Thetownend.com

I know innocent people have been caught up in it, but still. There's a fuck ton of people out and about right now doing all sorts of Bondesque spying stuff.

Fascinating, innit?

What I don’t understand is why didn’t the killer(s) just shoot them.

If 20 odd members of the public have been affected it must have been fucking dangerous for the hitmen.

Time to go, Sergei!

Indeed. Russia loves a bit of espionage. From Novichok, with love.

Because this way sends a message, like Litvienenko - if you betray the KGB (because let's face it, this is still the KGB, no matter what the rebranding), you will never be safe, we will hunt you and your family down, even years after you think you are safe, even when you think you have found refuge and we will wipe you out. Which coincidentally is the line being parrotted by Russian state TV:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sergei-skripal-traitors-are-not-safe-on-british-soil-says-russia-skripal-putin-poison-57dmcndzz

For anyone for whom the assassination attempt was too subtle.

Good question.

There's all sorts of possibilities. Maybe it's some sort of message? Perhaps guns/ammo are easier to trace? I dunno, I can only guess, but they would surely have had a very good reason to choose that specific method.

Very risky method, though. It’s bad enough - diplomatically - to carry out a state sponsored assassination by shooting. To endanger the wider public using a nerve agent is extreme.

What was that stuff used to kill matey’s half brother at Kuala Lumpur airport?

I'm guessing it didn't go according to plan, or at least not as smoothly as they were hoping it would.

I find it ridiculous that Boris Johnson thinks removing suited delegates from this years World Cup in Russia, is enough to deter them from doing this again. That's it Boris, you tell them. They must be pissing themselves - with laughter.

Well, that’s them fucked then!

Everything about BJ's comments said: "Look at how much I love the British people. Nothing to do with the upcoming election, honest!"

Haven't some of his family died in suspicious circumstances as well?

I reckon it'll be something like: "OK, this time, let EVERYBODY know it was us, but don't tell anybody it was us"

It used to be so much more civilised during the Soviet era....

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/16073451.Cold_war_spy_who_went_to_school_in_Swindon/

Yes they have. His wife died of cancer, a short time after they arrived in the UK and his son "died" on a recent trip to guess where - Russia.

They have fucked up because the case now complicates a U.K Public Service worker (and potentially more). Not as smooth as they would have liked. However the U.K have fucked up the case too because on arrival at the scene, the officer should have been getting a positive I.D before attempting any kind of resuscitation. I'm certain forces are briefed on a future potential attack of someone living in refuge. Especially that of a former spy. Before anyone gets all "don't be ridiculous" on me, I can understand why the officer in question did assist but this will be seen as naive err, especially where damage limitation comes in to play. The U.K nor Russian would want the embarrassment of a dead Public Service worker, on their hands. The public obviously would not be aware but in the interests of safety and security, any force members should have been aware of this guy. Basically it's a bigger mess than it needs to be.

Of course - To remove any question of doubt. I obviously make this shit up.

So you think coppers should not try to help somebody if they don't know who they are?

A copper is being, err, naive by trying to help a member of the public that's clearly in distress?

I think you've been watching too much of the walking dead.

Sorry mate, not going to do cpr on you until i have found your driving licence!

How many times did you check for ID before saving lives, eh? EH?

How irresponsible!

*naive error

Not just a member of the public though is he? To you, I or most of the Salisbury public - Yes. Not to the police or gov though. When LVNA are used the "poisoned" would not appear in clear distress as they have generally been administered via liquid or particulate (powdered Novichok-5 for example) form. A C2 Kit & HazMats are likely to have been used to detect but simple M8 Paper could have been used as a cursory measure before contact resuscitation. If it was a vapour based VNA then yes they would appear in clear distress but the poisoned would not have likely made it out of the house. Vapour based effects happen very quickly once exposed.

Of course, I'm just making this shit up.

For the record...I do watch way too much of The Walking Dead  :D

Think Georgi Markov might beg to differ. Or would have done if he hadn't been murdered in a similarly brutal and exotic fashion. Also a "statement" assassination.

Ah, the old umbrella job.

My other ‘favourite’ was God’s Banker who the Mafia hung up under Blackfriars Bridge.

Yes, he was. He was just a member of the public. Very much so. He was very much a member of the public, that's exactly what he was. A member of the public. At least to the copper he was. And the paramedics.

Do you expect every copper to be trained to remember the faces off all the people that may or may not be criminals or spies? I'm sure they'll be told from time to time to "Watch out for this bloke", but just how much do you expect the average copper to absorb?

What about the average citizen that's having a cardiac arrest and looks a bit similar to some bloke that was a spy in the 80s? Best get ID first?

As I said. The poisoned, which i'm certain in this case, would not have been in visible distress. Either "zoned out" or "daydream" paralysis state, or on the floor possibly collapsed but still maintaining a pulse. FWIW, you don't know my background or have any knowledge of what I may have done or worked as in the past. That's ok, you clearly know so much more than me and have all the intel. I'll leave it to you.

Oh for the sake of fuck.

I'm off to bed, I can't even be bothered to find a gif.

Yes it is extreme. That's the point. Sends a very effective message to those who may be thinking of doing the same as he did and as Litvinienko did - "the British cannot protect you". Risky? To the individuals handling the nerve agent maybe. But not to Russsia. Our limp-wristed response to both Litvinienko and (inevitably) to this one tells the Russians they have carte blanche.

VX. Already been ruled out in this case according to "BBC sources" quoted on Radio 4 this morning, along with Sarin

To be fair to Boris (and it's not often you'll find me saying that), our ability to act seriously against the Russians disappeared up the swanny when Blair and Brown decided to sell London to the Russian kleptocracy in return for all the dirty money they'd stolen which the City and high-end London property did such a good job of laundering for them. We swallowed their cancer whole and if we want rid of it now, London's economy (which is a large portion of the UK economy) might  not survive the operation to cut it out

You have to admire the Russian's ability to hold a grudge.

You know a lot about this stuff - was it you ?

I wasn't in Marseille, but some of my friends were.

