Thetownend.com

since you opened it up, will never get my support, wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire, I'd rather keep RCC. uncomfortable that 1p of my money would go to this cunts wages, and I hope he fucks off elsewhere or does his ACL in training.

other than that...

A respectable first team squad would contain two competent goalkeepers - something we don't currently own.

It's hardly as if Brown won't recruit any outfield players until we sign a goalkeeper FFS.

I get the impression Vigs needs proper competition to possibly offset his unfortunate habit of disappearing up his own arse!

I agree, and I'm not sure I could pay on the gate knowing where some of the money was going, IMO he should have shown some humility, fucked off and retrained as plumber to earn a living, rather rubbing the family of those beautiful boys faces in it, man’s a cunt and if he turns up at SN1 I'm out.

I wasn't aware we could only conduct one transfer at a time...

I rue the day you ever make a fucking mistake.

I'm sure he feels far worse about what happened than we do. What would make some people happy? He was homeless/destitute? He'll never have a clean slate that's the nature of it, but most can and do try to make amends when some un pre mediated tragedy has occurred. Everyone wishes they'd made a different decision about something I'm sure.

what did he do, I honestly aint got a clue

I think drink or drug drivers who cause the death of innocent children should be given a whole life term or the death penalty.

Personality I don't pay towards the salary of a double child killer, just a person thing, but good luck to you all.
 

In 2012 last time he was training with us, Flashheart said this :-


These were also my feelings at the time and still are now.

It's obviously a very difficult, emotive subject. However people feel, there is no right or wrong point of view.

I personally think its interesting to compare how people reacted to Jimmy Davis's tragic death and how they reacted to Luke McCormick - the same people I'm sure in a lot of cases. I've not researched the incidents in microscopic detail but I'm pretty sure its fair to say that what each of them did was virtually identical. They both got into and drove a high powered vehicle on a motorway only a short amount of time after consuming a shed load of alcohol - so much so that there is no way they could not have known they were over the limit.

The consequences of each one's actions clearly were totally different. However, these could easily have been reversed. Luke McCormick didn't intend to kill two innocent kids and severely injure their dad. Conversely, it was only good fortune (if you can call it that) that meant that Jimmy Davis didn't kill anyone else but himself. McCormick lived, Davis died - could easily have been the other way round.

McCormick is reviled (understandably), Davis attains virtual saint hood. That's certainly what I remember of that very sad time in 2003. But how ironic - Neither of them showed any regards for human life and behaved in an unimaginably selfish, reckless manner and destroyed lives but are thought of in such contrasting terms.

Fantastic post.

Absolutely....a great post which we could all reflect on.

Whereas I have never drove under the influence of drink or drugs, and if did make the choice to drink and drive and to use my car as a weapon to kill an innocent person, then I would expect a whole of life term and no mercy whatsoever,  if you choose to live by the sword, then you must be prepared to die by the sword, I’m sure many drink drivers find this sanctimonious, while their victims would not.

I can’t say that I was looking forward to next season, but I would have been there and supported the team, but like everyone I have my own set of morals and values, and these would be incompatible with this signing, anyway if this is confirmed then I’m out, and I hope you all enjoy the season. 

Exactly this. We'll be constantly going round in circles and of course it is a sensitive matter. However, if anyone on here has never done anything selfish which could have resulted in a serious incident (think long and hard because there are tons of things), then I'll stand corrected. As Flashheart said, he's just lucky it's never happened to him. I'm sure many if not all of us could echo something similar.

If certain people feel that about that but then have done the exact same deed (and got away with it) then they're a hypocrite and aren't worth knowing.

We may not always agree (trivial shit  ;) ) but that is a spot on assessment. Well said.

Okay, let's drop the drink/drug drive thing for a second and consider this...

Are you saying you have never done anything that could end in a tragic accident. Ever? Even if initially you didn't consider the consequences or potential outcome? Then later regretted what you did. You may even have hurt someone but you didn't intend to, but you did? You've never done that?

It's not about being sanctimonious, it's about understanding regret. We are all human and with tht comes the ability to make mistakes/decisions that we shouldn't have. Answer the above honestly to yourself.

Its exactly because the consequences were different, Davis paid with his life. McCormick took someone else's and got off lightly. Of course they'll be treated differently.

I'll leave it there. We went round in circles for ages last time.

