Thetownend.com

Firstly you'll have to forgive me for being a bit out of touch with everything at the moment, because I am. But as the season edges nearer I've been reading a lot of the comments coming from Power, Cooper, etc. and generally trying to keep tabs on the noises coming out of The County Ground.

Many have commented on here that Cooper seems pessimistic in A. Making any signings and B. Keeping hold of our current team. I also saw an article on Power a while back where he commented that he was considering cutting the the wage budget, if the gate wasn't met. The numbers were £1,800,000 a year based on 7,500 a game I believe?

This got me thinking about the finances and I looked for comments on this on this forum. Many have commented Powers explanation of using a 'sustainable model' which I get and understand. I completely agree with this model.

The problem I have is that the more I think about it....the more I can't understand why we seem to be in such a dire position financially with our squad.

If Power was quoted as saying he needs 7,500 gates to keep our £1,800,000 wage budget. I can't understand why? If half of that is made up of season tickets, that's £1,125,000 at £300 a go (pretty sure they're more expensive, but lets go conservative to include concessions), if the other half is made up of ticket purchases at £20 average(again, to be conservative), that's another £1,725,000....so £2,850,000 revenue a season just on home league ticket sales only.

I understand that there are plenty of other costs in running a football club, but £1m a year costs? This is before anyone has bought a burger, a coke, a replica shirt, before any money has come from sponsorship or cup games,etc.

Am I the only one that thinks that things aren't adding up? It worries me that comments are being made about selling players and cutting the wage budget, when a quick calculations seem to indicate that our budget is already very conservative for the amount of money that should be coming in.

Is this possibly Power's attempt to recoup his £2m that he claims to have put in to the club? Is there any evidence that he actually kept this in the club anyway?

Forgive me for being skeptical...but as happy as I am we didn't end up with Jed, I can't say I trust Power either. I have serious concerns Power is having a party on our wallets just as much as Jed was. If anyone is able to rationalsie the circumstances/debunk my concerns, I'll be more than happy to be proved wrong.

Your first problem is that you assume that football finances are as black and white as what you've written in your post. It is never, ever that simple.

Your second problem is that the calculations you have done are probably wildly inaccurate.

Your third problem is that no one can know until any accounts are published.

Tbh it's got to a point where I can't be arsed to talk or really think about it too much. I just want to go and watch some football. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't starting to get concerned about how our team is shaping up at the moment. But as it stands, I have no reason to distrust Power or Cooper. I just hope they know what they're doing as it's looking like this year will be all about survival.

Both points really are why I've tried to be so conservative with the figures used. Out of interest, how much was a season ticket to renew this year? I didn't get one last year so I'm a little out of the loop.

In the DRS - £375 ish with the early bird/10% discount, about 410 ish without.

Ouch. I knew there was a reason I didn't even contemplate it. Town End?

The other 1 million would cover about 20 staff on 20k-25k  a year. I think we have more than that in FTE's, so that would eat that for starters.

I'm not sure about figures in the TE, sorry.

I think what Tails says is salient, I doubt that anyone on here is going to REALLY know the income and expenditure of STFC, sans accounts.

Rent is expensive as well, council give us nothing really but take their rent - when we pay it!  Other costs we need to factor in would be away travel and hotel, food expenses.  Not sure how much we make out of the food outlets as Jed sold that off!!  There are lots of expenses we don't know about I would guess, general maintenance on ground and pitch must be costly.  FWIW I never trused Jedco but I don't think Power is out of the same mould as him so until we find something wrong give him a chance.

The Council do give us a ground in return for the rent which seems pretty fair to me.

And the fourth is that any set of financial statements are, by their very nature, a historical document.  Even when they hit the filing deadline set by Companies House - which, as we know, does not always happen - the period that the accounts relate to is often, in football terms, another era.  How are the revenues and costs stacking up for the early part of next season?  No idea.  But if you can be bothered to wait for the accounts, you'll find out some time in 2016.

 Look at a copy of the administration statement of 12 years ago, which lists 14 A4 pages of creditors not paid for the various services you need to run even a small football club.

 So for example £37,295.91 to Wilts police.....£7,178.50 to Wilts ambulance.  £22,252.99 to Thames Water. £10, 616.75 for fire protection etc.  £4,312.46 to Jewsons.  £16,000 to security consultants. £12,000 to Barnes. £3,139.03 to Biffa Waste.
£3,230.30 to East Lancs Towel Company...as I say 14 pages of this shit.

East Lancs Towel Co?

No wonder they were so expensive travelling that far just to change the towels

Probably a fairer way of looking at my concerns would be looking at how a £1,800,000 yearly wage budget for a team with a £19-£25 ticket price and 7,500 fans stacks up against other teams in this division?

Anyone know what other teams in this league look like for their budget compared to their average attendance and ticket prices? Obviously transfer fees would need to be looked at as well which is kind of irrelevant where we're concerned as we're not buying anyone.

Not sure why I'm posting this... East Lancs Towel Co is an Anagram of "Coals to Newcastle". Just finished the morning crossword with me coffee and it just jumped out at me.......:-)

You need to get out more

The men in white coats at the bottom of the room won't let me :-)

Possibly bollocks....but a post on an Oldham forum (ironically moaning about Di Canio's expenditure here) states for 12/13 season Bury had a wage budget of £1,300,000.

Their ticket prices that season were £15 an adult match day and they had an average gate of 3,552. If that's true that's roughly 75% of our budget with about a third of the income we have looking solely at ticket sales.

Detractors firstly would question if the figures are true/correct....but I would question even if it's spot on, if that budget was sustainable for Bury.