They met a group of Russians - before the trouble started - and were having a great, friendly time together.
When the Russians left, they stopped and told my friends to be careful - said that Putin was sending over the military dressed as football hooligans to do a job on the English.

They also said that it was the start of a programme of humiliation. They see Britain as a country that talks but doesn't walk, and that Russia can make great political capital out of taking the piss.

Based on that, this would be just the start.
So we may be faced with a big decision in the not too distant future.
Unless of course the guys were bullshitting.

That's a fair call.

You've met me in person. What do you think?  :)

Eric would have sorted em.

The most likely source of Georgi's assassins is firmly in the Balkans...

I reckon they'd just taken Spice. That what the effects sounds like to me.

As for the Salisbury locals, please let's disassociated ourselves from them. Just because of the Wiltshire connection do we feel some kind of bond. But in fact we have far more in common with Cirencester, Witney, Cheltenham and Oxford than those pesky southeners.

I will never forgive Salisbury for switching their 'home' FA Cup game versus Millwall to The Dell. That's how much they see the connection with us northeners.

I hope your last comment of "i obviously make this shit up" means you are joking with your statement.
Otherwise that is complete & utter bollocks, more than the 80% bolllocks of this site!

So what you're saying is every serving police officer in the country should be briefed on every single criminal on our shores for that just in case moment?? Fuck me, have you ever worked for the security services? Try remembering just 50 faces, their name, dob address what affiliation they belong to, oh and while  you're at it,  what substance they  regularly inject or snort up their nose!!

Could you imagine if the old bill just stood by and did nothing because they had to wait for ID?

I'll do that next time I come across someone unconscious/not breathing. Wonder how long I'll keep my job....

While you're at it, you better check for a do not resuscitate form other wise you could be sued by the very person you revived!

Should just stop helping people really.

It's fair to say that Sarum has always felt a bit distant from our end of the county, with relatively speaking miles of empty downland in between, but for me that's it's charm, it's always felt a bit special. I'm not a religious man, in the conventional sense, but do always get a thrill on seeing the cathedral spire.

I guess it's a Wessex thing, as well as Wiltshire. 

Of course it's easier to get to Ciren, Oxford etc, but I like the way the old Swindon/Sarum coach road, still exists in places, as little more than tracks. 

The X5, is a lovely bus, but does out of necessity meander around a bit.... but what right thinking Moonraker, wouldn't be inspired by this route..... Swindon....Marlborough.....Pewsey....Amesbury....Durrington....Sarum and all villages in between

Surely attempted murder is an occupational hazard in the spying business? Not much sympathy from me I'm afraid,well maybe for his daughter

It's well established the actual hit man was from Bulgarian intelligence. But that doesn't really alter the point that it was on Soviet orders.

The X5 is a bit of a hairdresser's off-roader, and no match for a land Rover, but to call it a bus is a bit harsh

Red Fox ?

I'm guessing you're not a Moonraker...

You got me!

  The links between Swindon and Sarum, reinforced by them sending us their chav scum for a court appearance.

  http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/16081513.pc-bitten-by-drunk-at-scene-of-nerve-agent-spy-attack/?ref=mr&lp=3

a) No. Never said that. Although I see how it could be misconstrued as that and possibly taken out of context by some *scoff*

b) Haha - Potentially this is where our country is going wrong with security. It's far too easy for Russia to send an agent over here and waltz in like it's some kind of Po-210 party. Maybe this time the security of this country needs a serious review and not culminating in a conclusion that just says "It was probably them."

My initial comment was meant to express concern on contact resuscitation (Mouth to mouth), as hands only could initially have been given but of course it got taken out of context and that's fine, I understand why.

I am fed up though of people on here assuming they know about my background. Responses like "oh for the fuck of fuck" (yes Flashheart i'm highlighting you because i'm clearly obsessed) doesn't inspire adult conversation, even if they do think they have some kind of higher sense of value on here. It's quite strange that people who have never met one another can proclaim to clearly dislike someone, based only on a bunch of comments that they may or may not have taken out of context.

There was a conversation on here recently about why there were less people joining forums (even if they can be quite good sources to varying degrees). Quite possibly, the reason lies from within. People look in and think "well fuck that". It seems very much, unless you're a top or long-term contributor on many forums, you get constantly "no no-ed" or shouted down. Some people don't like it when someone is right, even if that is against consensus. e.g Theist (with millions upon millions of backers) versus Atheist (which seems to grow as new generations are born and older ones pass on).

I'm sure my response will yet again get ripped apart, probably by the discovery of one part of a sentence that is disagreeable, even maybe a whole sentence. I'm sure some will even discuss it in The Lounge  :soapy tit wank: Oh well, you can't please all of the people, all of the time. Have a cracking day  :)

What has your preference of position got to do with it?

Interesting that they have revealed the name of the substance, Novichok, a very potent nerve agent, developed in Russia. I'd guess our cops, army, scientists etc.now know where the local source came from. A gift from Russia unwittingly carried in by his daughter? That's one rumour amongst many.

What will probably be never solved is who was behind this, the Russian government, rogue elements or someone else? Just like the Litvinenko poisoning. And why? This could have been a huge disaster. Sad world.

Erm, the Litvinenko poisoning has been pretty comprehensively demonstrated to have been the Russian government, at the direct orders of Putin. Pretty sure this will be as well. The Russians aren't trying to hide that they're behind this, by using this nerve agent they're doing everything but directly boasting about it. It's supposed to send a message. Whether that's a message to any future potential spies that Putin will never let you off the hook, or to our government that the Russians can do what they want, or to the wider West that Russia is a strong power and Britain is weak, or all or none of the above is another matter.

Nice to see that while the US State dept has condemned the Russians for this, Trump's spokespeople are pointedly refusing to do so. The Manchurian Candidate indeed.

Putin has told him what to say yet, anyway, the Russian's had nothing to do with the election meddling over here either, so say say his Republican Stalker Nunes.

I know some on here love a good old conspiracy theory...

So here we are, a nice little Island off the north eest of Europe controlling Atlantic entry and Sea movements from the Baltic ports will be ripe for invasion / takeover

With Brexit coming the UK is already standing somewhat more alone on the world stage. What with the apparent Russian involvement in brexit and our subsequent diminished position in international affairs and reducing friend base, the neutralisation of the USA and watching our government show themselves to be entirely inept on an international stage, its almost like someone is orchestrating things from afar......

