Thetownend.com

Well the transfer window has shut (apart from freebies) so how do we all think we are shaping up?

We are at times playing some great passing and running football as good as any we have seen in years, mixed with some long balls too to mix it up a bit.

We are getting a lot of late goals and never seem to give up, even a couple of goals down (except for Lincoln away who bullied us).

I am optimistic for a decent season even though it is still early, the signs are there of making genuine progress on the pitch.

I was looking at the start made this season under PB compared with the Championship winning sides in this division under PdC and Macari, also added Flipflop last season by way of comparison.

PB - W3 D3 L1 GF12 GA12 - 12 points - 7th place
h 3-2 w
a 1-4 l
h 3-2 w
a 2-2 d
a 1-1 d
h 1-1 d
a 1-0 w

PdC - W3 D0 L4 GF10 GA8 - 9 points - 13th place
h 3-0 w
a 0-1 l
a 0-1 l
h 1-2 l
a 1-2 l
h 3-2 w
h 2-0 w

Macari - W2 D1 L4 F6 A13 - 7 points - 20th place
h 0-1 l
a 1-4 l
h 2-1 w
a 0-0 d
h 3-2 w
a 0-3 l
a 0-2 l

Flipflop - W3 D1 L3 F8 A10 - 10 points 14th place
a 2-1 w
h 1-1 d
a 1-0 w
h 0-3 l
h 1-4 l
a 3-0 w
a 0-1 l

A fairly solid start and long may it continue.

Agree with the better football this season, and probably most enjoyable since Wembley.

Was about this stage we went on a winning streak under Macari after that poor start so anything that mirrors that is more than acceptable.

Current squad shows some really good play at times, if we can get a settled 11 without suspensions we just might be surprised.
Look forward to going at the moment and long may that continue  :pint:

I look at our fixtures and think we should be winning all of them! Still reckon we’ll be top come October.

Nelson and Wolfie look so much more solid - bit worried about Conroy fully recovering his pre injury form atm.

Finally get Dave fit and firing, get Woolery up front with Adebayo and we’re looking well set.

Great start. Kudos to Brown and the players.

Interesting that penalties and Red cards have played a big part in our season so far!

The 2 reds at Crawley cost us 2 points but the Tranmere red probably gained us 3.

From what I have seen it’s been quite enjoyable and the effort is certainly there. Cut out the stupid challenges and I think we’ll be there or thereabouts come the season’s end. Glad PB has sorted out the defence, Nelson and Wolf seem to be ideal for league 2 and we have goals throughout the team. And we still have Woolery to come into the side, I wonder how PB will utilise him?

I seem to remember last season, about two games in taking a stab and saying we looked good for play offs.  I still think we probably should have made them, but we had a couple of really bad wobbles and Flitcroft vanished up his own tactical genius arse at times.

I am not a fan of Brown, so remain cautious this season, despite potentially better signs.  Again, I think we'll make the play offs, based on what I have seen so far.  We are not amazing, there are obvious weaknesses, but, on the flip side, very little of what we have played has offered any reason why we shouldn't still make the play offs.  Lincoln were the only team who I'd be confident of finishing above us, with Franchise being the other team who I think will get to the Play Offs simply because they look tough to beat.

The midfield and Adebayo are stand outs for me, better than this league.  Keeper seems to have sorted itself.  Will be interesting to see how Richards goes for another full season at his age, and whether Woollery can fit in.  The defence shows signs of improving, the worry si Lancashire seems to have a broken body, Conroy might struggle to stay fit and Taylor may be playing his last season as a pro.

Reg will probably say something about the evidence suggesting we'll be fighting for our league survival by December, but the basic stats suggest Play Offs as well.  If all we did all season is repeat the results of the first 7 games, then play offs would be our home.

 Still too early to make a judgement....  during the pre season, the problems at the back and up top were highlighted, and as anticipated they've been solved with some loan kids.

 It's asking an awful lot for these lads essentially here for experience to carry the burden of getting us back to Div 3.  It may be that they'll get recalled in Jan, leaving us back to square 1.

Woolfenden is the only loanee likely to be recalled by the parent club for any reason other than injury or us treating them badly.

Most of our key players are just that, our players.

Nelson, Alzate & Adebayo are not close enough to their first teams currently, the latter two highly unlikely of being recalled to play.

In the event any of them did return in January, evidence suggests we'd replace them, especially if we are in the hunt, which the data suggests we probably will be.

One of our best teams in the past 30 years was riddled with loanees.

I've enjoyed the games and its certainly been very entertaining.

I'm still none the wiser as to where we'll finish though. It feels a better squad than I thought, then again we have seen some weaknesses too. Gut feel? Early on I thought 12th or lower, but I think we have a shot at the playoffs. I do still think the autos are beyond us though.

Loan recalls can happen for a number of reasons.... think Doughty and Furlong, yes they were sort of replaced but not by what we needed. I assume you mean the Cooper side?   Yes had a load of loan players.... failed to get us up.  Presumably that is what you think we are trying to do?

For me... relying on loan kids in key positions isn't a particularly reliable template for getting promoted.  OK it's possible that we may be able to cover the centre halves to some extent, depending on Lancashire and Conroy's fitness, but we haven't really got cover for Elijah....

You can be dismissive about just about any category of players. ‘loan kids’, ‘lower league journeymen’, ‘old timers’ etc etc... call each of them what you like.

If there is a ‘particularly reliable template for getting promoted’, with the possible exception of throwing wads of cash around, I’m not aware of it.

Correct, we didn’t get promoted in 2015. But we finished 4th in a higher division. Further to which, that team was an extremely young one, which may have been detrimental in the presssure of the playoffs. This one, in addition to a smattering of ‘loan kids’ contained 3 x 35+ year olds on Saturday, and therefore appears to have a more sensible balance.

Woolery should soon be fit, and will offer ‘cover for Elijah’.

If you really think that the team will fail, have the balls to say so, rather than cowering behind the ‘too early to comment’ excuse. I think that we’ve improved significantly since the early games, most notably at the back (gone from conceding 8 in the first 3 to 1 in the last 3), and I think we are set for a serious promotion push.

He’s probably picking the splinters out of his arse from sitting on the fence so often as opposed to sitting in the bench but will get round to answering you when he has carefully disected all of his previous and other posts pertaining to yours to carefully craft a nondescript reply bring you back to square one.

Without actually knowing, I’d imagine every club in L2 has a smattering of young loan players - the same as us.

We have great strength in depth in midfield. If Conroy gets up to speed we now seem OK for CB. Up front is the only worry if (when) Adebayo gets injured.

Keepers are ridiculously good for this level.

This is another good point.

In 11/12 we were leaking goals. Conceding 3 at home to Hereford was the final straw, so di Canio, despite probably having money on tap, loaned in a ‘young kid’ without a first team appearance to his name.

In his opening 19 home league games, Wes conceded a total of 1 goal.

Using the loan market is hardly a recipe for failure. It’s common sense.

It's likely but there are many risks involved....

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2018/sep/06/football-league-loan-deals

I would say that ideally you want the core/spine of the side to be your own players and then the loans to add a bit of froth on the top, or plug an obvious gap, probably at full back or wing.

But PdC then used the  money to give Wes a 2 and a half year deal and Palace an undisclosed fee, after the 3 month loan deal expired.

Like others, I am enjoying the football after years of pointless and risky keepball and last year's anti-football where the objective seemed to be to kick the ball as far and as high as possible.  In fact I had feared the clean sheet mentality Brown had trailed last year might not be all that watchable.  You certainly couldn't blame Brown for failing to deliver clean sheets with last year's comedy caper Keepers.   Now we have two "first choice" keepers in Vigs and McCormick, an abundance of combinations to set up in midfield and Adebayo rather than Norris up front.  Really, what is not to like?  

 :hmmm: Well just possibly the defence which doesn't reassure in terms of depth and where the experience available doesn't really adequately complement the youthful promise.  That doesn't shout "automatic" at me for sure but Nelson and Woolfenden are decent young additions and Taylor on the fringes is certainly a motivator.

Core/Spine - You mean like having Adebayo on the bench recently, or Woolfenden having only started 1 league game, or Alzate being swapped out at times?  Didn't you also suggest he was probably not going to be much of a force for us anyway, given he'd got Leyton Orient relegated several divisions in one month or something like that?  They are either important, or not important, not sure which you think.

The question is how are we shaping up, and using previous years as a comparison, one of which is last year.  Evidence, in the form of data, is so far suggesting quite well.

Yes, I think a season similar to the Cooper one would be good.  I'd hope we could surpass the conclusion, but I am not sure.  On what I have seen so far, not making the play offs would be a failure, and yes, Brown should be concerned about his job if that did come to pass.  The available evidence suggests otherwise, so far.  We are in good form, we have got some tough results, we have improved in some areas of weakness, we are not the best club in the division, we have some weaknesses that could still hamper us and we might have to replace some loans if the worst happens, but we probably would do that based on previous transfer windows.

That doesn’t change the point that signing a ‘young kid’ on loan, and having faith in him, was a very successful move. If we hadn’t done so, we would never have signed him permanently.

What I said about Alzate is he is a talent, but now needs to work on the application of that talent.  This is a difficult job in his position, you only need to see how the England side can't find a quality playmaker. However it's not the midfield which could be a problem.

You and others may be happy with loan kids in key positions and it is what it is, but I'd have rather seen some experience in there.  I've pointed out that it was to be expected that PB would get in a couple of loan kids, as he waited to see how Lancashire and Conroy would rock up, but had hoped we might get another target man type.

Of course, judicious use of the loan system can be advantageous.  For instance Lou Macari after a dodgy start 85/86 needed a LB, and so got in Nicky Coleman from Millwall, he took a good pen.  Lou tried to sign him to no avail, but he was our only loan that record Div 4 season.

You don’t need me to tell you that times have changed somewhat over the last 33 years. For parts of the 80s, clubs were only allowed to loan keepers.

What stands out there for me and it may just be coincidence but the difference between the League winning/Promoted seasons and the DF season is strikingly obvious...Home form. Even on the Macari and PdC most their points in those early games came from Home tie wins.

Not been to a game in over 5 years now, so not sure how valid my opinion will be...

Better squad in my opinion. We’ve had various injuries and suspensions already but at no point has players going out / coming in effected the quality of our starting XI.

Almost like England over the summer there has been a clear shift in attitude towards a more determined, gutsy attitude with increased application.

The keeper situation is so much better. A position so underrated in how important it is.
Defence still looks a bit shakey but the two loans have showed promise.
Midfield looks decent
Think Adebayo is a talent and will get us 15 goals. Not sure about our depth up top. Not sure Richards will still be up to it. Despite signing a year ago I still don’t feel we know much / enough about Woolrey. Stealing a ‘soundbite’ but he could be like a new signing.

Think it’ll be a top 8 finish.



Also, to an extent I see Regs point about having loan players being key members of the squad as it’s only a short term fix (unless we actually sign them)
I’d much rather have our own players so we don’t have to continually fill gaps.

However, now a days with almost all footballers on a 1 or 2 year deals the days of ‘keeping a squad together’ is an archaic, redundant concept.

When will you come back DV?

Depending on circumstances one of the 4 below options

1. Never
2. When we show a bit of ambition*
3. When I’m mega rich and buy the club
4. If my son wants to go


* don’t want to derail the thread but will touch upon option 2.
Won’t say much about Power (and in truth I don’t have much to say about him anyway) we’ve for various reasons turned into one of those clubs who just make up the numbers. Not good to enough to progress up the leagues, not bad enough to slide down them.
As a football fan I can’t think of anything worse than supporting a middle of the road nothing team. For example Oldham, until last season basically made up the numbers in L1 for about 20 years with one play off finish in 03 (I think) such a boring, pointless existence.

Loans started in the early 70's our first being Paull Walker from Wolves he got 2 starts and 3 sub appearances. Right from the off a manager could get in a decent loan or a shit loan, which still holds true today. Over the 45 years of their use, far more have been miss than hit.

You mention PdC and Wes, however he did sign  a further 9..... including some right stumers, Daniel Boateng, Jonathan Tehoue, Ahmed Abdulla, Christian Montano, Ronan Murray.... others like Jake Jervis and Liam Ridehalgh were semi OK, and I think we'd have all been happy to have signed John Bostock and Lee Holmes permanently.

Excellent view on how we are shaping up, DV

I accept that, in the real world, there are many better ways to spend a Saturday afternoon than at the County Ground.

However, even if we are showing no real ambition as a club, you have noted that there is a more determined, gutsy attitude with increased application. And that there is some talent.

Try coming along.

For all the variable quality and frequency of PDC's signings, the three points certainly used to come in on time.

I thought we were going to try and sign Adebayo on a perm in January a la Anderson.

Be a bit of a coup, that. Sometime down the line he’s going to make big bucks.

We've always been an essentially Div 3 side, with the occasional decent spell to get up to Div 2, or some sort of cup run to raise the profile.  That goes back to 1920 and the formation of Div 3.  What we want to avoid is getting stuck in Div 4,  or worse.... Power inherited a Div 3 club, and needs to get uis back there asap.

It was mentioned.... can't see it. These days a Prem club probably wouldn't even start to talk for less than a mill.

Keshi was a bit different, as he didn't really look much good, just potential, which remains the case. Bayo does look a player.

Its the difference between a customer and a fan I think.

I know we're shit and will always be shit but I've been going long enough that I have an affection that will never fade. It's over an hour drive for me now but I still do most home games. I honestly can't think of many better ways to spend my Saturdays than with my mates watching footy to be honest.

As for shaping up, I think we'll be okay. Got a good chance of going up I feel, but it's too early to really tell.

We also had Chris Ramsey in the side and Dave Bamber and although they had been signed on perms by Macari both had previously been loan signings the season before.

I agree you can't rely totally on loan players in key positions but when you have talent available then why not use it? like every other club in this division and the one above.

If a good players appears for loan that will improve us then take him, we would be silly to ignore that.

Having a higher reputation than many in this league means we can maybe attracts a better quality loan than say Newport, Crawley, Yeovil or Carlisle.

Yes in an ideal world there would be no loans and all signings would be perm signings but then many young talented footballers would be sat in Premier League U23 sides never bettering themselves only to be released when they hit 24.

I think in Alzate, Nelson, Woolfenden and Adebayo we have 4 players that would walk into any side in this division.

You cannot say that about Flipflops 7 loanees - Hussey (good attcking awful defending), Smith (moments of good many of bad), Gordon (fast and petulant with no end product), Eslnik (started well went to pot when he got an injury), Banks (started well got worse), Anderson (showed promise so was bought), Menayese (nieve at times).

I would take even one Alzate over all those TBH.

Good man...

I think we're still not 'clicking'. There's some very good passages of play but not enough flow overall with attacks often quite not panning out as they could.

The table's still looking decent for us, though. If we do start clicking then we could be in for a very good season.

Again it's too early to tell... Timi looked a talent, but was ground down by the physicality. We're about 5 weeks into the season, the weather is decent, pitches good.

