Thetownend.com

Swindon Town FC => The Boardroom => Topic started by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 18:17:41



Title: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 18:17:41
Well the transfer window has shut (apart from freebies) so how do we all think we are shaping up?

I personally am enjoying games again after many years of not looking forward to watching us (probably since the last Wembley visit).

I have the buzz again (yes I should see a doctor I know!) which has been missing for a long time, I am quite enjoying the football under PB, he has made us harder to beat, we have competitive options in every position except for LB.

We are at times playing some great passing and running football as good as any we have seen in years, mixed with some long balls too to mix it up a bit.

We are getting a lot of late goals and never seem to give up, even a couple of goals down (except for Lincoln away who bullied us).

I am optimistic for a decent season even though it is still early, the signs are there of making genuine progress on the pitch.

I was looking at the start made this season under PB compared with the Championship winning sides in this division under PdC and Macari, also added Flipflop last season by way of comparison.

PB - W3 D3 L1 GF12 GA12 - 12 points - 7th place
h 3-2 w
a 1-4 l
h 3-2 w
a 2-2 d
a 1-1 d
h 1-1 d
a 1-0 w

PdC - W3 D0 L4 GF10 GA8 - 9 points - 13th place
h 3-0 w
a 0-1 l
a 0-1 l
h 1-2 l
a 1-2 l
h 3-2 w
h 2-0 w

Macari - W2 D1 L4 F6 A13 - 7 points - 20th place
h 0-1 l
a 1-4 l
h 2-1 w
a 0-0 d
h 3-2 w
a 0-3 l
a 0-2 l

Flipflop - W3 D1 L3 F8 A10 - 10 points 14th place
a 2-1 w
h 1-1 d
a 1-0 w
h 0-3 l
h 1-4 l
a 3-0 w
a 0-1 l

A fairly solid start and long may it continue.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: @mwooly63 on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 19:09:52
Agree with the better football this season, and probably most enjoyable since Wembley.

Was about this stage we went on a winning streak under Macari after that poor start so anything that mirrors that is more than acceptable.

Current squad shows some really good play at times, if we can get a settled 11 without suspensions we just might be surprised.
Look forward to going at the moment and long may that continue  :pint:


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 19:19:04
I look at our fixtures and think we should be winning all of them! Still reckon we’ll be top come October.

Nelson and Wolfie look so much more solid - bit worried about Conroy fully recovering his pre injury form atm.

Finally get Dave fit and firing, get Woolery up front with Adebayo and we’re looking well set.

Great start. Kudos to Brown and the players.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 19:22:58
Interesting that penalties and Red cards have played a big part in our season so far!

The 2 reds at Crawley cost us 2 points but the Tranmere red probably gained us 3.

From what I have seen it’s been quite enjoyable and the effort is certainly there. Cut out the stupid challenges and I think we’ll be there or thereabouts come the season’s end. Glad PB has sorted out the defence, Nelson and Wolf seem to be ideal for league 2 and we have goals throughout the team. And we still have Woolery to come into the side, I wonder how PB will utilise him?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 19:36:15
I seem to remember last season, about two games in taking a stab and saying we looked good for play offs.  I still think we probably should have made them, but we had a couple of really bad wobbles and Flitcroft vanished up his own tactical genius arse at times.

I am not a fan of Brown, so remain cautious this season, despite potentially better signs.  Again, I think we'll make the play offs, based on what I have seen so far.  We are not amazing, there are obvious weaknesses, but, on the flip side, very little of what we have played has offered any reason why we shouldn't still make the play offs.  Lincoln were the only team who I'd be confident of finishing above us, with Franchise being the other team who I think will get to the Play Offs simply because they look tough to beat.

The midfield and Adebayo are stand outs for me, better than this league.  Keeper seems to have sorted itself.  Will be interesting to see how Richards goes for another full season at his age, and whether Woollery can fit in.  The defence shows signs of improving, the worry si Lancashire seems to have a broken body, Conroy might struggle to stay fit and Taylor may be playing his last season as a pro.

Reg will probably say something about the evidence suggesting we'll be fighting for our league survival by December, but the basic stats suggest Play Offs as well.  If all we did all season is repeat the results of the first 7 games, then play offs would be our home.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 19:38:37
 Still too early to make a judgement....  during the pre season, the problems at the back and up top were highlighted, and as anticipated they've been solved with some loan kids.

 It's asking an awful lot for these lads essentially here for experience to carry the burden of getting us back to Div 3.  It may be that they'll get recalled in Jan, leaving us back to square 1.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 19:48:39
Woolfenden is the only loanee likely to be recalled by the parent club for any reason other than injury or us treating them badly.

Most of our key players are just that, our players.

Nelson, Alzate & Adebayo are not close enough to their first teams currently, the latter two highly unlikely of being recalled to play.

In the event any of them did return in January, evidence suggests we'd replace them, especially if we are in the hunt, which the data suggests we probably will be.

One of our best teams in the past 30 years was riddled with loanees.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 20:18:47
I've enjoyed the games and its certainly been very entertaining.

I'm still none the wiser as to where we'll finish though. It feels a better squad than I thought, then again we have seen some weaknesses too. Gut feel? Early on I thought 12th or lower, but I think we have a shot at the playoffs. I do still think the autos are beyond us though.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 20:37:47
Woolfenden is the only loanee likely to be recalled by the parent club for any reason other than injury or us treating them badly.

Most of our key players are just that, our players.

Nelson, Alzate & Adebayo are not close enough to their first teams currently, the latter two highly unlikely of being recalled to play.

In the event any of them did return in January, evidence suggests we'd replace them, especially if we are in the hunt, which the data suggests we probably will be.

One of our best teams in the past 30 years was riddled with loanees.

Loan recalls can happen for a number of reasons.... think Doughty and Furlong, yes they were sort of replaced but not by what we needed. I assume you mean the Cooper side?   Yes had a load of loan players.... failed to get us up.  Presumably that is what you think we are trying to do?

For me... relying on loan kids in key positions isn't a particularly reliable template for getting promoted.  OK it's possible that we may be able to cover the centre halves to some extent, depending on Lancashire and Conroy's fitness, but we haven't really got cover for Elijah....


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: ferret on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 21:04:25
Loan recalls can happen for a number of reasons.... think Doughty and Furlong, yes they were sort of replaced but not by what we needed. I assume you mean the Cooper side?   Yes had a load of loan players.... failed to get us up.  Presumably that is what you think we are trying to do?

For me... relying on loan kids in key positions isn't a particularly reliable template for getting promoted.  OK it's possible that we may be able to cover the centre halves to some extent, depending on Lancashire and Conroy's fitness, but we haven't really got cover for Elijah....

You can be dismissive about just about any category of players. ‘loan kids’, ‘lower league journeymen’, ‘old timers’ etc etc... call each of them what you like.

If there is a ‘particularly reliable template for getting promoted’, with the possible exception of throwing wads of cash around, I’m not aware of it.

Correct, we didn’t get promoted in 2015. But we finished 4th in a higher division. Further to which, that team was an extremely young one, which may have been detrimental in the presssure of the playoffs. This one, in addition to a smattering of ‘loan kids’ contained 3 x 35+ year olds on Saturday, and therefore appears to have a more sensible balance.

Woolery should soon be fit, and will offer ‘cover for Elijah’.

If you really think that the team will fail, have the balls to say so, rather than cowering behind the ‘too early to comment’ excuse. I think that we’ve improved significantly since the early games, most notably at the back (gone from conceding 8 in the first 3 to 1 in the last 3), and I think we are set for a serious promotion push.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 21:14:14
You can be dismissive about just about any category of players. ‘loan kids’, ‘lower league journeymen’, ‘old timers’ etc etc... call each of them what you like.

If there is a ‘particularly reliable template for getting promoted’, with the possible exception of throwing wads of cash around, I’m not aware of it.

Correct, we didn’t get promoted in 2015. But we finished 4th in a higher division. Further to which, that team was an extremely young one, which may have been detrimental in the presssure of the playoffs. This one, in addition to a smattering of ‘loan kids’ contained 3 x 35+ year olds on Saturday, and therefore appears to have a more sensible balance.

Woolery should soon be fit, and will offer ‘cover for Elijah’.

If you really think that the team will fail, have the balls to say so, rather than cowering behind the ‘too early to comment’ excuse. I think that we’ve improved significantly since the early games, most notably at the back (gone from conceding 8 in the first 3 to 1 in the last 3), and I think we are set for a serious promotion push.

He’s probably picking the splinters out of his arse from sitting on the fence so often as opposed to sitting in the bench but will get round to answering you when he has carefully disected all of his previous and other posts pertaining to yours to carefully craft a nondescript reply bring you back to square one.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 21:20:22
Without actually knowing, I’d imagine every club in L2 has a smattering of young loan players - the same as us.

We have great strength in depth in midfield. If Conroy gets up to speed we now seem OK for CB. Up front is the only worry if (when) Adebayo gets injured.

Keepers are ridiculously good for this level.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: ferret on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 21:35:06
Without actually knowing, I’d imagine every club in L2 has a smattering of young loan players - the same as us.


This is another good point.

In 11/12 we were leaking goals. Conceding 3 at home to Hereford was the final straw, so di Canio, despite probably having money on tap, loaned in a ‘young kid’ without a first team appearance to his name.

In his opening 19 home league games, Wes conceded a total of 1 goal.

Using the loan market is hardly a recipe for failure. It’s common sense.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 21:38:23
Without actually knowing, I’d imagine every club in L2 has a smattering of young loan players - the same as us.

We have great strength in depth in midfield. If Conroy gets up to speed we now seem OK for CB. Up front is the only worry if (when) Adebayo gets injured.

Keepers are ridiculously good for this level.

It's likely but there are many risks involved....

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2018/sep/06/football-league-loan-deals

I would say that ideally you want the core/spine of the side to be your own players and then the loans to add a bit of froth on the top, or plug an obvious gap, probably at full back or wing.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 21:45:32
This is another good point.

In 11/12 we were leaking goals. Conceding 3 at home to Hereford was the final straw, so di Canio, despite probably having money on tap, loaned in a ‘young kid’ without a first team appearance to his name.

In his opening 19 home league games, Wes conceded a total of 1 goal.

Using the loan market is hardly a recipe for failure. It’s common sense.

But PdC then used the  money to give Wes a 2 and a half year deal and Palace an undisclosed fee, after the 3 month loan deal expired.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 21:49:44
Like others, I am enjoying the football after years of pointless and risky keepball and last year's anti-football where the objective seemed to be to kick the ball as far and as high as possible.  In fact I had feared the clean sheet mentality Brown had trailed last year might not be all that watchable.  You certainly couldn't blame Brown for failing to deliver clean sheets with last year's comedy caper Keepers.   Now we have two "first choice" keepers in Vigs and McCormick, an abundance of combinations to set up in midfield and Adebayo rather than Norris up front.  Really, what is not to like?  

 :hmmm: Well just possibly the defence which doesn't reassure in terms of depth and where the experience available doesn't really adequately complement the youthful promise.  That doesn't shout "automatic" at me for sure but Nelson and Woolfenden are decent young additions and Taylor on the fringes is certainly a motivator.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 21:49:53
Core/Spine - You mean like having Adebayo on the bench recently, or Woolfenden having only started 1 league game, or Alzate being swapped out at times?  Didn't you also suggest he was probably not going to be much of a force for us anyway, given he'd got Leyton Orient relegated several divisions in one month or something like that?  They are either important, or not important, not sure which you think.

The question is how are we shaping up, and using previous years as a comparison, one of which is last year.  Evidence, in the form of data, is so far suggesting quite well.

Yes, I think a season similar to the Cooper one would be good.  I'd hope we could surpass the conclusion, but I am not sure.  On what I have seen so far, not making the play offs would be a failure, and yes, Brown should be concerned about his job if that did come to pass.  The available evidence suggests otherwise, so far.  We are in good form, we have got some tough results, we have improved in some areas of weakness, we are not the best club in the division, we have some weaknesses that could still hamper us and we might have to replace some loans if the worst happens, but we probably would do that based on previous transfer windows.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: ferret on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 21:51:44
But PdC then used the  money to give Wes a 2 and a half year deal and Palace an undisclosed fee, after the 3 month loan deal expired.

That doesn’t change the point that signing a ‘young kid’ on loan, and having faith in him, was a very successful move. If we hadn’t done so, we would never have signed him permanently.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 22:07:24
Core/Spine - You mean like having Adebayo on the bench recently, or Woolfenden having only started 1 league game, or Alzate being swapped out at times?  Didn't you also suggest he was probably not going to be much of a force for us anyway, given he'd got Leyton Orient relegated several divisions in one month or something like that?  They are either important, or not important, not sure which you think.

The question is how are we shaping up, and using previous years as a comparison, one of which is last year.  Evidence, in the form of data, is so far suggesting quite well.

Yes, I think a season similar to the Cooper one would be good.  I'd hope we could surpass the conclusion, but I am not sure.  On what I have seen so far, not making the play offs would be a failure, and yes, Brown should be concerned about his job if that did come to pass.  The available evidence suggests otherwise, so far.  We are in good form, we have got some tough results, we have improved in some areas of weakness, we are not the best club in the division, we have some weaknesses that could still hamper us and we might have to replace some loans if the worst happens, but we probably would do that based on previous transfer windows.

What I said about Alzate is he is a talent, but now needs to work on the application of that talent.  This is a difficult job in his position, you only need to see how the England side can't find a quality playmaker. However it's not the midfield which could be a problem.

You and others may be happy with loan kids in key positions and it is what it is, but I'd have rather seen some experience in there.  I've pointed out that it was to be expected that PB would get in a couple of loan kids, as he waited to see how Lancashire and Conroy would rock up, but had hoped we might get another target man type.





Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 22:17:39
That doesn’t change the point that signing a ‘young kid’ on loan, and having faith in him, was a very successful move. If we hadn’t done so, we would never have signed him permanently.

Of course, judicious use of the loan system can be advantageous.  For instance Lou Macari after a dodgy start 85/86 needed a LB, and so got in Nicky Coleman from Millwall, he took a good pen.  Lou tried to sign him to no avail, but he was our only loan that record Div 4 season.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: ferret on Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 22:37:21
Of course, judicious use of the loan system can be advantageous.  For instance Lou Macari after a dodgy start 85/86 needed a LB, and so got in Nicky Coleman from Millwall, he took a good pen.  Lou tried to sign him to no avail, but he was our only loan that record Div 4 season.

You don’t need me to tell you that times have changed somewhat over the last 33 years. For parts of the 80s, clubs were only allowed to loan keepers.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: bamboonoshop on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 00:16:06
I was looking at the start made this season under PB compared with the Championship winning sides in this division under PdC and Macari, also added Flitcroft last season by way of comparison.

PB - W3 D3 L1 GF12 GA12 - 12 points - 7th place
h 3-2 w
a 1-4 l
h 3-2 w
a 2-2 d
a 1-1 d
h 1-1 d
a 1-0 w

PdC - W3 D0 L4 GF10 GA8 - 9 points - 13th place
h 3-0 w
a 0-1 l
a 0-1 l
h 1-2 l
a 1-2 l
h 3-2 w
h 2-0 w

Macari - W2 D1 L4 F6 A13 - 7 points - 20th place
h 0-1 l
a 1-4 l
h 2-1 w
a 0-0 d
h 3-2 w
a 0-3 l
a 0-2 l

Flitcroft - W3 D1 L3 F8 A10 - 10 points 14th place
a 2-1 w
h 1-1 d
a 1-0 w
h 0-3 l
h 1-4 l
a 3-0 w
a 0-1 l

A fairly solid start and long may it continue.

What stands out there for me and it may just be coincidence but the difference between the League winning/Promoted seasons and the DF season is strikingly obvious...Home form. Even on the Macari and PdC most their points in those early games came from Home tie wins.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 08:29:25
Not been to a game in over 5 years now, so not sure how valid my opinion will be...

Better squad in my opinion. We’ve had various injuries and suspensions already but at no point has players going out / coming in effected the quality of our starting XI.

Almost like England over the summer there has been a clear shift in attitude towards a more determined, gutsy attitude with increased application.

The keeper situation is so much better. A position so underrated in how important it is.
Defence still looks a bit shakey but the two loans have showed promise.
Midfield looks decent
Think Adebayo is a talent and will get us 15 goals. Not sure about our depth up top. Not sure Richards will still be up to it. Despite signing a year ago I still don’t feel we know much / enough about Woolrey. Stealing a ‘soundbite’ but he could be like a new signing.

Think it’ll be a top 8 finish.



Also, to an extent I see Regs point about having loan players being key members of the squad as it’s only a short term fix (unless we actually sign them)
I’d much rather have our own players so we don’t have to continually fill gaps.

However, now a days with almost all footballers on a 1 or 2 year deals the days of ‘keeping a squad together’ is an archaic, redundant concept.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Quagmire on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 08:42:51
When will you come back DV?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 08:50:07
When will you come back DV?

Depending on circumstances one of the 4 below options

1. Never
2. When we show a bit of ambition*
3. When I’m mega rich and buy the club
4. If my son wants to go


* don’t want to derail the thread but will touch upon option 2.
Won’t say much about Power (and in truth I don’t have much to say about him anyway) we’ve for various reasons turned into one of those clubs who just make up the numbers. Not good to enough to progress up the leagues, not bad enough to slide down them.
As a football fan I can’t think of anything worse than supporting a middle of the road nothing team. For example Oldham, until last season basically made up the numbers in L1 for about 20 years with one play off finish in 03 (I think) such a boring, pointless existence.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 09:17:48
You don’t need me to tell you that times have changed somewhat over the last 33 years. For parts of the 80s, clubs were only allowed to loan keepers.

Loans started in the early 70's our first being Paull Walker from Wolves he got 2 starts and 3 sub appearances. Right from the off a manager could get in a decent loan or a shit loan, which still holds true today. Over the 45 years of their use, far more have been miss than hit.

You mention PdC and Wes, however he did sign  a further 9..... including some right stumers, Daniel Boateng, Jonathan Tehoue, Ahmed Abdulla, Christian Montano, Ronan Murray.... others like Jake Jervis and Liam Ridehalgh were semi OK, and I think we'd have all been happy to have signed John Bostock and Lee Holmes permanently.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 09:24:09
Excellent view on how we are shaping up, DV

I accept that, in the real world, there are many better ways to spend a Saturday afternoon than at the County Ground.

However, even if we are showing no real ambition as a club, you have noted that there is a more determined, gutsy attitude with increased application. And that there is some talent.

Try coming along.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 09:26:50
Loans started in the early 70's our first being Paull Walker from Wolves he got 2 starts and 3 sub appearances. Right from the off a manager could get in a decent loan or a shit loan, which still holds true today. Over the 45 years of their use, far more have been miss than hit.

