Thetownend.com

The Supporters' Trust has issued a statement today calling on all involved in the current court case to resolve it speedily for the good of the club.  The statement applauds the progress made by the coaching staff and the players in a difficult context, but also presses its claim to be concerned about the workings of the club as a whole, and for the recognition that the supporters are the lifeblood of the club, and to alienate them is to destroy the very thing they are fighting over.

The full statement can be found on the Trust website (www.truststfc.com/trust-calls-for-boardroom-resolution)

One of the many great things about the trust, they do things properly.

Statements on a Friday.

Everyone should join for this nod to tradition alone.

truststfc.com/join

Ha that is a typo but really should be their tagline:

'The Trust: They do things, probably'

Whoops, modified..

Seeing as it's Friday I think we should draft a TEF statement on the Court Case.

Yes, but everyone only gets one line each, and has to follow the previous one.
That should make it suitably surreal.

You cannot beat a Friday statement !!

It would have to start with something like:- We the tef would like to state that given the facts that have been given to us by Dexter80 ( so the truth, the whole truth & nothing but the truth according to Jed )

It's a very good statement but a little long. Surely "Oi, Jed, do one!" would have sufficed? :)

We welcome recent alleged developments in the Luton hospitality scene and believe a golden age for Bedfordshire based gastronomes is just around the corner

Good statement but had to laugh at the part which said it is damaging to our reputation nationally, like anyone outside of the town knows that this is going on, or would even care. It's tedious to fans of the club let alone others.

What these little fellas?

(http://www.bluegrassfoodtrucks.org/Content/Images/uploaded/Gastro%20gnome%20logo%20FINAL%20(2).jpg)

Things are surely looking up!

I'd argue within football circles it's damaging nationally, with players or indeed other clubs be wary of doing business with us while it's all going on.

I like it....could it be a bit more red however?  I feel a new TEF logo coming on. Norman Wisdom's got to be in it somewhere.

Out with the Legend's Lounge in with Grimsdale's... an Enver Hoxha themed gastro pub in the CG.

I find myself agreeing with Chang. Any damage being done to our reputation will be approximately zero.

Not much of a statement but yes thats pretty much straight to the point.

It is also the opinion of probably 99% of all Town fans too about the situation.

Exactly, it's not going to be helping Cooper/Power persuade any targets they may have their eyes on that this is a club set to kick on next season, is it?

fuck your Hoxha - I want the Arkells renamed the King Zog stand (we could get King Leka II to open it)

Especially as our current model relies on Prem clubs thinking we are a decent place to blood their hot prospects.

Once this is all done with then everything will carry on as though nothing had happened. Depending on who is in charge, of course, but that's another matter.

Things may well be held up before things get sorted but that's more of processes being stalled than damaged reputation.

I suspect that the majority outside the club are not even aware of what's going on.

The majority of ordinary fans yes. But PWP's point was re those within football (i.e. players, agents, other clubs) who will be well aware that Swindon are firmly back in the basketcase envelope again. And that may be temporary, but a lot of harm can be done by even temporary damage to your reputation. Just ask any good libel lawyer. (Actually don't as it will cost you a few grand to even ask them that)

Nobody should be caring too much about niceties like reputation. This is a football club, for chrissakes, how many of those are infested with dodgy geezers? What should really concern us is how we're going to establish a retained list and, depending how long this drags on, how we're going to attract and hold onto players over the summer.

edit: take PD's point, but the damage to our reputation really depends on how long this drags on, and how much it affects the practical issues above.

Nope, just can't see it Paul.

For as long as I can remember their have been various kerfuffles going on at boardroom level. It's not prevented other clubs and agents etc from doing business with us in the past so why should it now? Power took over after a turbulent period but did it stop him from wheeling and dealing?

Power is unlikely to put money into the club until he knows he can keep it. This will impact business

Cooper has himself said that it's affecting contract talks.

That's nothing to do with reputation though!

It is, if the club is reputed to be in a mess and have no money it might put people off dealing with us.

We are arguing over tiny wording in what I thought was a very good statement, seems like some people just like to have a pop where the Trust are concerned.

I (and at least one other) happen to disagree with something that was said. It doesn't necessarily mean we are having a pop, does it?

That wasn't a pop; this is. It's a fucking pointless statement from a toothless bunch of nobodies. Come at me.

And herein lies the problem.

Fair enough, just felt like we were arguing a minor point in quite a major issue over and over.

are you buying dinner first?

Yeah i'll buy everyone a Trust Pizza. It's like a normal pizza only the bread is stale and there's no topping.

People have dealt with us through worse times than this. This is a dispute about who owns the club. Whoever wins will still see the club rolling along as it was for a while.
Fans should be more worried about the long term and switching from shit board to shit board continually.

Yeah, what losers giving up their time to try and help future of the club, if only they did something useful like ban people on an internet forum

I can write a pointless statement too, but what's the point?

jayo's just reverting back to his low-rent DMR wind-up-troll persona. Not worth a bite.