The aim for Alzate will be to show he has the required physicality and mental application for the slog.

Pretty well.  Only seen us vs Macclesfield, Tranmere and Franchise.  Sounds like Woolfenden has improved our defence.  I think we'll make the play-offs barring injuries.  On paper Lincoln, Franchise, Mansfield, Forest Green, Exeter and Notts County might have stronger first XIs/squads.  Hopefully Toumani will live up to his reputation.  The big plus is that it's so much more enjoyable than last season.  Brown has done well with the signings.  Watching players like Alzate, Doughty and Adebayo is joyful and worth the entrance fee.  We should be grateful to Mansfield for taking Flitcroft.    

Not got an issue with quality. Hell, I did 42 games in the Iffy relegation season. That team was dross but for the most part at least they tried. I can take being beaten by better teams.

It was the Wilson/Hart relegation season that destroyed me as a fan. That team was decent but the attitude was all wrong.
When we finally got rid of Wilson (too late imo) we needed a managed to galvanise the players & make them realise they were in a proper fight.

We appointed Paul fucking Hart, quite literally one of the worst managers of all time the exact opposite of what we needed.

I still can’t understand why we did that. What it was about Hart that appealed to those in charge. Again, quite literally anyone else in the entire universe would have been a better choice.

Hart had about a dozen games, he had I think the previous season kept Palace up from a similar sitution might have got a few more game to do it... so there was a certain logic.

At Palace he managed 3 wins in 14 games.
That shit wouldn’t have kept us up.

I tend not to dwell on football past. Even those games during the 3 day week with crowds under 2000 and various seasons of general shite have all but slipped from memory.

I was definitely waning last season under Flitcroft - any reason not to go was seized upon - especially after Lukewarm Luke’s season.

I’m missing my first home game Saturday - off to Nerja for a week - so thanks to iFollow I shouldn’t miss all the excitement! The fire has returned.

I would really appreciate a good FA Cup run this season - away to any London PL side would do. I think it would galvanise some of the lapsed.

W3  D6 l5. As we know the six draws are worth 2 wins.  Had Hart come in for 14 games and replicated his Palace record we'd have been on 46, one off D and R and 2 off Saddlers who stayed up.

Of course his Palace rescue, was a different set of circumstances being in the Championship, but still 46 game but only 3 down. When he took them on they had 33 points against our 31.  He got them to 49 a similar amount would have kept us up.

It ws all the more remarkable as Palace were docked 10 for Admin.... I guess it all added to why Fitton and co saw him as a short term firefighter.

Not sure he will, only one game this season has been against a team wanting to rough it up, the good old says of Div 4 are gone for now, most teams try and play it around a little to pander to the top clbs desire when sending out these loanees.  Pitches are also pretty good now.  We were a rarity last season, I think I suggested at one point that we should churn our pitch-up to improve our chances.

Anyway, he's either someone we'd miss (your suggestion we shouldn't have loanees in the spine because we might lose them all), or he's someone not significant enough to make an impact (your suggestion he might be a risk for a team trying to get promotion)..  You can't have it both ways.

There is only one fact, we are, after 7 games, in the top 7.  There is nothing concrete to suggest it will get worse, nothing concrete to suggest it will get better.  Your view that it could all unravel holds as much credence as someone suggesting we'll find something not yet seen and romp the league.

My "belief" is we'll make the play offs, it is a lottery after that.  Is that good enough, maybe not - I  think we are heading where our pre-season prep seems to have been geared towards, be in the hunt for January, then take stock and see if some bells and whistles could make a difference.

So, we have still gone down. Just 22nd rather than 24th

Palace stayed up despite Hart rather than because of.

He was always a shit manager.
Nothing will change that.

The original point was what possessed seemingly sane men to appoint Hart... and there's the reason. OK it was a bad pick and Fitton acknowledged he'd screwed up by walking.

His crap stats with Crystal Palace are not justification for his appointment.
Quite the opposite.

Each to their own but it appears to be a bit lame that you don't go anymore because we appointed Paul Hart.

You sound like the sort of person that doesn't speak to your mum anymore after she bought you crap shoes as a 7 year old.

I wish I didn’t speak to my Mum anymore. Having just produced her first grandchild I can’t go a day without seeing her!!

I didn’t stop going because we appointments Paul Hart, but that was the tipping point on the end of that season which began my melancholic feelings towards the Town.

Congratulations on the grandchild production. Maybe therein lies the answer.

Go to the match to avoid speaking to mum (for a few hours at least) :)

Is that why VD is so vehement in his anti Hart stance.... to me he was a short term firefighter, brought in because he'd kept Palace up the previous season, and failed with us.  Disapponting but really no more than that, the reasons for our demise had been in motion for a while before Hart

I still have a smile when I see Calvin Andrew getting the odd goal for Rochdale... Hart obviously knew him from Palace and he looked terrible, but he's had a career as a sort of occasional goalscorer, and is probably regarded fondly at Rochdale.  Scored the winner at Cov ealrier this month, his first of the season

I don’t blame Hart for our demise. As you said it started well before that.

His appointment was still stupid and he was completely the wrong man for the job.

Meeting my now wife 5 years ago and working till 7am Saturday morning and playing football Saturday all contributed.

I'm confident in that prediction. Not Audrey getting a hitler tache confident, but confident.

 :) Let's see, I reckon Calvin is good for another couple. interestingly he's made more apperances off the bench, than starts, in a career boasting over 300 games for 30 odd goals

Frequent loans represented a particularly sensible approach under Di Canio because if one of them stepped out of line they could immediately be sent ‘home’, without us needing to pay off an extortionate contract.

It can hardly be said that his regular use of the loan market resulted in failure.

On the basis of today's evidence, we're still a long way off shaping up into a functional match winning unit.

You're a fucker, you've been waiting to put this. Had we beat Bury you'd say "Well it was only Bury and to be expected, it wasn't a true test of whether we can mix it with the big boys..."

or similar.

Mods, change his name to Trolly McTrollface  ;) (You know I'm jesting Regina)

No, had we won convincingly, I'd have said a good sign that we're making progress...

 ;)

This mod wishes that others would just follow my lead...

(https://i.imgur.com/XrIEwcC.jpg)

My arse. You know you would have added a caveat.

Right on cue, so predictable.

Please don't feed the troll.

I agree 😂

Last week I was saying we need to find a consistency and that Bury with one win on the road, since 16/17, presented a decent opportunity.

PB backed that up when he said....


Had we succeeded as PB wanted, I'd have said job done... good. Saying that Bury don't travel well is only statement of fact, even if a possible caveat.

I think Reg is one of the few people on here who could carry off a cravat, with or without caveats. He has that kind of Leslie Philips suaveness :)

You really need to learn how to quote properly

Errr, no I don’t. Cause I don’t give a fuck. You can quote me on that if you like.

No one gives a fuck about your obsession with Reg either but we still end up with it in most threads.

I can. (wrapped around my forehead rambo style) Sweat and all..

I’m pleased and no you don’t.

Class

Whilst I would hate to butt in on the playground fun and games.....

How are we shaping up?

Consistently inconsistent, which if my old man is to be believed has basically characterised our performances on the whole since he first started going in the 1940's.

This   :clap:

With a few people saying they no longer trust PB and hes had enough time to sort it out - I did another quick "same point of the season" comparison with our other 2 championship winnings seasons in this league under Macari and PdC.

All after 11 matches played.

Brown   - position 11th W4 D4 L3 F16 A15 P16

Macari   - position 12th W5 D1 L5 F14 A15 P16

Di Canio - position 12th W5 D0 L6 F17 A12 P15

Interesting.

Some had us down for automatic promotion after the Yeovil game. After yesterday, some have us down as not even making the playoffs. Football fans are a funny old breed.

We need some consistency. The frustrating thing about yesterday is that we are capable of so, so much better.

We are not team that can win every game. Of course we will lose some. Not necessarily by a better team either. That is life. That is reality.

Too early to judge. After christmas is always the critical time. So many games left.

I think some defeats feel worse than others, so for example losing at Lincoln wasn't altogether unexpected. 

Losing at Crewe midweek, a bit more damaging. It throws onto the balance sheet 2 things.... last season we tended to struggle with midweek fixtures, against recently we've usually managed to get something at Gresty Road, as Crewe's model has looked increasingly anachronistic, leading to them struggling at the wrong end of Div 4.

We've now got Cobblers coming up.... not quite a must win yet, but not far away.  They've a new gaffer, and Curle obviously went back to basics, last night and got a 0-0.

I'd imagine he'll go for more of the same on Saturday, and make it ugly hope to nick something, especially as weather forecast isn't great.

Fair to say I've flipped between playoffs and not playoffs.

You are quite right Sippo, its too early to know which way it'll go.

But its natural to react on current game trend isn't it? 3 out of the last  4 games haven't been good enough. At Yeovil it looked like Bury was an off day, now it looks potentially more serious. When we hammer Northampton (!) it'll flip back to "inconsistent".

Such is human nature.

I can't see autos this year, I'm 99.9% certain. You can quote me on that if I'm wrong,

Difference with the di Canio season is that when we had a weakness in the squad, it could be quickly attended too with a loan (ridehalgh and foderingham spring to mind as the most obvious examples). That cannot be done this time

Let's look at all our Div 4 seasons.

Trollope 82/83 - position 6th  W5 D4 L2 P19

Beamish 83/84 - position 13th W4 D1 L6 P13

Macari 84/85 - position 12th W3 D3 L5 P12

Wise 06/07  - position 4th W 7 D2 L 2 P 23

Flitcroft 17/18 - position 9th W 6 D1 L 4 P19

Does this tell us anything  :hmmm:

This was before my time. anyone remember what the vibe was at this time under Macari. Were people seeing something good was happening, or were they as skeptical? What changed it around for Lou's team?

I guess we are less patient and demand instant results these days anyway. That said, football has changed too. Its not normal to build a squad over more than 1-2 years.

Although a dodgy league start on the road, we did well in the LC, beating Sunderland over 2 legs. The season was turned round by beating Exeter late on.... Colin Calderwood.  Lou made a number of personnel changes, as you could still acquire players back then so Kenny Allen came into goal... Nicky Coleman was loaned into left back, and Lou himself retired. Possibly the key change was Leigh Barnard, having filled in at LB for a bit came back from injury into midfield.

Leigh was one of those, who you will still find posters on here telling you was no good, but was to use modern parlance a water carrier. After the Exeter game we lost 3 of the next 37 winning 29 and drawing 5. Happy days.

Under Macari I felt there was a feel good factor in the club all season, even when we started poorly, Lou had been sacked the season before and reinstated so was an idol of tha fans who almost 100% backed him.

Brown does not have that but then again fans seem to be more fickle now than they were but that could just be social media giving idiots the freedom to express their feelings, back then it was only expressed in the pub or on matchdays so it could depend upon you circle of mates, if they were generally positive then so were you.

I think it tells us that comparative to the current season you are in (of which there are many variables), you can't draw any accurate conclusion to the data available.

My opinion? Don't forget I am a rose-tinted, over estimating of our players ability type (apparently). I think a lot are just acting on impulse after a match. So lose = we're Oxford (last night was just a bad advert for L2, although had Iandolo's strike gone in, many would look at it differently no doubt, still both teams were poor), Win = we're Hoddle's heroes, Draw = Just a middling L2 club looking for stability.

We really can't predict the future, even if we claim to be Nostradamus or Septic Peg but we can have a bloody good guess. FWIW and I know my opinion is looked at with very, very much caution so will always be overlooked. I think we have flipped our form around from last season. We seem to be much better at home than under Flitcroft and a little worse away (so far!). We have to remember though, we still haven't been at full strength yet. Every time we get a "settled team", someone has either picked up an injury or made a stupid tackle (Knoyle, Dunne). Taylor's red, I'll forgive and I still have my opinion on that (another story, another thread). PB is having to play players out of position because of this. Of course he can't control a player making a rash high tackle "in the moment" and players like Doughty, Woolery, and Conroy who would likely make the starting XI or at least be pushing, have been injured. The latter seems to be about there now though. If we have a near fully fit and unsuspended compliment, then from now to January I'd say we can be there or abouts the play-off places. True intent from the board, if PB gets to buy a "lay it off" type striker (or Richards discovers he can actually work in the current system or Woolery comes into the squad and plays well) and a LB cover then we still could make a good go at autos.

As mentioned above there are way too many variables right now. Come back to me on the evening of the 29th December (after we've played Mansfield off the park and won, resulting in DF getting the boot) and see where we are going in to the "Transfer Window".

Also, have you been to see your friend Lee play? He's rather good, you know.

Little difference between then and now, other than more platforms to express opinion... the opinions are largely the same.

So for example John Trollope..... yes John Trollope Town legend, was buried by negative fan reaction to a poor trot of results, when he was trying to build a sustainable Town side in the image of Bert Head, using a high number of local players.

Lou got a bit more time as we'd dropped to a historic low, and signs of progress, albeit small steps were discernible in his first season.  By his final season, when we had a poor trot, gates dropped right down, and questions were asked about his commitment to the cause. Poor trot was 1 win in 9 Oct/Nov 88, we still made the PO's Lou left at the end of the campaign.

Thanks Reg/Venks

I still think the Play Offs by season end.  Our worst, Lincoln aside, has been narrow losses, our best was a convincing win - I think when we are poor, and we will be, we are still in games.  Last night for example was very poor but we could just as easily come away 1-0 winners, a draw or lost 2-0.  We'd have always been in that game though, even allowing for our performance.

I think our best is better than nearly all teams, our worst is only worse than a small handful.

Brown needs to have a think about being so stuck on a single formation though - last night and Bury have surely shown us that key players in key positions are crucial.  Lose them and it is not as simple as putting someone else into their slot, sometimes we have to look at the squad and see how you get the best out of the best eleven you can put out.

Putting it another way, if we do not make the Play Offs, Brown should have his bags packed for him.

Of course, all seasons are different, but with some similarities discernible.  Namely you play 46 games 23 at home on the same pitch etc.  Most games will be closeish as most teams in Div 4 are of fairly similar ability, and it will take a while to find a winning formula if it is at all possible. Luck will play a big part which can't be easily factored in.

This explains why given the sample size no side has won 11 out of 11, no side has lost 11 out 11, the wins and loses are somewhere in between tending towards a median figure.  Scores in individual games follow this trend, it's unusual to get a 5-0, 0-6 outlier type of thing.

So the median figure for wins after 11 games is 5... it's wins that mostly accumulate points, so what you should be aiming to do.

PB has 4, slightly substandard but not by much and possible to rectify, compared to our most recent other season in Div 4 17/18 Flitcroft had 6, slightly above the median figure but again not by much... but is it possible to detect something even here?  Flitcroft seemd to like having plenty of forward players.... Smith, Norris, Mullin, Woolery, Anderson, and then Richards for Smith.... PB is more defensive minded doesn't mind a draw, hence why one fewer forward player and a bit more emphasis in midfield... or it coud be the injury problems to Conroy, Lancashire and Robertson forced his hand on the loan moves.