You mention PdC and Wes, however he did sign  a further 9..... including some right stumers, Daniel Boateng, Jonathan Tehoue, Ahmed Abdulla, Christian Montano, Ronan Murray.... others like Jake Jervis and Liam Ridehalgh were semi OK, and I think we'd have all been happy to have signed John Bostock and Lee Holmes permanently.
For all the variable quality and frequency of PDC's signings, the three points certainly used to come in on time.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 09:31:35
I thought we were going to try and sign Adebayo on a perm in January a la Anderson.

Be a bit of a coup, that. Sometime down the line he’s going to make big bucks.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 09:31:57
Excellent view on how we are shaping up, DV

I accept that, in the real world, there are many better ways to spend a Saturday afternoon than at the County Ground.

However, even if we are showing no real ambition as a club, you have noted that there is a more determined, gutsy attitude with increased application. And that there is some talent.

Try coming along.


We've always been an essentially Div 3 side, with the occasional decent spell to get up to Div 2, or some sort of cup run to raise the profile.  That goes back to 1920 and the formation of Div 3.  What we want to avoid is getting stuck in Div 4,  or worse.... Power inherited a Div 3 club, and needs to get uis back there asap.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 09:36:13
I thought we were going to try and sign Adebayo on a perm in January a la Anderson.

Be a bit of a coup, that. Sometime down the line he’s going to make big bucks.

It was mentioned.... can't see it. These days a Prem club probably wouldn't even start to talk for less than a mill.

Keshi was a bit different, as he didn't really look much good, just potential, which remains the case. Bayo does look a player.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Tails on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 09:49:10
Excellent view on how we are shaping up, DV

I accept that, in the real world, there are many better ways to spend a Saturday afternoon than at the County Ground.

However, even if we are showing no real ambition as a club, you have noted that there is a more determined, gutsy attitude with increased application. And that there is some talent.

Try coming along.


Its the difference between a customer and a fan I think.

I know we're shit and will always be shit but I've been going long enough that I have an affection that will never fade. It's over an hour drive for me now but I still do most home games. I honestly can't think of many better ways to spend my Saturdays than with my mates watching footy to be honest.

As for shaping up, I think we'll be okay. Got a good chance of going up I feel, but it's too early to really tell.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 09:59:29
Of course, judicious use of the loan system can be advantageous.  For instance Lou Macari after a dodgy start 85/86 needed a LB, and so got in Nicky Coleman from Millwall, he took a good pen.  Lou tried to sign him to no avail, but he was our only loan that record Div 4 season.
We also had Chris Ramsey in the side and Dave Bamber and although they had been signed on perms by Macari both had previously been loan signings the season before.

I agree you can't rely totally on loan players in key positions but when you have talent available then why not use it? like every other club in this division and the one above.

If a good players appears for loan that will improve us then take him, we would be silly to ignore that.

Having a higher reputation than many in this league means we can maybe attracts a better quality loan than say Newport, Crawley, Yeovil or Carlisle.

Yes in an ideal world there would be no loans and all signings would be perm signings but then many young talented footballers would be sat in Premier League U23 sides never bettering themselves only to be released when they hit 24.

I think in Alzate, Nelson, Woolfenden and Adebayo we have 4 players that would walk into any side in this division.

You cannot say that about Flipflops 7 loanees - Hussey (good attcking awful defending), Smith (moments of good many of bad), Gordon (fast and petulant with no end product), Eslnik (started well went to pot when he got an injury), Banks (started well got worse), Anderson (showed promise so was bought), Menayese (good at times nieve at others).

I would take even one Alzate over all those TBH.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 10:03:24
Its the difference between a customer and a fan I think.

I know we're shit and will always be shit but I've been going long enough that I have an affection that will never fade. It's over an hour drive for me now but I still do most home games. I honestly can't think of many better ways to spend my Saturdays than with my mates watching footy to be honest.

As for shaping up, I think we'll be okay. Got a good chance of going up I feel, but it's too early to really tell.

Good man...


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 10:06:44
I think we're still not 'clicking'. There's some very good passages of play but not enough flow overall with attacks often quite not panning out as they could.

The table's still looking decent for us, though. If we do start clicking then we could be in for a very good season.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 10:15:19
We also had Chris Ramsey in the side and Dave Bamber and although they had been signed on perms by Macari both had previously been loan signings the season before.

I agree you can't rely totally on loan players in key positions but when you have talent available then why not use it? like every other club in this division and the one above.

If a good players appears for loan that will improve us then take him, we would be silly to ignore that.

Having a higher reputation than many in this league means we can maybe attracts a better quality loan than say Newport, Crawley, Yeovil or Carlisle.

Yes in an ideal world there would be no loans and all signings would be perm signings but then many young talented footballers would be sat in Premier League U23 sides never bettering themselves only to be released when they hit 24.

I think in Alzate, Nelson, Woolfenden and Adebayo we have 4 players that would walk into any side in this division.

You cannot say that about Flipflops 7 loanees - Hussey (good attcking awful defending), Smith (moments of good many of bad), Gordon (fast and petulant with no end product), Eslnik (started well went to pot when he got an injury), Banks (started well got worse), Anderson (showed promise so was bought), Menayese (good at times nieve at others).

I would take even one Alzate over all those TBH.

Again it's too early to tell... Timi looked a talent, but was ground down by the physicality. We're about 5 weeks into the season, the weather is decent, pitches good.

The aim for Alzate will be to show he has the required physicality and mental application for the slog.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: hefty toe on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 10:19:25
Pretty well.  Only seen us vs Macclesfield, Tranmere and Franchise.  Sounds like Woolfenden has improved our defence.  I think we'll make the play-offs barring injuries.  On paper Lincoln, Franchise, Mansfield, Forest Green, Exeter and Notts County might have stronger first XIs/squads.  Hopefully Toumani will live up to his reputation.  The big plus is that it's so much more enjoyable than last season.  Brown has done well with the signings.  Watching players like Alzate, Doughty and Adebayo is joyful and worth the entrance fee.  We should be grateful to Mansfield for taking Flitcroft.    


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 11:35:38
Its the difference between a customer and a fan I think.

I know we're shit and will always be shit but I've been going long enough that I have an affection that will never fade. It's over an hour drive for me now but I still do most home games. I honestly can't think of many better ways to spend my Saturdays than with my mates watching footy to be honest.

As for shaping up, I think we'll be okay. Got a good chance of going up I feel, but it's too early to really tell.

Not got an issue with quality. Hell, I did 42 games in the Iffy relegation season. That team was dross but for the most part at least they tried. I can take being beaten by better teams.

It was the Wilson/Hart relegation season that destroyed me as a fan. That team was decent but the attitude was all wrong.
When we finally got rid of Wilson (too late imo) we needed a managed to galvanise the players & make them realise they were in a proper fight.

We appointed Paul fucking Hart, quite literally one of the worst managers of all time the exact opposite of what we needed.

I still can’t understand why we did that. What it was about Hart that appealed to those in charge. Again, quite literally anyone else in the entire universe would have been a better choice.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 11:43:33
Not got an issue with quality. Hell, I did 42 games in the Iffy relegation season. That team was dross but for the most part at least they tried. I can take being beaten by better teams.

It was the Wilson/Hart relegation season that destroyed me as a fan. That team was decent but the attitude was all wrong.
When we finally got rid of Wilson (too late imo) we needed a managed to galvanise the players & make them realise they were in a proper fight.

We appointed Paul fucking Hart, quite literally one of the worst managers of all time the exact opposite of what we needed.

I still can’t understand why we did that. What it was about Hart that appealed to those in charge. Again, quite literally anyone else in the entire universe would have been a better choice.

Hart had about a dozen games, he had I think the previous season kept Palace up from a similar sitution might have got a few more game to do it... so there was a certain logic.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 11:58:00
Hart had about a dozen games, he had I think the previous season kept Palace up from a similar sitution might have got a few more game to do it... so there was a certain logic.

At Palace he managed 3 wins in 14 games.
That shit wouldn’t have kept us up.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 12:12:35
I tend not to dwell on football past. Even those games during the 3 day week with crowds under 2000 and various seasons of general shite have all but slipped from memory.

I was definitely waning last season under Flitcroft - any reason not to go was seized upon - especially after Lukewarm Luke’s season.

I’m missing my first home game Saturday - off to Nerja for a week - so thanks to iFollow I shouldn’t miss all the excitement! The fire has returned.

I would really appreciate a good FA Cup run this season - away to any London PL side would do. I think it would galvanise some of the lapsed.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 17:03:59
At Palace he managed 3 wins in 14 games.
That shit wouldn’t have kept us up.

W3  D6 l5. As we know the six draws are worth 2 wins.  Had Hart come in for 14 games and replicated his Palace record we'd have been on 46, one off D and R and 2 off Saddlers who stayed up.

Of course his Palace rescue, was a different set of circumstances being in the Championship, but still 46 game but only 3 down. When he took them on they had 33 points against our 31.  He got them to 49 a similar amount would have kept us up.

It ws all the more remarkable as Palace were docked 10 for Admin.... I guess it all added to why Fitton and co saw him as a short term firefighter.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 17:21:52
Again it's too early to tell... Timi looked a talent, but was ground down by the physicality. We're about 5 weeks into the season, the weather is decent, pitches good.

The aim for Alzate will be to show he has the required physicality and mental application for the slog.

Not sure he will, only one game this season has been against a team wanting to rough it up, the good old says of Div 4 are gone for now, most teams try and play it around a little to pander to the top clbs desire when sending out these loanees.  Pitches are also pretty good now.  We were a rarity last season, I think I suggested at one point that we should churn our pitch-up to improve our chances.

Anyway, he's either someone we'd miss (your suggestion we shouldn't have loanees in the spine because we might lose them all), or he's someone not significant enough to make an impact (your suggestion he might be a risk for a team trying to get promotion)..  You can't have it both ways.

There is only one fact, we are, after 7 games, in the top 7.  There is nothing concrete to suggest it will get worse, nothing concrete to suggest it will get better.  Your view that it could all unravel holds as much credence as someone suggesting we'll find something not yet seen and romp the league.

My "belief" is we'll make the play offs, it is a lottery after that.  Is that good enough, maybe not - I  think we are heading where our pre-season prep seems to have been geared towards, be in the hunt for January, then take stock and see if some bells and whistles could make a difference.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 17:23:19
W3  D6 l5. As we know the six draws are worth 2 wins.  Had Hart come in for 14 games and replicated his Palace record we'd have been on 46, one off D and R and 2 off Saddlers who stayed up.

So, we have still gone down. Just 22nd rather than 24th

Palace stayed up despite Hart rather than because of.

He was always a shit manager.
Nothing will change that.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 17:46:43
So, we have still gone down. Just 22nd rather than 24th

Palace stayed up despite Hart rather than because of.

He was always a shit manager.
Nothing will change that.

The original point was what possessed seemingly sane men to appoint Hart... and there's the reason. OK it was a bad pick and Fitton acknowledged he'd screwed up by walking.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 17:57:04
His crap stats with Crystal Palace are not justification for his appointment.
Quite the opposite.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 18:18:53
Not got an issue with quality. Hell, I did 42 games in the Iffy relegation season. That team was dross but for the most part at least they tried. I can take being beaten by better teams.

It was the Wilson/Hart relegation season that destroyed me as a fan. That team was decent but the attitude was all wrong.
When we finally got rid of Wilson (too late imo) we needed a managed to galvanise the players & make them realise they were in a proper fight.

We appointed Paul fucking Hart, quite literally one of the worst managers of all time the exact opposite of what we needed.

I still can’t understand why we did that. What it was about Hart that appealed to those in charge. Again, quite literally anyone else in the entire universe would have been a better choice.

Each to their own but it appears to be a bit lame that you don't go anymore because we appointed Paul Hart.

You sound like the sort of person that doesn't speak to your mum anymore after she bought you crap shoes as a 7 year old.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 18:41:24
Each to their own but it appears to be a bit lame that you don't go anymore because we appointed Paul Hart.

You sound like the sort of person that doesn't speak to your mum anymore after she bought you crap shoes as a 7 year old.

I wish I didn’t speak to my Mum anymore. Having just produced her first grandchild I can’t go a day without seeing her!!

I didn’t stop going because we appointments Paul Hart, but that was the tipping point on the end of that season which began my melancholic feelings towards the Town.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: wheretherealredsare on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 18:49:14
I wish I didn’t speak to my Mum anymore. Having just produced her first grandchild I can’t go a day without seeing her!!

I didn’t stop going because we appointments Paul Hart, but that was the tipping point on the end of that season which began my melancholic feelings towards the Town.

Congratulations on the grandchild production. Maybe therein lies the answer.

Go to the match to avoid speaking to mum (for a few hours at least) :)


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 18:50:02
Each to their own but it appears to be a bit lame that you don't go anymore because we appointed Paul Hart.

You sound like the sort of person that doesn't speak to your mum anymore after she bought you crap shoes as a 7 year old.

Is that why VD is so vehement in his anti Hart stance.... to me he was a short term firefighter, brought in because he'd kept Palace up the previous season, and failed with us.  Disapponting but really no more than that, the reasons for our demise had been in motion for a while before Hart

I still have a smile when I see Calvin Andrew getting the odd goal for Rochdale... Hart obviously knew him from Palace and he looked terrible, but he's had a career as a sort of occasional goalscorer, and is probably regarded fondly at Rochdale.  Scored the winner at Cov ealrier this month, his first of the season


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 19:13:29
I don’t blame Hart for our demise. As you said it started well before that.

His appointment was still stupid and he was completely the wrong man for the job.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 19:15:54
Congratulations on the grandchild production. Maybe therein lies the answer.

Go to the match to avoid speaking to mum (for a few hours at least) :)

Meeting my now wife 5 years ago and working till 7am Saturday morning and playing football Saturday all contributed.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: suttonred on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 22:16:05
Is that why VD is so vehement in his anti Hart stance.... to me he was a short term firefighter, brought in because he'd kept Palace up the previous season, and failed with us.  Disapponting but really no more than that, the reasons for our demise had been in motion for a while before Hart

I still have a smile when I see Calvin Andrew getting the odd goal for Rochdale... Hart obviously knew him from Palace and he looked terrible, but he's had a career as a sort of occasional goalscorer, and is probably regarded fondly at Rochdale.  Scored the winner at Cov ealrier this month, his Only of the season

I'm confident in that prediction. Not Audrey getting a hitler tache confident, but confident.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, September 14, 2018, 01:17:27
I'm confident in that prediction. Not Audrey getting a hitler tache confident, but confident.

 :) Let's see, I reckon Calvin is good for another couple. interestingly he's made more apperances off the bench, than starts, in a career boasting over 300 games for 30 odd goals


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: ferret on Friday, September 14, 2018, 11:16:11
Loans started in the early 70's our first being Paull Walker from Wolves he got 2 starts and 3 sub appearances. Right from the off a manager could get in a decent loan or a shit loan, which still holds true today. Over the 45 years of their use, far more have been miss than hit.

You mention PdC and Wes, however he did sign  a further 9..... including some right stumers, Daniel Boateng, Jonathan Tehoue, Ahmed Abdulla, Christian Montano, Ronan Murray.... others like Jake Jervis and Liam Ridehalgh were semi OK, and I think we'd have all been happy to have signed John Bostock and Lee Holmes permanently.

Frequent loans represented a particularly sensible approach under Di Canio because if one of them stepped out of line they could immediately be sent ‘home’, without us needing to pay off an extortionate contract.

It can hardly be said that his regular use of the loan market resulted in failure.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, September 15, 2018, 18:08:56
On the basis of today's evidence, we're still a long way off shaping up into a functional match winning unit.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: bamboonoshop on Saturday, September 15, 2018, 18:15:39
On the basis of today's evidence, we're still a long way off shaping up into a functional match winning unit.

You're a fucker, you've been waiting to put this. Had we beat Bury you'd say "Well it was only Bury and to be expected, it wasn't a true test of whether we can mix it with the big boys..."

or similar.

Mods, change his name to Trolly McTrollface  ;) (You know I'm jesting Regina)


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, September 15, 2018, 18:22:38
You're a fucker, you've been waiting to put this. Had we beat Bury you'd say "Well it was only Bury and to be expected, it wasn't a true test of whether we can mix it with the big boys..."

or similar.

Mods, change his name to Trolly McTrollface  ;) (You know I'm jesting Regina)

No, had we won convincingly, I'd have said a good sign that we're making progress...


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: bamboonoshop on Saturday, September 15, 2018, 18:25:01
No, had we won convincingly, I'd have said a good sign that we're making progress...

 ;)


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, September 15, 2018, 19:57:56
You're a fucker, you've been waiting to put this. Had we beat Bury you'd say "Well it was only Bury and to be expected, it wasn't a true test of whether we can mix it with the big boys..."

or similar.

Mods, change his name to Trolly McTrollface  ;) (You know I'm jesting Regina)

This mod wishes that others would just follow my lead...

(https://i.imgur.com/XrIEwcC.jpg)



Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Amir on Saturday, September 15, 2018, 20:17:00
No, had we won convincingly, I'd have said a good sign that we're making progress...

My arse. You know you would have added a caveat.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, September 15, 2018, 20:26:07
On the basis of today's evidence, we're still a long way off shaping up into a functional match winning unit.
Right on cue, so predictable.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, September 15, 2018, 20:38:29
Please don't feed the troll.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, September 15, 2018, 21:09:40
Please don't feed the troll.

I agree 😂


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, September 15, 2018, 21:13:38
My arse. You know you would have added a caveat.

Last week I was saying we need to find a consistency and that Bury with one win on the road, since 16/17, presented a decent opportunity.

PB backed that up when he said....

Quote
“Bury have got this away record that they need to cast to one side if they possibly can, and that is something we need to exploit.”

“If a club doesn’t travel well, we have got to start the game on the front foot and get right in the face of the opposition to make sure they don’t travel well on Saturday and send them back to Bury with nothing in their back pockets.

Had we succeeded as PB wanted, I'd have said job done... good. Saying that Bury don't travel well is only statement of fact, even if a possible caveat.



Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: pauld on Sunday, September 16, 2018, 20:53:43
I think Reg is one of the few people on here who could carry off a cravat, with or without caveats. He has that kind of Leslie Philips suaveness :)


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, September 16, 2018, 21:52:25
I think Reg is one of the few people on here who could carry off a cravat, with or without caveats. He has that kind of Leslie Philips suaveness :)
[/quote

Sick bags at the ready. You really need to to sit on his knee more often and have one to one tutoring on being a word smith.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Sunday, September 16, 2018, 22:33:06
You really need to learn how to quote properly


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, September 16, 2018, 23:14:53
You really need to learn how to quote properly

Errr, no I don’t. Cause I don’t give a fuck. You can quote me on that if you like.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Sunday, September 16, 2018, 23:43:09
No one gives a fuck about your obsession with Reg either but we still end up with it in most threads.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: suttonred on Monday, September 17, 2018, 00:06:22
I think Reg is one of the few people on here who could carry off a cravat, with or without caveats. He has that kind of Leslie Philips suaveness :)

I can. (wrapped around my forehead rambo style) Sweat and all..