1) From memory of previous seasons when we did have figures (and no I can't find them now, hence the "from memory") you've grossly overestimated the number of full price season tickets and walk-up tickets. It's more like half are discounts (kids, students, OAPs, disabled) IIRC
2) Thanks to JedCo, Steve M and Co we don't get any money from catering sales as they flogged those off for the next 10 years to an outside company - who says you can't asset strip a company with no assets?
3) The above two things aside, you may well still have a point but I doubt it's as cut and dried as you make out. And relying on equally "back of a fag packet" figures from other team's forums doesn't do much to bolster the argument, other than to show that every teams fans reckon "Well, we must be making more than THAT, where's it all going then?"

That, allied with most fans aversion to the temerity of an owner actually taking ANY money from a club.

They should only put money IN, don't you know!

Which would have been a 2 million loss had they not sold players -

'largely due to the sale of players which generated almost £4 million during the year. It was in this period that Sam Baldock was sold to West Ham and Seyi Ojo to Liverpool.'

They must also make a fair wedge from the ground the other 340 odd days a year there isn't a game on.

Conference facilities, etc

Message deleted as soon as I posted it....Would help if I read the article a bit more before posting.

That article actually actually helps make me feel a bit better about it all, as those figures add up a bit better.

A few have made comparisons to Crew....

Crew 12/13

Alleged wage budget: £2,160,000 (source; chairman in Crew Chronicle)
Match day ticket price: £20
Average attendance: 4903

20% higher budget, just over half the income. On the face of it this doesn't look good at all, but I should think that is heavily reliant on selling players for extra income.

I think they may have sold Nick Powell for what, 6 million that season as well CWIG?

I'm sure they didn't know when they made the budget that was going to happen....but I did say that I'm sure the budget is heavily reliant on selling to make up a loss.

You sound like a teenager who's parents won't buy him the expensive designer clothing because they can't afford it, but still moan about it anyway. You've even accused them of spending more on themselves than on you and that they're doing a shit job at parenting.

Our income appears to be well above average for the division looking at our ticket prices and gate (£23-£27 and about 8,000), yet our expenditure appears to be well below average (£1,800,000 wage bill and jack shit transfer fees)

Is pointing that out and questioning it really as petulant as you claim?

But you have no idea what the 'other' running costs of the club are, as Reg alluded.

Rent for the ground, vehicle leases, non-playing staff etc. etc.

Not to mention debt servicing, there's probably quite a lot of that.

And the towels, don't forget the towels ...

All costs I'm sure other clubs have to attend to also (minus the towels). Why are we so different from all of them? Are we suddenly the only club that's decided we're not going to spend above our means?

Yes, I do think you're being petulant. Given the fact we've made a loss every year* for as long as I can remember then I think it's obvious why our budget is so low. Don't forget that this is the budget we must submit to the football league etc. and we will be held against.

In the case of Crewe here's what Soccerbase states their income from transfers as for each season:


That won't take into account cash flow and add-ons etc. But that's close to £10m in 6 seasons.

We can all second guess the finances and I'm certain we're not home and dry in terms of being shafted by the owners/stewards of the club, but you do have to take things like the above into account and also clubs like us who have relied on their owners to keep them afloat. The fact Power has apparently sunk in £2m already is testament to that.


*except that one year where we made extraordinary gains and actually made a profit.

I didn't realise giving a point of view and sparking a debate is petulant....or is it only petulant when you disagree?

My team isn't spending what other teams are and we're not going to be as good. Waaaaaahhhh.

If we aren't going to spend well above our means, then if not the only one, we're certainly probably one of the very few. It's one of the many things that's fundamentally broken in English football.

http://www.towelcompany.co.uk/

Fuck all to do with it...the reason for my post is because we've seen countless people at this football club who have been here for the sole purpose to line their own pockets at our expense. I'm worried Power could be another and I wanted to spark a reasonable debate on this. If you're incapable of contributing to this debate without adding insults, then don't bother as you're really not adding any value to the thread.

I stated in my original post the following points

1. I understand going for a sustainable model
2. I am all for it
3. I'm open for debate and would be happy hold the opposite point of view by the end of said debate, if my mind can be changed.

You ignored all of this. I'm guessing because either you're stupid, a cunt, or both.

You're ignoring the facts. Stop being petulant  :D

That really might be the answer.

I had some figures a minute ago on Port Vale which I no longer have to hand....but i compared their alleged budget last season to us now. Their budget was about 35% higher but their income must have been about 25% lower...but they're actually an example which would be more 'for Power' as there were articles stating they were spending beyond their means and even suspect of breaching financial fair play.

Whereas you ignored the glaring holes in your assumptions. Which are you? :)

I strongly suspect it is. And perhaps the real question (or a better question at least) is not so much are we spending "under" our means, but are we actually spending more conservatively than other comparable teams because they're spending recklessly or because our owner is trying to cream off a difference (which is what your concern is)? And the answer is, we don't have enough facts to be able to answer that.

Doesn't make your concerns any less valid, but I don't think you're going to be able to prove it either way.

I haven't ignored anything. I think it was pretty obvious I was using rough, loose figures just to give some indication and spark a debate. Even my own mind isn't completely made up, but I do have concerns and wonder what the rest of the fanbase is thinking.

I'm not sure how that would make me stupid or a cunt, but maybe you've misunderstood.

That's pretty much it.

Good to see the LTC still going strong, despite us not paying them for their products.  You can't give the modern footballer anything less than the best when it comes to pre/post, match/training ablutions...and that doesn't come cheaply.