I assure you, I'm being 100% serious. What is the point in that statement, and furthermore, what is the point in the trust? They have no power, no money, and no clue.

Presumably you feel the same about Pompeys supporters trust, and Swanseas, etc etc.

Have a read here if you seriously want to know, or just keep being a dickhead on the internet, up to you

http://www.truststfc.com/overview/

 :toocool:
We are all guilty of that  :)

But what quality of player will be attracted ? more likely those that do not have other offers - those that have other offers will be advised to sign for a more stable club you would imagine.

Do I remember correctly that we was giving up the training ground at the end of the season and there was talk of sharing with a local school ?
This again will not help attract players, I remember in recent years players being impressed with our training facilities.

I think you're missing the point when I and others are saying that it wont make any difference. Once things are sorted we'll continue to attract the same calibre of player that we always have because in the grand scheme of things it's all quite irrelevant and few if any outside the club would give a flying fuck.

a) And how many will we miss out on in the meantime if this drags on into next season as it could easily do?
b) If "things are sorted" turns out to be potless Jed and his amazing all star bullshitters, it's likely to continue to have an effect on our ability to attract a decent quality of player because we won't be able to pay their wages

Paul, I know that things need to be sorted quickly. That much is obvious. I've also already admitted that how things go once sorted depends on who is in charge. I have already said this myself.

I'm just challenging the whole 'damaged reputation' thing which, as things stand, I think is nonsense. If things drag on then obviously there is potential that things could really go pear shaped. That;s just stating the bleedin' obvious. Other than that I expect that few, if any, people outside of STFC give a shit and once things are sorted, whenever that may be then things will carry on just as normal.

Hmm, I think this is just semantics - you seem to be assuming "damaged reputation" means that the statement is suggesting permanent damage is caused, which I don't think it does. I think it's implying that while the situation continues, it harms our reputation within the game and so impairs our ability to attract players, do deals etc etc. Clearly if it all gets sorted next week, then any harm will be minimal. If it continues into next season, it could torpedo our summer recruitment.

Jayo is clearly being deliberately provocative but he does have a point to some extent.  They are a bit up themselves.

"3.To further the development of the game of football nationally and internationally and the upholding of its rules;" is not really a credible goal for a small group of supporters of a small third division club.

And your comparison to Swansea and Portsmouth doesn't really stand up, they actually own significant proportions of their club

STFC trust: The saviours of world football

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

20% Swansea
100% Pompey

And just look how well Pompey are doing.

There is topping, they just can't tell you what it is as there was an agreement to keep it secret

[/satire]

I think the problem with the Trust (and this is not any fault of the people on the board) is that there is a clear conflict of interest. It’s an independent body which has no relationship with the club and has to forcefully struggle cuddle a way in now and again. At the same time there is obviously the need to do release such statements to underpin the fact that it is an organisation who has the fans’ interests at the core of it.

I think a lot of people recognise the Trust could potentially be a good thing and we’re probably not helping by being apathetic, but when the crunch comes what can the Trust realistically impact? If the Trust was a football team they would be regular mid-table finishers who nobody cares about

(except that one season where we gunned for promotion and bottled it).

We were all members during the bad times, nearly 1000 of us. What did we actually achieve?

Pompey trust own the controlling interest.

But anyway, my point was they had to start somewhere, they didn't own anything when they were founded, they only way they achieved what they had was because the fans bought into the concept.

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Pressure on Diamond Mike and Wills which forced them to sell up, ok not to the Trust, but the club, at least until last January, was a lot better off for it

 ;D

Only money will give the trust any type of clout.
Without it they are just a boil on the boards arse.
I don't want to sound like I'm running them down as I'm not. Get someone with money behind you and buy the club. My pipe dream is that.

Mid table in League , 10k season ticket holders isn't a terrible start, sure they can build on it. Long term they are in a much better position than when they were being traded and loaded with debt by a succession of shysters.

Hardly their Trust's fault. They've only been in charge a little over a year and they've got a decade's worth of damage and outright criminality to undo. But I suspect you know that.

Money yes, members too will help.

What doesn't is smart arses (not you Arriba) doing down people who are trying to help the club they support and, unlike most 'owner's' have no vested interest

Although you do need a better answer than "What are you doing about it then?" when people criticise...

The Trust is not beyond criticism and referring to people that are critical as smart-arses is not going to help you gain members now, is it? It all comes across as a tad arrogant to me.

I only chimed in because you were being a defensive cunt. Keep up the good PR work, I'm sure loads of people will join when you have an attitude like that.

Having criticisms is slightly different to saying outright "it's fucking pointless" though. IMO things need improvement but that doesn't mean they don't have the club's interests at heart and deserve complete derision.

(http://a.gifb.in/042014/1398879453_turtle_fence_climb_fail.gif)

Firstly I'm not on the Trust board, these are my opinions not theirs.