I am fed up though of people on here assuming they know about my background.

Maybe it might help though if you prefaced your comments with "Speaking as a past/present/future MI5/MI6/KGB agent/Special Branch Officer/Chemical and Biological Defence expert/recent victim of a covert poison attack/opinionated amateur...in these days when most discussion and debate seem to consist of who can swear most and demonise their opponents most effectively and pretend to knowledge they don't have, establishing one's authority is of paramount importance!!! ;D

😂😂😂😂 you have a cheek to accuse me and others of talking bollocks.

Could they not just send a sample to Russia.... in an unmarked envelope?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43381880

Yes, but mine wan't an entirely serious contribution?

Pull the other one.

You need to lay off the Novichok comrade, I only have one to pull personally?

Another enemy of Putin's found dead in his UK home. Probably topped himself to try to discredit Vlad. At least that's how RT and the automated half of Twitter will be reporting it

Amazing how many who have liked to portray themselves as 'patriots' on social media for months are now desperately trying to spin pro Russia on this story.... In light of the close links between May, Johnson and many closely linked to Putin often via the interference in the US elections, I look forward to the Enemies of the People headline in the Mail.  :hmmm:

Its as funny old world.

Indeed, I assume it's only a matter of time before Lord Haw Haw Farage pops up to explain how it's all a wicked plot by the liberal elite to undermine the Brexit Uncle Vlad backed so generously.

Talking about Farage, I was catching up on some recorded episodes of Endeavour last night (we are getting a new recorder and thus are having to clear the existing one) and there was an episode with racist and fascist themes in it, one of the main characters was called Farridge, I am sure its coincidental....

That will learn them....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43402506

Pathetic. Magnitsky Act or STFU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitsky_Act

We already sort of have it, but they keep it very quiet....

https://www.occrp.org/en/daily/6104-uk-house-of-commons-passes-the-magnitsky-asset-freezing-sanctions

Amazed the puppet Trump hasn't got rid of it sharpish....

No use having it if you don't use it. But then we can't because we've allowed so much dirty Russian money to be laundered via the City and the London property market that using it would risk severe harm to London's economy.

And WTF is Corbyn up to? Is he in some sort of competition with May to see who can look less like a leader?

I don't think he can remove an existing law, that's the job of Congress and the Senate, who voted almost unanimously for extra sanctions that Trump didn't sign off on.

I think he has, reluctantly, signed up now. Congress included North Korea and Iran in the same act as they did Russia.

“Smart!”

I suspect that much of the caution relates to the fact that if you start digging around into who owns London property via offshore arrangements and other instruments a) it will be nigh impossible to actually uncover an entity at the end of each of the ownership rainbows and b) I wonder how many of our senior politicians and cabinet ministers may also find themselves mixed up in such inquiries, hence their reticence in using the tools available.

A "UK Magnitsky" act might be a step forward but for it to have any real international value, and hurt Russia in any way at all, the sanctions raised from it would need to be adopted by the UN (where Russia have power of veto, making it extremely unlikely), the US (Trump is reluctant to sanction Russia as it is) or the EU.

Fortunately for us (and unfortunately for Russia) we are one of the largest members of the EU and so quite influential :)

Unfortunately for us in this regard we are leaving the EU and hence have lost much of that influence :(

I think that was his point?!

Too subtle :)

I've a feeling that the Ruskies had nothing to do with this, and that the tories are going to end up liking like a proper bunch of cunts. Even more so than they do already.

Just a hunch.

Nicked from another forum, although I can vouch for the background of the poster...

Mrs May's use of the phrase "military grade" nerve agent seems a deliberate political usage. As a trained chemist, I can't think of any scientific meaning of "military grade". (That is quite different from the situation in, say, nuclear weapons, where "weapons grade" plutonium has a distinct, scientifically measurable variation in composition from simply "plutonium").

So "military grade nerve agent" seems deliberate phraseology to suggest a military origin, but does not actually demonstrate that military origin. A lot is made of the level of sophistication required to make nerve agents, often stating that it is only within the technical compass of a state-level player. That is probably true when talking about a chemical warfare programme aiming to make thousands of tons of material and deploy it in battlefield-tested weapons. However, that is not the case with an assassination attempt: to produce gram-level quantities of such a chemical would be within the ability of any small group with access to a university-level research laboratory. Not something you cook up in your kitchen, but not something that necessarily requires hundreds of millions of pounds / dollars / roubles of effort either. The supposed formulation and synthetic routes are in the open literature.

I'm also not clear in my mind what method you would use to demonstrate the source of the chemical. I can think of analytical routes in to that problem, but they would require that you had unequivocal comparison sources of original material of known origin, which seems slightly unlikely, and in any case would probably not be admitted publicly even if true. The alternative seems to be a circular argument: "we believe only the Russians have made Novichok - we've identified Novichok - ergo it must be Russian". Sounds plausible, but only stands up to scrutiny if the first statement is true, and there is no evidence that that is the case.

So my feeling is that it is case unproved about the source. It might be the Russian state, but that is by no means certain, even though Mrs May seems to have been quite successful in convincing others that it is. The other possibilities (which might include another state player; or a sub-state level criminal group who have either stolen, or successfully made the agent) seem not to have been rigorously excluded.

Incidentally, I'm not sure what would be more worrying: that a state is acting with impunity to assassinate people in foreign countries, or that a non-state (criminal) organisation is doing so.

Putting a cynical slant on it, it all looks rather convenient for too many parties....

May - gets to play the iron lady and unleash the right wing media on Corbyn (BTW today's Mail front page makes classic reading for those informed enough to know about their historical support for Hitler....), when conveniently there are elections coming up where the polls suggest she was going to get a right kicking;
Putin - Gets to play the hard man, but also simultaneously the victim card - with, conveniently, elections coming up;
Trump - Gets to make a big deal of being 'hard on Russia' just as Mueller starts getting a little close to the door?