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, September 17, 2018, 06:45:51
No one gives a fuck about your obsession with Reg either but we still end up with it in most threads.

I’m pleased and no you don’t.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: pauld on Monday, September 17, 2018, 09:25:31
I can. (wrapped around my forehead rambo style) Sweat and all..

Class


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 17, 2018, 09:40:41
Whilst I would hate to butt in on the playground fun and games.....

How are we shaping up?

Consistently inconsistent, which if my old man is to be believed has basically characterised our performances on the whole since he first started going in the 1940's.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RedRag on Monday, September 17, 2018, 09:45:56
Whilst I would hate to butt in on the playground fun and games.....

How are we shaping up?

Consistently inconsistent, which if my old man is to be believed has basically characterised our performances on the whole since he first started going in the 1940's.

This   :clap:


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 10:09:48
With a few people saying they no longer trust PB and hes had enough time to sort it out - I did another quick "same point of the season" comparison with our other 2 championship winnings seasons in this league under Macari and PdC.

All after 11 matches played.

Brown   - position 11th W4 D4 L3 F16 A15 P16

Macari   - position 12th W5 D1 L5 F14 A15 P16

Di Canio - position 12th W5 D0 L6 F17 A12 P15

Interesting.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 10:14:05
Some had us down for automatic promotion after the Yeovil game. After yesterday, some have us down as not even making the playoffs. Football fans are a funny old breed.

We need some consistency. The frustrating thing about yesterday is that we are capable of so, so much better.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Sippo on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 10:19:18
We are not team that can win every game. Of course we will lose some. Not necessarily by a better team either. That is life. That is reality.

Too early to judge. After christmas is always the critical time. So many games left.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 10:43:35
We are not team that can win every game. Of course we will lose some. Not necessarily by a better team either. That is life. That is reality.

Too early to judge. After christmas is always the critical time. So many games left.

I think some defeats feel worse than others, so for example losing at Lincoln wasn't altogether unexpected. 

Losing at Crewe midweek, a bit more damaging. It throws onto the balance sheet 2 things.... last season we tended to struggle with midweek fixtures, against recently we've usually managed to get something at Gresty Road, as Crewe's model has looked increasingly anachronistic, leading to them struggling at the wrong end of Div 4.

We've now got Cobblers coming up.... not quite a must win yet, but not far away.  They've a new gaffer, and Curle obviously went back to basics, last night and got a 0-0.

I'd imagine he'll go for more of the same on Saturday, and make it ugly hope to nick something, especially as weather forecast isn't great.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 11:05:44
Fair to say I've flipped between playoffs and not playoffs.

You are quite right Sippo, its too early to know which way it'll go.

But its natural to react on current game trend isn't it? 3 out of the last  4 games haven't been good enough. At Yeovil it looked like Bury was an off day, now it looks potentially more serious. When we hammer Northampton (!) it'll flip back to "inconsistent".

Such is human nature.

I can't see autos this year, I'm 99.9% certain. You can quote me on that if I'm wrong,


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 11:09:17
Difference with the di Canio season is that when we had a weakness in the squad, it could be quickly attended too with a loan (ridehalgh and foderingham spring to mind as the most obvious examples). That cannot be done this time


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 11:09:49
With a few people saying they no longer trust PB and hes had enough time to sort it out - I did another quick "same point of the season" comparison with our other 2 championship winnings seasons in this league under Macari and PdC.

All after 11 matches played.

Brown   - position 11th W4 D4 L3 F16 A15 P16

Macari   - position 12th W5 D1 L5 F14 A15 P16

Di Canio - position 12th W5 D0 L6 F17 A12 P15

Interesting.


Let's look at all our Div 4 seasons.

Trollope 82/83 - position 6th  W5 D4 L2 P19

Beamish 83/84 - position 13th W4 D1 L6 P13

Macari 84/85 - position 12th W3 D3 L5 P12

Wise 06/07  - position 4th W 7 D2 L 2 P 23

Flitcroft 17/18 - position 9th W 6 D1 L 4 P19

Does this tell us anything  :hmmm:


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 11:21:05
2 championship winnings seasons in this league under Macari and PdC.

...
Macari   - position 12th W5 D1 L5 F14 A15 P16
...

This was before my time. anyone remember what the vibe was at this time under Macari. Were people seeing something good was happening, or were they as skeptical? What changed it around for Lou's team?

I guess we are less patient and demand instant results these days anyway. That said, football has changed too. Its not normal to build a squad over more than 1-2 years.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 11:38:18
This was before my time. anyone remember what the vibe was at this time under Macari. Were people seeing something good was happening, or were they as skeptical? What changed it around for Lou's team?

I guess we are less patient and demand instant results these days anyway. That said, football has changed too. Its not normal to build a squad over more than 1-2 years.

Although a dodgy league start on the road, we did well in the LC, beating Sunderland over 2 legs. The season was turned round by beating Exeter late on.... Colin Calderwood.  Lou made a number of personnel changes, as you could still acquire players back then so Kenny Allen came into goal... Nicky Coleman was loaned into left back, and Lou himself retired. Possibly the key change was Leigh Barnard, having filled in at LB for a bit came back from injury into midfield.

Leigh was one of those, who you will still find posters on here telling you was no good, but was to use modern parlance a water carrier. After the Exeter game we lost 3 of the next 37 winning 29 and drawing 5. Happy days.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 12:28:35
This was before my time. anyone remember what the vibe was at this time under Macari. Were people seeing something good was happening, or were they as skeptical? What changed it around for Lou's team?

I guess we are less patient and demand instant results these days anyway. That said, football has changed too. Its not normal to build a squad over more than 1-2 years.
Under Macari I felt there was a feel good factor in the club all season, even when we started poorly, Lou had been sacked the season before and reinstated so was an idol of tha fans who almost 100% backed him.

Brown does not have that but then again fans seem to be more fickle now than they were but that could just be social media giving idiots the freedom to express their feelings, back then it was only expressed in the pub or on matchdays so it could depend upon you circle of mates, if they were generally positive then so were you.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: bamboonoshop on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 12:33:17
Let's look at all our Div 4 seasons.

Trollope 82/83 - position 6th  W5 D4 L2 P19

Beamish 83/84 - position 13th W4 D1 L6 P13

Macari 84/85 - position 12th W3 D3 L5 P12

Wise 06/07  - position 4th W 7 D2 L 2 P 23

Flitcroft 17/18 - position 9th W 6 D1 L 4 P19

Does this tell us anything  :hmmm:


I think it tells us that comparative to the current season you are in (of which there are many variables), you can't draw any accurate conclusion to the data available.

My opinion? Don't forget I am a rose-tinted, over estimating of our players ability type (apparently). I think a lot are just acting on impulse after a match. So lose = we're Oxford (last night was just a bad advert for L2, although had Iandolo's strike gone in, many would look at it differently no doubt, still both teams were poor), Win = we're Hoddle's heroes, Draw = Just a middling L2 club looking for stability.

We really can't predict the future, even if we claim to be Nostradamus or Septic Peg but we can have a bloody good guess. FWIW and I know my opinion is looked at with very, very much caution so will always be overlooked. I think we have flipped our form around from last season. We seem to be much better at home than under Flitcroft and a little worse away (so far!). We have to remember though, we still haven't been at full strength yet. Every time we get a "settled team", someone has either picked up an injury or made a stupid tackle (Knoyle, Dunne). Taylor's red, I'll forgive and I still have my opinion on that (another story, another thread). PB is having to play players out of position because of this. Of course he can't control a player making a rash high tackle "in the moment" and players like Doughty, Woolery, and Conroy who would likely make the starting XI or at least be pushing, have been injured. The latter seems to be about there now though. If we have a near fully fit and unsuspended compliment, then from now to January I'd say we can be there or abouts the play-off places. True intent from the board, if PB gets to buy a "lay it off" type striker (or Richards discovers he can actually work in the current system or Woolery comes into the squad and plays well) and a LB cover then we still could make a good go at autos.

As mentioned above there are way too many variables right now. Come back to me on the evening of the 29th December (after we've played Mansfield off the park and won, resulting in DF getting the boot) and see where we are going in to the "Transfer Window".

Also, have you been to see your friend Lee play? He's rather good, you know.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 12:48:38
Under Macari I felt there was a feel good factor in the club all season, even when we started poorly, Lou had been sacked the season before and reinstated so was an idol of tha fans who almost 100% backed him.

Brown does not have that but then again fans seem to be more fickle now than they were but that could just be social media giving idiots the freedom to express their feelings, back then it was only expressed in the pub or on matchdays so it could depend upon you circle of mates, if they were generally positive then so were you.

Little difference between then and now, other than more platforms to express opinion... the opinions are largely the same.

So for example John Trollope..... yes John Trollope Town legend, was buried by negative fan reaction to a poor trot of results, when he was trying to build a sustainable Town side in the image of Bert Head, using a high number of local players.

Lou got a bit more time as we'd dropped to a historic low, and signs of progress, albeit small steps were discernible in his first season.  By his final season, when we had a poor trot, gates dropped right down, and questions were asked about his commitment to the cause. Poor trot was 1 win in 9 Oct/Nov 88, we still made the PO's Lou left at the end of the campaign.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 13:21:24
Thanks Reg/Venks


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 13:52:55
I still think the Play Offs by season end.  Our worst, Lincoln aside, has been narrow losses, our best was a convincing win - I think when we are poor, and we will be, we are still in games.  Last night for example was very poor but we could just as easily come away 1-0 winners, a draw or lost 2-0.  We'd have always been in that game though, even allowing for our performance.

I think our best is better than nearly all teams, our worst is only worse than a small handful.

Brown needs to have a think about being so stuck on a single formation though - last night and Bury have surely shown us that key players in key positions are crucial.  Lose them and it is not as simple as putting someone else into their slot, sometimes we have to look at the squad and see how you get the best out of the best eleven you can put out.

Putting it another way, if we do not make the Play Offs, Brown should have his bags packed for him.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 14:37:02
I think it tells us that comparative to the current season you are in (of which there are many variables), you can't draw any accurate conclusion to the data available.

My opinion? Don't forget I am a rose-tinted, over estimating of our players ability type (apparently). I think a lot are just acting on impulse after a match. So lose = we're Oxford (last night was just a bad advert for L2, although had Iandolo's strike gone in, many would look at it differently no doubt, still both teams were poor), Win = we're Hoddle's heroes, Draw = Just a middling L2 club looking for stability.

We really can't predict the future, even if we claim to be Nostradamus or Septic Peg but we can have a bloody good guess.

Of course, all seasons are different, but with some similarities discernible.  Namely you play 46 games 23 at home on the same pitch etc.  Most games will be closeish as most teams in Div 4 are of fairly similar ability, and it will take a while to find a winning formula if it is at all possible. Luck will play a big part which can't be easily factored in.

This explains why given the sample size no side has won 11 out of 11, no side has lost 11 out 11, the wins and loses are somewhere in between tending towards a median figure.  Scores in individual games follow this trend, it's unusual to get a 5-0, 0-6 outlier type of thing.

So the median figure for wins after 11 games is 5... it's wins that mostly accumulate points, so what you should be aiming to do.

PB has 4, slightly substandard but not by much and possible to rectify, compared to our most recent other season in Div 4 17/18 Flitcroft had 6, slightly above the median figure but again not by much... but is it possible to detect something even here?  Flitcroft seemd to like having plenty of forward players.... Smith, Norris, Mullin, Woolery, Anderson, and then Richards for Smith.... PB is more defensive minded doesn't mind a draw, hence why one fewer forward player and a bit more emphasis in midfield... or it coud be the injury problems to Conroy, Lancashire and Robertson forced his hand on the loan moves.

In the league winning seasons, Macari and PdC and were able to significantly strengthen when necessary.... not a luxury that will be available to PB. (Unless something very strange happens)


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 14:57:29
I still think the Play Offs by season end.  Our worst, Lincoln aside, has been narrow losses, our best was a convincing win -

I'm still at a loss whether to describe our late wins as lucky, or our inability to score before the 90th minute as unlucky. On balance I think they were deserved, but I've still no idea which side of the watershed we'll come down on as the season progresses. Probably both


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: bamboonoshop on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 15:32:11
Of course, all seasons are different, but with some similarities discernible.  Namely you play 46 games 23 at home on the same pitch etc.

In the league winning seasons, Macari and PdC and were able to significantly strengthen when necessary.... not a luxury that will be available to PB. (Unless something very strange happens)

Yeah, I feel our home form is better (I think stats back that up) than it was under Flitcroft to date. Can't deny he seemed to have a "nak" of finding a way to win away. However we haven't been overtly shit away. The standard of football is better and we are becoming harder to beat. It's like we've sorted the defence out (largely) and midfield, maybe PB was trying to get in a striker but those links have petered...for now. We certainly (as RobT says) have to get through the next three months and see where we are at. I'm sure if we aren't in a play-off spot or higher then it will be addressed in January (Power paid reportedly £350k for Woolery, so he does pay for a player). Well we'd hope. Sending Romanski, Will Henry, Twine and possibly Smith on loan would free up some wages to bring in two? We may even see a couple leave by mutual consent (Robbo & Is RCC still on our books or not?), possibly a retiree? I feel we are nearly there. The right shuffling of the squad and two more in the positions mentioned and we could be up there.

Anyway, nicely measured post Reg :)


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 15:59:33
Yeah, I feel our home form is better (I think stats back that up) than it was under Flitcroft to date.

It is, but a significant stat might be that at no stage under Flitcroft, did we draw back to back blanks in the goals for column. That didn't happen last season until the antepenultimate and penultimate games under Brown namely Grimsby (h) and ColU (a)


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 5, 2018, 12:55:28
So a bit more time has elapsed since the OP, so now more data to go on.... and it isn't comfortable reading.  As things stand with over a third of the season gone this is our worst ever Div 4 side.

17 games in, comparison

82/83 34 points p3rd
83/84 24 points p10th
84/85 23 points p12th
85/86 31 points p7th
06/07 31 points p4th
11/12 29 points p6th
17/18 29 points p5th

Using this by way of an indicator to final season's position

82/83 -5
83/84 -7
84/85 +4
85/86 +6
06/07 +1
11/12 +5
17/18 -4

In other words, usually from this stage of the season, although it can happen, mostly a side doesn't drop or rise too many positions until the end of the seasson.

In none of the seasons where we've had an improvement, could we get to the PO's from where we are, but an 82/83 style late slump would see us into the Conference.   I know there are those who maintain the Beamish outfit was the worst STFC side since the mid 50's, and certainly the air of atrophy hung thickly around the CG, but this is arguably worse.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, November 5, 2018, 13:06:46
The thread titles is ‘How are we shaping up’.

That shape is pear


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Monday, November 5, 2018, 13:15:32
Our worst ever start in the football league. Marvelous.

I've been a bit surprised by the calls for Brown to leave, more by some of the people who have seemed to be patient in previous dire situations.

But that really does put things into perspective.

And to be fair, his recent team selection are tipping me towards 'bugger off to Hull'. The only reason I'm not fully convinced its a good idea is that we may end up with Taylor. He seems a great pro,  but its too risky. Internal appointments...no.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 5, 2018, 13:31:17
Our worst ever start in the football league. Marvelous.

I've been a bit surprised by the calls for Brown to leave, more by some of the people who have seemed to be patient in previous dire situations.

But that really does put things into perspective.

And to be fair, his recent team selection are tipping me towards 'bugger off to Hull'. The only reason I'm not fully convinced its a good idea is that we may end up with Taylor. He seems a great pro,  but its too risky. Internal appointments...no.


I guess all managerial appointments are to some extent a risk, but if Taylor does possess a magic wand, this could be a good time to find out, insofar as realistically we're not going to make the PO's and should just about have enough to stay up as long as the likes of Macc and Numb continue to struggle.

Ideally Hull will take Brown and give Power some compensation.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Monday, November 5, 2018, 13:43:54
I guess all managerial appointments are to some extent a risk

True.

I'm just dead against internal appointments myself. And would prefer to try an 'up and coming' who has done a bit of management. Guess the chances of poaching anyone are zero.
-------------------------------
Not much to add on the 'how are we shaping up'.

Before the season started I thought we'd struggle for goals. Then August happened and I was looking a bit silly. Then September happened and I felt a bit smug.

It feels like we haven't hit the magic formula, but in searching for that we are continually tinkering and the result seems to be regression rather than progress.

In fact at times the players look a little confused in the roles they are supposed to be undertaking. Me too.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 5, 2018, 13:56:28
True.

I'm just dead against internal appointments myself. And would prefer to try an 'up and coming' who has done a bit of management. Guess the chances of poaching anyone are zero.
-------------------------------
Not much to add on the 'how are we shaping up'.

Before the season started I thought we'd struggle for goals. Then August happened and I was looking a bit silly. Then September happened and I felt a bit smug.

It feels like we haven't hit the magic formula, but in searching for that we are continually tinkering and the result seems to be regression rather than progress.

In fact at times the players look a little confused in the roles they are supposed to be undertaking. Me too.

It's the way of the modern game though to tinker, players have to be adaptable, to a certain extent... namely you probably wouldn't stick a centre half on the wing, but might ask him to play in a 3 as well as 2 and perhaps occasionally as a holding midfielder.

Our problem, is again that the quality of players we can afford to recruit on the Power budget isn't very good, which is then compounded by injuries and suspensions.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Monday, November 5, 2018, 14:23:20
Flexabiity is one thing.
Its the players left in the cold suddenly appearing as starters and vice versa that does my nut.

I know squads are there to be rotated for freshness and competition for places. This feels a bit more..random..in the hope we happen upon 'the solution'.

Do you honestly think McCourt plays his role better than Dave for example. That's one example of baffling tinkering. Though there is an obvious explanation.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Monday, November 5, 2018, 14:29:33
I still hold firm that the quality of players in the squad, even allowing for obvious in-balances, should be enough to get into the play offs given the nature of opposition we are playing.  Take Colchester, a team doing well.  There was nothing on display that showed them to be a superior team by way of quality of players.  Certainly having watched them for 90 minutes, nothing that we should have feared.