It was Power that called Jed out on money that had 'disappeared' from the club. It'd be very silly of him to go public with that and then try and do something similar. Although, I suppose, hiding in plain sight and all that.

If anything, he may be drawing repayments for the money he (allegedly) put into the club. If that's the case and it's a formalised loan agreement, I've no problem with it. Not every chairman is so open to making zero interest loans.

Are you going to take your thread and go home? Hilarious over reaction.

I think it's a worthwhile debate....FWIW, I think the question marks about Power, are held in check as long as he can continue to get pretty decent young players, from various sources, cheaply.  If he loses that happy knack and we start to struggle majorly, then the questions might start to get more forensic.

How is it an overreaction? I'm certainly not angry.

If you quoted the full post and not just that bit, I was actually trying to help him understand the point of the thread which he seemed to miss. Jumping in with insults on threads you haven't even got the gist of is pretty pointless and I was pointing that out really....but I'm glad I gave you a giggle.

I'd go with that....the jury is still out, at least until accounts are published.

I'm probably less inclined to cut him some slack and more inclined to scrutinise him more, a little bit due to frustration of not being able to afford to go to every game like I used to and then hearing that some games next year will be at £27 a ticket which I find insane for any League One game even if it is only a handful of games.

In the past I, too, would be flapping about what is happening behind the scenes - but after all the years I've done that I've come to the conclusion that I can't change a thing so I've taken a 'fuck it' attitude and concentrate on what happens on the pitch.

Erm, I was taking the piss, quoting your own post. Calm down, dear.

 :doh:

I didn't know you could make towels using bamboo fibre. My mind is blown.

Well that's just spoiling the players. We shouldn't panda to them like that :)

I don't care if Power does make money from the club, what really matters is how well the club is run while he is doing it. If we continue to flirt with the playoffs and perhaps even go up one year then you will hear no complaints from me.

Agree with that.

Well I'd have no problem in him sharing in profits anyway.

On top of the other responses to this, which I won't restate, it's worth pointing out that you've sort of ignored the clubs obligations to HMRC in your calculations of income.

I know the board have been quite happy to pretend that VAT doesn't apply to STFC in the past, but I'd hope we've improved on those days.

Add to that Agents fees,on going court cases,outstanding transfer fees,loan fees etc

Please don't overlook towel fees or assorted linen fees as well.

Or water and flowers, in the last Admin we owed over a grand to Culligan for water, and almost a grand to the flower shop bottom of Vic Hill.

Don't suppose the water was to stand the flowers in...

As for linen fees, easy to confuse the grand owed to British Linen, as somehow connected to cleaning fabrics, but in fact it's a finance arm of a Sweatie bank.  The cleaning linen grand owed to Paragon laundry.

He (Power) sounded more than a tad frustrated tonight.

I honestly think he will have to cash in on one maybe two players come January , so frustrating as always we find a way to shoot ourselves in the foot when things are going well. He can do no more really I think it is a myth that reducing the ticket price by £5 will see an increase .

I think it would definitely see an increase....how much of an increase though is open for debate.

If we do have to sell then you've got to say that Lee Power has signposted it well in advance. I feel sorry for the guy. He's delivered everything he said he would but is paying for Jed, Diamandis, Donegan etc. I wouldn't be surprosed to see him go and recreate his vision somewhere else unelss crowds increase dramatically. Maybe if we can do the Slave Traders then people might come back. I do get the impression thuogh that those we've lost ain't coming back, certainly the ones I know. 

I have a feeling that an upswing may be around the corner.  These things tend to build over time; they don't happen overnight.  A sustained spell of relative success and off-field stability, and things will turn - I'm sure of it.  For a start, I would expect to see a lot of 6 & 8 game packages being bought as Christmas presents.

Would also be interesting to know how much of the recent downturn in crowds is Swindon-specific, and how much is due to a national effect.  I get the impression that there are a lot of clubs out there suffering poor attendances as folk continue to feel the pinch financially.

Then the focus should be on attracting people who are new to the sport to replace those leaving at the other end. I'm one of the "lost" and can't really envisage ever going more than a couple of times a season now. Those who have got fed up with it are less likely to have their passion rekindled than drawing somebody new in, who might fall in love with it.

There are so many people around this area of all ages that support prem teams, back in 1970's Calne it was all Liverpool or Man Utd (and nothing has really changed). When I look back a lot of that 'support' was to do with bragging rights "my team is better than yours " etc. Never saw too many Chelsea or Arsenal shirts back then but you do now, why is that?   :sherlock:

How many of you were introduced to stfc from parents taking you to a match as a child?  Not me, I  first went at the suggestion of friends (one was a pox fan), I was 19.
DMR is right, new support needs to be found. How are the dongs doing it (considering they have been around only since 2004)?

Are the missing 1000 or so ST holders from last season who didn't renew cos of the Jed effect?

If so, I struggle to understand why they, who are obviously 'entrenched' fans, are now not even bothering to be matchday walk-ups.

Surely you can't lose all interest that quickly - especially considering how well we are playing.

They haven't really been pissed off yet. No rip off chairmen/boards and everything for them is still pure.

Stick a Jed-alike  in there for a season and see what happens

I have supported this club since Brunel was laying his railway out to Minety!!  But i lost all interest in it during the Diamandis era and stopped going, determined not to give the fat greek a penny of my money.  It was a chance business meeting with Bushey (I used to do some work for his father) and he actually bought me a ticket, picked me up from home, took me to the Merlin and returned me home after the game.  I gradually got interested again and have had a season ticket for several seasons now, in fact my son, his girlfriend and a grandson all sit together with ST's now and I once again, cannot envisage the day when I will not be supporting my club - mind you that lying twat McCrory came close to making me change my mind!!!