In the league winning seasons, Macari and PdC and were able to significantly strengthen when necessary.... not a luxury that will be available to PB. (Unless something very strange happens)

I'm still at a loss whether to describe our late wins as lucky, or our inability to score before the 90th minute as unlucky. On balance I think they were deserved, but I've still no idea which side of the watershed we'll come down on as the season progresses. Probably both

Yeah, I feel our home form is better (I think stats back that up) than it was under Flitcroft to date. Can't deny he seemed to have a "nak" of finding a way to win away. However we haven't been overtly shit away. The standard of football is better and we are becoming harder to beat. It's like we've sorted the defence out (largely) and midfield, maybe PB was trying to get in a striker but those links have petered...for now. We certainly (as RobT says) have to get through the next three months and see where we are at. I'm sure if we aren't in a play-off spot or higher then it will be addressed in January (Power paid reportedly £350k for Woolery, so he does pay for a player). Well we'd hope. Sending Romanski, Will Henry, Twine and possibly Smith on loan would free up some wages to bring in two? We may even see a couple leave by mutual consent (Robbo & Is RCC still on our books or not?), possibly a retiree? I feel we are nearly there. The right shuffling of the squad and two more in the positions mentioned and we could be up there.

Anyway, nicely measured post Reg :)

It is, but a significant stat might be that at no stage under Flitcroft, did we draw back to back blanks in the goals for column. That didn't happen last season until the antepenultimate and penultimate games under Brown namely Grimsby (h) and ColU (a)

So a bit more time has elapsed since the OP, so now more data to go on.... and it isn't comfortable reading.  As things stand with over a third of the season gone this is our worst ever Div 4 side.

17 games in, comparison

82/83 34 points p3rd
83/84 24 points p10th
84/85 23 points p12th
85/86 31 points p7th
06/07 31 points p4th
11/12 29 points p6th
17/18 29 points p5th

Using this by way of an indicator to final season's position

82/83 -5
83/84 -7
84/85 +4
85/86 +6
06/07 +1
11/12 +5
17/18 -4

In other words, usually from this stage of the season, although it can happen, mostly a side doesn't drop or rise too many positions until the end of the seasson.

In none of the seasons where we've had an improvement, could we get to the PO's from where we are, but an 82/83 style late slump would see us into the Conference.   I know there are those who maintain the Beamish outfit was the worst STFC side since the mid 50's, and certainly the air of atrophy hung thickly around the CG, but this is arguably worse.

The thread titles is ‘How are we shaping up’.

That shape is pear

Our worst ever start in the football league. Marvelous.

I've been a bit surprised by the calls for Brown to leave, more by some of the people who have seemed to be patient in previous dire situations.

But that really does put things into perspective.

And to be fair, his recent team selection are tipping me towards 'bugger off to Hull'. The only reason I'm not fully convinced its a good idea is that we may end up with Taylor. He seems a great pro,  but its too risky. Internal appointments...no.

I guess all managerial appointments are to some extent a risk, but if Taylor does possess a magic wand, this could be a good time to find out, insofar as realistically we're not going to make the PO's and should just about have enough to stay up as long as the likes of Macc and Numb continue to struggle.

Ideally Hull will take Brown and give Power some compensation.

True.

I'm just dead against internal appointments myself. And would prefer to try an 'up and coming' who has done a bit of management. Guess the chances of poaching anyone are zero.
-------------------------------
Not much to add on the 'how are we shaping up'.

Before the season started I thought we'd struggle for goals. Then August happened and I was looking a bit silly. Then September happened and I felt a bit smug.

It feels like we haven't hit the magic formula, but in searching for that we are continually tinkering and the result seems to be regression rather than progress.

In fact at times the players look a little confused in the roles they are supposed to be undertaking. Me too.

It's the way of the modern game though to tinker, players have to be adaptable, to a certain extent... namely you probably wouldn't stick a centre half on the wing, but might ask him to play in a 3 as well as 2 and perhaps occasionally as a holding midfielder.

Our problem, is again that the quality of players we can afford to recruit on the Power budget isn't very good, which is then compounded by injuries and suspensions.

Flexabiity is one thing.
Its the players left in the cold suddenly appearing as starters and vice versa that does my nut.

I know squads are there to be rotated for freshness and competition for places. This feels a bit more..random..in the hope we happen upon 'the solution'.

Do you honestly think McCourt plays his role better than Dave for example. That's one example of baffling tinkering. Though there is an obvious explanation.

I still hold firm that the quality of players in the squad, even allowing for obvious in-balances, should be enough to get into the play offs given the nature of opposition we are playing.  Take Colchester, a team doing well.  There was nothing on display that showed them to be a superior team by way of quality of players.  Certainly having watched them for 90 minutes, nothing that we should have feared.

Therefore, the current performance of the team suggests, to me, that we are underperforming.  That tinkering is the reason as far as I can see it.  There is nothing wrong with change - in fact, I've said before that trying something new and unseen works best.  Our 1990 team played a formation and style not really seen by others before.  Doing it effectively, with the right players meant we caught a lead on the division.  Ossie then had some success to begin with higher up, but teams work it out eventually.  Redknapp made a career by essentially changing his squad every year or two.  That is not the same as changing from one game to the next, every game.  Players don't tend to be a reflection of the average when you look at smarts - they concentrate on being better than everyone else at football when at school, not their homework (generalisation, but it is why players who get degrees are often on the BBC homepage).  Making them figure out how to play every game cannot be helpful, unless you recruited based on educational qualifications.  Let them be good at what they do, find out how to extract that, stick to it for a season, then re-invent again.

You're assuming that:
a) There is always a correlation between intelligence and educational attainment
b) That there is only type of intelligence, which can be measured in school exams, and applied to football.

Both wildly incorrect IMO.

Football intelligence is another matter, but very few display it, again just an opinion.  Even at the very top level, look at Guardiola and his evident frustration during games they are winning 6-1 - because players do not always follow the plan.  He is someone who seems to have that intelligence but he still doesn't believe his team are delivering to the level he thinks they can do if they just follow the plan, training. instruction, coaching etc.

Coopers season is a good example of when it works - we did not deviate from a defined plan for a good 60% of that season.  We did toward the end when we added Swift and it created a bit of uncertainty, and we looked far more fragile overall despite having a better player in the team.  The rest of the league seemed a bit bamboozled by us, before a couple of teams worked out a way, then they all replicated that towards the end.  It nearly worked over a full season, maybe a plan B was needed towards the end, but not a new plan for every game.  Some fans were frustrated at the way we played out so dangerously at times, but it was the plan.  The team knew it, they stuck to it and it paid dividends more than it worked against us.

Yep, agree with all that. And none of it has anything whatsoever to do with the school system or school exams, which was my point.

I've been troubled by the towns form of late but your stats have given me food for thought.
If we carry on as we are there's not going to be enough games by the end of Jan to save our arses based on our current form. We may only stay up by other teams being more shite than us despite our current mid table position. So here's my thoughts, the club is run on a shoe string and may not have the funds to remove PB or better still bring in a manger who can turn things around. If he does go then the sooner the better as we could stop the rot with some Jan signings (will be loans and freebies but that would be something) There's an air of resignation regarding our plight as we've been slowly sinking for a few seasons now, unless there's a wholesale change in the club its looking like we're heading to the conference. We have 3 old players who can't cut it in this division, we start with them each week which is a kin to sending out 8 players to face 11. Why does PB keep repeating the same mistakes/ is it part of a bigger plan! LASTLY OTHERS HAVE POSTED THIS, PLEASE GOD NO INTERNAL APPOINTMENTS, IT NEVER WORKS.

Oh, and Guardiola's "Genius" is that he has deployed the same plan for many seasons and nobody has yet really figured it out - his teams still largely retain a much higher % of the possession even when playing teams with equal resources and potentially playing talent.  His team are going to lose the odd game and miss out, but by and large there isn't  clear way being used to combat him.  Hoddle did the same with us - nobody else was playing that way.  Cambridge thought they had it, then Hoddle stuck two fingers up at them.  You still lose games, we didn't have the best squad and had to sell a fullback to pay a tax bill, but we were always able to play our way.

That's a lot of rambling from me to say the problem is Brown does not have a plan, that is evident and I believe the underlying cause to our position and performances of late.  Made more frustrating by the fact that for a few games we seemed to be on to something.

I feel that if we had a good plan and played to our strengths then it would be a diffrent season.They've proved they're good at times. However we need strengthening, which isn't going to happen and why would players sign for us now. If we lose or draw our next two games, then the rest of our season will become squeaky bum time.

Guardiola's trick is to get clubs whose financial might over the rest is so huge that can amass a huge squad of talent to tinker with. That gives you a massive head start,  I'm sure Brown could have us a few slots up the table with a budget say comparable to Lincoln, Mansfield or even ColU.

Lancashire isn't old, if that's who you mean, he obviously is sufering a bit atm with the injury. It isn't Taylor and Richards who are the problem rather the younger players, who are struggling to become league standard.

I was interested last night watching Vitorino Hilton at Montpellier 41 year old centre back, Montpellier have the joint best defensive record in Ligue Un, having conceded something like 6 all season. Hilton doesn't run much but organises the younger lads around him, who do that bit for him.

That's Brown's plan if you like, now you can argue as to whther it's failing because the senior players aren't communicating well enough, or as I feel more likely, the younger players are not good enough.

We won't finish top 7 under Brown. I was willing to give him time as I thought the football generally improved under him at the tail end of last season... But for me he isn't the man to take us up and I think it will be better to get someone in now and give them January - July to prepare for next season (this one has gone, lets face it). Even if its Matty Taylor. I know people are against internal appointments but he knows the club well now, the fans like him and he's a smart fella. Harsh to judge him on that Cheltenham game alone last season I think.

Because he knows the club, I'm far from convinced he'd take it if offered.  When Macari took us on, people asked him why, and he answered because STFC should be higher up the league having just finished in a historic low position, therefore he should be able to get progress on his CV.... now of course he did this, but only on the back of financial doping, that fans did not know about at the time.

Brown came out with the old we should be higher up the pyramid bullshit, but Power's modus operandi tells us different.  If If I was an ambitious wannabe gaffer looking at a first job, I'd want an awful lot of guarantees from Power about budgets, future plans regarding training facilities, etc before risking my reputation especially when he can probabaly get a nice support job at a Prem club, or an upwardly mobile club like say Pompey for more money.

Almost makes it a win / win for him I think. If he does well, it looks good on the CV... If he doesn't, then it was because it was in difficult circumstances. I still think he'd make a decent manager one day, at Swindon or somewhere else. I feel like the squad we have is only 1 or 2 away from being a top 3 side at this level. The talent is there and Brown currently isn't utilising it at all.

He seems to genuinely enjoy being at the club too.

Agreed there. Certainly he could be a good manager. My objection is I don't think the transition from teammate to boss has worked well in the past. If it happens and Taylor got it, I am not closed to the idea that it could work this time .

I really don't see the talent.... I ask myself a basic question, could I see this lad playing further up the pyramid?  When I look at our squad the answer is mostly... no. Alzate and Bayo whilst having some ability, are miles away from being near a finished product, which is of course why they're on loan to try and add that missing something.

I was interested to read that Bayo was in fact brought through by Fulham as a centre half, up front is a recent conversion.

Rather what you need to do is forge a unit where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts and we're not doing that atm for a number of reasons.

The what makes a good manager question is one of life's great mysteries.  I mean if it ws so obvious that Eddie Howe was going to be a managerial genius why couldn't we see it when he was with us... and why didn't it work at Burnley.

Look at someone like Julian Nagelsmann at Hoffenheim took them on aged 28, when in a releagtion battle kept them up and got CL qualification the next season for the first time in their history, still only 31.

Injury finished his career early so he went off to uni, and then coached youth sides on graduating, before getting the top job.

I guess Power saw a bit of Nagelsmann in Luke....

Has it happened much at Swindon? I can't really think of any, not permanently at least. Ady Williams... The Miller / Ward combo had it for a few games. Who else?

 The sort of thing we could do with is a 2000 -13 vintage Paul Sturrock.... I guess Power sees Brown as a poor man's Sturrock.

 Always thought it a shame he'd had enough by the time Fitton et al came on board, so was tempted by a nostalgic return to Plymuff, where it didn't work out him second time.

Alzate is better than anything I have seen at this level - that doesn't mean he will be a great player, but a decent Manager should be able to extract something useful from him this season.

Adebayo was a forward when younger, Fulham tried converting him to a defender due to his size and frame, they then agreed to move him back being a forward.

Both Doughty and Diagarouga are better than this level when on form, they have even shown as much with us this season in several games (not all).

Nelson is more than competent.

Knoyle could well have a career at the next level, depends how much effort goes into nurturing him.

There are others with a lot to prove, but there is enough in this squad to compete (we have competed in pretty much every game bar two).  You might like to portray us as cannon fodder, but the results show we are not.  They don't lie, we are not performing well enough to be higher than we are, but they show a team that is not far off those it plays against when it loses.  You tell me that Colchester looked markedly better than us on Saturday?

Not really, but we have promoted from within without much success.  I think it depends on the who, not the what.  Gorman and Williams both being seen as good coaches and were generally friendly with the squad, as far as we are told.  Not sure how Taylor is seen internally.  We can see what he does on the pitch and he does offer advice but he doesn't seem to lead, not from what I can see on the screen anyway.

I got the impression that the players didn't really fancy playing under Taylor in his one game in charge.

Players are usually well up for it when there's a new manager to try and impress and what not, but they just didn't seem that bothered. I know it was only one game and it's harsh to judge him on that, but still...

Eddie Howe lost his first two games at Bournemouth. We’ve nothing to judge Taylor on, apart from the fact he is clearly intelligent, articulate and that he’s incredibly keen to coach and appears to be ambitious.

I just don’t buy the “internal appointments don’t work” theory. They don’t work where they are made by default - i.e. he is here, so why not? There are a lot of those, where sentimentality or budget prevail over an objective selection of the best available option.

Taylor doesn’t fall into that bracket. If he applied, having not played at the club, he would still fit the criteria I would be looking for in a manager. As a lower half League 2 team, we no longer have the option of having “previous success” as a criterion. The fact Brown was appointed on that basis suggests it isn’t the best indicator anyway.

Appoint Taylor. Let him choose an assistant. What have we got to lose? We’re heading nowhere as it is. I just have a very good feeling he could turn us around.

Re Alzate being better than anything you've seen at this level... Matt Ritchie  :hmmm: 

Bayo's physical attributes may get him a career, but not necessarily at a high level.  Dia and Doughty have played at a higher level but it's doubtful they'll go back upwards.

Sid may make a career as a lower league stopper, and there's nothing wrong with that. Knoyle for me doesn't do enough, tidy , but you don't get a Kewell saying if you stop Knoyle getting balls in the box you stop Swindon like he did with Taylor.