Therefore, the current performance of the team suggests, to me, that we are underperforming.  That tinkering is the reason as far as I can see it.  There is nothing wrong with change - in fact, I've said before that trying something new and unseen works best.  Our 1990 team played a formation and style not really seen by others before.  Doing it effectively, with the right players meant we caught a lead on the division.  Ossie then had some success to begin with higher up, but teams work it out eventually.  Redknapp made a career by essentially changing his squad every year or two.  That is not the same as changing from one game to the next, every game.  Players don't tend to be a reflection of the average when you look at smarts - they concentrate on being better than everyone else at football when at school, not their homework (generalisation, but it is why players who get degrees are often on the BBC homepage).  Making them figure out how to play every game cannot be helpful, unless you recruited based on educational qualifications.  Let them be good at what they do, find out how to extract that, stick to it for a season, then re-invent again.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 5, 2018, 14:55:23
Players don't tend to be a reflection of the average when you look at smarts - they concentrate on being better than everyone else at football when at school, not their homework (generalisation, but it is why players who get degrees are often on the BBC homepage).  Making them figure out how to play every game cannot be helpful, unless you recruited based on educational qualifications.
You're assuming that:
a) There is always a correlation between intelligence and educational attainment
b) That there is only type of intelligence, which can be measured in school exams, and applied to football.

Both wildly incorrect IMO.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Monday, November 5, 2018, 15:04:22
Football intelligence is another matter, but very few display it, again just an opinion.  Even at the very top level, look at Guardiola and his evident frustration during games they are winning 6-1 - because players do not always follow the plan.  He is someone who seems to have that intelligence but he still doesn't believe his team are delivering to the level he thinks they can do if they just follow the plan, training. instruction, coaching etc.

Coopers season is a good example of when it works - we did not deviate from a defined plan for a good 60% of that season.  We did toward the end when we added Swift and it created a bit of uncertainty, and we looked far more fragile overall despite having a better player in the team.  The rest of the league seemed a bit bamboozled by us, before a couple of teams worked out a way, then they all replicated that towards the end.  It nearly worked over a full season, maybe a plan B was needed towards the end, but not a new plan for every game.  Some fans were frustrated at the way we played out so dangerously at times, but it was the plan.  The team knew it, they stuck to it and it paid dividends more than it worked against us.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 5, 2018, 15:08:10
Yep, agree with all that. And none of it has anything whatsoever to do with the school system or school exams, which was my point.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, November 5, 2018, 15:11:13
So a bit more time has elapsed since the OP, so now more data to go on.... and it isn't comfortable reading.  As things stand with over a third of the season gone this is our worst ever Div 4 side.

17 games in, comparison

82/83 34 points p3rd
83/84 24 points p10th
84/85 23 points p12th
85/86 31 points p7th
06/07 31 points p4th
11/12 29 points p6th
17/18 29 points p5th

Using this by way of an indicator to final season's position

82/83 -5
83/84 -7
84/85 +4
85/86 +6
06/07 +1
11/12 +5
17/18 -4

In other words, usually from this stage of the season, although it can happen, mostly a side doesn't drop or rise too many positions until the end of the seasson.

In none of the seasons where we've had an improvement, could we get to the PO's from where we are, but an 82/83 style late slump would see us into the Conference.   I know there are those who maintain the Beamish outfit was the worst STFC side since the mid 50's, and certainly the air of atrophy hung thickly around the CG, but this is arguably worse.
I've been troubled by the towns form of late but your stats have given me food for thought.
If we carry on as we are there's not going to be enough games by the end of Jan to save our arses based on our current form. We may only stay up by other teams being more shite than us despite our current mid table position. So here's my thoughts, the club is run on a shoe string and may not have the funds to remove PB or better still bring in a manger who can turn things around. If he does go then the sooner the better as we could stop the rot with some Jan signings (will be loans and freebies but that would be something) There's an air of resignation regarding our plight as we've been slowly sinking for a few seasons now, unless there's a wholesale change in the club its looking like we're heading to the conference. We have 3 old players who can't cut it in this division, we start with them each week which is a kin to sending out 8 players to face 11. Why does PB keep repeating the same mistakes/ is it part of a bigger plan! LASTLY OTHERS HAVE POSTED THIS, PLEASE GOD NO INTERNAL APPOINTMENTS, IT NEVER WORKS.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Monday, November 5, 2018, 15:14:45
Oh, and Guardiola's "Genius" is that he has deployed the same plan for many seasons and nobody has yet really figured it out - his teams still largely retain a much higher % of the possession even when playing teams with equal resources and potentially playing talent.  His team are going to lose the odd game and miss out, but by and large there isn't  clear way being used to combat him.  Hoddle did the same with us - nobody else was playing that way.  Cambridge thought they had it, then Hoddle stuck two fingers up at them.  You still lose games, we didn't have the best squad and had to sell a fullback to pay a tax bill, but we were always able to play our way.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Monday, November 5, 2018, 15:17:41
That's a lot of rambling from me to say the problem is Brown does not have a plan, that is evident and I believe the underlying cause to our position and performances of late.  Made more frustrating by the fact that for a few games we seemed to be on to something.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, November 5, 2018, 15:40:23
That's a lot of rambling from me to say the problem is Brown does not have a plan, that is evident and I believe the underlying cause to our position and performances of late.  Made more frustrating by the fact that for a few games we seemed to be on to something.
I feel that if we had a good plan and played to our strengths then it would be a diffrent season.They've proved they're good at times. However we need strengthening, which isn't going to happen and why would players sign for us now. If we lose or draw our next two games, then the rest of our season will become squeaky bum time.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 5, 2018, 16:51:07
Oh, and Guardiola's "Genius" is that he has deployed the same plan for many seasons and nobody has yet really figured it out - his teams still largely retain a much higher % of the possession even when playing teams with equal resources and potentially playing talent.  His team are going to lose the odd game and miss out, but by and large there isn't  clear way being used to combat him.  Hoddle did the same with us - nobody else was playing that way.  Cambridge thought they had it, then Hoddle stuck two fingers up at them.  You still lose games, we didn't have the best squad and had to sell a fullback to pay a tax bill, but we were always able to play our way.

Guardiola's trick is to get clubs whose financial might over the rest is so huge that can amass a huge squad of talent to tinker with. That gives you a massive head start,  I'm sure Brown could have us a few slots up the table with a budget say comparable to Lincoln, Mansfield or even ColU.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 5, 2018, 17:00:26
I've been troubled by the towns form of late but your stats have given me food for thought.
If we carry on as we are there's not going to be enough games by the end of Jan to save our arses based on our current form. We may only stay up by other teams being more shite than us despite our current mid table position. So here's my thoughts, the club is run on a shoe string and may not have the funds to remove PB or better still bring in a manger who can turn things around. If he does go then the sooner the better as we could stop the rot with some Jan signings (will be loans and freebies but that would be something) There's an air of resignation regarding our plight as we've been slowly sinking for a few seasons now, unless there's a wholesale change in the club its looking like we're heading to the conference. We have 3 old players who can't cut it in this division, we start with them each week which is a kin to sending out 8 players to face 11. Why does PB keep repeating the same mistakes/ is it part of a bigger plan! LASTLY OTHERS HAVE POSTED THIS, PLEASE GOD NO INTERNAL APPOINTMENTS, IT NEVER WORKS.

Lancashire isn't old, if that's who you mean, he obviously is sufering a bit atm with the injury. It isn't Taylor and Richards who are the problem rather the younger players, who are struggling to become league standard.

I was interested last night watching Vitorino Hilton at Montpellier 41 year old centre back, Montpellier have the joint best defensive record in Ligue Un, having conceded something like 6 all season. Hilton doesn't run much but organises the younger lads around him, who do that bit for him.

That's Brown's plan if you like, now you can argue as to whther it's failing because the senior players aren't communicating well enough, or as I feel more likely, the younger players are not good enough.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Tails on Monday, November 5, 2018, 17:04:01
We won't finish top 7 under Brown. I was willing to give him time as I thought the football generally improved under him at the tail end of last season... But for me he isn't the man to take us up and I think it will be better to get someone in now and give them January - July to prepare for next season (this one has gone, lets face it). Even if its Matty Taylor. I know people are against internal appointments but he knows the club well now, the fans like him and he's a smart fella. Harsh to judge him on that Cheltenham game alone last season I think.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 5, 2018, 17:19:21
We won't finish top 7 under Brown. I was willing to give him time as I thought the football generally improved under him at the tail end of last season... But for me he isn't the man to take us up and I think it will be better to get someone in now and give them January - July to prepare for next season (this one has gone, lets face it). Even if its Matty Taylor. I know people are against internal appointments but he knows the club well now, the fans like him and he's a smart fella. Harsh to judge him on that Cheltenham game alone last season I think.


Because he knows the club, I'm far from convinced he'd take it if offered.  When Macari took us on, people asked him why, and he answered because STFC should be higher up the league having just finished in a historic low position, therefore he should be able to get progress on his CV.... now of course he did this, but only on the back of financial doping, that fans did not know about at the time.

Brown came out with the old we should be higher up the pyramid bullshit, but Power's modus operandi tells us different.  If If I was an ambitious wannabe gaffer looking at a first job, I'd want an awful lot of guarantees from Power about budgets, future plans regarding training facilities, etc before risking my reputation especially when he can probabaly get a nice support job at a Prem club, or an upwardly mobile club like say Pompey for more money.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Tails on Monday, November 5, 2018, 17:36:27
Almost makes it a win / win for him I think. If he does well, it looks good on the CV... If he doesn't, then it was because it was in difficult circumstances. I still think he'd make a decent manager one day, at Swindon or somewhere else. I feel like the squad we have is only 1 or 2 away from being a top 3 side at this level. The talent is there and Brown currently isn't utilising it at all.

He seems to genuinely enjoy being at the club too.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Monday, November 5, 2018, 17:40:36
Harsh to judge him on that Cheltenham game alone last season I think.

Agreed there. Certainly he could be a good manager. My objection is I don't think the transition from teammate to boss has worked well in the past. If it happens and Taylor got it, I am not closed to the idea that it could work this time .


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 5, 2018, 17:49:35
Almost makes it a win / win for him I think. If he does well, it looks good on the CV... If he doesn't, then it was because it was in difficult circumstances. I still think he'd make a decent manager one day, at Swindon or somewhere else. I feel like the squad we have is only 1 or 2 away from being a top 3 side at this level. The talent is there and Brown currently isn't utilising it at all.

He seems to genuinely enjoy being at the club too.


I really don't see the talent.... I ask myself a basic question, could I see this lad playing further up the pyramid?  When I look at our squad the answer is mostly... no. Alzate and Bayo whilst having some ability, are miles away from being near a finished product, which is of course why they're on loan to try and add that missing something.

I was interested to read that Bayo was in fact brought through by Fulham as a centre half, up front is a recent conversion.

Rather what you need to do is forge a unit where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts and we're not doing that atm for a number of reasons.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 5, 2018, 18:13:47
Agreed there. Certainly he could be a good manager. My objection is I don't think the transition from teammate to boss has worked well in the past. If it happens and Taylor got it, I am not closed to the idea that it could work this time .

The what makes a good manager question is one of life's great mysteries.  I mean if it ws so obvious that Eddie Howe was going to be a managerial genius why couldn't we see it when he was with us... and why didn't it work at Burnley.

Look at someone like Julian Nagelsmann at Hoffenheim took them on aged 28, when in a releagtion battle kept them up and got CL qualification the next season for the first time in their history, still only 31.

Injury finished his career early so he went off to uni, and then coached youth sides on graduating, before getting the top job.

I guess Power saw a bit of Nagelsmann in Luke....


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Tails on Monday, November 5, 2018, 18:26:33
Agreed there. Certainly he could be a good manager. My objection is I don't think the transition from teammate to boss has worked well in the past. If it happens and Taylor got it, I am not closed to the idea that it could work this time .

Has it happened much at Swindon? I can't really think of any, not permanently at least. Ady Williams... The Miller / Ward combo had it for a few games. Who else?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 5, 2018, 18:58:49
 The sort of thing we could do with is a 2000 -13 vintage Paul Sturrock.... I guess Power sees Brown as a poor man's Sturrock.

 Always thought it a shame he'd had enough by the time Fitton et al came on board, so was tempted by a nostalgic return to Plymuff, where it didn't work out him second time.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Monday, November 5, 2018, 19:04:46
I really don't see the talent.... I ask myself a basic question, could I see this lad playing further up the pyramid?  When I look at our squad the answer is mostly... no. Alzate and Bayo whilst having some ability, are miles away from being near a finished product, which is of course why they're on loan to try and add that missing something.

I was interested to read that Bayo was in fact brought through by Fulham as a centre half, up front is a recent conversion.

Rather what you need to do is forge a unit where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts and we're not doing that atm for a number of reasons.

Alzate is better than anything I have seen at this level - that doesn't mean he will be a great player, but a decent Manager should be able to extract something useful from him this season.

Adebayo was a forward when younger, Fulham tried converting him to a defender due to his size and frame, they then agreed to move him back being a forward.

Both Doughty and Diagarouga are better than this level when on form, they have even shown as much with us this season in several games (not all).

Nelson is more than competent.

Knoyle could well have a career at the next level, depends how much effort goes into nurturing him.

There are others with a lot to prove, but there is enough in this squad to compete (we have competed in pretty much every game bar two).  You might like to portray us as cannon fodder, but the results show we are not.  They don't lie, we are not performing well enough to be higher than we are, but they show a team that is not far off those it plays against when it loses.  You tell me that Colchester looked markedly better than us on Saturday?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Monday, November 5, 2018, 19:11:36
Has it happened much at Swindon? I can't really think of any, not permanently at least. Ady Williams... The Miller / Ward combo had it for a few games. Who else?

Not really, but we have promoted from within without much success.  I think it depends on the who, not the what.  Gorman and Williams both being seen as good coaches and were generally friendly with the squad, as far as we are told.  Not sure how Taylor is seen internally.  We can see what he does on the pitch and he does offer advice but he doesn't seem to lead, not from what I can see on the screen anyway.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, November 5, 2018, 19:28:50
I got the impression that the players didn't really fancy playing under Taylor in his one game in charge.

Players are usually well up for it when there's a new manager to try and impress and what not, but they just didn't seem that bothered. I know it was only one game and it's harsh to judge him on that, but still...


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Frigby Daser on Monday, November 5, 2018, 19:39:30
Eddie Howe lost his first two games at Bournemouth. We’ve nothing to judge Taylor on, apart from the fact he is clearly intelligent, articulate and that he’s incredibly keen to coach and appears to be ambitious.

I just don’t buy the “internal appointments don’t work” theory. They don’t work where they are made by default - i.e. he is here, so why not? There are a lot of those, where sentimentality or budget prevail over an objective selection of the best available option.

Taylor doesn’t fall into that bracket. If he applied, having not played at the club, he would still fit the criteria I would be looking for in a manager. As a lower half League 2 team, we no longer have the option of having “previous success” as a criterion. The fact Brown was appointed on that basis suggests it isn’t the best indicator anyway.

Appoint Taylor. Let him choose an assistant. What have we got to lose? We’re heading nowhere as it is. I just have a very good feeling he could turn us around.



Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 5, 2018, 19:43:25
Alzate is better than anything I have seen at this level - that doesn't mean he will be a great player, but a decent Manager should be able to extract something useful from him this season.

Adebayo was a forward when younger, Fulham tried converting him to a defender due to his size and frame, they then agreed to move him back being a forward.

Both Doughty and Diagarouga are better than this level when on form, they have even shown as much with us this season in several games (not all).

Nelson is more than competent.

Knoyle could well have a career at the next level, depends how much effort goes into nurturing him.

There are others with a lot to prove, but there is enough in this squad to compete (we have competed in pretty much every game bar two).  You might like to portray us as cannon fodder, but the results show we are not.  They don't lie, we are not performing well enough to be higher than we are, but they show a team that is not far off those it plays against when it loses.  You tell me that Colchester looked markedly better than us on Saturday?

Re Alzate being better than anything you've seen at this level... Matt Ritchie  :hmmm: 

Bayo's physical attributes may get him a career, but not necessarily at a high level.  Dia and Doughty have played at a higher level but it's doubtful they'll go back upwards.

Sid may make a career as a lower league stopper, and there's nothing wrong with that. Knoyle for me doesn't do enough, tidy , but you don't get a Kewell saying if you stop Knoyle getting balls in the box you stop Swindon like he did with Taylor.

I've said many times one of the good things about Div 4 is it is a relatively even league, hence a lot of draws and mostly not much between sides.... it's the little things that make the difference. So for example ColU could lure our leading goalscorer away, which has just given them an edge, especially as he wasn't replaced. Someone like a Lincoln could sign a Harry Toffolo, a player I'm sure we'd have all liked to see at LB.

Sometimes, the marginal gains can be something a bit strange and out of the blue.... so for example Accy last year, pick up Kayden Jackson who really had no sort of pedigree at all, he gets them 16 goals and they win the league.... Jackson gets snapped up by Ipswich has scored one league goal, and Tractorboys are detached at the foot of Div 2.

How much impact did Accy's free burger bonus for winning have?  There's little sign that anything a bit random is happening for us like a Twine coming good.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 5, 2018, 20:02:15
Eddie Howe lost his first two games at Bournemouth. We’ve nothing to judge Taylor on, apart from the fact he is clearly intelligent, articulate and that he’s incredibly keen to coach and appears to be ambitious.

I just don’t buy the “internal appointments don’t work” theory. They don’t work where they are made by default - i.e. he is here, so why not? There are a lot of those, where sentimentality or budget prevail over an objective selection of the best available option.

Taylor doesn’t fall into that bracket. If he applied, having not played at the club, he would still fit the criteria I would be looking for in a manager. As a lower half League 2 team, we no longer have the option of having “previous success” as a criterion. The fact Brown was appointed on that basis suggests it isn’t the best indicator anyway.

Appoint Taylor. Let him choose an assistant. What have we got to lose? We’re heading nowhere as it is. I just have a very good feeling he could turn us around.



Howe was appointed by default according by your definition, Bormuff were skint had a skeleton staff, and had been docked something like 15 points. He was still on the payroll but injured and a senior player, so he got the gig.

Flasher's point about Taylor's one game is semi valid, apart from normal rules of engagement don't apply v Numb.   I doubt Taylor has a magic wand, the most reliable way for us to get back some forward momentum is for Power to either invest, or sell up to someone who can.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, November 5, 2018, 20:16:57
The problem for any owner who doesn’t just want to throw money at it, is there is not much incentive to be in L1 as opposed to staying in L2.

Accepting life in L2 has, of course, inherent problems - as in actually staying there.

What if the players who may well be capable of better realise the club isn’t really focussed or that bothered about getting promotion?

