'm fucking useless. Especially when the ball is stationary. It should be bread and butter for these guys. Even the straightforward along the ground passes to unmarked players have been wayward. It's bizarre.

No you couldn't. 

They don't perform at a considerably more significant rate than our lot, which is why there isn't much to choose between sides.  The highest scoring side in the Div, ColU have Luke Norris up front, maybe they've someone better than what we had over the last couple of seasons, so Luke can thrive. It is possible.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 10:28:51
Crewe were brilliant on corners and freekicks. proper whipped in with pace- really hard to defend against.

to say its league 2 ability and thats why all corners are poor is not true. its lack of application by the individual taking it. some players can some players can't. at all levels. think harry kane in the euros!

Crewe have scored 1 goal on the road this season.... if so brilliant at set plays how do explain that?  Further they've scored 10 at home but 6 in the opener, meaning they've scored 5 goals collectively in the next 10 games, hardly the stuff of set play expertise.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Panda Paws on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 10:29:47
Set pieces are obviously important, but actually, across football, a lower % than you imagine are scored from crosses. Teams are much better off coming out again and working an actual chance.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 10:34:04
Set pieces are obviously important, but actually, across football, a lower % than you imagine are scored from crosses. Teams are much better off coming out again and working an actual chance.

I've no doubt that you're right, but that doesn't excuse the awful quality of balls going in.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 10:34:15
 Here's an interesting arrticle about corners.....

 https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/mar/27/in-defence-of-the-corner-a-much-maligned-set-piece


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Kinky Tom on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 11:42:19
I've been making that point for years, I couldn't tell you whether I've said it on here or not though.

You only just beat that first man and it's about as dangerous as it gets but chances are you'll hit him.  One of the biggest football cliché misnomers in my opinion.

Piece of piss to beat the first man obviously if that is your remit but a far less threatening delivery to just lob it in there.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 11:45:59
Here's an interesting arrticle about corners.....

 https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/mar/27/in-defence-of-the-corner-a-much-maligned-set-piece
The article is from the Guardian, so its fake news like everything else in that Evil communist rag.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 11:58:31
The article is from the Guardian, so its fake news like everything else in that Evil communist rag.

The mantra of the 2010s: 'This media outlet fails to repeat my own personal views back to me.  So it's fake.'

Don Rogers was a left winger.  You shouldn't forget that.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 12:00:44
Here's an interesting arrticle about corners.....

 https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/mar/27/in-defence-of-the-corner-a-much-maligned-set-piece
Some very good points there. The one thing not mentioned, though, is the lack (Sid Nelson notwithstanding) for many of today’s players to be wary of an accumulation of headers to their well-being.

As so many of ours seem to go way over everyone and out of play, is there a chance for a player to be stationed well to the left/right of the far post.

Crewe’s goal came from a fairly simple short corner - not one just tossed in.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 12:11:55
Which still does not excuse the poor quality of our deliveries.

Corners aside, since Oldham I think we've switched more to trying to keep it down than put in crosses. We just seem to be struggling with that as well, though.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 12:31:14
We’re fairly adept at conceding from corners, though. (Although I can only think of 2 this season)


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 13:51:37
Some very good points there. The one thing not mentioned, though, is the lack (Sid Nelson notwithstanding) for many of today’s players to be wary of an accumulation of headers to their well-being.

As so many of ours seem to go way over everyone and out of play, is there a chance for a player to be stationed well to the left/right of the far post.

Crewe’s goal came from a fairly simple short corner - not one just tossed in.

It's entirely possible that heading is being phased out to an extent by safety concerns.... Sid for all his bravery has scored 1 goal in 70 odd appearances.

Th egoalscoring centre half still exists, most are good for a couple a season, but sometimes you do get a weapon like a Sergio Ramos, or for us OST. Flint and Morrison weren't bad either.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 14:04:54
 A game which still gives me nightmares was away at Whaddon Road in 08.  We were dominant had 20 corners, they were down to 10 and we still lost. 2-0.

 In that side you had J-PM and Wee Macca, who could deliver a decent ball.... Sean Morrison to aim at and Barn Door Billy and Coxy who could both sniff a knockdown.  :(


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: swindonmaniac on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 17:31:32
The main reason for lack of goals is lack of goal scorers.  Forget the build up,  the crosses, the corners, without a player that can put the ball in the back of the net build ups are irrelevant.
Back to the old subject again,  Nile Ranger is still available,  we need a recognised strker, if he isn't one then my pricks a bloater, wether or not PB could control him that's another thing,  although he had a go at Southend.    Well worth another chance,  at 27, he's not going to get many more chances.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Kinky Tom on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 09:23:24
Ranger isn't a goal scorer though, he's more like Giroud.  19 goals in 141 league apperances.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 09:30:12
Ranger isn't a goal scorer though, he's more like Giroud.  19 goals in 141 league apperances.
He has also been sacked by Swindon AND Brown when he was at Southend, hes too much trouble off the pitch hence why he still has no club.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Abrahammer on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 09:44:57
Ranger isn't a goal scorer though, he's more like Giroud.  19 goals in 141 league apperances.

Just to be picky, Giroud has an excellent goal scoring record in his career, Chelsea aside.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 09:48:23
It’s interesting what differentiates a PL player from a run of the mill clogger in L2. Sure, technical ability is higher but that shouldn’t be a reason for poor corner taking - that’s a basic.


Usually consistency, I used to watch a fair bit of northern league football at Lancaster City and they had a couple of players that in short bursts could be the equally the quality of PL players, sadly it was around 10 minutes bi-monthly.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Kinky Tom on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 09:48:28
Well yes, I mean the 2018 edition of Giroud who Hazzard has described as the best target man in world football.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 09:52:22
The main reason for lack of goals is lack of goal scorers. 

Richards has something like 180 league goals.... not sure what the FL currently playing career list looks like but I'd guess he might be top ten.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: Kinky Tom on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 09:53:59
Highest goal scorer in L2 history.


Title: Re: Goals
Post by: A Gent Orange on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 21:47:37
Back towards corners - good corners need delivery, practice and variety

At the moment it looks more like Brown has worried about fixing the defending/shape side first. Perhaps 15 minutes can be found per session once he’s fixed the lack of chance creation/shots.

England in the World Cup worked really well because a new set of routines only had to be used across a handful of games - no chance for the opposition to plan  if it is only ever used once or twice. Put that into a league season and opposition scouts will have seen pretty much all of them by late August.

So more practice then? 

I’d agree with the article on structural changes  - how many times would a foul have been given against Shaun Taylor with an obstructing player put in to stop his run these days? Especially against a keeper. Certainly zonal and mixed marking systems have put bigger and better headers in better positions close to the near post. Most teams (not Brown though) put one of their top few headers there. We used to use Ranger and Obika.

Coaches do still obsess on corners though - just less PMO merchants and more hipster number guys  https://statsbomb.com/2017/02/changing-how-the-world-thinks-about-set-pieces/