I've said many times one of the good things about Div 4 is it is a relatively even league, hence a lot of draws and mostly not much between sides.... it's the little things that make the difference. So for example ColU could lure our leading goalscorer away, which has just given them an edge, especially as he wasn't replaced. Someone like a Lincoln could sign a Harry Toffolo, a player I'm sure we'd have all liked to see at LB.

Sometimes, the marginal gains can be something a bit strange and out of the blue.... so for example Accy last year, pick up Kayden Jackson who really had no sort of pedigree at all, he gets them 16 goals and they win the league.... Jackson gets snapped up by Ipswich has scored one league goal, and Tractorboys are detached at the foot of Div 2.

How much impact did Accy's free burger bonus for winning have?  There's little sign that anything a bit random is happening for us like a Twine coming good.

Howe was appointed by default according by your definition, Bormuff were skint had a skeleton staff, and had been docked something like 15 points. He was still on the payroll but injured and a senior player, so he got the gig.

Flasher's point about Taylor's one game is semi valid, apart from normal rules of engagement don't apply v Numb.   I doubt Taylor has a magic wand, the most reliable way for us to get back some forward momentum is for Power to either invest, or sell up to someone who can.

The problem for any owner who doesn’t just want to throw money at it, is there is not much incentive to be in L1 as opposed to staying in L2.

Accepting life in L2 has, of course, inherent problems - as in actually staying there.

What if the players who may well be capable of better realise the club isn’t really focussed or that bothered about getting promotion?

It’s why every club needs to be 100% pulling in the same direction. I honestly don’t feel, atm, that the club is that bothered.

He was - the point is that if you extrapolate data on managers appointed (a) because they are in the building, and (b) those that happen to be in the building but would be the best fit anyway, even if they’d been outsiders - then the number of success stories in (b) would likely the as high, if not higher, than with any other managerial appointment. It is far too basic to say “he’s already here, so it cannot work.” That is simply false.

And based on a fairly safe assumption that neither of your Power-related solutions have even a remote possibility of happening, I think it’s fair to say a change of Manager is the most likely variable at this time.  

Well you're going to get a better calibre of loan in Div 3, and then maybe you can pick them up if decent like Luongo,
 Byrne, so flog for decent money.... further better players around you make all players look better to some extent, so a Ben Gladwin looked good for a while with us we got a decent fee and he's been shit since.

This won't have escaped Power... however what has escaped Power is the ability for his contacts to spot a player. There are still players to be had... take Jack Marriott who's attracting a lot of attention at Derby.... youth at Ipswich, without playing, so out on loan 3 times to Woking, where he scord a few... Luton take a punt, then onto Posh where he scored loads last year.

I wonder if our scouts saw him when watching Jonny Goddard and thinking he was the business.

Another example... David Brooks a handful of Conference games for Halifax, then Sheff U buy him.... a handful of games for them then 11 mill to Bormuff.

It's axiomatic that most managers fail, as it is a very difficult job.  It requires all sorts of peculiar personal qualities many of them not necessarily that pleasant. So for example you have to be ruthless without appearing bullying... I think having trusted staff around is also key, so that you can delegate many aspects.  Brown may well be missing Horton's input.

You seem to be missing my point. Taylor wouldn’t fail because he has spent time at the club. He would succeed or fail depending on whether he is any good.

I’d  also say that managers have succeeded without being ruthless, and some have succeeded whilst openly encouraging an element of fear (PDC, Clough...). Some have succeeded without trusted staff, but some don’t. Brown may be missing Horton, but he didn’t do much better when he had him here. I’m not sure how any of this relates to the original point above, except to say that there is no golden rule to managerial success, just trends, many of which get bucked.

Not true. The fans and players were well up for it. We just didn't play well and the heads dropped. The defence was terrible that day and Eisa tore us apart

Reg - Alzate is better than anything I have seen this season.  Even Ritchie was bang average when he first came - at the time he looked a far less likely prospect than Ward.  PDC found his sweet spot, that's for sure.

Oh right. Not a lot to compare with this season. Danny Ward now there's a name.... his little knock in after a run by JPM at the Valley, a thing of great beauty, but look at the hero of that night Steven Darby, when it boils down to it, it's only a game of football.

Brighton have given Alzate a 5 year contract I think so they obviously see him as a talent and someone who could play at a higher level. I presume next season they'll be looking for a league 1 side for a loan next season, and then Championship etc.

Great post Reg.

Going off topic for just a second, did anyone see Doddie Weir either on the one show or before the Wales v Scotland egg chasing on Saturday? His life is slowly being shut down and he speaks with such humour and with a smile on his face. Its a battle that sadly he can't win, but he won't let that show. Such a horrific disease.

Doesn't really indicate a whole lot, other than B and HA think he might make a player, and not much to lose if he doesn't.

Chelsea have 40 players on loan, and an U 21 side of players there who could win 4-0 at the CG.... more or less none of these will play for the first team, but they may make a few bob out of selling them, Patrick Bamford style, on the back of the loans.

Soton extended Jordan Turnbull's contract when he was with us, then soon afterwards moved him out.

I don't disagree with you at all. Premier league sides have the resources to work like that unfortunately. Hopefully there will be a change of rules to limit that.

What is good to see is talented English players getting a chance in Germany. Reese Nelson and Jadon Sancho tearing up the Bundesliga. Closer to home Loftus-Cheek finally looks to be given a chance at Chelsea and Morgan Gibbs-White at Wolves looks a talent as well. I'm sure there are others but the future looks bright for England at last.

I suppose Brexit will close off that route for young English players.

Who the hell knows. Its a risk.

It could close off non Uk players coming here as well. Then perhaps our youngsters won't need to ply their trade in the bunglers league.

Might have stopped Vigs going to Waterford

Although there has been free movement between UK and RoI since the 1920's, you do wonder if it can carry on post Brexit.

 

Hopefully our final away game won't be a who retains their league status shootout.

That doesn't bear thinking about....

How can it?  I assume at a Passport/Nationality level maybe, but you can't retain an open border without undermining the entire point, otherwise those pesky Polaks will keep flooding in to take your jobs while also sponging off of the benefits.

We might come back to your post at the end of January. By then we may start thinking about it!

Why not? If it did before why shouldn’t it or wouldn’t it again?

Oldham got their point at Meadow Lane to drop us down to 17th.... our lowest position after a significant amount of games since finishing 17th in 83/84, however the Beamish side only dropped there after te final round of games previously spending most of the seasona bit higher.

Does keep a nice gap to Notts mind, so not all bad.... further Flitcroft's boys again did us a favour by beating Grimsby and so moving into the PO positions.  Grimsby will most likely be one of those who we won't be able to afford a repeat of last season if we are to stay up.

At risk of bringing politics into this thread, I very much doubt FoM is going to end at all.

https://news.sky.com/story/eu-free-movement-to-continue-under-no-deal-brexit-minister-suggests-11545699

it may be early but iv pretty much written off this season already in terms of expectations.

Compared to last season we are the same if not stronger in all areas of the pitch except up top. All flitcrofts team needed was cb's and a decent keeper which we now have decent competition for.

Should have kept Mullin personally, in hindsight you could say we should have kept Norris but it was a case of it just wasn't going to work and sensible to cash in, that cash however should have gone back on a striker. Seems like we took a gamble on a loan striker, an old experienced striker on a goal drought and a hit and miss Woolery to get us promoted.

The one tiny bit of hope is to get to january and not be too far behind

January, unless we go on a blinding run, could be another 8 to 10 defeats, and or draws away. If we're not close to playoffs who's going to sign for us just to be involved in a relegation battle? Will the solution be more non league, non fee unpolished turds. What a bad position we find ourselves in, unless we start getting back to back wins and that's not happended for ages. With the benefit of hindsight I can safely say that every season we start with a team which is worse than the last. Difficult times and dark days for STFC, where's our saviour when we need one!

I still can't say that this team is worse than last (obviously points reflect that though), keepers, centre backs and centre midfields have significantly improved. just hasn't come together and the lack of a goal scoring highlights the rest of the teams flaws.

Not only did we lose Norris and Mullin and replace them with a loan kid, but also Matt Preston, who although we offered to, was always going to sign for Mansfield.  Is it a coincidence they've the best defensive record in Div 4 ?  We replaced Preston with Nelson, again on loan, not a bad player but not as good atm.

The defence isn't that much worse, our 22 conceded plays last season's 20 after 17 games, but the 19 scored against 26, tells you all you need to know...... further that is the fewest for any Div 4 campaign at the same stage

We are better in midfield, however Brown punted on the Dia/Doughty axis and it just hasn't worked out due to injury and suspension.

 Time for an update....   the last input into this thread was in the last days of Brown. Since then we've played a further 6 league games under Wellens and accumulated 10 points. So a bit of new manager bounce... if continuing at that rate we'd get 69 points, last season we had 68 finishing 9th.  So half way through and played everybody once. 

We look atm pretty much a midtable outfit, which fits the perception of how the squad was developed back in the summer.

Given that we had a flirtation with the nether regions after the Carlisle game, the cushion to the dropzone is welcome.

Had we picked up 4 points from the 2 difficult games v Mariners and Numb, then perhaps we could have started to look up, but just the 1, although unsurprising is a remnder of our current status.

It would take a PdC style second half of the season to mount a meaningful upward challenge... in 11/12, we lost to Torquay on Boxing Day, then having 37 points, but something like 13 wins from the next 14 propelled us up and away.

I would say it is not going to happen... so how about scraping a PO place.  Well 7th in Div 4 can be a bit variable points wise, but if we take last season's 75 as a benchmark, we'd require something like 12 wins 8 draws and only 3 defeats, or maybe 13 wins 5 draws and 5 defeats.  There's no evidence that this squad is capable of such numbers, especially as Power sides tend to fall away after the window.

So what can we look forward to for the second half?

Well I've gone from thinking we'll be definitely in the playoffs, to definitely in a relegation battle and back to maybe the top 7 is possible.

I think the answer is probably midtable. Wellens has had some impressive performances but also some stinkers, although on the whole I think we look "better" than we did under Brown. All depends on what can be done in January but I'll probably stick with midtable, with perhaps a brief flirt with the top 7.

I didn't see the game Saturday, but from what I have seen I think we'll make the playoffs. A lot depends on recruitment in the window though, of course. Abedayo needs replacing, he's too inconsistent. It pains me to say that because I thought he looked so good at the start of the season.

adebayo is a reflection of the team perforces, as Tails said, promotion hopefuls one week, relegation performance the next.

get Sid Nelson signed.
get Dave fit and functioning.
get a goalscorer and a winger, and possibly a left back

tough ask, but that's what I feel the minimum is to get in the promotion mix

The fact that Bayo has been average, could work to our advantage.  There could be a player in there, if he was firing we'd have no chance of signing him, but perhaps now we have.

We certainly won't sign anybody of proven quality, unless a Marc Richards style veteran on his last legs.

An intervention from St Jude?

Duffus was in the house Saturday according to Twitter

Cheltenham fan  :)

This.

I agree with all of that almost word for word.

If Bayo is playing well we look a good solid promotion bet, if hes playing badly the whole team seem to be playing badly and we look mid table at best.

Get Toums fit and he could guide us up the table, Sign Nelson on Jan 1st when his loan expires, or at minimum get him on a longer loan and try and sign him at the end of the season, hes a captain in the making and you can put up with his flaws for the effort and commitment he brings, he may not be good enough for any higher than L1 but I would prefer that to be with us.

Bring in a right winger (McGlashan isn't good enough IMO) a solid attacking LB who can defend (similar to Hussey) and a target man or out and out goalscorer.

Then I do genuinely feel we could be vying for promotion.

Wellens has the players playing more expansive game and being allowed some freedom in attack. The problems seem to stem from us playing the long ball from defence rather than passing, running and crossing which we do well.

Ten games in for Wellens. If the current ppg of 1.5 stays the same then that would give us 64 or 65 points.

Might be a case of turning 3 or 4 draws into wins and seeing if 70 or 71 will be enough.

I'd be happy if last season's total of 68 could at least be equalled or bettered and it's not an unrealistic target if RW can do better in the final 10 games than PB managed last season.

It's very rare for a Town side to do better in the back end of the season than the front end.

Of course it can happen.... just usually to others; such an example would be in 15/16, when we got a useful point at Blades to give us a record of p27 points 35, nicely mid table after an early struggle and the loss of two managers.

Next up we had Barnsley, who were below us by a couple of points, they somewhat undeservedly nicked it right at the end, in the time added for their time wasting, as they seemed happy with a point.

We then had the sort of standard 6 wins 5 draws 7 defeats finish, and the Tykes stormed away doing a HubCap and PO double.

  So into the home straight, 4 home games left.... Morecambe, Crewe, Yeovil, Notts.  I would suggest, Wellens needs to win at least 2 of those, preferably with a convincing performance. Further a win at Whaddon Road could do a lot of good.

 These are dangerous times for Wellens, he needs to avoid a McMahon late 90's type ending whereby the players were on the beach after getting to 50 points with about 9 to go, and the form  became terrible, watching home games was excruciating and gates fell off to little more than our present 6K and that in Div 2.

 It was this sort of thing which compounded the loathing for him... the true dangers of that era revealed themselves when the whole club nearly went tits up, at the turn of the century, and hasn't managed to get back to that level since.

 It may be a perception thing and everything might be hunky dory, so a respectable end to the seasson with say 4 wins and a couple of draws is required, to give a bit of optimism for next season.

As soon as it becomes impossible, rather than unlikely, play the players who are going to be here next year.

No point Woolfenden playing when we could be developing a Conroy/Broadbent pairing for example.

I think Wellens has been trying to use his squad with an eye to the future, and nothing wrong with that... but still think the basic rule has to be try and win the next game. 

Morecambe isn't going to easy, their current say 5 or 6 game form might be better than ours.   Bentley will know a spoiling game may well reap dividends for them.

With only 4 home games left, and the form still being scratchy, the target has to be try and win with some entertainment.

What is the point of having players who's wages are being paid to not play them ?

We want to end the season with a bit of momentum so winning games will be important, but equally if there is a chance of blooding someone like Bancroft so Wellens can see him in a full game against proper opposition with an eye on next season then lets do it

I think we really need a period of stability at the club. It looked like that was going to happen with Flitcroft but then he left towards the end of the season, Brown picked up the reigns, didn't like what Flitcroft had left him so tried to put his stamp on things by only signing midfielders. Then when it didn't work out with him, we have a new man, who has his own new ideas and with Shirtliffe and Jewell coming in it seems we are trying to finally put some foundations down to take the club forwards and up the leagues.

I note already that some of our fans on Twitter are already starting to turn a bit on Wellens but I think we have to give him a chance to instill his own ideas and bring in the players that he'll be able to utilise to get the best out of his chosen way of playing. He is clearly trying to make do with what was in the squad before he came, he's done ok, lets see if he can finish the season strongly (ish) and have a good break in the summer and then crack on with an attack on a league 2 promotion.

Well seen as we have more players than slots in a match day squad there will always be under contract players picking up a wage whilst not playing.

As this season is now a write off it makes perfect sense to give game time to those who will be continuing to pick up a wage next season.