It’s why every club needs to be 100% pulling in the same direction. I honestly don’t feel, atm, that the club is that bothered.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Frigby Daser on Monday, November 5, 2018, 20:24:19
He was - the point is that if you extrapolate data on managers appointed (a) because they are in the building, and (b) those that happen to be in the building but would be the best fit anyway, even if they’d been outsiders - then the number of success stories in (b) would likely the as high, if not higher, than with any other managerial appointment. It is far too basic to say “he’s already here, so it cannot work.” That is simply false.

And based on a fairly safe assumption that neither of your Power-related solutions have even a remote possibility of happening, I think it’s fair to say a change of Manager is the most likely variable at this time.  


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 5, 2018, 20:33:08
The problem for any owner who doesn’t just want to throw money at it, is there is not much incentive to be in L1 as opposed to staying in L2.

Accepting life in L2 has, of course, inherent problems - as in actually staying there.

What if the players who may well be capable of better realise the club isn’t really focussed or that bothered about getting promotion?

It’s why every club needs to be 100% pulling in the same direction. I honestly don’t feel, atm, that the club is that bothered.

Well you're going to get a better calibre of loan in Div 3, and then maybe you can pick them up if decent like Luongo,
 Byrne, so flog for decent money.... further better players around you make all players look better to some extent, so a Ben Gladwin looked good for a while with us we got a decent fee and he's been shit since.

This won't have escaped Power... however what has escaped Power is the ability for his contacts to spot a player. There are still players to be had... take Jack Marriott who's attracting a lot of attention at Derby.... youth at Ipswich, without playing, so out on loan 3 times to Woking, where he scord a few... Luton take a punt, then onto Posh where he scored loads last year.

I wonder if our scouts saw him when watching Jonny Goddard and thinking he was the business.

Another example... David Brooks a handful of Conference games for Halifax, then Sheff U buy him.... a handful of games for them then 11 mill to Bormuff.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 5, 2018, 20:47:39
He was - the point is that if you extrapolate data on managers appointed (a) because they are in the building, and (b) those that happen to be in the building but would be the best fit anyway, even if they’d been outsiders - then the number of success stories in (b) would likely the as high, if not higher, than with any other managerial appointment. It is far too basic to say “he’s already here, so it cannot work.” That is simply false.

And based on a fairly safe assumption that neither of your Power-related solutions have even a remote possibility of happening, I think it’s fair to say a change of Manager is the most likely variable at this time.  

It's axiomatic that most managers fail, as it is a very difficult job.  It requires all sorts of peculiar personal qualities many of them not necessarily that pleasant. So for example you have to be ruthless without appearing bullying... I think having trusted staff around is also key, so that you can delegate many aspects.  Brown may well be missing Horton's input.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Frigby Daser on Monday, November 5, 2018, 20:55:46
You seem to be missing my point. Taylor wouldn’t fail because he has spent time at the club. He would succeed or fail depending on whether he is any good.

I’d  also say that managers have succeeded without being ruthless, and some have succeeded whilst openly encouraging an element of fear (PDC, Clough...). Some have succeeded without trusted staff, but some don’t. Brown may be missing Horton, but he didn’t do much better when he had him here. I’m not sure how any of this relates to the original point above, except to say that there is no golden rule to managerial success, just trends, many of which get bucked.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Tails on Monday, November 5, 2018, 21:02:36
I got the impression that the players didn't really fancy playing under Taylor in his one game in charge.

Players are usually well up for it when there's a new manager to try and impress and what not, but they just didn't seem that bothered. I know it was only one game and it's harsh to judge him on that, but still...

Not true. The fans and players were well up for it. We just didn't play well and the heads dropped. The defence was terrible that day and Eisa tore us apart


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Monday, November 5, 2018, 21:17:19
Reg - Alzate is better than anything I have seen this season.  Even Ritchie was bang average when he first came - at the time he looked a far less likely prospect than Ward.  PDC found his sweet spot, that's for sure.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 00:33:07
Reg - Alzate is better than anything I have seen this season.  Even Ritchie was bang average when he first came - at the time he looked a far less likely prospect than Ward.  PDC found his sweet spot, that's for sure.

Oh right. Not a lot to compare with this season. Danny Ward now there's a name.... his little knock in after a run by JPM at the Valley, a thing of great beauty, but look at the hero of that night Steven Darby, when it boils down to it, it's only a game of football.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 11:11:26
I really don't see the talent.... I ask myself a basic question, could I see this lad playing further up the pyramid?  When I look at our squad the answer is mostly... no. Alzate and Bayo whilst having some ability, are miles away from being near a finished product, which is of course why they're on loan to try and add that missing something.

I was interested to read that Bayo was in fact brought through by Fulham as a centre half, up front is a recent conversion.

Rather what you need to do is forge a unit where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts and we're not doing that atm for a number of reasons.

Brighton have given Alzate a 5 year contract I think so they obviously see him as a talent and someone who could play at a higher level. I presume next season they'll be looking for a league 1 side for a loan next season, and then Championship etc.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 11:21:41
Oh right. Not a lot to compare with this season. Danny Ward now there's a name.... his little knock in after a run by JPM at the Valley, a thing of great beauty, but look at the hero of that night Steven Darby, when it boils down to it, it's only a game of football.

Great post Reg.

Going off topic for just a second, did anyone see Doddie Weir either on the one show or before the Wales v Scotland egg chasing on Saturday? His life is slowly being shut down and he speaks with such humour and with a smile on his face. Its a battle that sadly he can't win, but he won't let that show. Such a horrific disease.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 11:24:29
Brighton have given Alzate a 5 year contract I think so they obviously see him as a talent and someone who could play at a higher level. I presume next season they'll be looking for a league 1 side for a loan next season, and then Championship etc.

Doesn't really indicate a whole lot, other than B and HA think he might make a player, and not much to lose if he doesn't.

Chelsea have 40 players on loan, and an U 21 side of players there who could win 4-0 at the CG.... more or less none of these will play for the first team, but they may make a few bob out of selling them, Patrick Bamford style, on the back of the loans.

Soton extended Jordan Turnbull's contract when he was with us, then soon afterwards moved him out.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 11:51:37
Doesn't really indicate a whole lot, other than B and HA think he might make a player, and not much to lose if he doesn't.

Chelsea have 40 players on loan, and an U 21 side of players there who could win 4-0 at the CG.... more or less none of these will play for the first team, but they may make a few bob out of selling them, Patrick Bamford style, on the back of the loans.

Soton extended Jordan Turnbull's contract when he was with us, then soon afterwards moved him out.

I don't disagree with you at all. Premier league sides have the resources to work like that unfortunately. Hopefully there will be a change of rules to limit that.

What is good to see is talented English players getting a chance in Germany. Reese Nelson and Jadon Sancho tearing up the Bundesliga. Closer to home Loftus-Cheek finally looks to be given a chance at Chelsea and Morgan Gibbs-White at Wolves looks a talent as well. I'm sure there are others but the future looks bright for England at last.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 12:59:13
I don't disagree with you at all. Premier league sides have the resources to work like that unfortunately. Hopefully there will be a change of rules to limit that.

What is good to see is talented English players getting a chance in Germany. Reese Nelson and Jadon Sancho tearing up the Bundesliga. Closer to home Loftus-Cheek finally looks to be given a chance at Chelsea and Morgan Gibbs-White at Wolves looks a talent as well. I'm sure there are others but the future looks bright for England at last.


I suppose Brexit will close off that route for young English players.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 13:51:01
I suppose Brexit will close off that route for young English players.

Who the hell knows. Its a risk.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 15:44:56
I suppose Brexit will close off that route for young English players.
It could close off non Uk players coming here as well. Then perhaps our youngsters won't need to ply their trade in the bunglers league.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 18:34:18
I suppose Brexit will close off that route for young English players.
Might have stopped Vigs going to Waterford


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 19:20:20
Might have stopped Vigs going to Waterford

Although there has been free movement between UK and RoI since the 1920's, you do wonder if it can carry on post Brexit.

 


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 19:44:55
Hopefully our final away game won't be a who retains their league status shootout.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 19:52:34
Hopefully our final away game won't be a who retains their league status shootout.

That doesn't bear thinking about....


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 20:25:02
Although there has been free movement between UK and RoI since the 1920's, you do wonder if it can carry on post Brexit.

 

How can it?  I assume at a Passport/Nationality level maybe, but you can't retain an open border without undermining the entire point, otherwise those pesky Polaks will keep flooding in to take your jobs while also sponging off of the benefits.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 21:38:44
That doesn't bear thinking about....
We might come back to your post at the end of January. By then we may start thinking about it!


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 22:37:09
Although there has been free movement between UK and RoI since the 1920's, you do wonder if it can carry on post Brexit.

 

Why not? If it did before why shouldn’t it or wouldn’t it again?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 22:55:17
We might come back to your post at the end of January. By then we may start thinking about it!

Oldham got their point at Meadow Lane to drop us down to 17th.... our lowest position after a significant amount of games since finishing 17th in 83/84, however the Beamish side only dropped there after te final round of games previously spending most of the seasona bit higher.

Does keep a nice gap to Notts mind, so not all bad.... further Flitcroft's boys again did us a favour by beating Grimsby and so moving into the PO positions.  Grimsby will most likely be one of those who we won't be able to afford a repeat of last season if we are to stay up.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, November 7, 2018, 07:46:57
At risk of bringing politics into this thread, I very much doubt FoM is going to end at all.

https://news.sky.com/story/eu-free-movement-to-continue-under-no-deal-brexit-minister-suggests-11545699


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: singingiiiffy on Thursday, November 8, 2018, 22:12:33
it may be early but iv pretty much written off this season already in terms of expectations.

Compared to last season we are the same if not stronger in all areas of the pitch except up top. All flitcrofts team needed was cb's and a decent keeper which we now have decent competition for.

Should have kept Mullin personally, in hindsight you could say we should have kept Norris but it was a case of it just wasn't going to work and sensible to cash in, that cash however should have gone back on a striker. Seems like we took a gamble on a loan striker, an old experienced striker on a goal drought and a hit and miss Woolery to get us promoted.

The one tiny bit of hope is to get to january and not be too far behind


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 8, 2018, 22:23:05
it may be early but iv pretty much written off this season already in terms of expectations.

Compared to last season we are the same if not stronger in all areas of the pitch except up top. All flitcrofts team needed was cb's and a decent keeper which we now have decent competition for.

Should have kept Mullin personally, in hindsight you could say we should have kept Norris but it was a case of it just wasn't going to work and sensible to cash in, that cash however should have gone back on a striker. Seems like we took a gamble on a loan striker, an old experienced striker on a goal drought and a hit and miss Woolery to get us promoted.

The one tiny bit of hope is to get to january and not be too far behind
January, unless we go on a blinding run, could be another 8 to 10 defeats, and or draws away. If we're not close to playoffs who's going to sign for us just to be involved in a relegation battle? Will the solution be more non league, non fee unpolished turds. What a bad position we find ourselves in, unless we start getting back to back wins and that's not happended for ages. With the benefit of hindsight I can safely say that every season we start with a team which is worse than the last. Difficult times and dark days for STFC, where's our saviour when we need one!


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: singingiiiffy on Thursday, November 8, 2018, 22:49:34
January, unless we go on a blinding run, could be another 8 to 10 defeats, and or draws away. If we're not close to playoffs who's going to sign for us just to be involved in a relegation battle? Will the solution be more non league, non fee unpolished turds. What a bad position we find ourselves in, unless we start getting back to back wins and that's not happended for ages. With the benefit of hindsight I can safely say that every season we start with a team which is worse than the last. Difficult times and dark days for STFC, where's our saviour when we need one!

I still can't say that this team is worse than last (obviously points reflect that though), keepers, centre backs and centre midfields have significantly improved. just hasn't come together and the lack of a goal scoring highlights the rest of the teams flaws.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 8, 2018, 23:08:19
I still can't say that this team is worse than last (obviously points reflect that though), keepers, centre backs and centre midfields have significantly improved. just hasn't come together and the lack of a goal scoring highlights the rest of the teams flaws.

Not only did we lose Norris and Mullin and replace them with a loan kid, but also Matt Preston, who although we offered to, was always going to sign for Mansfield.  Is it a coincidence they've the best defensive record in Div 4 ?  We replaced Preston with Nelson, again on loan, not a bad player but not as good atm.

The defence isn't that much worse, our 22 conceded plays last season's 20 after 17 games, but the 19 scored against 26, tells you all you need to know...... further that is the fewest for any Div 4 campaign at the same stage

We are better in midfield, however Brown punted on the Dia/Doughty axis and it just hasn't worked out due to injury and suspension.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, December 23, 2018, 15:45:58
 Time for an update....   the last input into this thread was in the last days of Brown. Since then we've played a further 6 league games under Wellens and accumulated 10 points. So a bit of new manager bounce... if continuing at that rate we'd get 69 points, last season we had 68 finishing 9th.  So half way through and played everybody once. 

We look atm pretty much a midtable outfit, which fits the perception of how the squad was developed back in the summer.

Given that we had a flirtation with the nether regions after the Carlisle game, the cushion to the dropzone is welcome.

Had we picked up 4 points from the 2 difficult games v Mariners and Numb, then perhaps we could have started to look up, but just the 1, although unsurprising is a remnder of our current status.

It would take a PdC style second half of the season to mount a meaningful upward challenge... in 11/12, we lost to Torquay on Boxing Day, then having 37 points, but something like 13 wins from the next 14 propelled us up and away.

I would say it is not going to happen... so how about scraping a PO place.  Well 7th in Div 4 can be a bit variable points wise, but if we take last season's 75 as a benchmark, we'd require something like 12 wins 8 draws and only 3 defeats, or maybe 13 wins 5 draws and 5 defeats.  There's no evidence that this squad is capable of such numbers, especially as Power sides tend to fall away after the window.

So what can we look forward to for the second half?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Tails on Monday, December 24, 2018, 14:14:33
Well I've gone from thinking we'll be definitely in the playoffs, to definitely in a relegation battle and back to maybe the top 7 is possible.

I think the answer is probably midtable. Wellens has had some impressive performances but also some stinkers, although on the whole I think we look "better" than we did under Brown. All depends on what can be done in January but I'll probably stick with midtable, with perhaps a brief flirt with the top 7.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 24, 2018, 14:19:00
I didn't see the game Saturday, but from what I have seen I think we'll make the playoffs. A lot depends on recruitment in the window though, of course. Abedayo needs replacing, he's too inconsistent. It pains me to say that because I thought he looked so good at the start of the season.


Title: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 24, 2018, 15:14:37
adebayo is a reflection of the team perforces, as Tails said, promotion hopefuls one week, relegation performance the next.

get Sid Nelson signed.
get Dave fit and functioning.
get a goalscorer and a winger, and possibly a left back

tough ask, but that's what I feel the minimum is to get in the promotion mix


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 24, 2018, 15:58:05
I didn't see the game Saturday, but from what I have seen I think we'll make the playoffs. A lot depends on recruitment in the window though, of course. Abedayo needs replacing, he's too inconsistent. It pains me to say that because I thought he looked so good at the start of the season.

The fact that Bayo has been average, could work to our advantage.  There could be a player in there, if he was firing we'd have no chance of signing him, but perhaps now we have.

We certainly won't sign anybody of proven quality, unless a Marc Richards style veteran on his last legs.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, December 24, 2018, 16:38:24

So what can we look forward to for the second half?

An intervention from St Jude?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, December 24, 2018, 17:00:40
Duffus was in the house Saturday according to Twitter


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Costanza on Monday, December 24, 2018, 17:28:33
Duffus was in the house Saturday according to Twitter

Cheltenham fan  :)


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, December 26, 2018, 11:59:08
Well I've gone from thinking we'll be definitely in the playoffs, to definitely in a relegation battle and back to maybe the top 7 is possible.

I think the answer is probably midtable. Wellens has had some impressive performances but also some stinkers, although on the whole I think we look "better" than we did under Brown. All depends on what can be done in January but I'll probably stick with midtable, with perhaps a brief flirt with the top 7.
This.

adebayo is a reflection of the team perforces, as Tails said, promotion hopefuls one week, relegation performance the next.

get Sid Nelson signed.
get Dave fit and functioning.
get a goalscorer and a winger, and possibly a left back

tough ask, but that's what I feel the minimum is to get in the promotion mix
I agree with all of that almost word for word.

If Bayo is playing well we look a good solid promotion bet, if hes playing badly the whole team seem to be playing badly and we look mid table at best.

Get Toums fit and he could guide us up the table, Sign Nelson on Jan 1st when his loan expires, or at minimum get him on a longer loan and try and sign him at the end of the season, hes a captain in the making and you can put up with his flaws for the effort and commitment he brings, he may not be good enough for any higher than L1 but I would prefer that to be with us.

Bring in a right winger (McGlashan isn't good enough IMO) a solid attacking LB who can defend (similar to Hussey) and a target man or out and out goalscorer.

Then I do genuinely feel we could be vying for promotion.

Wellens has the players playing more expansive game and being allowed some freedom in attack. The problems seem to stem from us playing the long ball from defence rather than passing, running and crossing which we do well.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, January 10, 2019, 14:11:56
Ten games in for Wellens. If the current ppg of 1.5 stays the same then that would give us 64 or 65 points.

Might be a case of turning 3 or 4 draws into wins and seeing if 70 or 71 will be enough.

I'd be happy if last season's total of 68 could at least be equalled or bettered and it's not an unrealistic target if RW can do better in the final 10 games than PB managed last season.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, January 10, 2019, 15:36:07
Ten games in for Wellens. If the current ppg of 1.5 stays the same then that would give us 64 or 65 points.

Might be a case of turning 3 or 4 draws into wins and seeing if 70 or 71 will be enough.

I'd be happy if last season's total of 68 could at least be equalled or bettered and it's not an unrealistic target if RW can do better in the final 10 games than PB managed last season.

It's very rare for a Town side to do better in the back end of the season than the front end.

Of course it can happen.... just usually to others; such an example would be in 15/16, when we got a useful point at Blades to give us a record of p27 points 35, nicely mid table after an early struggle and the loss of two managers.

Next up we had Barnsley, who were below us by a couple of points, they somewhat undeservedly nicked it right at the end, in the time added for their time wasting, as they seemed happy with a point.

We then had the sort of standard 6 wins 5 draws 7 defeats finish, and the Tykes stormed away doing a HubCap and PO double.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, March 18, 2019, 11:07:16
  So into the home straight, 4 home games left.... Morecambe, Crewe, Yeovil, Notts.  I would suggest, Wellens needs to win at least 2 of those, preferably with a convincing performance. Further a win at Whaddon Road could do a lot of good.