I think what OST is getting at is those two circumstances/consequences could quite easily have been reversed.

However you're right, this has been spoken way too much before.

As I said - there's no right or wrong with regards to how people view Luke McCormick.

I personally think he should be allowed to earn a living in whichever way he chooses. However (and some will say this is hypocritical but 'it is what it is') I really don't want that to be at Swindon. We do not need the baggage that would come with him (and you are talking, the total amount going through the conveyor belts at Heathrow in 1 year) . I would say that to Phil Brown as well.

It's a real shame that McCormick couldn't have carried on playing for Plymouth as they knew him before 'the incident'. That seems to make a massive difference although I can't quite put it into words as to why that should be. They certainly seem to think of him as 'one of their own' (clearly not all their fans are going to be of that inclination obviously)

Basically, they were the only team he could possibly have played for and I personally don't see how he can carry on in football - although that doesn't mean he should not be allowed to. It's a tricky one but I think STFC needs to stay well away.

I thought I expressed a view in the 53 page thread last time, but seemingly not, might have been about Hughes instead.

I'm with Batch, but for differing reasons.  Ultimately, regardless of the circumstances leading up the event, he committed and was convicted of a serious offence, a crime.  Arguably the sentence was too short, that is another argument.  However, my problem is not with the right of someone to carry of with their life once they serve their punishment, it is with the special treatment he gets due to his chosen profession.  He absolutely should be free to pursue a life once freed from prison, but in how many other profession would having such a conviction on your record enable to you to waltz back in at the same level, or close to, where you left off?  Everyone else who makes these types mistakes (more accurately described as personal choices) has to fight their way through life to regain their status, it's not fair on them.  That's the reason I mostly against us signing him, or anyone signing him in the professional ranks to be honest.

He is also a cunt.

And yes, for everyone who now advises me they've escaped from such a mistake in more favourable circumstances, you are also cunts, just not quite so high on the cunt scale - amazingly, outcomes do matter!  It's why there are differing crimes you punish people for breaking.

But, it's just a personal opinion.  The law entitles him to work, if we see fit to pay his wages as a private business, that's up to STFC.  Maybe the argument should actually be about why others cannot be afforded the same future as he is.

Oh, and I never did get the sympathy for Jimmy Davis.

If I followed you up the garden path, I am sure you could make a very good job of blurring the lines between right and wrong, regret and responsibility, however ultimately he did what he did, and I am judging him by my own standards as will everyone else, and this is a clearly a personal matter that we will never agree on.

See, I would say that the 'baggage' that comes with him, is more down to the baggage/beef that people choose to have with him. I'd say there was more baggage that comes with a player like Nile Ranger/Lee Bowyer etc. Why? Because those types of people have never learnt from their mistakes. I think many would be surprised as to what kind of character McCormick is now and the kind of work he puts it to prevent others making the mistake he did. To me, that is a much bigger person. To face derision and onslaught publicly. He could easily have skulked of into a day job but he's actually facing his critics (deservedly) in public and trying to right a god awful wrong. He may likely have to do that all his life.

This doesn't mean there is no compassion for the families involved. It's incredibly tragic. There's so many factors, he could've got in his car 5minutes later/earlier and missed them. They could've taken an alternative route and it may never have happened. He may have not decided to go but someone else may have drunk drove and killed them. etc, etc, etc.

The tragedy also includes McCormick's family too. They've woke up one morning and discovered something terrible has happened. Do they deserve that kind of abuse too? Because I'm certain they will have received it.

 There are some who wouldn't accept LM because he played for Oxford.... Jim Barron seemed broadly accepted and he played over 150 games for them before his stint with us. Personally, think I'd find it difficult with LM between our sticks, it would be easier say if he was goalkeeping coach.... a low profile position.

Would I still go  :hmmm: not sure.

Maybe so, but you would still be responsible for your own actions. A court of law would not accept if I convinced you it was a good idea to do something potentially dangerous. You might receive a lesser sentence if you're lucky but the question was asked, in more brief terms;

Have you never made a mistake, whereby the consequences could be tragic?

This includes something like crossing the road when you know there is a car coming. Sounds ridiculous? No. You don't intend to hurt anyone but you slip up on the road. The car hits you. You survive, the driver is thrown out of the window and the impact of his skull on the road kills him. That guys family changes forever. It's a tragic accident. You regret running across that road knowing full well it wasn't safe to. Yet it happened. You now have to live with that decision (which at the time seems very trivial and you were completely aware that you were making it).