There is a flaw in your plan.... we don't have 11 available players contracted for next season. That excludes any youth teamers, as it would be very naughty to put out weakened teams especially against releagtion candidates like Yeovil and Notts, and promotion candidates like Bury.

Still plenty to play for this season...

We have ten, so we have a free slot as a showcase role :-)

You'd imagine they have a good idea which of the others are likely to be offered terms and a feel for if they would take them, plus Koiki is likely to fill a Long term loan slot. Maybe a total of 14-15 end up in next years squad from what we have today.  At least most of them are wanted as well, unlike last year where we retained the ones we probably didn't want like Robertson.  Knoyle is probably the biggest risk and a couple of those 14 are not likely ready for the first team yet.

Well, obviously I meant only play players contracted for next season, rather than priorities them.

We have fuck all to play for...

Totally agree there. Nothing to be gained from doing much else. Assuming Ipswich's wage contribution doesn't rely on have time I guess.

Two of whom (Twine and Mcglashan) are out on loan. He's not likely to play McCormick due to the risk of upsetting contract negotiations with Vigs. Diagouraga didn't take his chance against Stevenage, so that just leaves potential debuts for Curran and McGilp. Unless I'm missing something...

There could be more as I think the contract length hasn't been disclosed for Henry, Robertson, Romanski, Iandolo, Edwards and Pryce

Each match is an event in itself, with lots of sub plots and nuances...  for example we've never lost to Morecambe, now given that last season they had some sub 1000 gates, Bentley is doing a pretty amazing job to keep them in Div 4, instinctively you'd like to think we should be above them in the pyramid, but lose and it brings them within 6 points.

Further with a couple of games to go Wellens will have had 27 league games like Brown... his record W7 D11 L9...... so far Wellens record W8 D6 L6.  Wellens will want to add some wins onto that, as if it ends up comparable, some fans will be asking questions about next season. 

A poor end to the season and we're in 83/84 country 17th our lowest ever finish, this needs avoiding as there will be some questioning if the consistent season on season drop since 14/15 under Power has indeed bottomed out, and whather he is the man the Trust should be getting into bed with re the CG.

Then there's the visits of Yeovil and Notts, 2 who may be going into non league.... I'd be sorry to see Yeovil go, an easy trip and we usually do pretty well there.  The trip to Whaddon Road and the possibilty of seeing a win or even a draw, has always had this marked down as massive.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over never visiting Yeovil again.
Two stations and both in the middle of nowhere as is the ground.
Would prefer to see Macclesfield survive.

I wouldn't mind if Macc stayed up, but having 2 stations makes Yeovil interesting.... Yeovil Pen Mill, great name. Neighbouring county, if they go it'll fuck the Somerset/Wilts/Glos mini league.

Rovers could replace Yeovil.
The mini league could expand next season to include neighbours Oxfordshire and Hampshire.

True, regarding Rovers, but they're a bit more Gloucestershire hinterland though.  I don't accept Oxfordhire as a neighbouring county.... Berkshire yes,  although Reading returning to Div 4 is probably a bit distant.  Good point presumably regarding Eastleigh's prospects.... definitely one to look out for.

 Well, it's gone pear shaped at the end.  Things have unravelled pretty quickly and probably more so than expected. 

 Dangerous times ahead.... most recognise what Wellens is saying to be corrrect and obvious... like over dependence on loan players highlighted at the start of this thread, and the lack of basic Div 4 battling qualities. 

Wellens further puts the time scale firmly in the Power reign, implied if not stated.  This could be a political move.... he knows Power wants the CG, but will have to get into bed with the Trust, for that to happen. The trust need the fans to put their hands in their pockets, but how many will be prepared to if it seems to supporting Power, while he still takes the club backward?  Or perhaps he's just lost the plot.... incoherent thinking, the equivalent of when he got the red playing for McMahon v Town.

Hopefully fans are aware that putting their hand in their pocket is for their own half of the ground, furthermore that now the genie is out the bottle so to speak its vital that the Trust secure 50% rather than giving Power an opportunity to persure 100%.

Those in the trust that are involved in the dealings will have to no doubt get and communicate the legal position about the ownership to cover the case should Power throw a wobbler.

In terms of the playing side, yeah it unravelled quickly. I've fluctuated between optimism and dread for next season.  If we got Conroy and Knoyle signed up it would ease my unrest, a sign of intent.

I think the best course is to ignore it all for a month!

I'm glad we have Paul Jewell in to provide an experienced hand. We'll see soon enough if its another season of the same recruitment MO.

I'd like to know what Jewell actually does, you only ever him of him scouting ooopp noorth is he at the club, who deals with contract negotiations ? where is the dividing line between Jewell & Power who does what ?

I'd guess that Jewell's work is more or less a casual gig... remuneration mostly dependent on finder's fees if we get a saleable asset.

I think Wellens has done a couple of things:

a) recruited pretty well
b) shown that having a simple plan can get results
c) has, by and large, provided more entertainment
d) begged a whole bunch of questions about durability of his plan - Oldham slumped, so have we
e) as a result, loaded a whole set of Brown style weight on his own shoulders as we go through a summer re-build

I'm still one to have more on the plus side for him, but he'd better squeeze Power's knackers over the summer and get a squad together quickly that can begin to resemble something akin to a promotion team, or face the prospect of being another Power Out poster child for the facebook generation.

I certainly preferred it when he was talking about using a lot of the current squad.... I could see that with a core of what we'll have next season and even some usual Power type recruitment we should be OK to stay in Div 4.

 Further some proper recruitment and we could be looking at competing.  It should be noted that there are 81 teams in the pyramid above us and only 7 who aren't down or in the mix final day.... a decent points gap, mind.

 Now though, there's a big risk... we're going to be totally reliant on Wellens and Jewell getting this right...

Now it’s become obvious that quite a few players haven’t the stomach for a fight he has little option but to start again. Brown did no better and your pal Flitcroft landed us with some right old plums.

It’s pretty much the same for most clubs in the basement - any decent players will be sold and the search starts all over again for replacements.

Whether his rhetoric of 80% of the players being binned turns out anywhere near realistic remains to be seen.

It hurts, I'll give Flitcroft some due.

He boiled it down to a very simple game plan.  He didn't need any ball players, just hit it forward into key areas.  Defenders had no need to worry about doing anything bar defending, same for midfield two.  He then had four up top - the idea being they would get the scraps between them and do enough to win games.

It kind of worked, but, as with the nature of the Roulette game it was based off, not enough, because you are playing with chance.  He bet on having defenders who were basic defenders and four top men who would bank enough goals between them.  His recruitment wasn't quite right so it didn't pay off often enough, in my opinion and his points per game ratio.

What he did manage to do though was the key - a simple game plan the players understand.  If you can do that and have slightly better players overall than most teams, you probably do well.

It was just fuck awful to watch and I hope I never see it again.

When Flitcroft was manager my point was, and still is, what next?

Sure his brand may well get you into L1 but then what? It’s never going to cut the mustard a league higher. It’s why I always thought he was a complete fraud.

Once the buzz of promotion out of L2 has worn off and you become a bumbling along L1 club, flirting with relegation yet again, what’s the fucking point.

Mansfield fans are saying all the things we did and they’re in the POs at least. And he’s spent a shitload of the Radfords’ money in what probably will turn out to be a bottled promotion bid.

The MK v Mansfield game on Saturday is effectively a play off final - just that MK have to win in normal time. I don’t like MK, but I dislike Flitcroft (in a panto villain type of way), so not sure who I want to go up/stay down. The loser will somehow have to pick themselves up again for the play offs, and will probably bomb in the semis.

Apart from... if Tranmere win Tuesday and Saturday, they'll move to 78 and open it all up. Both MK and Flitcroft could miss out in a glorious twist.

Come on tranmere

I don't think the approach Flitcroft took is limited to L2 - i you get better players, especially upfront,you can take it up the leagues.  What I do imagine, and maybe we are seeing, is it costs you more - you are going to be telling players to do stuff they think is beneath them, so might need a bit more money in their pockets to loosen their footballing morals.  I mean, nobody develops as a player doing it that way, aside maybe from centre back and centre forward.

Bolton are paying a bit of a price right now for this approach - in the end, to sustain it they had to pay older players a shit tonne of money to come and make them competitive in the Prem.  Once that fell apart, the chickens came home to roost and they racked up over 100m in debt.  But for their owner wiping most of it off, they'd be in the non-leagues building back up by now.

Plus, it hurts the eyes.

It's always good to reconsider views based on evidence....

It been done many times, but Flitcroft came into a very dodgy situation, had to do a rapid rebuild and the danger of getting it wrong, probably non league football.

So, you keep it simple, apply basics.

So to Audrey, his recruitment was not too bad at all.... given no manager gets them all right, but now we're having to get maximum value out of every signing, there's less wriggle room than perhaps previously... all our better gaffers of the past will have a few dodgy signings.

So Flitcroft's ++ would be Knoyle, Preston, if he'd signed, Taylor. Others, like Keshi and Kaiyne, still a bit jury out, although there are some like me who would stick with them next season. Dunne, I'd let go but he's been pretty much bog standard Div 4 journeyman, pretty much what you'd expect. Mullin ws one who most woukd have liked to have stayed  Lancashire was OK ish until fucked by injury and Robertson, the waste of a year stand out stumer.

As regards Div 3 if we get there.... now it's a case of worry about when... top half Div 3 now looks a difficult league for us, in the way that Div 2 used to years ago, and as has been shown this season with 4 down, if you're not in the top half you're in a relegation battle until late on.

The massive game on Tuesday is Oldham at Newport.... win for Newport moves them up into the PO spot.... win for Oldham, means we finish 14th or 15th.

That would please me !!!.

Wellens correctly points out the problems at the club for the last few years, which have been pretty obvious... now of course there are dangers in his appoach, but also an opportunity. Can he use the coming weeks to make us at least look like a proper football club again?

Sort of thing required... get recruitment done early. Get a structured set of friendlies in place asap. If there is to be a bonding trip like Brown had, early recruitment means you have the players to bond, not like last year's brush up Phil's tan mission.

Have an open day at the CG in the school hols... doesn't have to be all singing/dancing Fitton style... more a meet and greet new players, maybe an open training session get the kids/mums etc having selfies taken etc.   Mix this up with the Trust revealing plans for the CG purchase , and trying to sell some shares... emphasising the joint venture and reassuring fans that we're in this together.

Hold a Q and A forum at the CG, one evening.... ideally Wellens and Power, but I wouldn't expect Power.... maybe Anderson would do, or Morfuni.

All simple stuff, but it's the sort of thing which has led some of us to describe the club as broken, because it doesn't happen.... no links between fans and club.  There's an inherent danger in a broken club... and that's there only being presently 8 clubs between us and non league.

Some interesting points but none of the above will happen. The form of STFC is bottom 4 and that's how its going to finish. A bad start to next season which is very likely do to a last minute loan and freebie signings policy and Wellens will go the way of those before him despite all the fine words and truth he's spoken about the club.As you've pointed out there's not much between us and the bottom over a season, the best we can hope for is that 2 teams will be utterly shite next season to keep us up. anything else will be a miracle.

Many years ago under Bob Smith pre season they had a game blues v reds. All squad was used and entry to the game was free. Thought it was a great way to introduce new players.
I think they used to do it back in the 50s.
Tagged on to an open day would probably go down well.

You're working hard to keep that "Yellow troll" tag aren't you?

phew, can still snatch 13th with a win and a bit of luck. nervy days

I'd rather finish 13th than 15th... top half should have been doable.  When we played Newport at the start of the 3 game away run 5 games ago, a good point kept them down below us... since we've got 2 points they've got 13.

Bury up....

I don't really care, 13, 14th, 15th it's all shit

Champions
Automatic
Play offs
Nothingness
Relegation

8th to 22nd all the same.

Maybe in your world, but the league table is the most reliable metric to judge a season.... and clearly Wellens has thrown his plans and toys out of the pram, because we can't get say an 8th place finish, at least respectable, or a 9th place finish at least matching last season's effort.

So for example Newport who occupied our sort of perch until recently should finish at least top ten even if not making the PO's last day, and therefore including cup exploits will be able to claim their greatest ever season in current form and look forward with some optimism, on the playing side even if off pitch looks threatening.

Further you can see the impact it has on fans through social media, when they consider the obvious worse finish since 83/84 headline.

 This is farly incendiary stuff from Welllens....


I've long argued on here the concept of the broken club... all links between club and fans gone.  Further it's not something solely attributable to Power, but the process has accelerated under his ownership, therefore this is an implied criticism of him, by the manager.

Which begs the question, has Wellens run this by the owner, or does he feel that given our historic shitness atm that he can get away with it  :hmmm:

This is a bit like an alcoholic at first needs to be able to say they have a problem, before they can confront it. 

So this is a first step, an acceptance of the broken club... time and effort shouldn't be wasted in further argument about culpability, but rather ideas from both club and fans as to what we're going to do about it...

And it continues on from his "cancer of mediocracy (sic)" rant from last week. Good stuff if he has the backing to turn it round.

I wonder if this is the result of a positive influence from Clem behind the scenes?

Or Power’s ‘I’m outta here soon. Say what you like.’

Can’t see how Power could argue against what he’s said, though. It’s plain for all to see.

Fixing it is another matter - probably only attainable through success on the pitch.

The way I see things at the moment is, we have a solid keeper and an excellent midfielder if Doughty stays. The rest of the team is almost a rebuild. we have no back line, no forwards,no wide men and no money. So its another season of frees and loans. That's been so successful over the recent years that I consider a mid uper mid finish as a result. I don't think Wellens will last that much longer, our form over the last few weeks is relagation fodder. A poor start next season could see him axed by october. Our next manager is already at the club and waiting in the wings.

It's not though, is it? The last few weeks has seen us go unbeaten for 6 games before we lost the last 2. And losing the last 2 is understandable given that the players know they have nothing to play for.

I'd rather be in our position than Notts County's.

I've been impressed with Wellens so far. We'll see over the Summer, with his signings and his team for next season whether he is any good or not. I've more confidence in him than any of our recent managers since Di Canio.

4/18 points  definitely is relagation form!

It's always easier to break something down tahn build it back up.... and the scism at STFC has been happening for some years now.

It is an accumulation of small things, and similarly will only be restored by rebuilding those small things bit by bit.

And 2 wins, 4 draws and 2 defeats isn't. It depends how you choose to spin it......

Our recent form although it has faltered in the last 2 games isn't that bad, yes most draws we really should have easily won.
DWWDDDDLL in the last 9 games 11 from 30 points gained but only losing twice.

Since Wellens arrives its been LWWWLDDDLWDWLWWLLDWWDDDDLL thats 9W 9D 8L which over a whole season would give us 72 points, enough to have made the play offs this season.

Phil Browns record in his 31 matches was 10W 11D 11L but we are playing much better attractive football now than under Brown.