Kid a quid for Under 16's is one way of doing it we had an extra 1000 on the gate against Colchester, a father who does not go regularly is more likely to take his kid. £12 for a child is way too much and that will stifle our support long term as less and less kids will attend. Orient, Yeovil and Franchise all had much lower kids tickets in recent matches I have attended with my boys. I am a season ticket holder with an 11 and 14 year old boys they like to come now and again but I am not prepared to pay £12 each for them, for me this is where Power needs to address the issue by making U16 tickets a fiver or less and get the next generation at the CG.

Best suggestion so far.

This season depends on Power's belief in the team.

If he genuinely believes we will be promoted this attendance blip will be forgotten. Crowds will pick up if we sustain our league position and if we do get to the Championsip I would imagine crowds would be around the 12000 mark

And it was Bushey who introduced me to the TEF!!!

I agree.
My dad first took me to watch Swindon back in 1997, then following season they had 'kid for a quid' each game and we went about 15 times during the season. Then it was sporadic (maybe 5 games a season) until 2002/03 season when I started going on my own and bought a season ticket, which I had up until the 2009 when I left the UK.

I must avoid looking at otib  :facepalm:

Our crowds are down on what we are used to,  but in this division I would assume we are in the top half?

Been over this a million times, people are skint. I normally do 15+ games a season. This year 0. the reason, although I earn a pretty high wage my wife was made redundant and is now on a third of her previous wage, hence disposable income gone in a flash, and no immediate sign of it recovering. Bet if you did a poll there would be multiple examples in the same vein. If I could I'd be there every game, I cant, so is that an excuse or a fact of life?  

At the Colchester game I bumped into a couple of people I know who were their with the kids one of which is a big Villa fan goes now and again to Villa Park but because it was a quid for his child he came along to his local team. Getting these kids in and giving them the live football experience is imperative to the long term sustainability of the club otherwise this whole generation will be lost completely to SKY forever.
I think Power is going to have to offer a few incentives in the run up to Christmas like ST holders bring a friend for a tenner and another couple of kid a quid deals.

Regarding deals/promotions- you are restricted to how many of these you can do in a season- I think this is currently set at 4

I believe that restriction is where you do not offer the same deal to away fans, surely kid a quid would be offered to both sets of fans meaning it could run anytime.

I think this is right. It's why we had to pay full whack when we went to Scunny on the last game of the season a couple of years ago, while their fans got in for next to nothing.

For me it was the fact my boy moved up to the next ticket price from 25 quid for a season ticket ( in effect) to 100 plus, not a great rise I agree but coming from out of town ( 110 mile round trip) it makes all the difference.
 The walk up price for kids is just to expensive so we have only been to the quid a kid game, but would go to more of them.

And that is the crux of the matter dads want to take the kids to the game but are not willing to pay £12 for them but the result is the club also lose the £25 for the adult as well, if they make it a £1 for under 16 then the crowds will be bigger.

Crowds would be bigger but the income would remain about the same - which misses Power's point of needing more paying customers

You missed the point in my previous point , dads are not willing to pay £12 for the kids and hence dont go themselves so we lose an Adult entrance fee how is that going to keep the income the same ?

Hell, make it a fiver, that'd be fine - rounds the total cost for dad and kid up to £30. If you went and could get in for £20 and bring your kid for a tenner most people'd be happy with that.

Do dads really not go themselves if they feel they don't want to pay for their son/daughter?

I wouldn't, can hardly say sorry son, cant afford to go, then piss off on my own.

yes

We do not even get those gates last time we were in the championship

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29915117

A drop from c.8,100 to 7,000 is more than a blip? Have we really been averaging 8k+ for the last few years?

9,500 to 10,500 is more realistic IMO with a few sell outs of 14,500 for the big fish games.

I think people are forgetting how much averages over the season are affected by a handful of big games. After City our average will be between 7300 and 7800 and everybody will be wondering what we were moaning about ;)

Admittedly there are very few teams who will bring more than 500 this season, but chuck in a few bigger crowds towards the end of the season if we're still challenging and the average will be 7500-8000 no problem.

You're right.

An extra 4000 for the wurzel game spread over our first 8 home games will give us an average of exactly 7500.

Those shaggers have got yet another thread about us - honestly, they're more obsessed than the original scum

Don't forget our medway derby  :)

'3 wheels on my wagon'

Have you got Lee Powers email address - drop him a line and reassure him. I suppose the problem with the above is one of cash flow, the end of season attendances may help push the average up but won't help to pay the milk bill this month.

As far as I'm aware don't they count season tickets in the attendance figure whether they attend or not? If that's the case how do we know that the actual number attending isn't the same as in previous years? If season tickets are down 1200 on last year along with our average,  then it suggests walk ups are the same.

This season has been a bit strange in how the fixtures have fallen as well which may affect the non season ticket holders. Both our recent Tuesday games have clashed with Champions League fixtures on TV and as we all know the local Liverpool/Arsenal/Chelsea/Man. City fans would rather sit at home than support their local side.

I still do not understand how the Football League can see fit to schedule games when they well know that the Champions League is being played at the same time, but then again those at the top are so far removed from paying spectators that they do not give a toss!

Yep, we are 8th behind Sheff Utd, Bradford, Shitty, Preston, Coverntry, Barnsley & the Franchise.

Last Season we were 8th behind much the same teams with Wolves & Rotherham replacing Coventry & Barnsley

All of which have tradionally had bigger crowds anyway bar the franchise. So I'd say in that respect we do quite well.