 These are dangerous times for Wellens, he needs to avoid a McMahon late 90's type ending whereby the players were on the beach after getting to 50 points with about 9 to go, and the form  became terrible, watching home games was excruciating and gates fell off to little more than our present 6K and that in Div 2.

 It was this sort of thing which compounded the loathing for him... the true dangers of that era revealed themselves when the whole club nearly went tits up, at the turn of the century, and hasn't managed to get back to that level since.

 It may be a perception thing and everything might be hunky dory, so a respectable end to the seasson with say 4 wins and a couple of draws is required, to give a bit of optimism for next season.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Panda Paws on Monday, March 18, 2019, 11:37:44
As soon as it becomes impossible, rather than unlikely, play the players who are going to be here next year.

No point Woolfenden playing when we could be developing a Conroy/Broadbent pairing for example.




Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, March 18, 2019, 11:57:59
As soon as it becomes impossible, rather than unlikely, play the players who are going to be here next year.

No point Woolfenden playing when we could be developing a Conroy/Broadbent pairing for example.

I think Wellens has been trying to use his squad with an eye to the future, and nothing wrong with that... but still think the basic rule has to be try and win the next game. 

Morecambe isn't going to easy, their current say 5 or 6 game form might be better than ours.   Bentley will know a spoiling game may well reap dividends for them.

With only 4 home games left, and the form still being scratchy, the target has to be try and win with some entertainment.



Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Power to people on Monday, March 18, 2019, 14:21:31
As soon as it becomes impossible, rather than unlikely, play the players who are going to be here next year.

No point Woolfenden playing when we could be developing a Conroy/Broadbent pairing for example.




What is the point of having players who's wages are being paid to not play them ?

We want to end the season with a bit of momentum so winning games will be important, but equally if there is a chance of blooding someone like Bancroft so Wellens can see him in a full game against proper opposition with an eye on next season then lets do it


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, March 18, 2019, 15:51:05
I think we really need a period of stability at the club. It looked like that was going to happen with Flitcroft but then he left towards the end of the season, Brown picked up the reigns, didn't like what Flitcroft had left him so tried to put his stamp on things by only signing midfielders. Then when it didn't work out with him, we have a new man, who has his own new ideas and with Shirtliffe and Jewell coming in it seems we are trying to finally put some foundations down to take the club forwards and up the leagues.

I note already that some of our fans on Twitter are already starting to turn a bit on Wellens but I think we have to give him a chance to instill his own ideas and bring in the players that he'll be able to utilise to get the best out of his chosen way of playing. He is clearly trying to make do with what was in the squad before he came, he's done ok, lets see if he can finish the season strongly (ish) and have a good break in the summer and then crack on with an attack on a league 2 promotion.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Monday, March 18, 2019, 17:32:53
What is the point of having players who's wages are being paid to not play them ?

We want to end the season with a bit of momentum so winning games will be important, but equally if there is a chance of blooding someone like Bancroft so Wellens can see him in a full game against proper opposition with an eye on next season then lets do it

Well seen as we have more players than slots in a match day squad there will always be under contract players picking up a wage whilst not playing.

As this season is now a write off it makes perfect sense to give game time to those who will be continuing to pick up a wage next season.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, March 18, 2019, 18:02:14
As this season is now a write off it makes perfect sense to give game time to those who will be continuing to pick up a wage next season.

There is a flaw in your plan.... we don't have 11 available players contracted for next season. That excludes any youth teamers, as it would be very naughty to put out weakened teams especially against releagtion candidates like Yeovil and Notts, and promotion candidates like Bury.

Still plenty to play for this season...


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Monday, March 18, 2019, 18:33:11
We have ten, so we have a free slot as a showcase role :-)

You'd imagine they have a good idea which of the others are likely to be offered terms and a feel for if they would take them, plus Koiki is likely to fill a Long term loan slot. Maybe a total of 14-15 end up in next years squad from what we have today.  At least most of them are wanted as well, unlike last year where we retained the ones we probably didn't want like Robertson.  Knoyle is probably the biggest risk and a couple of those 14 are not likely ready for the first team yet.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 07:48:42
There is a flaw in your plan.... we don't have 11 available players contracted for next season. That excludes any youth teamers, as it would be very naughty to put out weakened teams especially against releagtion candidates like Yeovil and Notts, and promotion candidates like Bury.

Still plenty to play for this season...

Well, obviously I meant only play players contracted for next season, rather than priorities them.

We have fuck all to play for...


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 08:35:28
Quote from: Panda Paws
As soon as it becomes impossible, rather than unlikely, play the players who are going to be here next year.

No point Woolfenden playing when we could be developing a Conroy/Broadbent pairing for example.


Totally agree there. Nothing to be gained from doing much else. Assuming Ipswich's wage contribution doesn't rely on have time I guess.


Title: Re: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: chrisser on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 09:27:39
We have ten, so we have a free slot as a showcase role :-)


Two of whom (Twine and Mcglashan) are out on loan. He's not likely to play McCormick due to the risk of upsetting contract negotiations with Vigs. Diagouraga didn't take his chance against Stevenage, so that just leaves potential debuts for Curran and McGilp. Unless I'm missing something...


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: chrisser on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 09:33:40
There could be more as I think the contract length hasn't been disclosed for Henry, Robertson, Romanski, Iandolo, Edwards and Pryce


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 11:53:56
Well, obviously I meant only play players contracted for next season, rather than priorities them.

We have fuck all to play for...

Each match is an event in itself, with lots of sub plots and nuances...  for example we've never lost to Morecambe, now given that last season they had some sub 1000 gates, Bentley is doing a pretty amazing job to keep them in Div 4, instinctively you'd like to think we should be above them in the pyramid, but lose and it brings them within 6 points.

Further with a couple of games to go Wellens will have had 27 league games like Brown... his record W7 D11 L9...... so far Wellens record W8 D6 L6.  Wellens will want to add some wins onto that, as if it ends up comparable, some fans will be asking questions about next season. 

A poor end to the season and we're in 83/84 country 17th our lowest ever finish, this needs avoiding as there will be some questioning if the consistent season on season drop since 14/15 under Power has indeed bottomed out, and whather he is the man the Trust should be getting into bed with re the CG.

Then there's the visits of Yeovil and Notts, 2 who may be going into non league.... I'd be sorry to see Yeovil go, an easy trip and we usually do pretty well there.  The trip to Whaddon Road and the possibilty of seeing a win or even a draw, has always had this marked down as massive.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 12:18:37

Then there's the visits of Yeovil and Notts, 2 who may be going into non league.... I'd be sorry to see Yeovil go, an easy trip and we usually do pretty well there.  The trip to Whaddon Road and the possibilty of seeing a win or even a draw, has always had this marked down as massive.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over never visiting Yeovil again.
Two stations and both in the middle of nowhere as is the ground.
Would prefer to see Macclesfield survive.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 12:26:16
I wouldn't lose any sleep over never visiting Yeovil again.
Two stations and both in the middle of nowhere as is the ground.
Would prefer to see Macclesfield survive.

I wouldn't mind if Macc stayed up, but having 2 stations makes Yeovil interesting.... Yeovil Pen Mill, great name. Neighbouring county, if they go it'll fuck the Somerset/Wilts/Glos mini league.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 12:39:13
I wouldn't mind if Macc stayed up, but having 2 stations makes Yeovil interesting.... Yeovil Pen Mill, great name. Neighbouring county, if they go it'll fuck the Somerset/Wilts/Glos mini league.

Rovers could replace Yeovil.
The mini league could expand next season to include neighbours Oxfordshire and Hampshire.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 12:54:43
Rovers could replace Yeovil.
The mini league could expand next season to include neighbours Oxfordshire and Hampshire.

True, regarding Rovers, but they're a bit more Gloucestershire hinterland though.  I don't accept Oxfordhire as a neighbouring county.... Berkshire yes,  although Reading returning to Div 4 is probably a bit distant.  Good point presumably regarding Eastleigh's prospects.... definitely one to look out for.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 29, 2019, 12:01:46
 Well, it's gone pear shaped at the end.  Things have unravelled pretty quickly and probably more so than expected. 

 Dangerous times ahead.... most recognise what Wellens is saying to be corrrect and obvious... like over dependence on loan players highlighted at the start of this thread, and the lack of basic Div 4 battling qualities. 

Wellens further puts the time scale firmly in the Power reign, implied if not stated.  This could be a political move.... he knows Power wants the CG, but will have to get into bed with the Trust, for that to happen. The trust need the fans to put their hands in their pockets, but how many will be prepared to if it seems to supporting Power, while he still takes the club backward?  Or perhaps he's just lost the plot.... incoherent thinking, the equivalent of when he got the red playing for McMahon v Town.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 29, 2019, 12:35:57
Hopefully fans are aware that putting their hand in their pocket is for their own half of the ground, furthermore that now the genie is out the bottle so to speak its vital that the Trust secure 50% rather than giving Power an opportunity to persure 100%.

Those in the trust that are involved in the dealings will have to no doubt get and communicate the legal position about the ownership to cover the case should Power throw a wobbler.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 29, 2019, 12:40:03
In terms of the playing side, yeah it unravelled quickly. I've fluctuated between optimism and dread for next season.  If we got Conroy and Knoyle signed up it would ease my unrest, a sign of intent.

I think the best course is to ignore it all for a month!

I'm glad we have Paul Jewell in to provide an experienced hand. We'll see soon enough if its another season of the same recruitment MO.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Power to people on Monday, April 29, 2019, 12:47:38
In terms of the playing side, yeah it unravelled quickly. I've fluctuated between optimism and dread for next season.  If we got Conroy and Knoyle signed up it would ease my unrest, a sign of intent.

I think the best course is to ignore it all for a month!

I'm glad we have Paul Jewell in to provide an experienced hand. We'll see soon enough if its another season of the same recruitment MO.

I'd like to know what Jewell actually does, you only ever him of him scouting ooopp noorth is he at the club, who deals with contract negotiations ? where is the dividing line between Jewell & Power who does what ?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 29, 2019, 12:52:37
I'd like to know what Jewell actually does, you only ever him of him scouting ooopp noorth is he at the club, who deals with contract negotiations ? where is the dividing line between Jewell & Power who does what ?

I'd guess that Jewell's work is more or less a casual gig... remuneration mostly dependent on finder's fees if we get a saleable asset.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Monday, April 29, 2019, 13:57:44
I think Wellens has done a couple of things:

a) recruited pretty well
b) shown that having a simple plan can get results
c) has, by and large, provided more entertainment
d) begged a whole bunch of questions about durability of his plan - Oldham slumped, so have we
e) as a result, loaded a whole set of Brown style weight on his own shoulders as we go through a summer re-build

I'm still one to have more on the plus side for him, but he'd better squeeze Power's knackers over the summer and get a squad together quickly that can begin to resemble something akin to a promotion team, or face the prospect of being another Power Out poster child for the facebook generation.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 29, 2019, 15:17:52
I think Wellens has done a couple of things:

a) recruited pretty well
b) shown that having a simple plan can get results
c) has, by and large, provided more entertainment
d) begged a whole bunch of questions about durability of his plan - Oldham slumped, so have we
e) as a result, loaded a whole set of Brown style weight on his own shoulders as we go through a summer re-build

I'm still one to have more on the plus side for him, but he'd better squeeze Power's knackers over the summer and get a squad together quickly that can begin to resemble something akin to a promotion team, or face the prospect of being another Power Out poster child for the facebook generation.

I certainly preferred it when he was talking about using a lot of the current squad.... I could see that with a core of what we'll have next season and even some usual Power type recruitment we should be OK to stay in Div 4.

 Further some proper recruitment and we could be looking at competing.  It should be noted that there are 81 teams in the pyramid above us and only 7 who aren't down or in the mix final day.... a decent points gap, mind.

 Now though, there's a big risk... we're going to be totally reliant on Wellens and Jewell getting this right...


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, April 29, 2019, 15:27:12
Now it’s become obvious that quite a few players haven’t the stomach for a fight he has little option but to start again. Brown did no better and your pal Flitcroft landed us with some right old plums.

It’s pretty much the same for most clubs in the basement - any decent players will be sold and the search starts all over again for replacements.

Whether his rhetoric of 80% of the players being binned turns out anywhere near realistic remains to be seen.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Monday, April 29, 2019, 15:37:08
It hurts, I'll give Flitcroft some due.

He boiled it down to a very simple game plan.  He didn't need any ball players, just hit it forward into key areas.  Defenders had no need to worry about doing anything bar defending, same for midfield two.  He then had four up top - the idea being they would get the scraps between them and do enough to win games.

It kind of worked, but, as with the nature of the Roulette game it was based off, not enough, because you are playing with chance.  He bet on having defenders who were basic defenders and four top men who would bank enough goals between them.  His recruitment wasn't quite right so it didn't pay off often enough, in my opinion and his points per game ratio.

What he did manage to do though was the key - a simple game plan the players understand.  If you can do that and have slightly better players overall than most teams, you probably do well.

It was just fuck awful to watch and I hope I never see it again.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, April 29, 2019, 15:46:21
When Flitcroft was manager my point was, and still is, what next?

Sure his brand may well get you into L1 but then what? It’s never going to cut the mustard a league higher. It’s why I always thought he was a complete fraud.

Once the buzz of promotion out of L2 has worn off and you become a bumbling along L1 club, flirting with relegation yet again, what’s the fucking point.

Mansfield fans are saying all the things we did and they’re in the POs at least. And he’s spent a shitload of the Radfords’ money in what probably will turn out to be a bottled promotion bid.



Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Frigby Daser on Monday, April 29, 2019, 15:54:06
The MK v Mansfield game on Saturday is effectively a play off final - just that MK have to win in normal time. I don’t like MK, but I dislike Flitcroft (in a panto villain type of way), so not sure who I want to go up/stay down. The loser will somehow have to pick themselves up again for the play offs, and will probably bomb in the semis.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Panda Paws on Monday, April 29, 2019, 16:26:36
The MK v Mansfield game on Saturday is effectively a play off final - just that MK have to win in normal time. I don’t like MK, but I dislike Flitcroft (in a panto villain type of way), so not sure who I want to go up/stay down. The loser will somehow have to pick themselves up again for the play offs, and will probably bomb in the semis.

Apart from... if Tranmere win Tuesday and Saturday, they'll move to 78 and open it all up. Both MK and Flitcroft could miss out in a glorious twist.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, April 29, 2019, 16:32:59
Apart from... if Tranmere win Tuesday and Saturday, they'll move to 78 and open it all up. Both MK and Flitcroft could miss out in a glorious twist.
Come on tranmere


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Monday, April 29, 2019, 16:40:43
I don't think the approach Flitcroft took is limited to L2 - i you get better players, especially upfront,you can take it up the leagues.  What I do imagine, and maybe we are seeing, is it costs you more - you are going to be telling players to do stuff they think is beneath them, so might need a bit more money in their pockets to loosen their footballing morals.  I mean, nobody develops as a player doing it that way, aside maybe from centre back and centre forward.

Bolton are paying a bit of a price right now for this approach - in the end, to sustain it they had to pay older players a shit tonne of money to come and make them competitive in the Prem.  Once that fell apart, the chickens came home to roost and they racked up over 100m in debt.  But for their owner wiping most of it off, they'd be in the non-leagues building back up by now.

Plus, it hurts the eyes.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 29, 2019, 16:56:00
It hurts, I'll give Flitcroft some due.

It's always good to reconsider views based on evidence....

It been done many times, but Flitcroft came into a very dodgy situation, had to do a rapid rebuild and the danger of getting it wrong, probably non league football.

So, you keep it simple, apply basics.

So to Audrey, his recruitment was not too bad at all.... given no manager gets them all right, but now we're having to get maximum value out of every signing, there's less wriggle room than perhaps previously... all our better gaffers of the past will have a few dodgy signings.

So Flitcroft's ++ would be Knoyle, Preston, if he'd signed, Taylor. Others, like Keshi and Kaiyne, still a bit jury out, although there are some like me who would stick with them next season. Dunne, I'd let go but he's been pretty much bog standard Div 4 journeyman, pretty much what you'd expect. Mullin ws one who most woukd have liked to have stayed  Lancashire was OK ish until fucked by injury and Robertson, the waste of a year stand out stumer.

As regards Div 3 if we get there.... now it's a case of worry about when... top half Div 3 now looks a difficult league for us, in the way that Div 2 used to years ago, and as has been shown this season with 4 down, if you're not in the top half you're in a relegation battle until late on.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 29, 2019, 17:04:53
Apart from... if Tranmere win Tuesday and Saturday, they'll move to 78 and open it all up. Both MK and Flitcroft could miss out in a glorious twist.

The massive game on Tuesday is Oldham at Newport.... win for Newport moves them up into the PO spot.... win for Oldham, means we finish 14th or 15th.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: swindonmaniac on Monday, April 29, 2019, 17:17:34
Apart from... if Tranmere win Tuesday and Saturday, they'll move to 78 and open it all up. Both MK and Flitcroft could miss out in a glorious twist.
That would please me !!!.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 29, 2019, 18:03:21
Wellens correctly points out the problems at the club for the last few years, which have been pretty obvious... now of course there are dangers in his appoach, but also an opportunity. Can he use the coming weeks to make us at least look like a proper football club again?

Sort of thing required... get recruitment done early. Get a structured set of friendlies in place asap. If there is to be a bonding trip like Brown had, early recruitment means you have the players to bond, not like last year's brush up Phil's tan mission.

Have an open day at the CG in the school hols... doesn't have to be all singing/dancing Fitton style... more a meet and greet new players, maybe an open training session get the kids/mums etc having selfies taken etc.   Mix this up with the Trust revealing plans for the CG purchase , and trying to sell some shares... emphasising the joint venture and reassuring fans that we're in this together.

Hold a Q and A forum at the CG, one evening.... ideally Wellens and Power, but I wouldn't expect Power.... maybe Anderson would do, or Morfuni.

All simple stuff, but it's the sort of thing which has led some of us to describe the club as broken, because it doesn't happen.... no links between fans and club.  There's an inherent danger in a broken club... and that's there only being presently 8 clubs between us and non league.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, April 29, 2019, 18:58:23
Wellens correctly points out the problems at the club for the last few years, which have been pretty obvious... now of course there are dangers in his appoach, but also an opportunity. Can he use the coming weeks to make us at least look like a proper football club again?

Sort of thing required... get recruitment done early. Get a structured set of friendlies in place asap. If there is to be a bonding trip like Brown had, early recruitment means you have the players to bond, not like last year's brush up Phil's tan mission.

Have an open day at the CG in the school hols... doesn't have to be all singing/dancing Fitton style... more a meet and greet new players, maybe an open training session get the kids/mums etc having selfies taken etc.   Mix this up with the Trust revealing plans for the CG purchase , and trying to sell some shares... emphasising the joint venture and reassuring fans that we're in this together.