Secondly I was just objecting to Jayos insults, people obviously can criticise, it can only improve it, I just felt the pointless personal slaggings off, when they are fellow fans trying to do what's best for the club ,  was a little unnecessary.
 

PS, show me the part where I called the trust fucking pointless.

Again, I don't think the Trust is above criticism, far from it, hence I was agreeing with Arribas post, secondly I'm not on the Trust board and I'm not posting on behalf of them, I'm merely posting my opinions.

Call it arrogant if you like, to be honest I find your superior attitude on this and other threads pretty arrogant. So we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

You're still bitter about the Peaches row aren't you?

(http://i58.tinypic.com/mx1nbc.gif)

No, just a general observation.

It's a tad hypocritical for you to be able to slate and troll who you want, but when you get a bit back you turn it round and claim it's 'bad PR' for the Trust, it isn't. It's just a bloke posting shit on a message board site, same as you do.

I think the regular posters on this forum should set themselves as an alternative to the trust to demonstrate what measured, intelligent, experienced, business savvy, competent and reasoned fans we do have with sufficient gravitas to be looked at as viable alternatives to our current board of directors, whose up for it? I'll chuck in £50k.

Read the thread again. I made no personal comments at all. I called the statement pointless (it is), and the trust toothless (they are).

How is giving my opinion trolling? Do you even know what trolling is?

It's a general attitude some people seem to have. And you called the statement fucking pointless, which seems unnecessary for something so obviously well intentioned.

Show me where I have been arrogant on this thread.

And what would that have to do with the trust anyway?

Your pizza comment

Using a bad analogy is trolling? OK.

It was hardly constructively adding to a debate about the future of our club was it?

I'm at work so don't have any gifs so just imagine this post contains a relevant one

And this was?

(http://thoughtcatalog.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/tumblr_m7ixzuaqbb1rwbl7wo1_500_large.gif?w=500&h=261)

Will that do?

I ate a cake once that made me very happy!

No not really, I'll give you that. I snapped but mainly in frustration at the utter bullshit you were posting

I'm still waiting for you to show me where I have been arrogant in this thread. I'm interested in what you consider to be arrogant.

Posts about hypocrisy, is a hypocrite. Step away from the PC now mate, you're embarrasing yourself.

Fucking hell, that is rich

Can we stop bickering and get back to important stuff like Albanian gastro gnomes

Last word.

Does Albania even have a football team?

Yes, though Tony Hawk has never played them at Tennis

Unlike Moldova

The Trust is not pointless. Far from it, there are clear objectives that the Trust has always looked to achieve. It definitely serves a purpose.

Calling the Trust toothless is perhaps harsh, but also true. But the only way the Trust will make any progress towards achieving those objectives are through the membership, which relies on people like us actually doing something.

Personally, I've never really seen the point of talking shops.

Nobody in a position of power bothers listening to them - and if they do it's just lip service.

Much like politics in general

Does the Trust have any teeth....that seems to be the nub of the argument. And are the members of the Board a bunch of toothless nobodies?

I don't think anybody on the Board has claimed to be anything other than a passionate supporter of STFC, and everyone is as pissed off with the current situation as anyone on this forum.  But at least one member of the board took the trouble to be present in the High Court on Tuesday and engaged some of those involved in conversation.  At least he took the trouble to get a clear picture of what the issues actually are, got a legal view of the situation, and has briefed others on it.  At least the board took the time to consider whether the views of supporters should be heard within those circles and took action.  If the statement falls on deaf ears, the that in itself is a clear indication of the direction the club is moving in

Does the Trust have any teeth?  No.  And therein lies the rub.  The Trust firmly believes that supporters should be involved in the work of the Board of Directors, and that is one of it's key aims.  It has tried at regular intervals over the past year to speak durectly to those in control.  It has taken a significant initiative to secure an ACV on the County Ground.  It could and would have a much more influential role if some of those on here, who are equally passionate about the club, actually signed up as members rather than sniping from the sidelines

People in power only listen when there is a strong, unified and organised voice talking to them....which is why they will always look at ways to divide any opposition, through use of media propaganda etc.

I welcome the Trust statement, at least it is a vehicle that proper organisation to the latest Board shenanigans could coalesce around, if as seems increasingly likely, the shit very much hits the fan.

As Enver Hoxha would say "The Albanian people will throw themselves in to the flames for their true friends, and the Jed McCrory is such a friend of the Albanian people."

RWB: I am a member of the trust, but as far as I can see if you're not on the board there's one annual meeting and not much if any opportunity to get involved outside of that.

The Trust in principle is a good idea, and this statement and the trip to the court were worthwhile. Where I think the trust falls down is that is spends a lot of time telling people to join and very little doing anything with them once they're in.

That's a fair critique, and one I think you should email the board. Ideas about how to address this, also, I suspect, welcome.