So under this analysis, it was actually AN Other who tried to off the pair, but everyone else, including the wrongly accused alleged perpetrators, jumped on the bandwagon post facto because it suited their political needs? Bit of a stretch isn't it? I get that the case is far from proven, but this is one hell of a leap isn't it? And if this is the work of the Russian state, it's hardly an isolated incident - from Litvinienko to the Malaysian airliner shot down over Ukraine, to the use of "Little Green Men" in creating a Ukrainian civil war, to their equally illegal proxy annexation of territory in Georgia, widespread interference in elections here, in the US and throughout Europe, to mutliple suspicious deaths of Putin opponents here and across Europe, Russia is a gangster state headed by a gangster who thinks he can kill, steal and wage illegal war at will. Sometimes the most obvious explanation is the most obvious because it's what happened.

The government will have received information from the intelligence services that gave them reason to justifiably accuse Russia.

As per normal it’s descended into the usual political point scoring by hard core blue and red supporters

Ha, ha, this made me laugh though:

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/16091634.south-swindon-politicians-unite-against-russias-unlawful-use-of-force/?ref=mr&lp=14

That'll make Putin think twice :)

tbf, Corbyn's got a point on that - Blair's dodgy dossier has permanently tarnished the credibility of "intelligence sources" as a justification for anything.

Arsenal draw CSKA in the Europa league.  You couldn't make it up!   ::)

Did Blair's dossier actually have much to do with intelligence services, wasn't it just cribbed from somebody's A level homework? Although it does bring Dr Kelly into the equation another great success from our security services....

There is obviously more evidence that Joe Public is not likely to see. Our allies in the US and Europe have seen what we've seen and are backing us. The timing is convenient for May, but to say the Russians might not have done it is a bit flat Earth for me.

https://twitter.com/RidT/status/974288060304297984?s=19

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/84plbu/remarkable_note_from_germany_london_shared_a/?st=jetxjuwt&sh=e96da2d2

But Corbyn was present at the Privy Council meetings discussing this matter. Whatever they know, he knows. I can’t imagine all these countries coming out in support of the UK doing so if they weren’t convinced of Russia's involvement.

Has there been a Privy Council meeting? I only saw on the news that he had been briefed as a member of the Privy Council?

Quite.  I think the obvious nature of this is that Russia has the nerve agent, has a potential motive and there are past incidents to support people from within Russia are the source of the attempt.  Precisely who and where is another question, but we have essentially asked them to give us an alternative, and all Russia has done is use the same line they fed Trump for his election, Fake News, Global Elitists etc.  It's clear as mud that Putin continues to move Russia towards some sort of odd mix of Soviet past and Emporer nature.  For that, you need enemies even if you don't want to fight proper wars.

Is it a coincidence that the poisoning occurred recently after the false accusations towards Corbyn that he was a Russian informant etc?
Is it also a coincidence that this has happend as the Tories fall behind in the polls?
Weak and wobbly Theresa is desperate to come across as strong and stable. The staged flowers, selfie and fist pump yesterday was laughable.
Now she has the opportunity to make it look like she's fighting for our nation. Seems very convenient to me. Why is there no footage whatsoever doing the rounds on this? Even if it was a Russian job I am sure we've had people bumped off all over the world. James Bond does it innit.

Sorry but Blair has forever discredited the use of undisclosed intelligence in this country by taking the country into an illegal war on the basis of such intelligence which turned out to be false and deliberately so. I think Corbyn's got the overall thing wrong, but I think he's on strong ground with this point.

Yes, but it's probably not a coincidence that two opponents of Putin have died shortly before the Russian polls this weekend. I'm no massive fan of May or the Tories myself but they're not in the same league as the gangsters running Russia.

Of the 2 of them getting poisoned? Probably because the fella doesn’t have CCTV installed in his house

Well, we don't know where the poison is supposed to have been administered do we?

I though it had been said the police believe it was in his house. I take it back if that isn’t the case

Think there's been several theories, I've heard a few versions on radio etc, suspect a lot of these are just journos jumping to conclusions and quoting anonymous "sources" to imply they're getting it from some inside track.

Is it safe to visit Wiltshire yet :)

If you have the nerve

Don't worry its all in hand and we are going to take strict action against Russia to stop them in their tracks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWtm6KasGgk

Meanwhile on the sub-continent, they conduct their spy rows with knockup ginger rather than polonium and nerve agents which, while less sophisticated, seems much more civilised:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/15/pakistan-recalls-diplomat-india-amid-harassment-claims-spies/

Regardless of my ill-informed opinion, they're blaming Vlad directly now.

So, here's the Telegraph's inside sources saying it was hidden in the daughter's luggage )and then somehow triggered on her arrival?)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/15/suitcase-spy-poisoning-plot-nerve-agent-planted-luggage-sergei/

Whereas the Graun's expert reckons it was a liquid sprayed on their clothes

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/16/skripals-may-have-received-nerve-agent-in-liquid-form-says-expert

But the Beeb are still keen on his car, whereas the Mail obviously know that it was Jeremy Corbyn who administered the attack.

Basically, no-one's got a fucking clue but there's  lot of speculation posing as informed sources

It was definitely Lee Power

Fact

Further from my Salisbury dwelling chemist acquaintance, who whilst not being a conspiracy theorist continues to raise some interestuing matters - whilst simultaneously getting extremely pissed off with the press outside his gaff!

There's a lot in the Government's story that doesn't seem to make sense. As an example, it was widely reported from Police sources that 38 people in Salisbury had been treated for poisoning as a result of the attack. Yet that assertion prompted a Consultant at Salisbury Hospital to write to "The Times" thus:

‘Sir, further to your report (‘Poision Exposure Leaves Nearly 40 needing Treatment’), may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.’
Stephen Davies (Consultant in Emergency Medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust)

Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/british-retaliation-against-russia-s-actions-p5hmpj8jh (registration required)
​
Which raises the question, where are these 38 people? How come not one seems to have been interviewed by the press? Surely it cannot be for want of trying, as to interview someone affected would be quite a scoop, and I know for a fact that the press have been quite intrusive trying to find information from local residents.