On another note, maybe cars need to have locking sensors on them that recognise if you're off your rocker, or require you to enter a pin to start the car. If you get it wrong it rings a call centre and they can identify if you're fit to drive via a series of questions. Can even call the police so they can arrive and prevent even a drink drive charge and/or tragic incident happening. Not foolproof by any means but preventative measures.

Can we stop all of this sanctimonious shit and talk about transfer rumours please.

Have we signed anyone else yet?  ;)

Yes, Adam Johnson

Ffs, I was expecting Ched Evans to turn up.

To the best of my knowledge I have never came anywhere close to causing the death or serious harm of anyone, and if the death of a person was caused by my own disgraceful behaviour of which was completely avoidable, then I would expect to spend to the rest of my life in prison or maybe be given the death penalty as mercy, and personally I apply the same standards to others that I hold myself to.

I would say that's true and whether that's unfair or not, STFC/Phil Brown do not want to be having to deal with it. Ultimately, is LM's presence going to have a positive effect on our season? I can't see it. I think Reg is right, his next job is going to have to have to be much less visible. He managed to squeeze a few more years out of playing because of his history at Argyle. That's it for him now I think.

Anyway...

My cousin's dog's best friend's mother in law spotted a car at the CG today with the number plate.... SL0 MAS....that's all I'm saying...

Luongos coming back?

have to say while not panicking I'm feelingly increasingly disappointed we didn't have/get targets early doors.

the trialists don't fill me with confidence, based in their pedigree.

I'm sure it'll all shake out in the wash, but if I had to guess where we'd be as of today I'd say relegation battle.

stfc are keeping their cards very close to their chest (hopefully it's just that)

On the money 100%

To draw a line under my comments, I totally understand why people feel aggrieved by the idea of LM and as OST said, there's no real right or wrong answer, so to speak. What will be, will be.

Back to transfers...

The cards do seem incredibly close. Closer than previous seasons? or have we just failed at getting some of our targets but not been revealed to us?

Hmm, I still expect some advanced movements, soonish. God help us if we were ever in a position to qualify for a European Cup comp as the qualifying rounds have started already. I mean via a domestic cup. No real danger but it is a possibility. We just wouldn't be ready.

Not panicking...yet.

Wow, it must be so fucking hard to be humble when you are perfection personifide. Fellow TEF members, I give you Saint akay69 patron saint of the smell free early morning shit.

I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. PB said:
- Slashed budget
- Offers made to several players
- Players offered to him in positions where we had numbers
- Want players who want to play for the club (implying more money on offer elsewhere)

I hope this set of trialists turn out to all be Charlie Austin's!

well yes, a few Austin wouldn't go amiss! Austin though at least scored goals at a lower level.

Mullings has played for 14 clubs in 6 years and been prolific at none. Maybe he'll click, but you get my point.

wrt the other points, it's just that Brown knew what we needed, hit the ground running. maybe he's got things in the go, but I thought he'd be all over it and it would be different this time. so far, same no as previous seasons

Yeah I thought there would be more early doors, and was getting a bit frustrated. But then I thought back to other seasons early and late signings, and we're probably ahead of where we normally are, so hopefully a sign of quality, rather than replica pub players coming in. I also realised barely any prem or championship clubs have signed anyone yet, just a few lower league oiks like ourselves signing a few on expectation. Anyone would think there is a world cup on or something

As admirable as it would be, I think Akay missed the point I was getting at. We all make mistakes/decisions that we are unaware of sometimes that they could cause significant danger. It's just we get away with it more than not, a lot of times. Maybe we're luckier than we think?

Nope he got it, just he's next in line for white smoke signals.

If you fuck up, then you need to accept there are consequences. I would prefer it if one of the consequences for LM is that he never plays for the Town. If PB thinks it's important that he does, I'll need to have a long think about. I get he's trying to max what appears to be a reduced budget.. but is it seriously worth it  :hmmm:

Presumably LM is prepared to sit on the bench, for a modest sum, whereas Moore was offered the same modest sum, but would rather get some games with a Conference club for the same sort of money.

I guess at the end of the day, it will be results which matter, people can be unconcerned about Putin/May spreading Novochuk around the Wiltshire countryside as long as we get a result v Sverige

Amen.

Well said.