It was the summer that killed the crowds. People are fed up of all the off the field crap and it was a case of "same old Swindon". Also after last season a lot of people said they were bored at the football and wouldn't renew their ST. I spoke to a few with this view. We have been a lot better than last season though but the ploblem then is that the next excuse will always be the prices. I bet we wouldn't get many more if the price was reduced by a fiver. Too many people expect something for nothing these days although I do appreciate some simply can't afford it.

It's practically not possible. With all the League Cup/FA Cup/JPT games to fit in, plus all the rearranged postponed games, like last night, which was a rearranged game which the clubs decided. UEFA already hold back millions from the British clubs because they don't want any senior football matches to be played the same time the CL are on...and affect their viewing figures for their sponsors.

I'd love to see a 'pay what you can afford' experiment for one match, just to see whether a fan base is really out there during these times of financial hardship.

The fan base is certainly out there, but momentum takes time to build.  That’s why I’m fairly confident that, so long as our early season good form doesn’t evaporate like it did last year, crowds will start to build again during the second half of the season.

Have to remember that, as a club, we’ve had 15 years outside the top two divisions and not a great deal to shout about in all of that time - a couple of promotions from Division 4 and a some cup upsets under a lunatic Italian being the highlights.  Most other clubs have had a shot in the arm during that time: a new ground, a spell in the upper divisions.  Yeovil, Blackpool, Wigan, Reading, Brentford, Bournemouth…just a few of the names that I wouldn’t have given a second thought to in the late 1990s.  But they have all had more to shout about than we have in recent years.

Talk of top flight football, Jan Aage Fjortoft, Hoddle…it’s as distant to our young fans these days as Don Rogers & 1969 was when I started going.  Ancient history.  Deliver a little success, do something substantial with the ground (which has to be one of the least changed stadia anywhere in the country in the last 20 years) - then you’ll see a step change in our supporter base.  All considered, a 7,500 average at the moment is fairly decent at the moment, in my view.

Me and the boys haven't been this season as I have been completely skint.

We will be back in the new year for a couple of games a month.

So that's every game then!

Good man

We're currently 9th on average home attendance with 6,951, which is not that bad considering the 8 above are mostly Northern teams with very strong fanbases, or teams that are spending a shit ton lot more money than we are.

http://www.emfootball.co.uk/attend.html

Interesting to note that clubs like Orient/Yeovil are worse off attendance-wise than we are and probably spending a lot more. Also interesting to see Bournemouth bottom of the average attendance for the Championship on 9,630. Must be leaking money out of every orifice.

As others have said we're not doing too badly, but it could be better, and I think the average will be roundabout 7,200 come end of the season. If you look at our min/max you can see attendance is pretty consistent.

Excuse

Good point, but I am not convinced this would work. Even if someone could afford to pay £50, why would they pay that when most (if not all) people look for a bargain and would pay less, eg £20.

Surely you're missed the point !!!!

I think Power and Co need to return to the days of just getting bums on seats to increase revenue.

Once they've got an increased fan-base, they can then set about increasing the yield per seat.

Football is a habit. Especially when it's quite expensive, and it's relatively easy to get out of the habit and do other things.

They've ridden the higher crowds that came off the back of The Black / Wray era, the football dipped when we has a sell off under Jed, and the club is inevitably now struggling to increase crowds - despite the good football and league position.

The phenomenon in business terms is called "lag". Aside from increased crowds, they won't benefit in real terms for a while, but the building blocks will be there.

Get more people in with offers and decent discounts, then worry about leveraging more money out of them later.

Simples.

Fill the seats and maximise income off of food and drink sales/merchandise.

Fill the seats and maximise income off of food and drink sales/merchandise.

Food and drink sales sold off by Jed

Won't help. As I keep reminding people, we don't have any income from food and drink sales because JedCo forward sold it all for the next decade for a pittance. Right about the time people were saying they couldn't possibly be asset strippers because we didn't have any assets to sell....

One thing Power could profitably do, although I suspect he's looked at this already, is have the legal people go over that contract with a fine tooth-comb and see if it can be declared invalid/fraudulent/whatever

At what stage do more bums on seats mean more stewards, more police and more overheads - potentially becomes a vicious circle when trying to up gates by cheap tickets?

Don't get me wrong, we *should* be trying to get more bums on seats, definitely, in the medium-long term we need to increase our fanbase, BUT it's not a short-term fix thanks in large part to Jed's shenannigans AND tbh I think our gates are pretty decent. Best part of 7000 for a rearranged 3rd tier midweek fixture with Champions League on TV? Plenty of teams at our level look at us with envy. The fact that some are spending beyond what those gates could sustain is an indication of how football continually thinks it can exist on the never-never which is why so many clubs are in the shit and vulnerable to chancers like Jed. And that includes us - we were spending way beyond that under Wray and Co with their Shit or Bust "strategy".

I know a few of us have put the boot into 'Muff, but on crowds of 10,000 and players on (allegedly) highish salaries, how and when does the shit the fan for them - even taking into account the Russkie.

Not to mention what they've spent on transfer fees in the last few years.

They are playing some bloody good stuff, and even taking away the heavy backing he's had, Eddie Howe has a done an amazing job there. They look like they will be a good bet to go up to the Premier League, and if they do that I imagine the Russian will make a lot of his money back. It's then how heavily he wants to invest in them staying in the Premier League because there's no way they can sustain it without more heavy investment.

What exactly were the terms of the deal?

I've read people on here claiming we sold of all rights to food and drink sales for a pittance but have never seen an explanation of the deal. Plus the articles I've read elsewhere suggest the terms were somewhat different than claimed.