TBH most of the draws under Brown we didn't actually look like winning, I would say the exact opposite is true under Wellens, we look like winning all the draws except for our forwards poor finishing.

if we draw or lose today and then make a bad start next seaon, then our form under wellens would warrent the sack.
Say a start of 2 draws 2 defeats and a win, following on from the above form, would be suffent.
As I said his replacement is already lined up PJ will step straight in.

Wellens had a decent base to work from.

If, next season, he can replicate the performances of say Bury, Tranmere & M K away across a whole season with his own players then we will do very well.

I don't think many of the current squad will be rolling up for pre season.
With PJ on board it might be case of persuading players to bridge the north -  south divide as the main source of recruitment.

Welllens strikes me as a "live within 30 miles of the club" stickler, but I'm hoping that the regular encounters with Doughty waiting for London bound trains from northern outposts will continue next season.

But according to your bullshit conspiracy theory you still haven't backed up, that kind of form is actually the plan?

WTF

Repeatedly asked you to back this up and I'll ask again.

I think he spouts so much shite that he forgets what shite he's spouted.

Filed in the drawer labelled 80% Bollocks.

Sorry what was the question again?

How can Wellens warrant the sack when he has had to work with (predominantly) a pile of shit.  The few players he brought in have been positive.  He managed to get a tune out of that pile of shit for a fairly sustained period that tailed off towards the end.

 :huh:

That's the problem with Russian bots, very little storage capacity so can only reference back to the last 2 or 3 troll posts

Lots of commies on this site, does that include them comradski?

I know keeping up with things isn't your strong point but surely even you have noticed Russia hasn't been communist for nigh on 30 years now? Putin's more aligned with your side of politics, he's put a lot of money into the populists and far right in Europe and the US

Though to be fair, that's only because he knows they sow division and break democracies rather than being able to actually govern anything.

Bollocks

More bollocks.

There are very few Commies on here but plenty who lean left.  Communism has been proven a complete disaster.  A potentially noble idea doomed to failure as it requires humans to make it work.  It seems to always fall into Dictatorship world.

Left leaning is a commie, the only difference is socialist take a little longer to destroy everything.
Its never worked and it never will.

Are all politically right-leaning people Nazis then?

There needs to be serious progress on 2 of the big 3 next year. Promotion, Training ground, Ground purchase/development, and as the cherry, not get dumped out by strollers 1V in the cups early doors.

Like most supporters with realistic expectations, I anticipated a mid table finish. Sadly, next season is likely to be much of the same. 

Some posts on here need to go in a political thread...

..if only we had one.. :hmmm:

My lefty friends tell me, if your not part of the solution your part of the problem. So yes anyone who doesn't vote left commie is a racist Nazi. Glad to clear that up for you.

And you expect that because of the caliber of squad that we have signed for next season?  Or do you have a crystal ball or a flux capacitor?

Unless there is a significant shift in direction, I think that we can expect more of the same. 

They'll be no change in direction unless I can get the Flux Capitor fixed. infact there will be no movement at all.

My copy of Grays Sports Almanac says that relegation to the conference will happen in the 2022-23 season.

Power stating the budget for next season will remain at £2m.

So much for the naysayers.

The article in the Adver states our budget will be between £2m and £2.5m apparently, and that is way down on what Flipflop had at his disposal yet he still failed and fled the scene of the crime as soon as the going got a little rough.

I hope we are playing Mansfield next season and that he is not backed financially as heavily by them next season (£5m+ this term) as they finally see he is a failure.

Without Walkers goals this term they would be down where we are in the table, the same goes for Tranmere with Norwood and Bury with Maynard and Agard and Aneke at MKD, 4 average teams at best with a good goalscorer in the side who score 20+ and that is the difference between drawing games and grabbing that winning goal.

Wellens was bemoaning a high scoring striker on Saturday pre game so he agrees we need that for next season and he is obviously right.

If Wellens can get that one (or more) striker who will score 20+ next season mixed in with the rest of the teams goals we will get promoted.

£5+ at Mansfield? that's Di Canio money, thus proving any idiot  with that budget can't get out the league in the autos

What was Flitcrofts budget here?

Where has his Mansfield budget been made public?

Di Canio spent more than a fiver

Not sure if the value is public, but the owner has made it public that it's the biggest budget in their history somewhere.

From memory, PDC had about 4-4.5m. If Flitcroft fails to get them up on 5M (assuming it is 5M), then it's quite damning for him.

People seem to be able to comment on it quite defiantly, so assume it’s public as is our budget?

I doubt it is as much as suggested, but the owners have made public statements about it being a top three budget, and has been for three seasons in a row.  They fund it through sponsorship to increase the reported Turnover, which at least means the club isn't saddled with massive debt (although it is around 5m in the red).  Interestingly they file less financial information than Power does for STFC.

Redford Out!

You have now fallen foul of the copy, paste & punctuation police. Now known as the CPPP. Closely aligned to the Stasi type secret organisation. Expect at a minimum some dogs abuse, at worst never seeing your family again.

Thats clearly bollocks.....

Its plainly obvious you don't have friends....

I would imagine taking account of inflation and the hyper inflation which has infected football probably both figures are broadly similar?

According to Power - Flitcrofts budget was top 3 and said to be around £4m to £4.5m in his interviews which he does pre game almost every Saturday.

Mansfields budget is all over their forum and other forums in our league and is apparently common knowledge so it must have been made public and is said to be £6m per season this season.

You could argue that how does the "average fan" know well that appears to come from interviews such as Power does where they spill the beans on budgets, do I trust forums? no, do I trust Power and other managers/chairmen? well I do but many people obviously don't.

Many times these "budgets" are out in the public domain from the mouths of other managers who are jealous of the size of competing managers budgets, Cooper has been good at that in the past when he said his budget this season was not as high as Mansfield or Lincoln, when you see that Doidge is being paid in excess of £10k per week then what the hell are theirs?

Nottm Forest have said that Mansfield are covering Walkers full wages for the term of the loan which last year were in their accounts at £7.5k pw and Danny Rose turned down a move to Peterborough in August because Posh were not willing to match his £5k pw wages.

As for Mansfield and Flitcroft, an interesting thread here from their fans....


https://www.stagsnet.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=35654&sid=d90ab06a6509000f5ff8b113a62540ae

Yet again he has upset the fans of the team he manages, I especially like..

I claim Diplomatic Impunity :)

It's just been revoked.

(https://www.listenandlearn.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/PunctuationSpelling1.png)

You do stick with it.... even if the evidence is against.  So quickly on the budget thing... 17/18 our budget was reckoned about 7th.. when DF left we were 7th so about par.

We've had 3 promotions from Div 4 including 2 titles.... no player has scored 20+ goals let alone 2. Only one player, Rideout has scored 20 in Div 4... we didn't go up.  In fact I can't think of any season in my time where we've had 2, 20+ league goal scorers.

The last time we had an out an and out 20+ man in 15/16, it was sufficient to keep us up... but not when NA returned on loan the following year.

What is required is for what might be termed the front 3, to improve their strike rates.... so Keshi, Kaiyne and a combo of Bayo/Theo got 22 between them... Keshi 4, Kaiyne 6, B/T 12.  If K and K could get up to 8 and 10, whoever is the front man/men say 15/16, an extra dozen goals could do the job, if scored in key games.

Your grabbing key goals thing is valid....  this season had the extra dozen been scored in turning draws to wins... we win the league.

Paynter & Austin must have got 20 each
Mooney & Parkin couldn’t have been far off

Yes I do.

They didn't...  goals scored in PO's don't count as regular season but a stand alone thing.

Being close is not the same as doing it.

So even when the manager...you know...the one who picks the players says "we need a 20 goal striker", you as a fan say "no we don't"? :hmmm:

Whilst you are technically correct with your statement of two players scoring 20+

Paynter got 26 & Austin got 20
Parkin got 20 & Mooney got 19

Probably as close as you can get without going over 20

Debatable whether you can / should include Austin play off goal.

I take it to mean we need decent front man who'll score you some goals, as well as the link play.   You only need to look at  85/86, pissed the league with a record points haul... front man Colin Gordon got 16, 4 of which were pens.

Everybody wants one of these... right through from CL sides like Spurs, down to us.  An established player is top end in terms of value, and that includes any non league or Div 4 standard... so someone like Stockley went for close on a mill.

Not an option for us... so it will be a Richards style veteran or a punt... and then hope to get lucky. 

You include PO goals in PO stats... not in regulation league stats.

But thats not what HE said in the interview, Wellens stated he wants a 20 goals a season striker and lamented that we don't have one. He also said that most sides who do well have at least one, yet you still say we don't ever need one.

Of course teams can do well without one, thats obvious, but what he and I am saying is that we would be far better off in the league if we had one.

You are saying that you don't want a striker who can hit 20 goals a season? then you must want us to fail all the time?

But how is that any different for any other basement club. Stockley, Doidge, Norwood all fall into the ‘get lucky’ category.

Exactly, and every side in this division that has a striker who has scored over 15 goals has ended up either promoted or are in the play offs.

Nobody expects Wellens to be able to buy a 20 goal a season striker - even Lincoln who bought Akinde and paid big wages were hardly rewarded with his goal return (take out the pens).

So, yes, it will be luck if we get one - ditto the other 23 clubs.

Indeed, every club wants a striker who can grab 15 to 20 or more goals a season.

Its not rocket science to realise that a striker who can bag that many will ease the burden on the rest of the team.

Mansfield got a good one in Walker on loan, decent youngsters are out there if they themselves want to further themselves by dropping a few divisions.

I guess 'luck' (or good scouting) comes into it as we are certainly not able to blow budget on a proven striker (unless a Richards type). Well, I'd be surprised anyway.

But we certainly need one that can score no matter how it comes about.

Personally I'd like to see us get our target(s) nice and early, and one of the type I'd go for is a lower league 'gamble' rather than someone who has been around the block not scoring much. Can we afford such a luxury in a small squad though?

Someone like Norwood is interesting.... 28 years old, this is is his first league season.... moved from FGR to Tranny... 

I still think we need to go for numbers rather than rely on the punt coming off as the odds are against.

It may be his first full league season but in the Conference he has bagged 20, 14, 19, 19 and a 15 in the last few seasons so not a massive risk as hes obviously a proven scorer and has improved with better players around him.

Steady rather than  steller numbers.... the likes of Vardy, did 30 odd in just over 30 games, which is why Leicester took him.

So presumably why league clubs were unwilling to take a punt...

There was lower league clamour for Ricky Miller last season - or the one before - another failure.

Posh seem to be able to spot a striker on a regular basis.

Steady, absolutely, which is why he went to Tranmere rather than a team higher up the ladder.

Vardy was well known as a high scorer when at Halifax and Fleetwood, he had scouts of almost every club after him, we even put in a bid to sign him when PdC was in charge.

Which makes me wonder why teams have not taken a punt on Danny Rowe of Fylde yet.

169 goals in 4 seasons, 26 goals this season with just 3 of them being penalties.

I can only think that at 30 he is considered too old by many clubs.

I know nothing about Rowe, not that it means a lot.  However, I think we have to be realistic, I know for some that is difficult, but I just don't see Power sanctioning the signing of a proper Div 4 style 20+ goal man.

Think back to Wise/Poyet... They wanted Rickie Lambert after he'd done a 20+ Div 4 goal season in 06 at Dale.... we couldn't afford it, even when we were spending money we didn't have... he went to Rovers for £200K.... Wise and Poyet didn't hang about for long.

If Wellens thinks Power is going to back his wish list, then he's not going to be around for long either.

Being realistic means looking at how to get more goals out of Kaiyne and Keshi.... Theo would be semi realistic, not that he's prolific, but does put in a shift.  Only semi because he'll no doubt be looking for a better deal than here, so we would be a fall back if nothing else happens.

When I talk of numbers the sort of thing in mind is the 06/07 season.  We had over the season 6 what you might call front men.... none particularly prolific, but they scored 33 between them.  In the early part fo the season, it was Roberts and Peacock who both finished on 10, Royce Brownlie chipped in a couple, and Lukas was coming through from the youths and got 5 important goals. When Sturrock came in Blair got 3 for him and then Barry Corr at deadline a further 3. Enough to paraphrase Power "limp over the line"

Shearer and White 89/90 - 21 & 20  (probably just shy of 20 if you take the play off games against Blackburn out, think it is 20 & 18.  Interestingly, the swindon-town-fc.co.uk site includes play off games in the league stats.  Either way we got promoted with two near 20 league goal a season strikers in the team.

Think if we add the two DV listed, the evidence shows having two at around 20 creates a promotion hunting team at worst.  Who'd have thunk it?

Once again the myth that Power doesn't spend on players rather ignoring the £350,000 spent on Woolery, I cannot imagine Anderson came for nothing etc etc.

What did we pay Liverpool for LV? I have seen £400k suggested, that cannot be right?

I still don't believe that 350k figure, no real reason, just find it somewhat unlikely.

<awaits account evidence to contrary>

It was North of 150k - FGR announced the number they had been outbid on as I remember it.  The BBC reported the 350k number.

We've done this so many times... these figures are always dependent on outcomes... further 350 in today's money isn't 350 13 years ago.  Kaiyne came having played 20 odd league games and scored 2 goals... a player like a Stockley, who scored near on 20 for a couple of seasons with Exeter went for 750K that's the sort of figure for proven... and needs to be reflected in wages.

THink back to Ritchie... we'd turned down a mill for him in the summer, and then sold for 400K... no doubt much of the mill was on outcomes, but when we sold we just needed cash up front not coming over the horizon.

I could be wrong, but wasn't the LV one structured a bit like the Loungo one - we essentially pay the fee if we sell for more than the fee?

Anderson was quoted as six figures at the time, I'd imagine not much into that realm though.  The FGR Chairman outed us on the Woolery one, if I remember correctly.  Some of that no doubt would be to placate his own fans a little byt pointing out how crazy it was to compete.

RIchsrd B is free to do as he pleases, but PO's are seen as stand alone comps, a bit like cups.  It's no good saying that because 2 players nearly scored 20+... that 2 players did score 20+.  Perhaps you're being infected by the Trump virus.

Regardless, it shows Power can convince players to come here when he thinks it is the right thing to do - potential profit for him.  What he hasn't done is spend transfer fee's on anything else (not that many clubs down here do).  Last summer we got Daigouraga and Doughty to come down here - suggests we can fund signings.  They were both decent additions, the problem was Brown had also signed another 3 or 4 central midfielders before them and spunked the remainder of his budget on those two.  Now, if Wellens can convince Power to invest in those types of players but in the positions we need, that might be better!

Umm, I didn't claim they did score 20 in the league - I said, and you quoted, that having two players around 20 creates a promotion hunting team.  I dug for those two because I remembered their total goals for the season both being close to 30.  We also had McLoughlin in double figure over the entire season as well.

It's pretty easy to summise that having goalscorers increases your chances of success.  It doesn't guarantee it though - you need to be secure at the other end as well.  Didn't Clive Allen bag 49 in a season for Spurs once without winning much, thanks to Coventry?  But, having goals in a team is key - if you have one or two players who have the knack of scoring, you are off to a good start.  The top 7 teams show that this year.  Of course you can get by without a 20 goal person, but it is harder - you need a mean defence and/or a load of players getting to 10.  We don't have them, we won't have them, so getting a 20 plus player would be a benefit for the here and now.