Difficult to know where to start with this one. Brown wants unity and then looks to bring in the one player guaranteed to divide the fans. I'm sure there will also be divided views amongst the players even in they don't publicly express it.
Everyone has their own level of tolerance as to what is acceptable or not, even if it is hypocritical or lessons learned.
I wouldn't disagree with anyone on this subject. It is personal to each but I just think, if you don't have to, then why fucking bother. Its not like he's the only bench warming keeper out there. If its a case of we can get him cheap then that doesn't sit well with me either due to the circumstances.
Has he served his time, back on the piss etc or has he served his time and voluntarily talks to vulnerable groups to try and ensure others don't do what he did. I haven't got a clue. If its the former then no thanks. If its the latter then I'd be ok with it. You can't turn back the clock but you can tell your story and if it stops one person doing it then you've done a very good thing.
So, that's the key question for me - is he going back to old ways or is he truly trying to make amends. I appreciate there is a lot of grey in the middle.
Saying that, I hope he doesn't sign.

Excellent points.... it seems to me one of the fundamentals of support is that you have to have a certain empathy with the players representing you, by their wearing of the shirt. For sure this entails a certain suspension of reality, but the custodian is unique within that framework, last line of defence, closest to fans gathered behind the goal that sort of thing.

So a sort of bond can develop.... we've had some great characters down the years, many much admired by Town fans. Sammy Burton, Peter Downsborough, Jimmy Allan, Kenny Allen, Fraser Digby, even the likes of Phil Smith and briefly Brez.

More recently Wes, an excellent keeper and thoroughly decent young man.... Vigs jury still out for me.

This relationship just isn't going to be available for LM.... and to me it shows perhaps not intended disrespect to the fans but a very poor understanding of what being a fan means.  I'd hoped for better from PB

It shouldn't come as much of a surprise.  Brown was happy to sign Nile Ranger - an utter scumbag.

Is signing him going to dramatically improve our chances of promotion? Probably not.
Will it create a whole world of problems? Most definitely.
Luke McCormick has to rebuild his life, that's his problem - let's not make it ours.

Re your first question - I had a look back on his career specifically after he signed for Plymouth and saw this.

'McCormick was handed the role of club captain before the start of the 2014–15 season. The campaign was a strong one for McCormick, as he started all 53 league and cup matches, kept 22 clean sheets and won Argyle's player of the year award'

Unfortunately this isn't black and white due to the issues being discussed but on the pitch it gives us 2 good keepers.

I am never sure what the difference is in terms of a league 2 player continuing their chosen career or an accountant (both have ended up doing what they do through hard work and being good at it), average Lg 2 salaries are probably less than a qualified accountant could earn so why is it hugely different? Are we now saying that anyone convicted of such a crime should no longer be allowed to work, so for instance this guy, https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/a50-cyclist-death-john-stewart-1727253 should not be allowed to work to support his family? (only use that as an example as was discussing it yesterday as the victim was a loose acquaintance of mine from another forum)? I can just imagine the righteous indignation if it came out in the tabloids that McCormick was living on benefits.

Many years ago I was the driver in an accident where my girlfriend (now my wife) was injured, due to her injury it was subject to a police investigation which took about 4 months (interview under caution etc etc) and they concluded that it was an accident and that I was not at fault in any way, however to this day it still fucks with my head a lot, I didn't go out to crash but due to a mixture of circumstances it happened.....

A key point of prison is rehabilitation, and if he joins we can all tell our kids as a story to be bloody careful and not act like a fuckwit as it can have horrible consequences. I note that when he signed for Plymouth certain of the victims relatives were coming out saying they were trying to get on with their life and he should do likewise.

I an entirely indifferent if he signs, see no reason why it should be more of a pantomime than when he was at Plymouth, it it was Lee Hughes I would feel very different but McCormick didn't leave the scene and hide for nearly 2 days to avoid a breath test or plead innocent and then try to appeal his sentence.  

Everyone has their line in the sand with regards morality Horlock. Consequences are judged even if the crime is the same, even in law.

I've been trying to think how to express it without lashing out in a post (at the signing). I guess those that have done their time are at liberty to work wherever they can find employment, but they'll always be judged

Its just a question of your own personal line
- drug dealing
- rapist
- murderer
- pedophilia
- death by drunk driving...
- someone convicted of assisting terrorism

Some people will be fine with some of that, some none, some all.