The trust has a role, albeit extremely limited at the moment. They really could have done with the fella who bequeathed his estate to the club to have given it to the trust instead. They would have then had a decent foundation to build on financially. As it stands, despite their obvious loyalties, they're about as useful as a skint fucking chancer with a nightclub owning recruitment consultant and an Albanian drug dealer.

I have been a member. I was a member when the population of the trust was at it's highest and we still achieved very little.

They produced the only redevelopment plans I've ever seen for the CG, secured a viable business partner and heaped pressure on Diamandis etc.

Ok ultimately they sold up to someone else, but for a supporters group, I wouldn't class that as 'very little'

The only problem with that statement is that any fan group can say "we demand a,b and c" and any owner can turn around and say "or what?"

Look at how Newcastle, with their famously "passionate" fans are turning themselves inside out over how to protest about Ashley. There's no solidarity in football anymore. Not among players, clubs or groups of fans. Money talks. Football fans act like and are treated like customers rather than as a community. So we get rapists up front, double glazing morons in the boardrooms and Alan Pardew as the second-longest serving manager in the Premier League.

Who was that then?

Can we have a flag protest about the Trust's lack of clout?

We'll get a couple of flags and a handful of people and do it by the magic roundabout. Talk Talk can bring his camera and document it.

:)

A topic for another thread perhaps. To be convicted of the crime of rape and to have raped someone are two different things. That's why the phrase 'unreported rape' exists. To take the less emotive example of speeding, just because you didn't get a ticket last time you did 80mph, doesn't mean you weren't speeding. But to answer your question, I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, merely illustrating the absence of moral standards in football.

 See, I can be a fucking pedant too.

I don't think it's pedantic to ask you who you were calling a rapist. Unreported rape isn't the same as being found not guilty in a court of law, is it?

Exactly the sort of shit a pedant would write.

Haha. Are you on your menstrual cycle?
or are you always a bloody cunt?

You're ace at arguing, are you on Jed's legal team? They're always on the lookout for pedants who specialise in missing the point.

you win. I haven't got the enthusiasm to argue.

This

Whilst I recognise the continued work and good things those involved in the Trust do, ultimately it seemed like a membership of a political party rather than something I felt could grow and prosper and seriously have a say in running the football club. That's a snipe at everyone involved, including the current and ex-members and including myself (as an ex-member).

When I was a member of the Trust nobody sang from the same hymn sheet. It was divided and convoluted, basically because the Trust couldn't be seen to be the bad guy for the 'regular' fans. Luckily things worked out for the club in the end (at the time anyway!), but the Trust is playing the same acts out as it did before.

In fact the more I think about the more bollocks the whole idea is, or perhaps the execution. If everything really does start going tits up then I hope to hell the people who do have the bollocks will be more organised from the outset. It's an absolute farce that we all fannied about for so long in fear of x, y and z.

The Trust will never get as many as 1,000 members again. It's burned too any bridges it once built. It doesn't listen to constructive criticism it has received, or if it does it ignores it. It's got practically no credibility outside of the few who are members. Which is a shame because it can do excellent things for thinking of the stadium plans and work on obtaining the ACV. But run a football club? Please?

But it's worked at other clubs, so why is Swindon different? Genuine question

Surely Simon has already answered that question in the post you are replying to?

No, he's detailed why he thinks it didn't work in the past, I'm just wondering if, given the same approach has been a success elsewhere, he thinks there are issues unique to Swindon. As I said a genuine question.

That's not an answer as to whether it's unique to Swindon, maybe let Si answer or not if he can't be arsed.

Christ on a bike.

You're a sensitive soul aren't you? I've not even been impolite to you.

Not really, I asked a question of another poster who I thought raised some interesting points. That was it

The Trust probably needs a bit of a relaunch, but the idea is not broken and never will be.  And the way I see it, current events - where the Club is being dicked about by third parties with no long term links to it - surely point to the necessity of a unified body that the fans can get behind to represent their collective interests.

It's the 'unified' bit that's the challenge.  Strong, dedicated leadership from someone who lives & breathes the Club & the Trust is essential.  Someone with charisma.  Someone with a lot of time on their hands...which probably means they're unemployed, retired or simply an all action super-hero.

I agree Ardiles, funnily had exactly the same conversation with someone the other day, a recently retired fan with some relevant skills and the bit between their teeth would be ideal. I don't think the Trust is perfect, far from it, hence suggesting Nemo forwarded his thoughts to them but neither are the alternatives. Rikki Hunt, Diamond Mike, Jed, Danny Donnegan etc etc, nothing but a collection of shysters. Maybe there is no alternative but Christ it's got to be worth a try.

You edited your overly sensitive reply after I called you out on it and then pretended that you never said it to try to make me look like a cunt.

That is fucking snide.

Have a couple of days off.

I edited it because i reconsidered it, and it was written in haste,delete/ modify yours if you want.