Think you're way out here.... it's a competitive market, agents know which clubs are prepared to pay a premium to get what they want. Within that market will be a few odd players like a Doughty, who perhaps isn't so bothered by money, if a club is a better fit into life style, relocation etc.   Matty Taylor probably came as we were near his home, if say Carlisle had wanted him they have had to pay the premium.

Preston last season a classic example.... sort of defender Wellens says he likes stick your head in etc, was always going to Mansfield as they pay more.

What we usually get around this time... is the couple of unrealistic "marquee" signings rumour  Thought Longstaff might have been the first but it's his bro.

A classic was Tom Bradshaw, has scored a few for the other STFC, we were so say intersted and went to WAlsall, has subsequently made 1.5 mill on the transfer market.

That's obvious and not the point at issue... which is what is realistic in our present state.

For me, I don't see Power sanctioning the acquisition of the 2 20+ Div 4 proven golascorers that PV would like or even the one that RW says he wants.

Therefore realistically we have to look at other ways of achieving success... hence my raising 06/07 where we had 2 10 goal forwards, and other bodies at vatrious times who chipped in, and was enough to get us up.

I was told at the time it was circa 50k + add ons and a sell on. Total expected was around 400k,

Wasn’t the whole Ricky lambert thing just tails on a wind up?

Entirely possible, if so a good one, At the time,  having recruited Wise and Poyet, it seemed within the realms of likelihood, that we might spend 200K on a Div 4 journeyman from Rochdale, who went to Rovers.

The Rickie Lambert link was indeed total horse shit.

Reg’s wish comes true....

We're hosting an open training session at the County Ground, next Tuesday, for fans to meet the players and watch them train!

📆 30th July
⌚️ 10:30
📌 County Ground

#STFC 🔴

Doesn't our Right Back have some experience as well?  Fuck, has anyone know anyone into Tyromancy to check if next season is nailed on for promotion?

Good stuff  :)   Let's hope there's a good turn out of nippers.

Yes, but in 99-00 and 10-11 our right backs were experienced and we finished bottom by miles. Does this mean we're doomed?

bbc

There's a prediction bit in today's Guardian.... we get in as a PO contender, mostly on the back of the hack having heard of Fryers.  More worrying for Saturday is that Scunny are reckoned top 3 material.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jul/29/league-two-2019-20-preview

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/30/league-two-2018-19-season-preview

Just for comparison here is their attempt from last year, showing Notts County tipped for promotion and Tranmere looking to avoid a relegation fight.

Ace.  :)

Not exactly a good argument for the hack knowing that much. 

General consensus is we'll finish between 6th and 10th unless something miraculous happens in the next 4 weeks transfer wise.

Why does it have to be miraculous?

Has general consensus factored in the January transfer window? Or has that been abolished?

2 previews, I haven't as yet listened to the podcast but in the other we are touted as finishing 3rd.

http://d3d4football.com/d3d4-football-podcast-ep91-league-two-2019-20-preview/

https://welovebetting.co.uk/wlb-season-preview-2019-20-league-two-team-verdicts/

Prediction: See last year (top half, poss playoffs).

No idea about many of the players to be honest. Don't have enough goals in us for autos (IMO). That could change over the coming week(s).

I think if we can indeed get in the 3 or 4 attacking options Wellens has spoke about then I think we can challenge for autos definately, as we are then just outside of the play offs for me 9th ish.

First month of the season gone and it's looking pretty good.
Not been outplayed by anyone and could have maintained an unbeaten start if not for a poor decision.

We are 4 points up when compared to the equivalent games against the same opposition last year.

The overall play has been very good, bearing in mind that the team is still gelling.
That needs to be sustained and also look to see games out when taking the lead at places like Cheltenham and keep a clean sheet in games similar to yesterday.

Looking ahead to September hopefully we can go on an unbeaten run.

One thing that has been very noticeable is the reconnect between fans and team.
During the warm ups, the level of support during games and the appreciation shown afterwards.

Early days yet but signs of things moving "forwaaard" on and off the pitch.

‘Looking ahead to September hopefully we can go on an unbeaten run.’

I did allude to the fixture list a short while ago, in as much I suggested we could go unbeaten all the way up to Cambs away. Maybe further with Lady Luck on our side. #invincibles, well except one.

We've far more about us than a 9th prediction. Stay clear of injuries, and reverse the bad luck/calls. We will finish top 4 i'm confident.

We do, that was way back before the start of the season, I would think we will...or should make autos with a couple more signings before tomorrows deadline, without them I think we can still make play offs.

Playoffs are doable.

autos I'm not so confident for the reasons.
1. squad is flimsy after first 13 or so
2. defence looks a bit shaky
3. Doyle and Yates can both score, but we look a bit reliant on them. They will go through sticky spells, plus prospect of January recall. not sure where else the goals are coming from..

1 may be addressed tomorrow
3. may not happen.

I'll put us in the 4-9 category, feeling strangely optimistic so I'll go 5th but we shouldn't rule out autos

Feels good, don't it. :-)

right now you can feel the fans waiting for something to cheer about rather than waiting for something to moan about.

I'll be back for Colchester or Newport  :)

Bugger.

This may come back to Reg haunt me, but based on watching all the league games bar the one we were robbed in, I'll stand by my comment at half time yesterday.  Our team has the feel of the 95/96 team at the moment - several of the players look better than the division and the first team looks like it is the dominant team in games (not always winning, or even drawing, but they just look the better team).

In that season teams eventually sat in against us and at times frustrated us.  We know from last season this was our Achilles heel, which is why Yates and Doyle looks so promising.  Having a goalscorer to help out when we are dominating is going to be the difference vs. last season once Wellens had sorted us out.

The unknown is how often we get to put that first eleven out - hopefully we stay clear of injuries.

In defence we still look like we could get beat up at set pieces, or if a team can put decent crosses in against us.  Against that though we seem to create much more.

I would not be surprised to see us in the Auto spots come May, and feel confident about Play Offs, as things stand.

95/96.... you're having a laugh.  That season we'd been relegated only because there were 4 down, had players who'd been in the Prem side, had Peter Thorne, who was a very decent striker at Div 3 level, and then spent half a mill on the Chief to back him up.   Alison/Thorne was probably about as good as it gets for Div 3.

Realistically all you can say atm is that as things stand it looks like we could be in for a decent season

I can say what I like.

I am not saying we look like that team of 95/96, or referencing any of the context about why we had a good team.

I am saying the way we look in games has a similar feel to it - that we look better than the other team.  In all five I have watched, that is how it has felt.

Scunthorpe - we looked likely to score more than we got, least dominant overall though I'd day.
Carlisle - we looked much better than them
Exeter - we could have had several more
Cheltenham - we looked a far better team than they did until the sending off
Morecambe - head and shoulders above them in the first 45

In those games we still didn't win two of them and have given teams chances they didn't take, but against that we could have had two or three goals more in some of them.  Clear cut chances.

That season is the last time I remember having that feeling.  We've had good seasons, and maybe the early part of the Cooper season was close.  The previous two promotions from this Division were a bit of the inverse of each other.  The Wise start was great but we never looked head and shoulders better, just well organised.  Di Canio's season built momentum, and I'd say we looked very good in the second half of that season.  Regardless of the reasons, 95/96 we just looked good, I'm saying we look good 6 games into this season.

I feel that we are over analysing a handful of games. Let's just enjoy the fact that the team is probably exceeding expectations at this early stage.

My analysis goes no further than this - When you follow a team year in, year out there are times (like 95-96 as RobertT alluded to) when you KNOW you have a good side. A top 3 finish is a realistic and reasonable expectation to have with this team and that's a good feeling, which I am enjoying very much.

Does anyone know though, exactly what the recall situation is with Doyle and Yates?  Those two really are the key to how the season pans out.

Looking good and getting results aren't necessarily the same thing.  One thing you can see is that in almost all our auto seasons we've conceded fewer than a goal a game.  Being good defensively and getting something up the other end is still the best way of going about it.

Audrey alludes to whether we can do it with being defensively sketchy, and yes it is possible, but I'm looking for signs of tightening up at the back before getting too carried away.

We’ve looked better than every team we’ve played so far.

I haven’t looked at the table, not interested yet but looking better than every opposition faced so far is a very good early season sign

Precisely - it is still possible to fuck up a season with a team that seems like it should do well.  But, in the five games I've seen it felt like we were a step above the opposition.  We still didn't win them al, but they were good to watch, fun some might say, and we were the team thinking we should have got more from that.  I doubt any of the three we have beaten have gone away thinking they should have taken a point or more.  Are we going up? who knows, too much can happen.  Right now it looks and feels good.

I'm enjoying watching the team play more than I have done for years and am looking forward to going to games again. That'll do for now. Too early to start thinking about much else.

I think we might just about manage to stay up.

39 points off safety, far too early to get complacent about staying up. When's our first relegation battle six-pointer?

Better ask Old man Steptoe

I agree, I had a nasty feeling ref the Williams season before a ball was kicked.

I do feel we might do something this season.

According to Rotherham announcement they have a recall option in January. No idea about Doyle but certainly hope not, though they may need him off wage bill to stay in budget.

We really need to find a way of making Yates permanent in Jan then if at all possible - Perhaps Mr Morfuni can assist :hmmm: ...the Doyle deal is a strange one - I always find it weird when a player goes on loan to another club in the same division, how can he be good enough for one team but not the other? (although I'm delighted we got him of course). This was even more weird given that he started their first 3 games. I can only assume that to all intents and purposes it was a permanent move which for some reason(s) suited both sides for it to be done as a loan for now...

I think some loan deals can have a permanent signing option included.

Get something from Orient and then back-to-back home games and we could be flying by the time we head to Cambridge away. Or we could have lost all 3.

For now, we look good. It's fun. We look like scoring a hatful. We look like conceding regularly too.

Top 7 minimum.

I imagine a lot of loan moves now are more about freeing up wages than the actual player themselves.
Wouldn’t surprise me if Bradford are stretched or wanted to free up his wages to maybe bring a striker on loan from a Premier League team or something.

Everyone of Yates’ goals have a touch of SSP about them.

Don’t want to go all Reg but so far it looks like our season might hinge on what happens with our two loan strikers

His goals do have an element of SSP about them but unfortunately hes nowhere near as good a player as SSP, his hold up play is not great and his passing and lay offs can be poor, he does run around and chase things down well and he does seem to be playing well with Doyle.

I think you are correct about the loan wages, its more to do with freeing wages than players needing to get away, certainly with players from L1 and L2 going out on loan.

So if Doyle has - hypothetically of course - scored 20 by Christmas, are Bradford going to somehow find that money that they're currently unable to pay him, down the back of a director's sofa and recall him?

We really need to sign them both on perms - easier said then done I know.

Could be, we don't know enough of how the deal is structured but it could be possible. Although if he had scored 20 by Christmas then surely he would want to stay and complete the season as him and Wellens/Hunt go back years and get on really well, unlike Doyle and Bowyer who don't see eye to eye.

Bradford fans really dislike Doyle and a few with common sense see he is a decent striker that was used in the wrong team/formation. I highly expect Bradford to recall him if he banging in the goals, at the very least to derail our season.

Think about it this way, if  we are 3rd and Bradford are between 7th and 3rd place in January. They will see all our goals coming from the player they can recall. They recall him and instantly we are down a proven goalscorer with no one seemingly able to come in and replace him. We will start dropping points due to not having enough goals in the side and bradford will see it as one less team to threaten them in the top 7. Very smart espionage there if that's what they do.

Somebody really needs to find out if his deal includes an option to recall

The classic example of this sort of thing was Dalglish buying Duncan Shearer.... although from our end, PdC so say wanting Cuntstubble was funny as fuck.

Was just thinking of the Shearer thing - I think Dalglish even admitted to it in later years, or at least some one did even if it wasn't Dalglish himself.

That's what I was trying to get at really - Was hoping Chang or some one else ITK would have an idea  ;)

Yep Dalglish did it at a corporate at Aintree.

Thought so...cunt...Dalglish that is, not you Reg, obviously  ;)

I'm not sure that Welles / Jewell are that daft I'd be surprised if there was that option in there, but equally it goes both ways giving us the option to send him back in January if he wasn't scoring for e.g.

Those saying we should be signing him in a permanent deal, would he be able to score thee goals at a higher level, that may be in thinking about a loan deal

Town have received another 250 tickets for Orient :pint:

Now all ticket with that batch, no pay on day

That confused me for a second.

Did occur to me as I typed it
  :nod:

I havent really thought that hard, but I dont remember really hearing his name in the press/scoring charts after that little humdinger.

What does that bring the total allocation to now then?

1350

I make it 1350... + at least 2 in the home end...me and Mrs Ooh going with an O's supporting mate...

On the Duncan Shearer question, he (Shearer) also refers to it in his autobiography - apparently  he questioned why he wasn’t playing and was told that he had been signed to stop him scoring for STFC who were competing for promotion at the time.

Sidi, Grant and Doughty playing against Brentford today.

Henry, Reid, Broadbent, Curran, Romanski, May, Doughty, Grant, Sanokho, Twine, Woolery.

Tasty for a friendly!

I assume if Sanokho is playing the international clearance has arrived (or at least we still expect it to do at some stage?)

This season's Milan Misun

That's a more than capable reserve side! On paper at least.

0-0 at HT

May with a volley cleared off the line. Henry called into action from a free-kick.

Swindon 0-1 Brentford

They had a couple of million pound players playing. Sounds like not much happened. Minutes in the tank, though.

Interesting that Benda isn't in that side.

https://www.brentfordfc.com/news/2019/september/swindon-town-v-brentford-bcd-friendly-04.09.19/

Can someone explain what this Duncan Shearer thing is about please? I'm not too clued up on that.

It arose from speculation about whether Bradford would recall Doyle if he was going well and we were threatening to compete with them for promotion. It's not quite like the Shearer case, where Blackburn in their Jack Walker moneybags days bought our best-performing striker in order to derail our competition with them for promotion to the first division, as it was then. Of course, we were complicit by accepting their bid.

He (Shearer) was scoring goals for fun for us, and we were challenging for promotion alongside Blackburn, and others.

Blackburn, then managed by Kenny Dalglish, bought Shearer from us. It transpired that Blackburn did not buy him so he could score goals for them, but to stop him from scoring goals for one of their promotion rivals (us).

There is a chance that Bradford could do similar with Doyle.

Orient game sold out after allocation increased twice. Isn't this now the 3rd successive away game we've sold out? That alone tells you a lot about how we're shaping up - it's fun and exciting to be a Town fan again

Amazing support. I know Exeter and Cheltenham aren't exactly far and I imagine our away games after this will be back to 4-500 but it's still good to see. Good crowds at home too (if Morecambe brought more than 7 people that would have been 7K+ too).