He'll sign, or not, but we are never going to get agreement on this. And we don't all have to support it.
 

As you say everyone is different and I have no interest in disagreement as I am not trying to say that my PoV is any more valid than anyone elses...

However as a practical question if those convicted of those crimes are to be excluded from the job market what are they going to do, in McCormicks case for c.80-90 years, live off the state?

I don't wish to speak for anyone, and it's not my view, but I think the issue is the fact that he's a footballer, not that he has a job.

Interestingly, he apparantly gave 50% of his wages to Children’s charities whilst at Plymouth. (After the accident)

Well he has signed, hes not a bad keeper, lets try and move on past what he did even though we ALL have reservations about what happened and can debate it all year, but hes here now.

I have no idea how he was accepted at the Pox and Plymouth since his crime but I am guessing he just got on with his job as he will do with us.

Lets just back the team whoever plays nobody can condone what he did, not even slightly, but he has been dealt with in the way the courts see fit and its not for us to say what should and shouldn't have happened to him in the eyes of the law.

We don't need to cheer his name when he plays or sing it, we just hope he doesn't let us down, as we do with every new player.

Hes here now so lets deal with the football side of things and not the off the field shit.

Sorry Venks, I feel very strongly about this. I can't support him in a Town shirt. I hope he never plays for us.

I won't boycott matches, or call him out at games. But I fully intend to let the club and sponsors know my feelings at every social media opportunity.

Never felt so disappointing in a Town signing.

This is indeed a new low in our history.... I just don't think I could go to a game knowing he's playing.  Could I if he's on the bench  :hmmm:

Thats fair enough I appreciate it is not acceptible in any way shape or form but I have gone past it and will only judge him on what he does with us on and off the field.

But everybody has their own (in many cases such as yours) strong opinions.

When he was on trial with us then I did not want him near the club at all but I have mellowed a bit now that we are not his first club. Rightly or wrongly.

He will always divide opinion though.

The club have reached a new low.

And on that bombshell...

I say give him a chance.

Did he rage quit, or get banned?

If he signs I really am conflicted as to whether to go or not. I keep flip flopping between the two. I understand both sides of the argument but I still come back to the basic thought of why fucking do it knowing the reaction you'd get. It's not the way to get a united fanbase.
I've got a bit of time to flip flop a bit more. Normally I'm quite black and white but both sides of the argument are persuasive.

For me it's black and white.... being a fan is about offering support and encouragement to those on the pitch, who are representing "the club"

In all honesty, I couldn't do this with LM, and further it's another example of the club being removed from the fans. 

Therefore I'm left with no option other than non attendance. 

Where I'm prevaricating is whether he's on the bench, but doesn't get on.... I think I could live with that.

He has signed a 1 year contract.

But you were ok with fascism Reg. Odd moral code. Have you forgotten what it was like sticking it up Jerry back in the day?

Certainly haven't forgotten.... similarly I haven't forgotten the Battle of Mers-el Kebir, whereby in 1940 the Royal Navy sank much of the French fleet, before the Vichy Government could hand it over to the Germans. Nominally the French were still our allies, but the Vichy regime practised fascist policies, and conducted an air raid on Gibraltar by way of response.

None of which has anything to do with the fact I won't go and watch a Town game if LM is playing.

Does a bit though. One young man drink-driving vs support for genocide. Your moral compass has gone haywire.

And what Vichy France has to do with anything...

You choose to live in France a country with a history of backing fascism...

Don't be ridiculous. I choose to live in an advanced European social democracy with an understanding of work-life balance and the good things in life.

Jesus Reg. Is Great Britain's history so innocent?

Indeed not but as Froggy inplied that my watching of Town under PdC was tacit to condoning genocide, presumably referring to the Holocaust, I thought it worth mentioning France's part in those events, which were not insignificant.  Certainly worthy of a bit of moral compass application.

Macron apologised officially a little under a year ago... I quote from the Guardian

Commemorating 75 years since a mass roundup of Jews during the darkest chapter of modern French history, Macron insisted “it was indeed France that organised this”.

“Not a single German” was directly involved, he said, but French police collaborating with the Nazis.

Holocaust survivors recounted wrenching stories at the ceremony at the site of Vel d’Hiv stadium near the Eiffel Tower in Paris, where police herded 13,000 people on 16-17 July 1942 before they were deported to camps. More than 4,000 were children. Fewer than 100 survived.