(And a second reading of that letter suggests to me that the Consultant is saying that even the Skripals weren't victims of nerve agent, but some other poison: "no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning").

Then there's the question of the table at Zizzi. Apparently it was so contaminated that it had to be destroyed. Yet Zizzi stayed open until Monday evening, a good 24 hours after the poisoning. So presumably dozens of people sat at that table on the Sunday evening, Monday lunchtime and so on, without ill effect, yet the table is so contaminated that it has had to be destroyed. Now that it has been destroyed, the British seem content to let inspectors from the OPCW come in to run their tests. One wonders what they will be given to test.

Lets be honest we will never have a clue but an inept government being reported on by a crap media opens all manner of avenues for those seeking scandal.

Maybe it never happened at all

Or did it.......

TBF this is a much more effective sanction than pointless expulsions or BJ blustering in Parliament and in the press.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/mar/22/ministers-vow-to-end-secrecy-around-foreign-ownership-of-uk-property

If it happens

No fucking hope of that in the slightest, remember that much of the reason many of the wealthy and powerful are pushing for Brexit is that the EU are cracking down on such financial matters, when we are Singapore of northern Europe its just going to get murkier. Plus there are too many MP's and Peers with property owned via offshore for it to pass the commons or Lords.

But don't worry, Johnson has now invoked Godwins Law on the whole thing so that will sort it all amicably - cannot conclude if its attention seeking of true cluelessness!

It's bluster and he knows it. Makes it look like he's being tough for domestic consumption so he doesn't actually have to do anything, given that most of his major interests in recent years - London, Brexit, the Tory party - are all knee-deep in dirty Russian money, he isn't going to bite the hand that feeds him. But would be nice if someone else in govt would, if only because they want to fuck Boris up

There's also a counter-theory of course, that Putin actually wants the oligarchs to be forced out of London so he can repatriate the cash and/or keep a closer rein on them. In which case Boris is just doing him a favour. Well, the Tories have been well paid for it, when all's said and done

A lot of of Brexiteers would probably welcome some Singapore style discipline....

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/singapore/local-laws-and-customs

TBF the coordinated expulsion of hundreds of Russian spies from over 20 countries yesterday was an impressive piece of diplomacy from May (as she seems to be taking credit for it, sidelining the oaf Johnson). If Putin's aim was, as some of the correspondents have suggested, to isolate Britain or expose our relative weakness in the world, it's backfired

So much for insignificant, isolated & sidestepped UK after Brexit and we have not left the EUSSR yet.

Indeed. May has pulled off quite a coup with this.

They quite like her over here - they don't really understand the Political Party differences but they see her as being very "proper" in comparison to what they see locally!

Well, its a fairly narrow field to select from the other side of "proper" isn't it.

That's purely the reason though...because we have not officially "left" yet. So for all intents and purposes every criteria we have with the EU still stands. Likely, most of those criteria will stand when we "leave". This is not really a coup by May it's just the right thing to do. No one wants a Cold War style stand-off (basically, my balls are bigger than yours). Russia has had a go at bullying and the rest of Europe has responded.

I'm more concerned at the "relations" and "tactics" N.K are currently operating. We can say it's an innocent attempt to bridge broken friendships (that would be true if only South Korea were being approached) but if N.K has an ally in China, it has an ally in Russia. There is a much bigger picture here. If the official meeting with Cheeto and KJ-U goes ahead, there is much to be scoffed at the promise of denuclearisation by themselves. We have to remember many World leaders have signed treaties and agreements in the past, only to work in total polarity to the very treaty that was signed.

Expelling diplomats. Pah.

Enough of this pissing about.
The Royal Navy should be deployed to the Baltic and the Black Sea to give the blighters a damn good hiding.

Stopping at Berlin in 1945 was a big mistake.
The Allies should have carried on to Vladivostok.

Bloody Russkis, coming over here, organising our crime, buying our football clubs, violating our airspace....

Spasibo!

So, Porton Down say they can't confirm it was Russian.

It doesn't mean it wasn't Russian, of course, and it doesn't mean the tories don't have sufficient evidence to say it was Russian.

What it does mean, though, is that Boris lied. Awkward.

Mr Aitkenhead added: "It is our job to provide the scientific evidence of what this particular nerve agent is, we identified that it is from this particular family and that it is a military grade, but it is not our job to say where it was manufactured."

Johnson is now being attacked for misleading the public.  As things stand, Putin wins the media battle.

If we cannot prove that Russia manufactured the nerve agent - and it's starting to look that way - is Putin not owed an apology?  Bit embarrassing.

Remember when Corbyn was ridiculed for daring to question the evidence ...

That said, it is just the manufacturing origin of the agent that can't be proven by examining the agent. You'd think we'd have other sources of proof it was Russian state sponsored.

Then I remembered the war over the WMDs...

I do fear that a lot of Countries have taken Johnsons word for it and acted in good faith accordingly - silly bastards I know....

Just thank god we are not about to step out into the world solo to try and trade on our good name and trustworthiness as a nation......

Probably a daft question but how are you supposed to trace who made it?

No idea, way above my paygrade. The fact that despite the Governments protestations regarding source, the recipe for it can be found in textbooks and it could be made in small yet sufficient amounts in a University level laboratory suggests its could be a a very large suspect list.

To follow recent trends I suspect Jeremy Corbyn made it!

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

It doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have sufficient evidence. They could have pieced together the information from Porton Down with other intelligence to come to a solid conclusion.

Which begs the question: Why did Boris lie? Why the need to embellish, or even completely fabricate, the discussion with PD. Why not just tell the 'truth'?

I assume you are taking the piss, as recent events have proven Johnson would not know the truth if it walked up to him and clattered him squarely in the scrotum.....

If the DG of the BBC studies recent history and quite likes his job, he will not be breaking any stories about Boris "sexing up" the evidence.  

I have to say the likely truth of the Iraqi WMD "sexing up" claim was apparent to me at the time - as a result of the available evidence that the UK chose to exclude.

Let's at least hope that our distrust of Russia does turn out to be well founded, unlike the WMD piffle, as the UK's reputation abroad will be severely diminished at a time that it needs trust from its friends.