Hold a Q and A forum at the CG, one evening.... ideally Wellens and Power, but I wouldn't expect Power.... maybe Anderson would do, or Morfuni.

All simple stuff, but it's the sort of thing which has led some of us to describe the club as broken, because it doesn't happen.... no links between fans and club.  There's an inherent danger in a broken club... and that's there only being presently 8 clubs between us and non league.

Some interesting points but none of the above will happen. The form of STFC is bottom 4 and that's how its going to finish. A bad start to next season which is very likely do to a last minute loan and freebie signings policy and Wellens will go the way of those before him despite all the fine words and truth he's spoken about the club.As you've pointed out there's not much between us and the bottom over a season, the best we can hope for is that 2 teams will be utterly shite next season to keep us up. anything else will be a miracle.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, April 29, 2019, 19:10:31
Many years ago under Bob Smith pre season they had a game blues v reds. All squad was used and entry to the game was free. Thought it was a great way to introduce new players.
I think they used to do it back in the 50s.
Tagged on to an open day would probably go down well.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: pauld on Monday, April 29, 2019, 20:32:14
Some interesting points but none of the above will happen. The form of STFC is bottom 4 and that's how its going to finish. A bad start to next season which is very likely do to a last minute loan and freebie signings policy and Wellens will go the way of those before him despite all the fine words and truth he's spoken about the club.As you've pointed out there's not much between us and the bottom over a season, the best we can hope for is that 2 teams will be utterly shite next season to keep us up. anything else will be a miracle.

You're working hard to keep that "Yellow troll" tag aren't you?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 21:44:30
Quote from: Reg Smeeton
Quote
Apart from... if Tranmere win Tuesday and Saturday, they'll move to 78 and open it all up. Both MK and Flitcroft could miss out in a glorious twist.
The massive game on Tuesday is Oldham at Newport.... win for Newport moves them up into the PO spot.... win for Oldham, means we finish 14th or 15th.

phew, can still snatch 13th with a win and a bit of luck. nervy days


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 22:04:39
The massive game on Tuesday is Oldham at Newport.... win for Newport moves them up into the PO spot.... win for Oldham, means we finish 14th or 15th.

phew, can still snatch 13th with a win and a bit of luck. nervy days

I'd rather finish 13th than 15th... top half should have been doable.  When we played Newport at the start of the 3 game away run 5 games ago, a good point kept them down below us... since we've got 2 points they've got 13.

Bury up....


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 23:00:38
I don't really care, 13, 14th, 15th it's all shit


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 23:53:05
Champions
Automatic
Play offs
Nothingness
Relegation

8th to 22nd all the same.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 1, 2019, 08:54:39
Champions
Automatic
Play offs
Nothingness
Relegation

8th to 22nd all the same.

Maybe in your world, but the league table is the most reliable metric to judge a season.... and clearly Wellens has thrown his plans and toys out of the pram, because we can't get say an 8th place finish, at least respectable, or a 9th place finish at least matching last season's effort.

So for example Newport who occupied our sort of perch until recently should finish at least top ten even if not making the PO's last day, and therefore including cup exploits will be able to claim their greatest ever season in current form and look forward with some optimism, on the playing side even if off pitch looks threatening.

Further you can see the impact it has on fans through social media, when they consider the obvious worse finish since 83/84 headline.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 10:50:17
 This is farly incendiary stuff from Welllens....

Quote
He said: “I want to change the feeling around this club. At the moment, this club is just a football team, it’s not a football club.

“We’re going to do loads of work in the community next year, in terms of going out to coach local young football teams and things like that.

“I want there to be a connection between the players and the supporters and I don’t think we’ve got that right now.”

I've long argued on here the concept of the broken club... all links between club and fans gone.  Further it's not something solely attributable to Power, but the process has accelerated under his ownership, therefore this is an implied criticism of him, by the manager.

Which begs the question, has Wellens run this by the owner, or does he feel that given our historic shitness atm that he can get away with it  :hmmm:

This is a bit like an alcoholic at first needs to be able to say they have a problem, before they can confront it. 

So this is a first step, an acceptance of the broken club... time and effort shouldn't be wasted in further argument about culpability, but rather ideas from both club and fans as to what we're going to do about it...


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: pauld on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 11:25:06
And it continues on from his "cancer of mediocracy (sic)" rant from last week. Good stuff if he has the backing to turn it round.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 11:30:35
I wonder if this is the result of a positive influence from Clem behind the scenes?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 12:01:40
Or Power’s ‘I’m outta here soon. Say what you like.’

Can’t see how Power could argue against what he’s said, though. It’s plain for all to see.

Fixing it is another matter - probably only attainable through success on the pitch.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 12:04:23
The way I see things at the moment is, we have a solid keeper and an excellent midfielder if Doughty stays. The rest of the team is almost a rebuild. we have no back line, no forwards,no wide men and no money. So its another season of frees and loans. That's been so successful over the recent years that I consider a mid uper mid finish as a result. I don't think Wellens will last that much longer, our form over the last few weeks is relagation fodder. A poor start next season could see him axed by october. Our next manager is already at the club and waiting in the wings.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Exiled Bob on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 12:16:22
.....our form over the last few weeks is relagation fodder.
It's not though, is it? The last few weeks has seen us go unbeaten for 6 games before we lost the last 2. And losing the last 2 is understandable given that the players know they have nothing to play for.

I'd rather be in our position than Notts County's.

I've been impressed with Wellens so far. We'll see over the Summer, with his signings and his team for next season whether he is any good or not. I've more confidence in him than any of our recent managers since Di Canio.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 12:18:52
4/18 points  definitely is relagation form!


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 12:20:53
Or Power’s ‘I’m outta here soon. Say what you like.’

Can’t see how Power could argue against what he’s said, though. It’s plain for all to see.

Fixing it is another matter - probably only attainable through success on the pitch.

It's always easier to break something down tahn build it back up.... and the scism at STFC has been happening for some years now.

It is an accumulation of small things, and similarly will only be restored by rebuilding those small things bit by bit.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Exiled Bob on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 12:28:40
4/18 points  definitely is relagation form!
And 2 wins, 4 draws and 2 defeats isn't. It depends how you choose to spin it......


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 13:12:08
Our recent form although it has faltered in the last 2 games isn't that bad, yes most draws we really should have easily won.
DWWDDDDLL in the last 9 games 11 from 30 points gained but only losing twice.

Since Wellens arrives its been LWWWLDDDLWDWLWWLLDWWDDDDLL thats 9W 9D 8L which over a whole season would give us 72 points, enough to have made the play offs this season.

Phil Browns record in his 31 matches was 10W 11D 11L but we are playing much better attractive football now than under Brown.

TBH most of the draws under Brown we didn't actually look like winning, I would say the exact opposite is true under Wellens, we look like winning all the draws except for our forwards poor finishing.



Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 13:30:19
4/18 points  definitely is relagation form!
if we draw or lose today and then make a bad start next seaon, then our form under wellens would warrent the sack.
Say a start of 2 draws 2 defeats and a win, following on from the above form, would be suffent.
As I said his replacement is already lined up PJ will step straight in.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 13:40:18
Wellens had a decent base to work from.

If, next season, he can replicate the performances of say Bury, Tranmere & M K away across a whole season with his own players then we will do very well.

I don't think many of the current squad will be rolling up for pre season.
With PJ on board it might be case of persuading players to bridge the north -  south divide as the main source of recruitment.

Welllens strikes me as a "live within 30 miles of the club" stickler, but I'm hoping that the regular encounters with Doughty waiting for London bound trains from northern outposts will continue next season.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: pauld on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 13:42:19
if we draw or lose today and then make a bad start next seaon, then our form under wellens would warrent the sack.
But according to your bullshit conspiracy theory you still haven't backed up, that kind of form is actually the plan?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 14:00:16
But according to your bullshit conspiracy theory you still haven't backed up, that kind of form is actually the plan?
WTF


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: pauld on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 14:05:06
WTF

If we get near the playoffs games will be thrown to ensure we stay in div 2
Repeatedly asked you to back this up and I'll ask again.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 14:54:56
Repeatedly asked you to back this up and I'll ask again.

I think he spouts so much shite that he forgets what shite he's spouted.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 14:56:58
I think he spouts so much shite that he forgets what shite he's spouted.

Filed in the drawer labelled 80% Bollocks.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 14:57:43
I think he spouts so much shite that he forgets what shite he's spouted.
Sorry what was the question again?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Berniman on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 16:05:22
How can Wellens warrant the sack when he has had to work with (predominantly) a pile of shit.  The few players he brought in have been positive.  He managed to get a tune out of that pile of shit for a fairly sustained period that tailed off towards the end.

 :huh:


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: pauld on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 17:40:43
I think he spouts so much shite that he forgets what shite he's spouted.
That's the problem with Russian bots, very little storage capacity so can only reference back to the last 2 or 3 troll posts


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 17:51:14
That's the problem with Russian bots, very little storage capacity so can only reference back to the last 2 or 3 troll posts

Lots of commies on this site, does that include them comradski?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: pauld on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 17:54:15
Lots of commies on this site, does that include them comradski?
I know keeping up with things isn't your strong point but surely even you have noticed Russia hasn't been communist for nigh on 30 years now? Putin's more aligned with your side of politics, he's put a lot of money into the populists and far right in Europe and the US


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Red Frog on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 17:57:18
I know keeping up with things isn't your strong point but surely even you have noticed Russia hasn't been communist for nigh on 30 years now? Putin's more aligned with your side of politics, he's put a lot of money into the populists and far right in Europe and the US

Though to be fair, that's only because he knows they sow division and break democracies rather than being able to actually govern anything.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 18:02:09
I know keeping up with things isn't your strong point but surely even you have noticed Russia hasn't been communist for nigh on 30 years now? Putin's more aligned with your side of politics, he's put a lot of money into the populists and far right in Europe and the US
Bollocks


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 18:02:52
Though to be fair, that's only because he knows they sow division and break democracies rather than being able to actually govern anything.
More bollocks.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 22:56:40
There are very few Commies on here but plenty who lean left.  Communism has been proven a complete disaster.  A potentially noble idea doomed to failure as it requires humans to make it work.  It seems to always fall into Dictatorship world.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 23:14:16
There are very few Commies on here but plenty who lean left.  Communism has been proven a complete disaster.  A potentially noble idea doomed to failure as it requires humans to make it work.  It seems to always fall into Dictatorship world.
Left leaning is a commie, the only difference is socialist take a little longer to destroy everything.
Its never worked and it never will.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: StfcRusty on Sunday, May 5, 2019, 08:39:34
Left leaning is a commie, the only difference is socialist take a little longer to destroy everything.
Its never worked and it never will.

Are all politically right-leaning people Nazis then?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: suttonred on Sunday, May 5, 2019, 09:11:11
There needs to be serious progress on 2 of the big 3 next year. Promotion, Training ground, Ground purchase/development, and as the cherry, not get dumped out by strollers 1V in the cups early doors.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: JBZ on Sunday, May 5, 2019, 09:31:39
Like most supporters with realistic expectations, I anticipated a mid table finish. Sadly, next season is likely to be much of the same. 


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DarloSTFC84 on Sunday, May 5, 2019, 10:19:46
Some posts on here need to go in a political thread...

..if only we had one.. :hmmm:


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, May 5, 2019, 10:20:55
Are all politically right-leaning people Nazis then?
My lefty friends tell me, if your not part of the solution your part of the problem. So yes anyone who doesn't vote left commie is a racist Nazi. Glad to clear that up for you.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Berniman on Sunday, May 5, 2019, 15:02:56
Like most supporters with realistic expectations, I anticipated a mid table finish. Sadly, next season is likely to be much of the same. 

And you expect that because of the caliber of squad that we have signed for next season?  Or do you have a crystal ball or a flux capacitor?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: JBZ on Sunday, May 5, 2019, 17:35:07
And you expect that because of the caliber of squad that we have signed for next season?  Or do you have a crystal ball or a flux capacitor?

Unless there is a significant shift in direction, I think that we can expect more of the same. 


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, May 5, 2019, 18:13:33
Unless there is a significant shift in direction, I think that we can expect more of the same. 
They'll be no change in direction unless I can get the Flux Capitor fixed. infact there will be no movement at all.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: JBZ on Sunday, May 5, 2019, 18:23:36
They'll be no change in direction unless I can get the Flux Capitor fixed. infact there will be no movement at all.

My copy of Grays Sports Almanac says that relegation to the conference will happen in the 2022-23 season.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, May 6, 2019, 07:13:26
Power stating the budget for next season will remain at £2m.

So much for the naysayers.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, May 6, 2019, 07:46:57
Power stating the budget for next season will remain at £2m.

So much for the naysayers.
The article in the Adver states our budget will be between £2m and £2.5m apparently, and that is way down on what Flipflop had at his disposal yet he still failed and fled the scene of the crime as soon as the going got a little rough.

I hope we are playing Mansfield next season and that he is not backed financially as heavily by them next season (£5m+ this term) as they finally see he is a failure.

Without Walkers goals this term they would be down where we are in the table, the same goes for Tranmere with Norwood and Bury with Maynard and Agard and Aneke at MKD, 4 average teams at best with a good goalscorer in the side who score 20+ and that is the difference between drawing games and grabbing that winning goal.

Wellens was bemoaning a high scoring striker on Saturday pre game so he agrees we need that for next season and he is obviously right.

If Wellens can get that one (or more) striker who will score 20+ next season mixed in with the rest of the teams goals we will get promoted.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Monday, May 6, 2019, 11:22:25
£5+ at Mansfield? that's Di Canio money, thus proving any idiot  with that budget can't get out the league in the autos


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Monday, May 6, 2019, 11:23:31
The article in the Adver states our budget will be between £2m and £2.5m apparently, and that is way down on what Flipflop had at his disposal yet he still failed and fled the scene of the crime as soon as the going got a little rough.

I hope we are playing Mansfield next season and that he is not backed financially as heavily by them next season (£5m+ this term) as they finally see he is a failure.

Without Walkers goals this term they would be down where we are in the table, the same goes for Tranmere with Norwood and Bury with Maynard and Agard and Aneke at MKD, 4 average teams at best with a good goalscorer in the side who score 20+ and that is the difference between drawing games and grabbing that winning goal.

Wellens was bemoaning a high scoring striker on Saturday pre game so he agrees we need that for next season and he is obviously right.

If Wellens can get that one (or more) striker who will score 20+ next season mixed in with the rest of the teams goals we will get promoted.

What was Flitcrofts budget here?

Where has his Mansfield budget been made public?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Monday, May 6, 2019, 11:24:08
£5+ at Mansfield? that's Di Canio money, thus proving any idiot  with that budget can't get out the league in the autos

Di Canio spent more than a fiver


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Monday, May 6, 2019, 12:47:07
Not sure if the value is public, but the owner has made it public that it's the biggest budget in their history somewhere.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, May 6, 2019, 12:49:58
From memory, PDC had about 4-4.5m. If Flitcroft fails to get them up on 5M (assuming it is 5M), then it's quite damning for him.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Monday, May 6, 2019, 13:08:34
Not sure if the value is public, but the owner has made it public that it's the biggest budget in their history somewhere.

People seem to be able to comment on it quite defiantly, so assume it’s public as is our budget?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Monday, May 6, 2019, 13:55:53
I doubt it is as much as suggested, but the owners have made public statements about it being a top three budget, and has been for three seasons in a row.  They fund it through sponsorship to increase the reported Turnover, which at least means the club isn't saddled with massive debt (although it is around 5m in the red).  Interestingly they file less financial information than Power does for STFC.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, May 6, 2019, 15:01:10
Redford Out!


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: wheretherealredsare on Monday, May 6, 2019, 21:12:12
And he can take Paul Newman with him!
Redford Out!


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 07:49:19


You have now fallen foul of the copy, paste & punctuation police. Now known as the CPPP. Closely aligned to the Stasi type secret organisation. Expect at a minimum some dogs abuse, at worst never seeing your family again.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 09:59:57
My lefty friends tell me, if your not part of the solution your part of the problem. So yes anyone who doesn't vote left commie is a racist Nazi. Glad to clear that up for you.

Thats clearly bollocks.....

Its plainly obvious you don't have friends....


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:01:00
From memory, PDC had about 4-4.5m. If Flitcroft fails to get them up on 5M (assuming it is 5M), then it's quite damning for him.

I would imagine taking account of inflation and the hyper inflation which has infected football probably both figures are broadly similar?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:44:00
What was Flitcrofts budget here?

Where has his Mansfield budget been made public?
According to Power - Flitcrofts budget was top 3 and said to be around £4m to £4.5m in his interviews which he does pre game almost every Saturday.

Mansfields budget is all over their forum and other forums in our league and is apparently common knowledge so it must have been made public and is said to be £6m per season this season.

You could argue that how does the "average fan" know well that appears to come from interviews such as Power does where they spill the beans on budgets, do I trust forums? no, do I trust Power and other managers/chairmen? well I do but many people obviously don't.

Many times these "budgets" are out in the public domain from the mouths of other managers who are jealous of the size of competing managers budgets, Cooper has been good at that in the past when he said his budget this season was not as high as Mansfield or Lincoln, when you see that Doidge is being paid in excess of £10k per week then what the hell are theirs?

Nottm Forest have said that Mansfield are covering Walkers full wages for the term of the loan which last year were in their accounts at £7.5k pw and Danny Rose turned down a move to Peterborough in August because Posh were not willing to match his £5k pw wages.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 11:09:20
As for Mansfield and Flitcroft, an interesting thread here from their fans....

Quote
Caretaker manager for play-offs

https://www.stagsnet.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=35654&sid=d90ab06a6509000f5ff8b113a62540ae

Yet again he has upset the fans of the team he manages, I especially like..

Quote
Keith Hill, John Dempster anybody rather than this negative raspberry.

Usually I would say this is a crazy idea. But the team selection and performance today is a sackable offence alone.





Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: wheretherealredsare on Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 11:37:29
You have now fallen foul of the copy, paste & punctuation police. Now known as the CPPP. Closely aligned to the Stasi type secret organisation. Expect at a minimum some dogs abuse, at worst never seeing your family again.

I claim Diplomatic Impunity :)


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 12:16:47
I claim Diplomatic Impunity :)
It's just been revoked.

(https://www.listenandlearn.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/PunctuationSpelling1.png)


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 11:11:04
The article in the Adver states our budget will be between £2m and £2.5m apparently, and that is way down on what Flipflop had at his disposal yet he still failed and fled the scene of the crime as soon as the going got a little rough.