They were among about 76,000 Jews deported from France to Nazi camps

A drink driving footballer to the holocaust in around 10 posts, good grief.

He's signed people, are entirely entitled to do what they like in terms of attendance?

I don't recall was there this much fuss and stay aways when we signed Ranger on a rape charge or after he was filmed knocking women about?

I think there was a fair amount and when the video came out of him snacking his girlfriend he had to go.

With respect, Chalkies, I don't think the fanbase has ever been united, or ever will, just like society in general. It'll certainly drive a few more fans away. For what it's worth, like Di Canio and Ranger, it won't stop me going (FWIW no.2: Leslie Grantham didn't stop me watching Eastenders).

You're very confused mon vieux. I didn't condone either Vichy or Swindon under fascist regimes. Either you're cherry-picking your causes, or your decision to abstain is permanent. Anyway, have you ever driven under the influence?

Fuck off comparing the holocaust to this, seriously.

Here you are Reg, maybe this will help you with your sense of perspective
(https://i1.wp.com/teresabernardart.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Linear_Perspective.jpg)

Oh god that's probably going to remind him of the Port Merrion railway in 1882 or something

Or some tubby romanian woman climbing up to his treehouse on Glastonbury Tor

I have no trouble with perspective... therefore don't think my support of Town during the PdC years, means I supported fascism and genocide as Froggy suggests.

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :clap:

Portmeirion (I thought you lived in Wales) never had a railway, or in fact even a station. 😉

I literally care more about paint drying.

His sentence should have been increased just for his celebration alone.

Done a fair bit more reading on this and particularly what the family said a few years ago and can't really go while he's here. There's no right or wrong here it's what's right for the individual. I don't want any of my money going into his pocket and couldnt cheer him if he made a save.
It's a shame. Love going down the CG even when we've been shit but that's me done until he's no longer under contract here. My daughter's can make their own minds up.

So this is a genuine hypothetical question.

We are in the last minute of a play off final. Luke Mcmormick is in goal. The opposing team have a penalty. The penalty is saved. STFC gain promotion.

What would you thoughts be then?

I would also like to add this.

He has done his time. He has said he felt guilty and wants to integrate with society. Is it his fault his career is a professional footballer. If you owned a building company, and he was a good builder, would you not give him a job?

I am not saying what he did was right, far from it, it’s just another point of view.

That one's easy. I won't be there or watching on telly so not an issue. I've got to detach from stfc while he's under contract.

A builder is not in the public eye or such high profile and unlikely to be applauded if he lays down a good brick. Part of McCormick's defence was that he wouldn't be playing football again. The family whose children were wiped out appreciate he's got to earn a living but not as a footballer. 

Even if he’s only on the bench? Seems a bit extreme imo, but that’s your choice and that deserves respect.

Only way I can do it. Will miss it massively but will be back when his contract ends. Shame but it's right for me.

Fair play, I don't think I could do that with any player though, I support my club whoever is playing - I don't need to like the players or manager as long as they do the job.

I know a few people felt the same when PdC was in charge that they would never go while he was at the club, and fair play if you feel that way, at the end of the day its your choice if you go or not and not for anyone else to judge.

In fairness I stopped going when McMoan & Rikki Khunt were at the club.

I missed the entire Div 3 championship season as I refused to go whilst they were there.

I went to the game after he was sacked but it took some time for me to get another Season Ticket, in fact it was Fitton’s cheap tickets that encouraged me to go regularly again.

This.

Really? I thought the fall out with the fans came much later than this, although I was young and relatively oblivious to anything outside of my own experience.

Didnt look convincing yesterday. Vigoroux on the other hand  was confident both in shot stopping and delivery, where his excellent pass set up our goal.

You can't blame McCormick for being a bit nervous after everything written about him on social media and playing in front of our own fans for the first time.

McCormick has 300+ Football League appearances. If it wasn’t for the crime, he’d be universally considered the perfect cover for Vigouroux.

Alas...

As far as i’m concerned he is. Royally fucked up, paid the price, did the time.

I think it was a bad mistake by Brown to sign him, and if I had not already renewed my season ticket I might have had second thoughts about attending this season.

Normal first game nerves. The rest is irrelevant.

You reckon he hasn't faced aced the same polarised views on him before or faced chants of "murderer" from away fans. He's chosen to continue his public career, he has had to deal with it from day 1 of going back into football.