Will it now be down to either the head of the Porton Down Defence and Technology Lab or Boris Johnson to resign over lying - or will we get some "miracle mangling" of the English Language to show Boris didn't lie?

Not exactly holding my breath but not yet switching to RT (Russia Today) for my TV updates.

Might get the old "truth is not in the national interest"

Because he can't help himself, he's like Trump, he lies even when he doesn't need to. And, like Trump, is too lazy to listen properly to his briefings or read his briefing notes. He'll have just heard "Yada yada Russia" and then decided on whatever narrative suited him. The thing is as you say, there almost certainly is the evidence to show the Russians did it, just not all from Porton Down but Johnson's lazy incompetence and habitual lying has now undermined our case to make it look like another dodgy dossier again. Yet more reasons why the fuckwit shouldn't be employed in any more responsible capacity than fetching the office tea (and even then don't trust the fucker with the kitty, his continued employment in one of the great offices of state is a signal demonstration to the world of our government's weakness and by extension our weakness as a country. He is a genuine threat to our national security

What still doesn't add is if the agent was administered to the victims via the door handle, if Novichok is as deadly as people say how come they managed to leave the house, wander into town, go and have something to eat, then go for a pint and then collapse simultaneously onto a park bench a decent period after the nerve agent was administered?

Despite what the government and BBC are so desperately trying to spin, OPCW have not supported the governments position, they have merely agreed that the agent is Novichok and made no comment at all on source, although why it took the UK 15 days to ask them to get involved raises even more questions?

Not saying a know an awful lot before anyone shoots me down. I did realise that the agent used could be Novichok-5 and mentioned also much before it was released in the media. Well done me  ::) The reason I came to this conclusion was because of the time it took for them to start feeling unwell. It's not a particulate agent which would affect the body instantly, and certainly not via the method being claimed (if a version had been injected or forcibly applied with direct entry to the skin, or other routes of entry then of course a quicker contamination would have been achieved). I suppose an easy way of explaining this would be via "cow pat" theory.

For e.g they both touch the handle (the cow pat) and carry a small amount onto their own hands (direct contact), they touch their jacket, trousers, face (further direct contact) and so on, At this point all they will be doing is spreading the 'cowpat' but not making any instant harm. The skin is a pretty good repellent unless there is a route of entry (a shaving cut, an open spot or other minor open wound). The unknowing danger that the stuff is now everywhere, creating a likelihood of ingestion even higher. It's quite possible that the ingestion didn't happen until they went and had a pint/ate lunch. It would also support them both becoming more increasingly unwell at a similar rate. So although they are externally contaminated it would be reasonable to suggest that it was sometime before they became internally contaminated.

As I understand, Novichok-5 and other NAs are largely internal hazards, other complex ones can be designed to burn/irritate skin in order to gain a route of entry. N-5 would likely have been identified by using a Mass Spectrometer (yes it is a thing), I've used these myself in the past, not for N-5 but they are the go to equipment for detailed structure elucidation. I would guess most people wouldn't necessarily understand, initially how NA, CA, and RA substances affect the body. Having that knowledge is probably more helpful in understanding how they came to become unwell. Let's face it, it's not something that many of us will have in our vicinity on a daily basis.

Sorry that's a little long winded. I don't know everything about NAs but I do have enough in my loaf to figure out how they work and to have narrowed it down to a particular group within the NA table. In short, it's not when they got contaminated but when the agent gained a route of entry to the body.

Ok, but doesn't it seem incredibly coincidental that two people who from their photos have extremely different body masses are affected at exactly the same time?

Theres only one question from me.If they wanted them dead,why aren't they?

I can see a logic there if both were of similar age and health. YS may have a much better immune system but smaller body mass. Her body may have fought it a lot longer, before the NA managed to permanently open all her secretory, salivary, and merocrine glands (and much more). Whereas SS could have a weaker immune system but larger body mass, and so on. This could correlate to them falling unwell at roughly the same time. That being said, as previously mentioned above with N-5 being an internal hazard, body mass won't really be it's concern as once ingestion/inhalation has occurred and it's entered the bloodstream that's when the damage will really start to kick in.

Imagine, how alpha particles work. They largely cannot penetrate a layer of skin so they can't really do much damage yet whatever there is within that alpha should be decontaminated or an item of clothing removed, sealed and bagged. When the alpha becomes at most dangerous is when it gets inside the body, because they're bloody stubborn buggars and like to imitate cells, just not in a good way.

To back up the 'affected at the same time' while having different body masses. Obviously the internal processes that would occur would devalue any 'but he's 4x bigger than her' theory. Also in reference to their relative immune systems, YS recovery rate against SS recovery rate would give evidence to suggest that YS was able to get the NA out of her body much quicker. Without knowing DRs (Dose Rates) we can't personally confirm if YS had more or less exposure of it than SS. We only know they were in the same environment at the same time and thus a conclusion would suggest that they both had similar levels of exposure.

When it comes to NA, CA, and RA, they care very little for the physical composition of a human being.


Adje - They (whoever they actually is) most likely did want SS dead or at the very least to cause serious harm. Let's not pretend SS is not still in a very bad way, despite media reports and he could yet still not survive this.

I thought the nerve agent was diluted somewhat because they manufactured it in gel form. Hence why they both survived.

You seem to know a fair bit about this Mikhail ;)

Niet

Awesome.

Wouldn't that be answered by the suggestion that it was all over their clothes, hands etc but didn't penetrate the skin. And they then both ingested it when they went to lunch (because it was already on their hands etc and so from there got on the cutlery, glasses, food etc)?

I've already answered that, pretty much the same way you have  :D

Yes sorry, I was referring to/simplifying your answer, should have made that clear. I have no idea how this shit works, whereas you are either a tremendous bullshitter or someone I'm very keen not to upset :)

Ooops shit. I didn't see your reply so I'll remove the highlighted quote. Yes, i'm prone to rambling on. I'm also prone to a bit of bullshit. That's why I could tell DF was one a mile off. However, I do know a fair bit about this kind of stuff. I'm no expert mind and I can understand why I got shouted down a bit for my comments earlier in this thread in respect to the initial response (maybe my comment got took out of context, maybe I wasn't too clear on things. Oh well, fuck it).