Great what some simple engagement can do. Ben Hooke deserves a payrise

For the first time since PdC was in charge I am looking forward to watching games again.

There is a feeling surrounding the club of advancement and happy faces, something that has been missing a long long time at STFC.

We are playing decent football, scoring goals, not collapsing when we go a goal behind. Looking fairly solid all over the pitch (central defence slightly excepted) but I feel we will win way more than we will lose this season.

Its great for the fans to have some optimism again.

It is. Really looking forward to every game as it approaches.

It wasn't that long ago that football felt like a chore for me; one evening I even chose to do some work instead.

TBF 4-500 away fans is still decent in League 1 never mind League 2

It is, so far this season in the 3 games we have played at the CG we have only had a total number of 726 away fans and thats spread over 3 games.

That does include Carlisle and Morecambe, but the point still stands! I was missing the days of full away ends. Hopefully get some good numbers to the games up here in the North West after Christmas, assuming things continue to go well.


He's done really well. I'd argue things on the pitch are having as much/more of an impact though.

Looking at the clubs in our division this season I would say that the only clubs who will being decent followings will be -

800-1,000 Bradford, Plymouth
500-800 Cheltenham, FGR(if they are doing well), Exeter, Walsall, Orient, Newport
All the rest will be well under 500 most probably well under 300.

We will take 1,000+ to Exeter, Cheltenham, Newport, FGR, Walsall, Northampton and probably get to around the 800 mark for Stevenage, Plymouth, Crawley, Bradford, Colchester, Cambridge and Salford(possibly because they are new).

There will be very few we will get under 400, especially so if we carry on playing as we are.

I will ask my Bradford supporting work colleague how many they anticipate bringing

They only took 600 to Stevenage and 1,200 to Crewe and 1,800 to Grimsby.

If they are up near the top of the table they will bring a fair few I would think.

I've seen a lot of posts like this but yours is the most recent to quote so this isn't specifically only you. I think the cb partnership have been really good and conroy has been fantastic. Are the goals conceded really their fault?

Against Morecombe- it was all Rose's fault trying a silly turn in his own half, Northampton was offside, carisle was errors from full back  :hmmm: friers fault? but he is an attacking full back so you have to take both sides with that criticism.  

didnt see the scunthorpe game but that was a clean sheet and same with exeter and chelt.

Have i missed something with this concerning defence or is that because we are scoring a lot the defence is being looked at as an obvious weakness?

I can understand your comment, because we look better in attack the defence now looks weak in comparison, but for me all the defenders have been guilty of several mistakes in every game they have played except for Hunt.

Reid and Fryers have been guilty of letting players past them far too often but we have not defended the balls coming into the box as well as I think we should have.

Baudry and Conroy have both made many mistakes that with better finishing would have been costly, both guilty of at times very poor distribution.

Baudrey has been ok in the main but has always got 2 or 3 mistakes in his locker per game, the same applies to Conroy, his heading has improved but his stopping has gone backwards IMO.

As for goals directly attributable to them, I would say the 2nd at Cheltenham should have been cut out by Baudry.

Saturday the striker got in between both of them to score when neither was anywhere near the shooting player.

The goal at Exeter the striker who scored from 8 yards out was totally unmarked and was right between Conroy and Baudry under no pressure from either.

The 2nd goal vs Carlisle Baudry lets the striker accross his body 2 yards out so was at fault there.

They look like they will become a good pairing but they are both a bit behind the game at times and not reading it that well.

Just my opinion of course.

In basic terms I would imagine that if either of them were not prone to mistakes and had consistently good distribution they would not be playing for Swindon Town in the fourth tier!

We look shaky at the back at times. We've not conceded that many, but it could easily have been more.

Baudry is the biggest culprit for me... too many unforced errors. Hopefully, he will settle into it though because he looks nervy at times.

I concur with that totally, but we have had many defenders who have looked far less prone to silly mistakes so often, and in this division. Nelson, Broadbent (last season), Preston and Flint for example.

Aren’t all L2 defenders a bit shite? The benefit with Conroy and Baudry is their style of play is paramount to the team’s overall style. Sure, they could boot it like the majority of donkey defenders but that then nullifies our midfield gems.

Also, the generally shit strikers aren’t always going to convert from every error made.

On balance, keep things as they are.

My biggest disappointment this season defensively has been Broadbent.

Obviously we aren't privvy to whats gone on in the Summer but hes a pale shadow of his first few months with us.

So much so that Wellens publically lambasted him after the Chelsea game, which cannot do much for his confidence whether deserved of not, it was an unexpected criticism of someone who has suffered from problems off the pitch (apparently) and maybe a little unwarranted all things considered.

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/sport/17820096.tom-broadbent-little-catch-swindon-town-manager-richie-wellens-eye-chelsea-defeat-plus-latest-injury-news/?ref=ar

fair enough cheers. yh i can see we have been let off the hook at times and i agree (against morcambe they missed a sitter before half time and could easily have been 3-2 at the break) but in a weird sense i don't count that. similarly we should have scored a lot more if our strikers had been better its all relative to me. the saturday goal surely can't be attributed to a cb issue as rose gave it away and they were stranded.

i think they compliment each other well but agree of the 2 Baudry has looked the more shaky- as a side, in the utd pre-season friendly he won every single attacking corner albeit off target and thought we might have a goal in his locker this season.

agree about broadbent, i really liked the look of him last season- conroy to me was always a really good player but suffered under flitcroft/brown being in and out the team constantly and this is what will happen to broadbent- its very hard to come in at the back and be good from the off- yesterdays game and others a like will help though.

Conroy featured in 7 of 8 games under Flitcroft, before pulling up lame v Stevenage, which finished his season.

At the time Flitcroft said he was a good player, and it was a shame because they were starting to get some defensive work into him, which he needed.

Was at Stevenage back in March. wasnt too long after Broadbent joined and he was truly awful that night. Mind you he wasn't the only one.

Diagouraga looked like a competition winner that night, truly abysmal. As you rightly said, so was pretty much everyone else that night.

Yes! Those two were my pick of the worst that night.

I saw Dave start at crawley at the beginning of last season. Wasnt much better and it was then I realised he'd been 'Nalised'

More a case of we’ve been Taribo West’d

At least we knew Nalis was old.

I was lucky enough to be part of the match sponsorship for the Northampton game. As part of the deal, we got to meet Wellens, Hunt, Chorley and Jewell before the game. Wellens said that Bradford do not have a January recall. He did also say that he wanted five new players due to the lack of depth but was totally dependant on outgoings. I thought it was clear he was referring to Toums.     

ITK   ;)  Great to hear what Wellens said about Doyle. 

Especially after having had the wind put up with all the historical parallels drawn with Blackburn and Dunc.

Indeed, that puts that issue to bed, lovely

Two months in and it’s still so far so good.

The team just needs to carry on with what they are doing.
Yes, they’ll need to do it a bit better on occasion and take the chances when they come along, particularly against the big physical sides.

In terms of any tweaks, keep Fryers in central defence alongside Baudry when he comes back.
Two ball playing centre backs are crucial to the way we play.
The Trophy game should be an opportunity to get Broadbent and May up to speed and also hopefully give Curran a chance.

Wellens praised May in the week so I can understand why he put him on yesterday.
Maybe it’s now time for Doughty to start. Was playing very well up until the suspension.
Based on yesterday he probably needs to be in from the start and is likely to chip in with a few goals as well.
Rose could be the one to drop out. He’s done ok but Doughty offers much more going forward and Grant looks like he can handle the DM role on his own at the moment.

We missed Keshi yesterday. Hopefully he'll be fit for Bradford.
Four games against teams currently in the top half coming up in October, including two of the relegated sides from L1.

And a word on the much maligned (by some) Ellis Iandolo.
Possibly the most improved player so far and just goes to show what the backing of the manager and a run in the first team can do for a young player.

We're a point better off than the Flitcroft season after 11 games, so in the mix, but there are a number of very obvious  question marks, the answers to which will unfold over the next say 10 games.

Doing better than I expected. Depth of squad is obviously an issue.

Lets step back and take a look at our 3 defeats this season.

Northampton, the goal should never have stood, Williams was 3 yards offside.

Colchester, we lost our important centre back early in the game which caused chaos at the back and the shape of the team was upset, that part was out of our hands somewhat.

Newport, we lost our important centre back early in the game which caused chaos at the back and the shape of the team was upset.

Yes pre season we thought we had a glut of decent centre backs, Conroy, Baudry, Broadbent, Ballard, Curran and Fryers who could fill in if he was required. Even Romanski was a possible.

Now we have Curran who doesnt seem close enough to the first team yet, Broadbent has had a disastrous drop in form and seems unpickable, Fryers looked well out of position yesterday at times, Baudry still out for another week or so, Ballard out for the season and it seems the same could well happen to Conroy.

Do we go out into the free transfer market and see if we can get someone in? he could well take a few weeks to get up to pace and fitness, Ferdinand was mentioned a few weeks back as a for instance.

Or do we risk Curran or even Broadbent?

Grant filled in fine there for 90% of the game, as did Fryers, but its neithers favourite position and TBH we need Grant protecting the central defenders anyway.

Yes we won't come up against a team with such a massive team and gameplan like Newport often but we need contingency plans, to lose 3 of your first choice CB's so early in the season doesn't bode well, especially with what appears to be 2 out for the season and Baudry yet to really impress when he does play.

Wellens has to be at fault for the decision to bring on May yesterday instead of Curran or Broadbent, or why not bring on a more attacking option in Doughty, May is not anywhere near good enough for the 1st team and should be used as a last resort.

Grant fille din really well but hes not and never will be a centre back and was badly missed in midfield, yes Newport bypassed midfield a lot yesterday so I can see Wellens thinking that he may not be needed there but we miss him chasing balls down and May could barely find a red shirt when he did get the ball.

This is where the experience of Jewell needs to come to the fore, he needs to take Wellens to one side and get to the bottom of his decision which was clearly wrong. Power has said a few times recently that Wellens has a great working relationship with Jewell.

It could just be naivity or inexperience, but its something Wellens needs to look at himself over and learn from his mistakes.

A few are bemoaning a lack of a Plan B. Tbh, I reckon our Plan A is good enough on most occasions and should be persevered with.

Baby and bath water and all that

Absolutely, it seems that when we lose a player we fail to go back to plan A, which was working all along.

Our passing always seems to go to pot and we stop doing the simple stuff that works, balls to feet, quick passing and running at the opposition with speed.

We only started getting back to doing that at the start of the 2nd half, then we made the substitution and we conceded within a minute or so as we reorgansized the defence the defence for the 2nd time, Newport capitalized on that change.

We don't need a plan B as such we just need to get back asap to the working plan A.

plan A went out the window when Grant was sacrificed from midfield.

Seeing as it wasn't my fault, I shall be returning for the Plymouth league game.

Wellens still has credit in the bank, he has improved us since our latest relegation to Div 4, that is the first requirement.

At the same stage we're a point better off than under Flitcroft and 4 under Brown.  Whether he can maintain that improvement and turn into something meaningful by season's end is moot.

 For me there were at least 3 obvious question marks going into the season 1. Too many loans (a Wellens complaint from last season) 2. Having too many players in the squad who couldn't be picked (a Wellens complaint from last season) 3. Too many players with questionable fitness records.

The upcoming dozen games up until Christmas should give us a pretty good idea if we can enter 2020 with any optimism.

It may only be 1 point better off than Flitcroft, but at least 8 of the games have been well worth the watch and even the three losses have been better than many wins under Flitcroft.  I'd take this as an upgrade and day of the week.  After Saturday my feelings were more of "we are going to get some of those" rather than  worry, and after the wins I've often been feeling "that was great to watch" rather than "at least we got the point".

At the end of the day it's about getting results. It's very difficult to play sexy football over a 46 game season, great when you can but when you can't it helps if you can find another way.  Think that's what BD means when he talks of no plan B.

 FWIW I would say ColU and Newport were every bit as bad as anything Flitcroft served up, just in a slightly different way, meaning you can tell early doors that you're in trouble but can't do anything about it, so a certain inevitabilty in the outcome.

 Our problems atm are quite simple amd best illustrated by corners..... look like conceding, rarely look like scoring.

We're 2 points adrift from the top.

Every point so far has been thoroughly deserved, and we could have had more.

That's how we are shaping up.

Haven't seen us in the flesh this season, but from what has been posted on here I would say we are shaping up OK. Certain posters seemed to relish the idea we would be in relegation trouble by the end of August which we aren't, whilst the demise of Bury has also made our job that little bit easier?

Early days still but starting to remind me of the Kingy 03/04 play off team.

Good strikers who will get goals
Midfield with creativity
Porous defence

Can’t see us snatching many 1-0 wins but a fair few 3-2s

One of those nearly seasons.... we've had a few, where at times we were very good and others less so, and just falling short, which is always highly annoying.

Kingy certainly liked a donkey defender... he had Reeeves, Heywood, Adi Viveash, and supplemented with O'Hanlon and Jerel.

Perhaps if he'd gone done the PdC route, of having more of a footballer in there alongside a donkey it might have worked better.  PdC sticking Alan Mac in there.

I’m sure we had Miglioranzi in the back three for a preseason game that year, maybe Portsmouth.
That donkey defence needed better protection but our defensive midfielder was Hewlett who was useless

Newport > Flitcroft Swindon, not in style, but in looking good at it
Colchester => Flitcrofy Swindon, they seemed more like a one game plan than they knew how to do it out of instinct

I meant the performances from us, as being as bad.

How others play is up to them.

By bad, I don't mean a head count of how many times your centre half hoofs it into row z or your defensive midfielder gives the ball away, more an overall view and feel for the likelihood of winning the game as it evolves. Of course if the basics are wrong it has a knock on effect, but you can tell if you have some control on the game or whether the opponent has, and if so what are the chances of wrestling back control.

The 2 games mentioned I'd say we lost control and losing looked inevitable, this isn't a characteristic that encourages belief you're looking at an auto side.  However I accept that in both injuries provided some mitigation, so it is a trend that can be reversed. Let's see.

It's still too early. You can present both the extreme positive and extreme negative in equal light.

The three games we've lost have been caused by a terrible ref and two disastrous injuries. Away from home we look fantastic.

Or

We've been found out by every half-decent team we've played and only beaten teams 15-24. Defeat looks inevitable against anyone outside the bottom 10, particularly at home.

Realistically neither take is useful, or true.

We're a decent side. Margins at the top of L2 are small. We've got enough to compete for autos, but could easily be derailed by key injuries, player exits and managerial exits. The same as another 6-8 teams.

Right now, we're in touch. Go along at close to 2 points per game and stay in the hunt. That's all that matters.  

The other side of this particular coin are the other clubs. We only have to be less shite than 21 of the rest.

Is there really any club in this league that is much better than us - let alone 3.

PP is right.

to quote somebody or other about treating the imposters of triumph and disaster the same.

oh, fancy a Bakewell tart now

He played there in a league game - Rotherham away?

That was as a back 4. The following season and post Kingy.

Our first away of the season, in December

If my memory serves me right