I hope we are playing Mansfield next season and that he is not backed financially as heavily by them next season (£5m+ this term) as they finally see he is a failure.

Without Walkers goals this term they would be down where we are in the table, the same goes for Tranmere with Norwood and Bury with Maynard and Agard and Aneke at MKD, 4 average teams at best with a good goalscorer in the side who score 20+ and that is the difference between drawing games and grabbing that winning goal.

Wellens was bemoaning a high scoring striker on Saturday pre game so he agrees we need that for next season and he is obviously right.

If Wellens can get that one (or more) striker who will score 20+ next season mixed in with the rest of the teams goals we will get promoted.

You do stick with it.... even if the evidence is against.  So quickly on the budget thing... 17/18 our budget was reckoned about 7th.. when DF left we were 7th so about par.

We've had 3 promotions from Div 4 including 2 titles.... no player has scored 20+ goals let alone 2. Only one player, Rideout has scored 20 in Div 4... we didn't go up.  In fact I can't think of any season in my time where we've had 2, 20+ league goal scorers.

The last time we had an out an and out 20+ man in 15/16, it was sufficient to keep us up... but not when NA returned on loan the following year.

What is required is for what might be termed the front 3, to improve their strike rates.... so Keshi, Kaiyne and a combo of Bayo/Theo got 22 between them... Keshi 4, Kaiyne 6, B/T 12.  If K and K could get up to 8 and 10, whoever is the front man/men say 15/16, an extra dozen goals could do the job, if scored in key games.

Your grabbing key goals thing is valid....  this season had the extra dozen been scored in turning draws to wins... we win the league.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 11:15:21
Paynter & Austin must have got 20 each
Mooney & Parkin couldn’t have been far off


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 11:18:55
You do stick with it.
Yes I do.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 11:30:47
Paynter & Austin must have got 20 each
Mooney & Parkin couldn’t have been far off

They didn't...  goals scored in PO's don't count as regular season but a stand alone thing.

Being close is not the same as doing it.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 11:35:03
You do stick with it.... even if the evidence is against.  So quickly on the budget thing... 17/18 our budget was reckoned about 7th.. when DF left we were 7th so about par.

We've had 3 promotions from Div 4 including 2 titles.... no player has scored 20+ goals let alone 2. Only one player, Rideout has scored 20 in Div 4... we didn't go up.  In fact I can't think of any season in my time where we've had 2, 20+ league goal scorers.

The last time we had an out an and out 20+ man in 15/16, it was sufficient to keep us up... but not when NA returned on loan the following year.

What is required is for what might be termed the front 3, to improve their strike rates.... so Keshi, Kaiyne and a combo of Bayo/Theo got 22 between them... Keshi 4, Kaiyne 6, B/T 12.  If K and K could get up to 8 and 10, whoever is the front man/men say 15/16, an extra dozen goals could do the job, if scored in key games.

Your grabbing key goals thing is valid....  this season had the extra dozen been scored in turning draws to wins... we win the league.
So even when the manager...you know...the one who picks the players says "we need a 20 goal striker", you as a fan say "no we don't"? :hmmm:


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 11:43:03
They didn't...  goals scored in PO's don't count as regular season but a stand alone thing.

Being close is not the same as doing it.

Whilst you are technically correct with your statement of two players scoring 20+

Paynter got 26 & Austin got 20
Parkin got 20 & Mooney got 19

Probably as close as you can get without going over 20

Debatable whether you can / should include Austin play off goal.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 11:52:33
So even when the manager...you know...the one who picks the players says "we need a 20 goal striker", you as a fan say "no we don't"? :hmmm:

I take it to mean we need decent front man who'll score you some goals, as well as the link play.   You only need to look at  85/86, pissed the league with a record points haul... front man Colin Gordon got 16, 4 of which were pens.

Everybody wants one of these... right through from CL sides like Spurs, down to us.  An established player is top end in terms of value, and that includes any non league or Div 4 standard... so someone like Stockley went for close on a mill.

Not an option for us... so it will be a Richards style veteran or a punt... and then hope to get lucky. 


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 11:56:21
Whilst you are technically correct with your statement of two players scoring 20+

Paynter got 26 & Austin got 20
Parkin got 20 & Mooney got 19

Probably as close as you can get without going over 20

Debatable whether you can / should include Austin play off goal.

You include PO goals in PO stats... not in regulation league stats.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 11:57:27
I take it to mean we need decent front man who'll score you some goals, as well as the link play.    
But thats not what HE said in the interview, Wellens stated he wants a 20 goals a season striker and lamented that we don't have one. He also said that most sides who do well have at least one, yet you still say we don't ever need one.

Of course teams can do well without one, thats obvious, but what he and I am saying is that we would be far better off in the league if we had one.

You are saying that you don't want a striker who can hit 20 goals a season? then you must want us to fail all the time?



Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 11:58:34
I take it to mean we need decent front man who'll score you some goals, as well as the link play.   You only need to look at  85/86, pissed the league with a record points haul... front man Colin Gordon got 16, 4 of which were pens.

Everybody wants one of these... right through from CL sides like Spurs, down to us.  An established player is top end in terms of value, and that includes any non league or Div 4 standard... so someone like Stockley went for close on a mill.

Not an option for us... so it will be a Richards style veteran or a punt... and then hope to get lucky. 
But how is that any different for any other basement club. Stockley, Doidge, Norwood all fall into the ‘get lucky’ category.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 12:01:47
But how is that any different for any other basement club. Stockley, Doidge, Norwood all fall into the ‘get lucky’ category.
Exactly, and every side in this division that has a striker who has scored over 15 goals has ended up either promoted or are in the play offs.



Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 12:05:24
Nobody expects Wellens to be able to buy a 20 goal a season striker - even Lincoln who bought Akinde and paid big wages were hardly rewarded with his goal return (take out the pens).

So, yes, it will be luck if we get one - ditto the other 23 clubs.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 12:10:19
Nobody expects Wellens to be able to buy a 20 goal a season striker - even Lincoln who bought Akinde and paid big wages were hardly rewarded with his goal return (take out the pens).

So, yes, it will be luck if we get one - ditto the other 23 clubs.
Indeed, every club wants a striker who can grab 15 to 20 or more goals a season.

Its not rocket science to realise that a striker who can bag that many will ease the burden on the rest of the team.

Mansfield got a good one in Walker on loan, decent youngsters are out there if they themselves want to further themselves by dropping a few divisions.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 12:11:29
I guess 'luck' (or good scouting) comes into it as we are certainly not able to blow budget on a proven striker (unless a Richards type). Well, I'd be surprised anyway.

But we certainly need one that can score no matter how it comes about.

Personally I'd like to see us get our target(s) nice and early, and one of the type I'd go for is a lower league 'gamble' rather than someone who has been around the block not scoring much. Can we afford such a luxury in a small squad though?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 12:19:22
I guess 'luck' (or good scouting) comes into it as we are certainly not able to blow budget on a proven striker (unless a Richards type). Well, I'd be surprised anyway.

But we certainly need one that can score no matter how it comes about.

Personally I'd like to see us get our target(s) nice and early, and one of the type I'd go for is a lower league 'gamble' rather than someone who has been around the block not scoring much. Can we afford such a luxury in a small squad though?

Someone like Norwood is interesting.... 28 years old, this is is his first league season.... moved from FGR to Tranny... 

I still think we need to go for numbers rather than rely on the punt coming off as the odds are against.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 12:22:11
Someone like Norwood is interesting.... 28 years old, this is is his first league season.... moved from FGR to Tranny... 
It may be his first full league season but in the Conference he has bagged 20, 14, 19, 19 and a 15 in the last few seasons so not a massive risk as hes obviously a proven scorer and has improved with better players around him.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 12:30:43
It may be his first full league season but in the Conference he has bagged 20, 14, 19, 19 and a 15 in the last few seasons so not a massive risk as hes obviously a proven scorer and has improved with better players around him.

Steady rather than  steller numbers.... the likes of Vardy, did 30 odd in just over 30 games, which is why Leicester took him.

So presumably why league clubs were unwilling to take a punt...


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 12:35:00
There was lower league clamour for Ricky Miller last season - or the one before - another failure.

Posh seem to be able to spot a striker on a regular basis.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 12:35:29
Steady rather than  steller numbers.... the likes of Vardy, did 30 odd in just over 30 games, which is why Leicester took him.

So presumably why league clubs were unwilling to take a punt...
Steady, absolutely, which is why he went to Tranmere rather than a team higher up the ladder.

Vardy was well known as a high scorer when at Halifax and Fleetwood, he had scouts of almost every club after him, we even put in a bid to sign him when PdC was in charge.

Which makes me wonder why teams have not taken a punt on Danny Rowe of Fylde yet.

169 goals in 4 seasons, 26 goals this season with just 3 of them being penalties.

I can only think that at 30 he is considered too old by many clubs.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 13:52:58
I know nothing about Rowe, not that it means a lot.  However, I think we have to be realistic, I know for some that is difficult, but I just don't see Power sanctioning the signing of a proper Div 4 style 20+ goal man.

Think back to Wise/Poyet... They wanted Rickie Lambert after he'd done a 20+ Div 4 goal season in 06 at Dale.... we couldn't afford it, even when we were spending money we didn't have... he went to Rovers for £200K.... Wise and Poyet didn't hang about for long.

If Wellens thinks Power is going to back his wish list, then he's not going to be around for long either.

Being realistic means looking at how to get more goals out of Kaiyne and Keshi.... Theo would be semi realistic, not that he's prolific, but does put in a shift.  Only semi because he'll no doubt be looking for a better deal than here, so we would be a fall back if nothing else happens.

When I talk of numbers the sort of thing in mind is the 06/07 season.  We had over the season 6 what you might call front men.... none particularly prolific, but they scored 33 between them.  In the early part fo the season, it was Roberts and Peacock who both finished on 10, Royce Brownlie chipped in a couple, and Lukas was coming through from the youths and got 5 important goals. When Sturrock came in Blair got 3 for him and then Barry Corr at deadline a further 3. Enough to paraphrase Power "limp over the line"


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 14:03:59
Shearer and White 89/90 - 21 & 20  (probably just shy of 20 if you take the play off games against Blackburn out, think it is 20 & 18.  Interestingly, the swindon-town-fc.co.uk site includes play off games in the league stats.  Either way we got promoted with two near 20 league goal a season strikers in the team.

Think if we add the two DV listed, the evidence shows having two at around 20 creates a promotion hunting team at worst.  Who'd have thunk it?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 14:06:04
I know nothing about Rowe, not that it means a lot.  However, I think we have to be realistic, I know for some that is difficult, but I just don't see Power sanctioning the signing of a proper Div 4 style 20+ goal man.

Think back to Wise/Poyet... They wanted Rickie Lambert after he'd done a 20+ Div 4 goal season in 06 at Dale.... we couldn't afford it, even when we were spending money we didn't have... he went to Rovers for £200K.... Wise and Poyet didn't hang about for long.

If Wellens thinks Power is going to back his wish list, then he's not going to be around for long either.

Being realistic means looking at how to get more goals out of Kaiyne and Keshi.... Theo would be semi realistic, not that he's prolific, but does put in a shift.  Only semi because he'll no doubt be looking for a better deal than here, so we would be a fall back if nothing else happens.

Once again the myth that Power doesn't spend on players rather ignoring the £350,000 spent on Woolery, I cannot imagine Anderson came for nothing etc etc.

What did we pay Liverpool for LV? I have seen £400k suggested, that cannot be right?



Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 14:09:43
I still don't believe that 350k figure, no real reason, just find it somewhat unlikely.

<awaits account evidence to contrary>


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 14:16:46
It was North of 150k - FGR announced the number they had been outbid on as I remember it.  The BBC reported the 350k number.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 14:18:31
Once again the myth that Power doesn't spend on players rather ignoring the £350,000 spent on Woolery, I cannot imagine Anderson came for nothing etc etc.

What did we pay Liverpool for LV? I have seen £400k suggested, that cannot be right?

We've done this so many times... these figures are always dependent on outcomes... further 350 in today's money isn't 350 13 years ago.  Kaiyne came having played 20 odd league games and scored 2 goals... a player like a Stockley, who scored near on 20 for a couple of seasons with Exeter went for 750K that's the sort of figure for proven... and needs to be reflected in wages.

THink back to Ritchie... we'd turned down a mill for him in the summer, and then sold for 400K... no doubt much of the mill was on outcomes, but when we sold we just needed cash up front not coming over the horizon.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 14:22:31
I could be wrong, but wasn't the LV one structured a bit like the Loungo one - we essentially pay the fee if we sell for more than the fee?

Anderson was quoted as six figures at the time, I'd imagine not much into that realm though.  The FGR Chairman outed us on the Woolery one, if I remember correctly.  Some of that no doubt would be to placate his own fans a little byt pointing out how crazy it was to compete.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 14:24:08
Shearer and White 89/90 - 21 & 20  (probably just shy of 20 if you take the play off games against Blackburn out, think it is 20 & 18.  Interestingly, the swindon-town-fc.co.uk site includes play off games in the league stats.  Either way we got promoted with two near 20 league goal a season strikers in the team.

Think if we add the two DV listed, the evidence shows having two at around 20 creates a promotion hunting team at worst.  Who'd have thunk it?

RIchsrd B is free to do as he pleases, but PO's are seen as stand alone comps, a bit like cups.  It's no good saying that because 2 players nearly scored 20+... that 2 players did score 20+.  Perhaps you're being infected by the Trump virus.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 14:26:33
Regardless, it shows Power can convince players to come here when he thinks it is the right thing to do - potential profit for him.  What he hasn't done is spend transfer fee's on anything else (not that many clubs down here do).  Last summer we got Daigouraga and Doughty to come down here - suggests we can fund signings.  They were both decent additions, the problem was Brown had also signed another 3 or 4 central midfielders before them and spunked the remainder of his budget on those two.  Now, if Wellens can convince Power to invest in those types of players but in the positions we need, that might be better!


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 14:31:24
RIchsrd B is free to do as he pleases, but PO's are seen as stand alone comps, a bit like cups.  It's no good saying that because 2 players nearly scored 20+... that 2 players did score 20+.  Perhaps you're being infected by the Trump virus.

Umm, I didn't claim they did score 20 in the league - I said, and you quoted, that having two players around 20 creates a promotion hunting team.  I dug for those two because I remembered their total goals for the season both being close to 30.  We also had McLoughlin in double figure over the entire season as well.

It's pretty easy to summise that having goalscorers increases your chances of success.  It doesn't guarantee it though - you need to be secure at the other end as well.  Didn't Clive Allen bag 49 in a season for Spurs once without winning much, thanks to Coventry?  But, having goals in a team is key - if you have one or two players who have the knack of scoring, you are off to a good start.  The top 7 teams show that this year.  Of course you can get by without a 20 goal person, but it is harder - you need a mean defence and/or a load of players getting to 10.  We don't have them, we won't have them, so getting a 20 plus player would be a benefit for the here and now.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 14:46:25
Regardless, it shows Power can convince players to come here when he thinks it is the right thing to do - potential profit for him.  What he hasn't done is spend transfer fee's on anything else (not that many clubs down here do).  Last summer we got Daigouraga and Doughty to come down here - suggests we can fund signings.  They were both decent additions, the problem was Brown had also signed another 3 or 4 central midfielders before them and spunked the remainder of his budget on those two.  Now, if Wellens can convince Power to invest in those types of players but in the positions we need, that might be better!

Think you're way out here.... it's a competitive market, agents know which clubs are prepared to pay a premium to get what they want. Within that market will be a few odd players like a Doughty, who perhaps isn't so bothered by money, if a club is a better fit into life style, relocation etc.   Matty Taylor probably came as we were near his home, if say Carlisle had wanted him they have had to pay the premium.

Preston last season a classic example.... sort of defender Wellens says he likes stick your head in etc, was always going to Mansfield as they pay more.

What we usually get around this time... is the couple of unrealistic "marquee" signings rumour  Thought Longstaff might have been the first but it's his bro.

A classic was Tom Bradshaw, has scored a few for the other STFC, we were so say intersted and went to WAlsall, has subsequently made 1.5 mill on the transfer market.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 14:59:42
It's pretty easy to summise that having goalscorers increases your chances of success. 

That's obvious and not the point at issue... which is what is realistic in our present state.

For me, I don't see Power sanctioning the acquisition of the 2 20+ Div 4 proven golascorers that PV would like or even the one that RW says he wants.

Therefore realistically we have to look at other ways of achieving success... hence my raising 06/07 where we had 2 10 goal forwards, and other bodies at vatrious times who chipped in, and was enough to get us up.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: suttonred on Thursday, May 9, 2019, 20:34:35
Once again the myth that Power doesn't spend on players rather ignoring the £350,000 spent on Woolery, I cannot imagine Anderson came for nothing etc etc.

What did we pay Liverpool for LV? I have seen £400k suggested, that cannot be right?



I was told at the time it was circa 50k + add ons and a sell on. Total expected was around 400k,


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, May 10, 2019, 02:25:00
I know nothing about Rowe, not that it means a lot.  However, I think we have to be realistic, I know for some that is difficult, but I just don't see Power sanctioning the signing of a proper Div 4 style 20+ goal man.

Think back to Wise/Poyet... They wanted Rickie Lambert after he'd done a 20+ Div 4 goal season in 06 at Dale.... we couldn't afford it, even when we were spending money we didn't have... he went to Rovers for £200K.... Wise and Poyet didn't hang about for long.

If Wellens thinks Power is going to back his wish list, then he's not going to be around for long either.

Being realistic means looking at how to get more goals out of Kaiyne and Keshi.... Theo would be semi realistic, not that he's prolific, but does put in a shift.  Only semi because he'll no doubt be looking for a better deal than here, so we would be a fall back if nothing else happens.

When I talk of numbers the sort of thing in mind is the 06/07 season.  We had over the season 6 what you might call front men.... none particularly prolific, but they scored 33 between them.  In the early part fo the season, it was Roberts and Peacock who both finished on 10, Royce Brownlie chipped in a couple, and Lukas was coming through from the youths and got 5 important goals. When Sturrock came in Blair got 3 for him and then Barry Corr at deadline a further 3. Enough to paraphrase Power "limp over the line"

Wasn’t the whole Ricky lambert thing just tails on a wind up?


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 10, 2019, 09:19:02
Wasn’t the whole Ricky lambert thing just tails on a wind up?

Entirely possible, if so a good one, At the time,  having recruited Wise and Poyet, it seemed within the realms of likelihood, that we might spend 200K on a Div 4 journeyman from Rochdale, who went to Rovers.


Title: Re: How do you think we are shaping up?
Post by: DV Canio on Friday, May 10, 2019, 10:11:05
The Rickie Lambert link was indeed total horse shit.