From fans of the opposition, yes, not so much from fans of the club he played for, Oxford and Plymouth fans didn't react as many Town fans did when they signed him, rightly or wrongly.

As I said before people are entitled to their own opinions as to whether we should have signed him or not but we have so have to deal with it in our own way.

As PB says "the incident should never be forgotten or overlooked"

“I hope and pray that supporters will allow the mistake that he made – and he knows all about and I know all about it – to be not overlooked, but he has served his time."

If you or anyone else chooses to not watch Swindon because of him then thats their perogative, for me its about him as a player for Swindon on the pitch now.

It is possible to argue that he should be locked away for life (which to some extent I agree with) but the judges have had their say and gave him a sentence which he has served and he has ended up here.

I wouldn't cheer his name, I won't boo him, I just hope he doesn't let the club down on the pitch (or off of it for that matter).

But if you/Chalkies/Reg etc choose not go go any more then thats your choice.

Again, personally, I wouldn’t let any sort of fuckwit deprive me of the ‘enjoyment’ of STFC. The actual football might, but not a footballer.

I've not said that i'm not going, only that I am disgusted my already paid for season ticket is going towards his wage. And that I simply won't acknowledge his resistance.

And that wasn't the point of your post anyway. If you look around Twitter there are plenty of Oxford and Truro that reacted the same.

Only a few here, other examples can be found
https://twitter.com/OUFCOfficial/status/297125216499408896

We aren't different to any other football fans. Though many like to think we are somehow worse.

Can't fully understand why people have such a problem with this guy.   Yes, he did drink drive, yes unfortunately he did kill two kids.
However,  this was an accident,   he did not go out with the intention of murdering someone.   He held his hands up,  took the punishment,  did his time.    Unlike another fooballer, he did not go into hiding, he did not try to lie his way out of it. Surely we all make mistakes in life,  unfortunately his mistake proved to be a lot more severe than probably most of ours.
Perhaps we have been lucky,  perhaps he has been unlucky, either way, but for the grace of God,  Go I.
As long as he produces on the pitch I'm prepared to give the guy a chance.

In some ways I agree, especially when it comes to something like this, but I do feel that we have a section of fans who are really quick to turn on the team.

For example Walsall away the season before last, the support was really good right up to the point we conceded a goal. Now I know it was a shit season & we ultimately got relegated but just when the team need the fans behind them there’s a (vocal) element that can’t help but get in their backs.

From “the greatest team” to “not fit to wear the shirt” on the back of a single goal.

Yes, there are always some that go too far. And I have been at a few games where its critical we win, yet all of us fans are sat in near silence.

On the flip side there are been times that a 'spark' has unexpectedly got the fans going.

Should we get behind the team regardless - yes.  I guess 3 rubbish seasons and Power's approach to running it his way has consequences.

I know we had a few PDC objectors (fair enough), but the feeling of the club going somewhere (better!) goes a long way. The atmosphere at that time was incredible. Unfortunately so was the cash burn.

So what are peoples thoughts are McCormick so far? Seems to be doing quite well. Keeping Vigs out the team.

Very good keeper, but then I don’t think there were ever any doubts about that.
I’d still prefer Vigs in there though, mainly because I think he’s slightly better.

It was discussed on the excellent Loathed Strangers pod about the keeper situation and they seem to think its probably the end of Vigs based on this. It does seem harsh for a player to have to miss a game due to being good enough to be called up by an international team and then not be able to get back into the side after coming back.

I suspect Vigs won't sign a new contract so it makes sense for McCormick to be our number 1 going forward. He is only on a 1 year deal and will probably be offered a further 1 or 2 as he seems sound enough at this level.

He is a much better keeper than Vigoroux in almost every department on what I've seen.

I have seen every game LMC has played for the Town and I think hes a fair bit better keeper all round than Vigs, I like Vigs but I feel more comfortable with LMC in goal, his kicking is much better (except for a couple on Saturday), his claiming of crosses is far better and he is at least as good a shot stopper.

So I wonder how many have stuck to their word and not attended while he was playing..

Keeping the obvious aside and concentrating on the football alone, I think LM has done very well. One dodgy moment Saturday, but every keeper has those.

His ability was never really in question anyway.