I've tried to end this amicably with you, as we are clearly never going to agree, while continuing to discuss things with others like Ardiles.  So for the second time of asking, let's just leave it please.

And it wasn't over sensitive, I was asking someone else a question and you leapt on it for no real reason other than to continue an argument we can both surely agree is pointless now

I'm trying to figure out how to ban you for 2 days for being a snide cunt.

I've just not figured out the buttons yet.

I think that did it?

I think you need to read my post again. Those are my genuine and frank thoughts. I hope that really spells out some of the issues the Trust needs to address (in my opinion). Perhaps it already has, but there is very little positivity coming out of the Trust from a PR perspective. I'm not trying to be controversial and I know the people involved really do have no other agenda than securing the future of the club and having a positive impact. I think rather than take 'snipes' it's probably only fair that I'm as blunt and honest as possible in that case.

Membership just doesn't interest me any more. It's up to the Trust to change my mind not the other way round. Why am I not buying in to it? Why are other fans not buying in to it? Has any serious thought been given to this?

It is generally accepted that 1000 only joined because the club was really in the shit and the membership was a quid. Whilst those things contributed significantly I don't think that was why so many joined. People genuinely felt they could make a difference. But when push came to shove the Trust collectively bottled it. It's an organisation which rarely (properly) listens the members. Sure, we all voted and accepted the results of the show of hands but what action was taken to effect the resolution from the vote? It was nearly always the diet version, the middle of the road plan so not to stray too far to the edge one way or another.It felt like I was a member of a political party a lot of the time.

I'm not apathetic towards issues beyond the football pitch, far from it. I am sad enough to find stuff out behind the scenes using the resources I have available to me. As soon as I find something out (which is backed by factual evidence) I share it. No discussion, no talking it through with others over PMs or in meetings or with former directors of the football club. I just share that sucker straight away. That suits me just fine from a personal sense and that's about as good as the fan involvement has been - pushing for transparency.

But here's possibly the biggest thing for me. Jed supposedly was in the right place at the right time and bought the club for next to nothing. What happened here? The Trusts priority, pretty much the only reason it exists is to own the football club and it couldn't even manage that when it was primed perfectly for it. A short time later Jeremy Wray is cuddling up to everyone at a meeting, giving them the inside scoop but keeping it 'our little secret'. It's bullshit. Words speak louder than actions should be the motto of the Trust.

I've tried to be as blatant and inoffensive as possible and I've not managed it. I'm not trying to piss on the Trust's bonfire or increase the tide 'going against it', but this is seriously the view the majority hold now. I don't think anyone on the 'inside' quite realises what a joke the Trust has become sometimes and even more so how much hypocrisy there is.

So there you go, I hope that spells it out very clearly and I hope nobody takes it too personally, but I know when you put a lot of time and effort into something and someone critiques it you probably will do. I know some of my friends have been involved past and probably present and this post may upset or anger them. I'm not digging at anyone personally, but it needed to be said I feel.

Brilliantly put Si.

I have been on the board of the trust for six months.  I can make no comment on its effectiveness prior to February last year, when I joined it and attended the AGM, but I know that the long-standing members of the Board are committed, and have worked hard over a long period to 'keep the show on the road', to find the best focus, to build membership and to communicate effectively with the club from a fan's perspective.  It is clearly more difficulot to do that when things are going well, as the energy making their voice heard among fans generally is much less. 

But beyond that, there continue to be changes to the membership of the board, and with change inevitably come new ideas, new initiatives and maybe even a bit more energy.  I think Nemo and Simon P ask perfectly legitimate questions which we should address (and where there is criticism, respond).

But the fact remains, the organisation can only be as effective as its membership allows.  Yes, a key aim is to establish a supporter's voice on the Board of Directors, and even to be in a position to bid for ownership should it come to that.  To get anywhere near being in a position to do that it has to have a larger membership.  Until it IS more representative it can only attempt, as openly and honestly as possible, to build its capacity to speak forthrightly on behalf of the wider supporters' network.  I don't think we overestimate what we can achieve, but any 'common voice' must have a better chance of being listened to than a lot of individuals arguing on a forum. 

The statement (which may or may not accurately sum up what a lot of people are thinking) is simply an attempt to do that at a time when there is real concern about how the club is going to move ahead over the summer.  It doesn't attempt to be revolutionary or controversial.  We don't assume that anything much will change as a result...but hope it might.  But in a situation which seems to a lot of fans to be detrimental to what our football club is about, it seems better to say something than to say nothing, to insist that fans have a right to be listened to (and that, as the statement says, to alienate the fans is to risk destroying the very thing they are fighting over), even if we get bruised and bloody heads for knocking them on a brick wall.....

But I can say, as one, relatively new board member, that sensible criticism of and suggestions for the Trust are heard and will be acted on.  There is to be a new membership drive starting now.  At least give us a chance by joining up!

What RWB said.