I know enough and enough is fine for me. You or anyone else has nothing to worry about  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: Oh ffs, I've rambled again.

Again?

Its yet not clear whether its a second poisoning, or if its an accidental contamination from the original attack.

Some expert on the beeb reckoned it was unlikely to be the latter, but nobody in the media has volunteered a motive for a deliberate attack  (unlike the obvious one on the first poisoning).

Very early days though, who the f**k knows. My first thought was accidental contamination ...

If it was accidental contam (I assume you mean from Novichok-5) then it's likely these people would've been treated at a similar time. Why? N-5, like many agents and other particulate tend to have a very short half-life. Unless sealed in a vacuum for three months, it would have dissipated by now. The levels would basically have gone lower than any recommended DR (dose rate) level. Any moisture or being airborne would deal with this particular contaminant.

I'll conclude it's a fresh poisoning. The N-5 poisoning was all low key at first if I remember... However there's not enough detail knocking around right now. It could well be something totally different.

I'm sure someone will be quick to call me out RE: Public Services again.

I reckon that some sneaky spy types were trying to get back into russia under cover of travelling to the worldcup and thought they'd ditch their stash on the way out.

Who knows, the official line on the original incident is full of holes and I cannot see this being any different...

Load of bollocks, yet again.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44719639

Yet there were scores of experts (including those on the BBC) last time stating categorically that (as an example);

'These agents react with water to degrade, including moisture in the air, and so in the UK they would have a very limited lifetime. This is presumably why the street in Salisbury was being hosed down as a precaution – it would effectively destroy the agent.'

They seem to be wheeling out experts to confirm whatever the government line is, so months back it was 'nothing to worry about', now 'it must be the Russians again'

Ultimately its way above my pay grade, my mate who is a chemist (and coincidentally lives in Salisbury), when theories were being randomly thrown about by us fuckwits this morning added these two...

4. There's a rogue element inside Porton Down (about three miles away)

5. It isn't Novichok, but something like Fentanyl - the symptoms in both this case and the Skripal case fit better with the known effects of Fentanyl than the alleged effects of Novichok (whatever they happen to be this week - the effects keep changing)

 :hmmm:

So 5 = stitch up the Russians then?

Wow. I like option 4.

They've experimented on people in the past.

I bet there aren't many rough sleepers to be found in the area.

No bollocks from me, but believe whatever you want to believe.

Many particulate when mixed with water provides a lesser D/R. Trouble is water is a 'good' moderator. Our body is made up of mostly water. Novichok in a sealed container on the side will not hurt you. Why? It contaminates not radiates. It is an internal hazard. Like an alpha particle won't get through your skin layer but if ingested or injected into the body then you're in a lot of trouble.

However I don't need to tell you any of this because you already know.

Fentanyl theory is interesting, although it is basically an opioid. I thought it had been ruled out that they weren't heroin addicts? Cafentanil (think that's how is spelt) would be another similar opioid. Although I'm not sure it would be this.

Can't remember who said it but another theory is someone finding/discovering (somehow, seems far fetched unless you are working in those environments or are targeted) <insert contaminant> and then subsequently exposing themselves to it.

I still stand by what I say; most contaminants are generally dealt with by moisture, either naturally or through decontam processes and because o the usually low half life that they possess.

I'm thick on stuff like this. Why? If they were together all day, and this is fast acting, did they fall ill several hours apart? Even odder that the GF/wife was in hospital, and the bloke was still at home. lots don't add up to me with this.

Fentanyl IS an opioid. Carfentanyl is a fentanyl analog, certainly has the power to be used in this way but I don't know much about that side of things.

Tbh i'm not massively up on my opioids (oo-er), I've heard of several but I ignorantly just thought that both were synthetic opioids? Going full circle in a way, Carfentanil is exactly the reason why I mentioned it because I know it's bloody dangerous. Much more dangerous than Fentanyl. Which is pretty strong stuff alone.

When Horlock mentioned his Chemist mate suggested Fentanyl as a theory, Carfentanil came to mind but you corrected me as I'd forgotten not only it's spelling but it's true categorisation. Didn't realise it was an analog. Cheers.

Gwh on shutdown because a police officer has been admitted, suspected of nerve agent damage

Bit closer to home that is....

Now being transferred to Salisbury, worrying times.

Given all clear, drama over. ED back open at GWH.

Good to see they didn't take any chances, symptoms are quite wide ranging.

good stuff.

plus on a selfish point of view I have a knee appointment Wednesday

Has to happen when I'm on call! Was shitting it yesterday. All clear now.

Dawn Sturgess, the women that was recently exposed, has died :(

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-44760875?__twitter_impression=true (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-44760875?__twitter_impression=true)

That's a massive shame. A potential case of "Ye know too much!"

Eh? Last week you were trying to tell us she wasn't posioned with Novowhatnot but had instead been doped on opioids, now she apparently "knew too much". About what?

Bamboo is becoming the General Discussion Chang

No I didn't. Read back. I said it could be a new poisoning (still of N-5), unless the people in questioned found the original receptacle and it was sealed with in it (discussed with Batch I think). I then said that the Fentanyl theory was an interesting one (as mentioned by Horlock RE: His Chemist mate) but I was under the impression the people concerned weren't heroin addicts. Which is what led me to link to Carfentanil.

Me and Ells then had a brief discussion/correction about Carfentanil classification/analog status. I mentioned I wasn't massively "knowledged up" on my Opioids.

I've then just said, "potentially a case of knowing too much..." Totally different to saying "she definitely knew too much".

I didn't realise I wasn't allowed to make tongue in cheek comments.

Anyway, my stance has been that it was N-5 but not the same batch as the Skripal one. Unless it was sealed in a container, then it could well be. It'd be pretty shoddy work from a "Spy" if they disposed of it in a hedge. Would also bring into question why it wasn't found (in the same park, the name escapes me) in the days after the Skripal poisoning. This is what leads me to think it is N-5 but another batch.

What do I know? I know nothing.