Power really needs to follow Everton's marketing methods to get people through the door!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE3wOymGeKE

http://www.swindontownfc.co.uk/news/article/lindleycateringdeal-860259.aspx

Good ol' Steve Murrall.

Nowhere in that article does it suggest that the club sold all catering rights for a fixed sum, let alone a pittance.

If anything it suggests the opposite, it reads that its an agreement for Linley to provide, manage and develop the catering facilities with the club sharing in any additional revenues that it generates.

Yeah. Although I'd suggest if you believe what JedCo say about the way they leached money out of the club, I've got a fleet of second-hand motors you might be interested in.

EDIT: Adver story at the time says the deal was "worth" £4m to Town, on the basis that we'd get £200k pa from Lindley and (allegedly) save £200k each year for 10 years. The sources for those figures, of course, being JedCo:

http://www.thisisswindontownfc.co.uk/news/headlines/10476467.UPDATED__Town_agree_new_catering_deal/?ref=rss

and repeated in this pack of wholly credible business visionaryness

http://www.thisisswindontownfc.co.uk/news/headlines/10536421.SWINDON_TOWN__Club_present_their_vision_to_businesses_and_sponsors/?ref=rss

Which is also where the same business visionaries reckoned we'd clear £1.8m from their amazing summer concert spectaculars. So I don't think it's unreasonable to take their £200k pa with a pretty massive pinch of (catered) salt. So, yeah, flogged off for a pittance but, I'd wager, with a hefty chunk of the 10 years front-loaded to the first year, nay month, of the contract.

Evidently, and I must admit I didn't realise this, if the money given to a club is exactly that, ie given, and not linked to any loan repayment or asset that can be claimed back if the 'gift' isn't repaid, it's all OK and above board. That came from an FA blazer I spoke to at a non-league game I was at recently when 'Muff, how come?, came up in conversation about Fair Play.

So as long as the Russian is happy to give, so be it, it seems. You also have to get in your head the wealth of some people. Mike Ashley sold 4% of his shares in Sports Direct earlier this year, pulled in £218m as a result and still has another 60% to sell if ever he's short of a bob or 2. So when he gives £2m to shore up Rangers, which makes the sports headlines, it hardly matters to him it's so insignificant.

Ashley has loaned them the £2m, on a relatively short term as well.  He's no mug, he's dripped them cash and in return he now has influence at board level without needing to buy sufficient shares  and also has the rights to the kit sales sewn up with the SD brand.  Newcastle was riskier but again there was a lot to be gained in the long run from his huge investment.  Not least because of the sheer volume of shirt sales you get up there, much more as a % of the local population than any other team in the UK I believe.  The clubs don't need to make money, they are vehicles for his bigger business.

There is a limit to the money you can gift to a club, in the Premier League at least, not so sure about the Football League. There are always ways round it though, such as the Man City owner getting his brother to sign a massive sponsorship deal.

As regards Ashley, he's no fool - he didn't get to where he is today by saying it's only £2m, who gives a fuck.

I'm quite sure the Russian loans it.... with interest.

He certainly loaned the initial tranche at 6-7% interest according to reports at the time. Maybe subsequent investments have been reported to the FA as being a gift, or maybe the football authorities haven't got a bloody clue what's going on but are happy to be fobbed off with any old made up guff so they don't have to ask any awkward questions or even, gasp, actually do something.

I did notice that the FL have changed their FFP rules last week meaning clubs can lose £39m over a 3 year period, a total that is similar to the PL clubs, which means the likes of Muff, who were breaking the old rules, can just carry on spending.

Quite correct about how the catering deal is reported to have been structured. £2m for a 10 year contract though I doubt someone would want to pay all of that up front to such a volatile business STFC. So £200k a year for that + a £200k cost saving. I'm pretty sure it implied that we didn't make a profit from the catering side before.

The concerts were a 'conservative £900k' per annum with £750k in the first year (£1.8m if all concerts sold out).

For this and more of the plans which never came to fruition, read the comments here:

http://thetownend.com/index.php?topic=51965.0

So can someone tell me exactly what was wrong with the deal they signed?

£200k guaranteed income and £200k cost savings per year, so £400k a year better off. There are also a number of references to the club sharing any additional revenues that are generated.

I don't believe the fixed price sale of catering rights argument, it doesn't make any sense for either party.

Lindley is part of a pretty big corporation and I'm not convinced they'd get get involved in anything dodgy.

Big corporation like, RBOS, the Co-Op etc etc. Not saying you are wrong, but just because someone is big, doesn't mean they cant be shady. Normally quite the opposite Is the more usual outcome in this screwed up world.

The point was that increasing the gate wouldn't have the same knock on effect in food and drinks sales. If we double the gate we don't double the income from catering do we? Likewise if gates drop then I assume we don't lose money.

Then look at the thread about the business plan. How many of those numbers have actually been accurate? The other point which was alluded to was that we can probably take the quoted figures with a pinch of salt for that reason.

I think the worst thing may be that it could limit the playing budget because effectively we've cut down our turnover.

£200k saving + £200k income is NOT £400k better off.

You have to factor in the income that was previously going to the club from this activity.

It is possible that the club is better off but to be £400K better off the previous income from this activity would need to have been 0.

I havent noticed any free catering or hospitality at the CG before!

The thing is with Jed I don't actually think he knows what the truth is and what isn't he seems to suffer a bad case of split personality disorder. On Friday I messaged him on Facebook basically telling him just to fuck off and leave the club alone, I got 2 responses. First he posted on my wall where everyone can see it saying "we'll have to catch up for a cuppa sometime". That was then followed by a private message that started "fucking prick..." and included a load of threats.
It seems he tries to be the friendly guy in public but get him one on one and he's a rather obnoxious character or to use his words a "thug moron".