I reckon that if the Trust was ready to take over ownership of the club, Black would have willingly handed it over and most likely written off all his money. He might have even thrown a few quid extra in as well.

Though the worst bit for me is that the Trust has learnt absolutely nothing from it. Things will turn to shit at the club again sooner or later and another opportunity will present itself, yet as far as I'm aware the Trust has still done fuck all about moving in that direction.

I'm not sure the talk about members and money is that relevant, having an organisation that represents the fans and can speak for them is more important. This forum is probably a lot more relevant to represent the fans than the Trust. If someone could be bothered to ask properly there's a good chance the club would interact more on here.

If the trust was a vocal source of ideas to take the football club forward I'm sure there would be more interest. As it is, they seem to do fuck all apart from hold one meeting a year in a pub, which even then won't always be shared publicly. I can't state enough how utterly amateur and pathetic the cuddly ing up to wray and not releasing what he said appeared to me. That lost most of the credibility in my eyes.

They got complacent when fitton took over, pure and simple, and it needs a big change in mindset (maybe even leadership) to change that.

Weird spat but quality question.

Glass half full "corrected for you" version: But its worked at other clubs, so why is Swindon different so far?

Some very interesting input and debate here, Si Pie and RWB Robin especially but every single post constitutes valuable market research for the Trust, including Bogus Dave's just now. 

God forbid that the TEF ever be united about anything - it's a forum that attracts a glorious (well not always) mixture of opinion and banter - but we are close to being 100% united in our love for STFC and, even if apathetically, reasonably united in favour of the right kind of fan representation in the boardroom.

Snipe or Support or even Snipe and Support?

RWB Robin, why don't you post a link now for some of us to click and debit our way into membership?

(http://www.e-goat.co.uk/forums/customavatars/avatar1237_41.gif)

What I find strange is that some people think that Swindon is somewhat unique in attracting a succession of shysters/conmen.

I would have thought the majority of clubs, especially those historically seen as 'small', have the exact same problem.

The fact that we may not have heard about it, much the same as others know nothing about our present travails, doesn't mean it ain't happening/happened.

Football is the kind of business that is highly attractive to chancers out for making a quick buck

I think the fan base as a whole got complacent during the Fitton era, and frankly who can blame us, after years of Diamandis and the rest of them, I think most were delighted to be able to concentrate on matters on the pitch. As a result membership of the Trust dropped off massively, and it essentially became a skeleton organisation until everything went tits up last year.

It does have now many new members, and, yes, a new chair and board members.They have far from got everything sorted so far, but have made some progress, the ACV was a Trust initiative, and membership is on the up. I'm told that 35 new members were recruited in one day alone this week

truststfc.com/join

I'd agree that this thread, for the most part, contains some valuable research about how things could improve.

I forwarded Nemos point by email to members of the board yesterday, and will pass on the others or suggest that they take a look at this thread and use it to inform how they improve things from now on. If others have thoughts on how things could be done differently or ideas that perhaps they don't want to put on this forum they could email the trust direct [email protected].

Personally I think communications with the members has got to be improved, and I'm hopeful this will be taken on board. The board members are, like the rest of us, passionate Swindon Town fans, they are on a learning curve and I'm cautiously hopeful that when we inevitably have this conversation in 6 months time, there will be a more positive outlook from many about the future.

It's a terrible shame that the Trust wasn't in a position to take the club off Black, as I agree that would have been a unique opportunity. However such was Blacks haste in trying to get rid I think it would have been impossible with such short notice. His haste after all was why we ended up with Jed et al, there were other people interested, but they wouldn't have been able to complete due diligence in time.

Some of you have done fuck all to save guard our club apart from slag the one organisation that trys. Why don't you join and go to meetings and say how bad you think the trust is and attempt to change it rather then hide behind a keyboard.

Well, you clearly haven't read any of the thread.

I have joined. "meetings" appear to be annual and held in a pub in Swindon, and then (one off, but still more than a little annoying) not reported to the wider membership at the request of a guest.

Agreeing with the objectives of the trust =/= Agreeing with every action of the Trust

This is a very good point. My take on it is that the football business is reasonably inelastic when it comes to income from the supporters. Any owner or investor has a captive customer base (i.e. loyal to the football side) that they can fuck over and still get a relatively constant income stream. Unlike most other markets where shafting the customers means that most will disappear and the operation will go bust, it's a great opportunity for shysters as STFC - and a whole load of other clubs - have seen time and time again.

Oh and please just fuck off Jed.

I'm with Nemo. Pal, you have no idea what a lot of the people who post on this board have done for the club in the past, whether through the Trust, individually or otherwise. Don't generalize or be so insulting please.

Accusing people of hiding behind their keyboards doesn't help the Trust's argument with the points/concerns already raised. Fans shouldn't be asked join the Trust because they feel they could do a better job. It should be because there's a united aim.

I don't think it was aimed at everyone who criticisised.