Jayo is fast becoming the spokesperson for the NHS  ;)

Sorry, I couldn't resist the bite  :D

Yeah, definitely. Think you've been watching too many Bourne films.

Pmsl. I've only ever watched one Bourne film. The first one. I wouldn't know what happens in the others. Much of the same, I'd guess? Kind of like Taken, Rocky and Fast & Furious...once you've seen one you've seen the bloody lot.

So the people "they" intended to kill survive and some innocent drug addict dies accidentally.Weird

Actually, I haven't seen any of them but given the Ludlum books they were based on were all pretty much identical, I'd guess so :)

Coppers have removed a car from an address in Swindon in connection with investigation:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/09/novichok-poisoning-second-victim-could-have-just-days-live/

As I have said before I can only base what I think on the analysis of a mate with a chemistry PhD who entirely coincidentally lives in Salisbury (within the area of increased police activity, and thus whose car has had its own personal police guard for a couple of months now), he believed it at the start, but as time has gone on the official story is full of holes you could drive a bus through, for instance the agent formula is available online and can be made in a university level chemistry lab (despite the reporting that it can only be made by a state level operation), plus the fact that DEFRA told them all at a residents briefing that under no circumstances was there anything to worry about as in a damp climate the toxin degrades quickly and water washes it away entirely and yet now 2 months on it can apparently remain for months?

But then again perhaps I have been tainted into cynicism with our leaders by being told by a family friend who was one of the first to attend the David Kelly site that in no way whatsoever could what they encountered have been a suicide....

Ohhh I love a proper conspiracy theory. I've always thought that Kelly was bumped off.

tbh, I just kind of assumed everyone sort of "knew" that and the only people who are still trying to pretend it was anything other than murder are Blair and Straw.

(https://s20.postimg.cc/4sitmcx9p/IMG-20180710-_WA0000.jpg)

God thats a bad taste joke.

Novichok means newcomer. Perhaps that was manufactured before all the events in Salisbury?

No.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristol-distillery-apologises-murdered-womans-1763839

Might be OK with Orange Juice, though?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DehpLC_XUAIGRo1.jpg)

More bad taste

Looks like she’s gained an extra fanny

I see that Charlie Novichok has gained consciousness. So soon he should be able to tell where he was scavenging to come across the stuff.

Not that I wish it at all, but do you think we'll actually get any of that on the official line?

We know what hes going to say "I got it off some bloke in a fur hat with a foreign accent"

Called Obilinskavinsky?

I've been waiting a long time to get a quiz question about Prince Obolensky..... egg chasing refugee from the Bolsheviks.... scord a try v All Blacks on debut in 36 and died youing in 39, having joined the RAF, in a plane crash.

My influence was more Monty Python than Rugger Bugger

You don't get out much, do you?

Goings on again in Salisbury at the moment.

Are the Russians now demanding their nerve agent containers back

so clear in Salisbury this time. cautious approach understandable

 They’ve found the source of the Novichok. In a bottle in the fella’s house. Scavenging off the agenda now!

He only lives in a small flat, how's it taken them this long? Starting to wonder if bamboo and horlock have a point

They've taken their time soaking off the Porton Down stickers.

Ooh, sleepers screwed up maybe

I am inclined to agree with the Russian government when they basically said "If Russia was indeed to the instigators then the target would no longer be alive".

Not that I don't trust this government....but I don't.

Yeah most certainly. I'm 99% sure it's not them. There will be a film starring Pierce Brosnan about this in a few years, co starring Sandy Toksvig, and Ade Edmonson for realism.

Found in a perfume bottle apparently. It just gets weirder.

that sounds like a good place to hide it.

not sure how the poor sods that got sick got their hands on it mind

found it whilst foraging for dog ends apparently.

So, apparently he thought it was perfume, gave it her as a present, she sprayed it on her wrists, fell ill within a few minutes. Poor sods :(

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44947162

Lesson for all romantics, don't give your partner gifts you scavenge from bins!

The story reads very oddly, he seems to have very vague ideas of certain bits, but then is entirely clear on other bits?

His is probably proper fucked. Can you blame him?!

Aren't they both recovering alcoholics/addicts? Bit of vagueness tends to come with the territory

Possibly so, but in light of the on-going investigation and potentially international scope of the scandal I cannot believe for one minute that any interview with the media has not been heavily managed and the results subject to review by those investigating?

Not everything is a conspiracy though. He may genuinely not know

We have footage of several suspicious looking men who"are probably Russian and probably no longer in the country"
Sorted

Absolutely no doubt about that. However, the whole situation is so bizarre it has to be true doesn't it? He obviously got it off the back of a van.

Glad the extra 3.99 I invest for birthdays and anniversaries at the local service station has been so shrewd.

It’s our wedding anniversary today - or it could be Sunday. Neither of us is sure which it is.

And they say romance is dead!

Facebook was kind enough to inform me of a recent anniversary.

"Thanks facebook", I thought before going to the other room to say happy anniversary to the wife, feeling rather pleased with myself.

"WTF", a confused looking wife replied. "It is not our anniversary"

On further investigation, it transpired that it was not our wedding anniversary FB was congratulating me on, but the anniversary of my wife and I becoming friends on facebook.

The moral of the story is: Don't trust Facebook.

Especially if you're prone to fuckwhittery

Absolutely.

We deliberately chose the 5th November so I couldn't forget. Although I do like to tease when it gets near by muttering remember remember the 6th November, just within hearing range. Always goes down well..

I'm not married but we've never bothered with an anniversary yet, I don't see why that would change if we ever did tie the knot. Bloody pointless if you ask me.

Still, one can live without perfume. It was tea with Litvenenko wasn't it? That's much more inconvenient. Although a much more rubbish present.

 :D

Interesting developments.

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/16402540.wiltshire-novichok-poisoning-suspects-extradition-to-be-requested/

I read last night that they've tracked the two suspects coming in and out of the country and concluded that they sprayed the agent onto the door handle of his home via a perfume bottle. The bottle was then probably dumped somewhere in the town and that is when the unconnected woman and man got involved - he found the perfume and gave it to her. She sprayed it on her wrists and died whilst he survived.