On that basis I think it's fair to take any figures quoted by him with a substantial amount of salt!

It was certainly implied this was worth £400k boost to profits.

People in glass houses and all that...

Jed feels he has a career beckoning in politics!! Sounds to me that he will be an ideal candidate for Cameron's government - all spin, bluster and not a nice guy to boot!!

I was fully expecting the abuse back bit just pointing out that what he says in public is very different to what is says in private which makes anything he's dished out in the press pretty hard to trust.

Thug moron

I did like his special mention of you.... Good work!

Aye he dmd me on twitter when it kicked off with Power saying he was scared for his safety etc, when we saw him the day after in person he said he was a top bloke! Herthab was there also, we couldnt believe it :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Nothing is free at the CG, doesn't mean the club makes a profit though does it.

Theakston, would it be unreasonable for the private messages, or say.... A random collection of words that may or may not have emanated from 'Gerard call me Jed McCrory McCoy', to appear on here? Just for shits and giggles, and to further discredit the least credible window salesman in the Midlands.

Its hard to see how you can fail to make some sort of profit selling mediocre coffe at £2 a go, but you're right it's possible the club wasnt making much from this activity after costs.

However, as I recall, the deal was announced as £200K per year income plus the saving on costs so its the previous income (not profit) that has to be compared.

I see the "shit rumours" have started on the Facebook STFC Group.


And that from a Swindon fan.

I personally can't see that happening even if we did need to sell 3 players and certainly not just before a big cup game.

After the game would believe it

Welcome to the internet. It's a fucking wazzock magnet.

Yeah especially after a loss in a large money making competition.

I don't think he'd do it even after the game. He may have decided that he needs to sell, but why needlessly demotivate his players when we are sat 3rd in the league?

What a steaming bunch of bollocks.

After the game his credibility of finding three buyers would be stretched.

Has otanswell deleted his posts or did the mods do it?

Stance on Jed regardless, always amusing to see someone get their knickers in a twist when they give it out and someone gives a bit back (faceless internet abuse, that is)

Nothing in the mod log so he must have done it.

Yeh he deleted them, i told him to 8)

Lee Power has flown to OZ to discuss a major investment in STFC. From radio swindon.

Oooh.

Luongo mum buying the club 8)

Skippy the bush kangaroo contributing to the catering?

From 2015, Swindon Town will be known as Castlemaine XXXX Town.

Hilarious asides apart, I take it the bit about Power flying to Oz to discuss investment is true??

Yes, or at least BBC wilts think it is. They tweeted it earlier too.

Very interesting.  He'll be going there off the back of two 5 figure home attendances in November (albeit one assisted by a free tickets initiative).  So I don't he'll have too hard a job demonstrating potential.

Very true. He's probably going to say stuff along the lines of "We have a great chance go up into the second tier of English football, but YOU *points* can make it a guarantee." *sparkly teeth*

This is good news to wake up to. Get a bit of extra money into the club to help us through January.

Anyway, Power has shown examples of how good of a businessman he is. I have complete faith he'll get a good deal.

I'm a cynical bugger, I'm both exited and a bit nervous too.

Who doesn't want extra money!

But are we desperate for it, what are they getting in return...

Long term supporting of stfc means my brain can't cope with normal potential good news, I'm always looking for the catch!

On another note: £25m a year budget!

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/business/business-news/formal-offer-birmingham-city-lodged-8215455

Yeah, I understand that! I'm a relatively new fan compared to a lot of the heads on here. But Power has shown a lot of ability in getting good deals and has generally always said that 'the football club is the priority'. So he won't put the club itself at risk which is a positive.

Oooh, some potentially exciting news.

I guess having an Australian International here creates some interest and buzz 'down under'

It's great to see Lee Power now getting a lot of credit - whether this investment comes off or not - it was only a few months ago when he was portrayed as the big bad bogeyman by several posters on here!

Maybe he's talking to Murdoch.

Very true.

I, like Batch and others, am quite bouyed by this news but do wonder what they will want from the club in return, there is a lot of money down under and its a good market to tap into, maybe one of the owners of a club has some spare funds to put in and tie in a deal as an affiliate club with both clubs benefiting from exchange of talent etc.

I know...slightly wishful thinking but I always keep my fingers crossed for extra funding at our club to improve the playing staff/ground etc but without the violent excesses of the mad Italian, which Power would never go for anyway.

And we like you too, JJ  :)

Oops missed a comma but yeah its all good :) changed :D

Or, to be more accurate, he says he won't. I don't think he will either, but past history at this club shows there's a risk in taking what people say they'll do as gospel about what they actually do.

Don't drop your guard. Let's wait to hear more about this new investment.

Yes, but you can get a variety of effective creams for that if it becomes a problem

+1. Pleased and if it comes off positively for the club then Power deserves all the credit in the world, but I'll wait and see how it pans out before getting the garlands out, thanks

Sounds exciting, but I remain sceptical really. Best way to be when it comes to STFC!

Good point. But so far Power hasn't done anything like that. All the bad stuff that's come about while he's been here was the doing of Jed.

Guarded caution always the best approach with STFC matters.

I really like and admire what Power has done so far at the club, without this investment, he's taken us further than anyone imagined, so what he could do with a bit of cash behind him is potentially very exciting indeed.

But, initially, he thought Jed was a man to be trusted, so his judgement with people isn't always spot on.

He's battling a chequered history.