As for the shyster thing, it's sadly probably true at every level these days with the odd noble exception, the higher you go the more you are exposed to greed and short termism, Pompey being the most famous example but there will be others (hi Bournemouth), quite what can be done to reverse this trend across the game I don't know, but well organised fan bodies seem the best answer to me .

Yep. That's really going to garner more sympathy for the trust, good work.

Nice aim with the hammer there Nemo.

The dream scenario for me is a bastard child of the Andrew Black and Trust ownership scenarios. A reasonably wealthy business savvy investor who is also a dedicated Town supporter and sets up a framework where the long term legal holding of the club sits with the supporters.

This has sort of been mentioned several times in this thread and yes, it does come down to money as always.

Yes, I'm not sure if it was this or another thread, but someone said what a shame it was the guy who left the club all that money (did we ever find out what/ if they spent it?) didn't instead gift it to the Trust.

If it were to happen again (I can dream) an organised strong Trust would hopefully be more appealing. The same is true for getting a community minded big business on board, there is far more attraction I suspect, it getting involved with a well organised local project than some shyster.

Of course this involves a lot of improvement on part of the Trust, though perhaps not the most elegantly made point I think Hex is onto something. Everyone on here (with the probable exception of Dexter) cares passionately about this club, so lets care passionately about securing it for the future. If you like the idea of the Trust but don't like what they are or aren't doing tell them, make suggestions, offer to help. It's the only way it can get to where we, or at least the vast majority of us according to the poll on here, want it to be

It won't be quick or easy but it will, I think, be possible in the long term.

I believe the Trust's biggest problem and where it should focus is how it is perceived by the majority of the fan base. Jayo and others definitely have a point, even if strongly made, about "toothless" and "secretive" and so on. That's not a criticism of the ideals of the Trust, or the individuals who put themselves out to run and organise it.

Perception is king I think and people have long memories.

http://www.truststfc.com/join/

Thanks for posting that link PWP

5 minutes and £1.25 debited to a bank card seems a very reasonable investment to give the Trust one member and a stronger representative authority

I don't know if it's just my perception but the Trust and what they do disappeared when Paul Davis stepped down.

Now whether that's just my perception because I've taken less interest or because we were against Diamond Mike it was easier to get fans interested or because there was more going on the Trust were approached more by the media, remember than getting column inches in the Adver and what not or because Mark Devlin left (I think he met with the Trust on a regular basis, keyword being think )

My interested in all things STFC has gone down the shitter the last few years, so I could be well out of touch but couldn't tell you whose on the Trust board these days?
Who can?

Rejoined the Trust today, whether it is a pointless gesture or not I don't know but I currently fear for the club I love. The current courtroom 'drama' highlights just how much we are at the mercy of others and their egos. We need a voice that might get heard.

That's exactly how I feel. Of course I would point out that it is also the people (myself included) who contribute to that situation by having such forthright views but not being part of the Trust.

If there was a very clear plan for how to acquire the club, or a significant shareholding and there was a sustained campaign to create awareness and action it I think many would buy in to it. I would even reconsider joining and investing.

With the real possibility of changes ahead and a subsequent feeling of discontent, the next two or three months could be the most critical time in my opinion.

I think having a fan on the board of directors will not achieve much. Likewise the fans don't need a voice - whether our opinions are valid we will all make our voices heard if we so want it.

Power or McCrory et al or whoever the next owner is will not like it and it will distance the Trust, but someone needs to come out and say "the fans should own at least a quarter of STFC and we want to achieve this. Here's what we're going to do in order to do this and we want you to be a part of it."

A speculative bid/enquiry for shares in Seebeck 87 and Swinton Reds 20 should be happening right now.

Swinton reds share capital is a pound I think, it needn't be that speculative

Oh Dave, you know it doesn't work like that

he he he

As a complete outsider, I understand the Trust has done some good work, but it seems to me that the leadership of it became a vanity project for some years, with people using it as a way to 'shout loudest'. Knowing this place to be a hotbed of Trust-ee's, I fully expect some gip for that (my mate was chairman blah blah blah), but it's simply the way it seemed as an outsider, so it might be something that needs to be addressed - if one person perceives the trust like this, then others may well do.

Is there much interaction between Trust and the Football Club? Do you get together for meetings with the Club staff/board? Is there any kind of protocol for contacting the club so that Fan's concerns can be aired in a professional, official manner in the proper enviroment (i.e. not twitter)? Unless organisations like we've got at the club meet and work together regularly and relatively often, there's little chance of any trust or understanding being formed between them that will help when it comes to the difficult moments where the Trust needs to step in and voice major concerns over the way things are being done. It may even head off a couple of those 'big' moments early on.

Just my two bits.

I've read a fair bit of the last few pages, much of which has been reasoned and constructive, especially some of the criticism of the Trust, some of which has been  yah boo sucks playground stuff. So by and large par for the course - I hope the Trust board do pick out the constructive criticism because it's well put and needs taking on board.