However, from a football club point of view Vigs has a future ahead of him, LM's career is largely behind him. We can't cater for both. I'd expect Vigs to be off comne January if things don't change soon - very harsh to drop him for being on international duty - but LM hasn't done anything to be dropped either.

I'd still have Vigs - I've only seen McCormick once (on Saturday) and although he didn't have much to do he got away with a couple of narrow misses.

As mentioned above, the bottom line is that, without exaggeration, Vigs' international callup could have a major negative impact on his career. He trekked around the world, got no game time at all, and could feasibly sit on the bench for the rest of the season now. If he'd cried off the Chile games, and stayed here, he could have made a further 40 games.

It's not hard to see why players cry off international football.

TBF to LMC they were the first time he has done anything like that in any of his 6 appearances so far, even vs Chelsea he had no chance with any of the goals he conceded. Vigs used to do that almost once a game, often with his very poor kicking.

I think he gives the defence confidence, even if he barks down their ears every 10mins. Yet that's what you want from a keeper. Comes with experience too and knows how to command his box.

4 clean sheets in 5 (I believe) is not to be sniffed at, which also means we've only conceded 2 in 450+ mins (the two coming v Bury). In a goalkeeping sense, can't really fault him. He's probably the most stable keeper we've had since Wes.

LMC 6 in 6 games inc 4 clean sheets.
Chelsea 4
Morecambe 0
Newport 0
Bury 2
Yeovil 0
Oldham 0

Vigs 9 in 5 games 0 clean sheets.
Lincoln 4
FGR 1
Tranmere 2
FGR 1
MKD 1

Didn't realise he played against Chelsea in the Boycott Cup. Cheers JJ. Still a decent record.

Even better if he didn't play in the Chelsea game ;)

Tricky comparison because Nelson and wolfie have improved the defense too.

They have, its always difficult as its not like for like in defence but I would say Luke makes me feel more comfortable than Vigs.

I know a lot of Town fans wouldn't agree though.

Luke "seems" to engage more with the players in front of him.  It might not be the case, because I'm viewing it through iFollow with commentary from another game, but it looks that way.

I like Vigs but as a fan I always wonder where his next "Wobbly" is coming from. We can attribute that to growing up and learning etc. and I shouldn't judge him on that but like an under-the-skin-itch it nags me. Goalkeeping sense if he keeps his head down and works hard he will learn a lot from watching LMc. Football is a strange employment because LMc could easily get injured on Tues and Vigs is back in. Thing is, it won't be a given if that were to happen. Vigs would still have to return PBs faith with maybe 2/4 clean sheets or performances that suggest he did everything to stop a goal. For me that's why LMc has the No.1 in all but on his back, he's earned his place with performances. I don't think we'd be saying that if someone like Phil Smith (for all the want of trying, and a lovely bloke) had stepped in. Vigs just needs to work hard because injuries aside...he won't be first choice for the foreseeable.

I dont think the recent improvement ingoals conceded has much to do with McCormick. Weve just stopped making basic errors. Those errors were apparent against Bury and no matter which keeper was playing we would have lost.

It is u usual for a L2 club to have 2 such good keepers on its books.

he didn't look brilliant on Sat. bit flappy. seems quite small for a keeper, first time iv seen him play.

nearly made a mistake in the first minute when their striker closed him down and reacted well slow.

Didn't really make a save so can only judge on distribution etc. did however collect some good crosses but at the same time missed one he came well out for. still vigs for me but he isn't going to get dropped for clean sheets

He's been quite good on crosses to be fair to him, and he made a couple of blinding saves in recent games.  Looks a competent keeper, and Vigs had improved earlier int he season I thought as well, Crawley being a stand out.  Great to be able to rely on two keepers when last season all our keepers looked like they had wet brown paper shopping bags for hands.

Definately this, you can't judge him on a single performance just him over 4 or 5, Saturday was easily his poorest game so far in a Town shirt.

We can rely on both keepers for the first time in many years.

Arguably much of what makes a good custodian can’t necessarily be seen by the fans. A good keeper needs to organise his defence, inspire confidence. Some of this may even occur off the field if play. If he’s securing clean sheets that’s all that matters. It’s certainly not all about just shot stopping. Vigs is clearly a capable shot stopper but we have a poor defensive record when he is between the sticks. Coincidence?

To my very untrained eye, vigs best is better than mcormicks best. And vigs worse is worse than mcormicks worst