Brady seemed good until it became apparent donnegan and blatchley were likely spending the creditors money on champagne and helicopter rides.

Sir seaton seemed like the ideal backer until it became apparent that fat controller was taking the piss.

Jed seemed good until it became apparent he was full of shit and a blagger.

Even the best intentioned ownership of Fitton and co ended in tears and black stitched us up  with his exit strategy.

 It's stuff like that that makes the old farts like me nervous. Power has seemed to be a brilliant breath of fresh air that has turned the club into a sustainable competitive entity. But...

You honestly thought Jed was anything but a bullshitter on a big day out?

To be fair, that was immediately apparent.

Re. Jed and Power.. I really don't see it as a case of Power trusted him. I see it more as Power saw an opportunity to take over a club and played Jed for the idiot he is.

Very good point...

Welcome to... the Quantas Ground!

He seemed better than nothing after black pulled the plug!

I'd say doubts started to creep in fairly quickly over trying to keep PDC, flogging Ritchie and the calibre of the rest of the board.

so yeah, it took me a few months to be sure I'd say.

Not got the same feeling over power. But not seen any approved accounts/results of his financial audit yet have we?!

_---------

Oh man this threads going the wrong way. We should be cautiously optimistic over new investment. Not raking over the past just in case it happens again. My bad.

Judy?

The difference with all of these and Lee Power is that LP has actually played, lived and breathed the game and understands the importance of the football fan. These other guys are only in it for the money.

Perhaps LP is only in it for the money as well, but the fact he comes from a footballing background, you would hope he is in it for the right reasons.

Niall Quinn at Sunderland is another who comes across as a good ex-footballer going into the business side of a club.

You've got a point. This counts for a lot. He clearly has the club & fans at the heart of his motives. When he says "I'm a chairman, but I see it as I'm just here for the time-being. The club will be here forever and so will the fans." or something along those lines ;)

I hope that's true, but you only have to read The Secret Footballer, to realise the contempt many ex players have for the fans.

I don't think that's the case in this instance, but it doesn't automatically follow 'played game.. have fans interests at heart'.

Again, you're putting a lot of faith in what he says. Jed talked a good line too, and that sucked a lot of people in, but it was all bullshit. So did Bob Holt for that matter. And many bullshitters before them. Difference with Power is that, so far as we know at least, he has been able to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Stop listening to what they say so much, look at what they do.

What does any investor get out of being involved with a football club?

We are hardly a big enough name, marketing wise, for there to be any benefit to a Down Under business.

My guess would be some sort of tie in with an Aussie football club whose present owner has a few quid.

Yeah, but who really cares what Dave Kitson thinks about football anyway?

No, I completely agree PWP and of course we always have to be cautious when it comes to football ownership. Lee Power has no connection at all with Swindon, but I think he is a big football fan and would hope that he is in the  'played game.. have fans interests at heart' category.

With anything, time will tell.

Everything he's done so far backs up what he's saying, so I'm happy having faith for now.

After 24 years (you only need about 2 years worth) of actively supporting Swindon, it's hard to get excited about such sentences.

My guess...

(http://questgarden.com/107/74/9/120711034544/images/nedkelly1.jpg)

We have 2 links down under 1 is the obvious with Massimo breaking into the Aussie squad and them wanting to mould a team around him, and the other is a certain Dave Mitchell who has managed out there, although he is not manager of a team at the moment

Spot on.

He played for Pox and the Biscuitmen - he would obviously hold the clubs he played for in contempt

Doesn't mean Power would do at all!

Danny Invincibile is coming back.

Whilst addition investment, if there aren't any catches, would be just lovely I really like the financial model Power has adopted and hope it one we stick to for years to come.

Then again I trust Power 100% to do what's best.

I might be developing a man crush here

A part of me really likes the big spending philosophies. Of course it's risky but it's also exciting and usually lots of fun.

The thing is though that Mr. Power seems to be bringing us the excitement and fun without the risk associated with big spending philosophies*

*(Standard disclaimers apply)

I'd take this all with a pinch of salt. For all we know, it could have been a throwaway line from Power.

Why invest money in a football club? (1) Because you either expect a return on your investment or think there is a good chance of securing a return, (2) because you want to own it and enjoy running the club - (see Lansdown, Madjeski et al) or (3) because you've so much money that it's a drop in the ocean (Abrahmovic) or (4) a money laundering exercise!(Abrahmovic) - or a combination of any of the above.

I suspect Power falls between 1 and 2. Better than shysters of years gone by that have fallen v much in '1', without putting money in. Black, Arbib, Fitton and Wray, I suspect, were a combination of 1, 2 and 3.

An Aussie investor? I can't see the motivation.

And after all that, it's probably worth a mention that Ian Crook, Norwich stalwart of the late 80s and early 90s, and at Carrow Rd for the duration of Power's time there - has been in Australia for years, and is currently assistant manager at Western Sydney Wanderers - and was manager at Sydney FC at the same time the forward we had on trial was there. Maybe a contact, but I would doubt he'd personally have money to get excited about.

I reckon he's tupping that rich Mining bird who's a Susan Boyle look-alike to encourage her to invest half a billion quid in the club. Taking one for the team Lee, respect.

(https://s.yimg.com/fv/xp/wan/20120628/01/4196347756.jpg)

Seems like Cooper doesn't think Power is after flogging off any players in January.

Be a Brucie Bonus, that

Why do people assume the potential investor is actually Australian? Just because they are meeting there doesnt mean its an Aussie based investor. Whoever it is Power must be keen to fly to the other side of the world for talks.

Might just be sponsorship anyway and not a major investment

Maybe a groundshare?