I'd make two specific points on the past and on the future. On the past, I've read a few people say the Trust achieved very little. I'd dispute that (well, I would, wouldn't I?). We were faced with a situation where the club was in very real danger of being destroyed - 2 periods of administration and repeated episodes of "5 minutes from locking the gates" with no sign of learning any lessons from those periods of peril showed that. It was under threat primarily because of the way it was being run by Diamandis and Wills Jr. They, in particular Diamandis, had made it very clear that they would NOT sell up until after they'd secured the pay-off they thought they deserved from a redevelopment that was in their interests not the club's, would have condemned the club to at best the kind of struggles we saw and still see Oxford undergoing under Kassam and in any case always doomed to failure under their leadership. But they refused to accept any of that and pressed on like a bad sea captain heading full steam for the rocks everyone else jumped overboard to avoid.

Under those circumstances, our primary objective was to force the Wills family to jettison Diamandis and to sell to proper owners (NB not anyone - we never had the "Anyone but Diamandis" approach some had). Our secondary objective was that they should sell to the alternative we presented. We failed in that secondary objective, we succeeded in the first. Had we not succeeded in the first, I'm quite convinced we wouldn't have a club now.

Secondly, looking to the future. I don't think achieving a shareholding in Seebeck/Swinton/AN Other Holding Co is worthwhile, as it's too easy to simply swap out the underlying vehicles, leaving the Trust holding worthless paper. Likewise, a simple shareholding in the club itself is not worthwhile without also achieving a change in the Articles of Association to make a certain level of shareholding (e.g. 25%) a "blocking shareholding" that can veto (for example) changes to the share allocation. That's to prevent the kind of dilution that happened with Black when he diluted the shareholding and overnight over £10,000 worth of Trust investment was wiped out to about 100 quid. Or indeed anything much else - as it stands unless you own the majority of the shares, you don't have squat. So unless the Trust can gain a controlling interest in the club (unlikely) or ally itself with another minority shareholder to achieve a majority between them (again unlikely and likely to be unpalatable - hands up who fancies a Jed/Trust "dream team"?), you need to achieve some kind of agreement with the owner to buy a significant %age of shares and to amend the Articles of Association to create a threshold where that gives you some degree of at least veto powers (e.g. on wiping out your shareholding, selling the ground if we ever own it, etc etc). Otherwise, you spend a lot of money on pissing in the wind. I'll wait for Si Pie to correct me on why I'm wrong here :) Oh and I'm aware that the changes of securing such an agreement are extremely remote right now, but I don't see it's worth paying 0000s for 10, 20, 25, 30% of the club/holding co unless you get that kind of agreement with it.

Pretty much accurate Paul, it is a lot more complicated than any of us could possibly write here. You're also right to say it's basically pie in the sky because neither Power/McCrory/Seebeck 87/Swinton 20 Reds/whoever the hell owns the club would ever agree to it.

Actually the 25% shareholding is not quite right it would need to be anything above 25%. But this shareholding would allow special resolutions to be blocked and thus alteration of the Articles of Association (the rules specific to a company about how it is run) would need the Trust's agreement.

There are pretty simple measures that could be taken to ensure protection of the minority stake and also the investment in the club itself but it would require the Articles of Association to be changed almost certainly as you say.

I honestly think a fans representative would only ever be a token gesture, a bit like the AGMs put on in the Fitton days. There could also be a way to make it a stipulation in the Articles of Association of the football club, that a fans' appointed representative should be placed on the Board of directors (of the football club) in a non-executive capacity. This, along with a >25% shareholding would secure a fans rep on a permanent basis.

The above is a very basic back of fag packet idea/plan which I came up with which is merely hypothetical and probably has more holes in it than a lump of emmantal cheese. But what's the point of having strategic aims without having a plan to implement that strategy? That's probably what I'm trying to point out - there should be a plan and there isn't, or if there is it needs more publicity.

I am glad to have been a part of that debate and discussion.  I don't think anyone on the board will do other than welcome the things have been said, even those who have siad that we don't need the Trust or any other forum through which fans can express a view; and it has certainly underlined the problem facing any such organisation - there are almost as many views of the current situation and what can be done about it as there are supporters.  And the problem with fora such as this is that we all repeat things that have been said, heard or otherwise gleaned, and very few of us know or can discern the truth amidst the rumour.  At the very least, the Trust can try to sift and sieve this so we can get as close to the truth as possible, through links with the club and others.

In answer to one of the recent comments, the Chair of the Trust is trying to establish a regular pattern of meetings with club representatives.  Progress has been made.  Other conversations are going on to address particular practical issues facing the club, and I am very happy to ensure that information is posted on here about progress on those things as and when appropriate.  A new membership offer is being made, and already around 100 new members have signed up.  PWP posted the link to the Trust STFC site, but here it is again:  www.truststfc.com/join.  Membership is being offered at £1 (or £1.25 via paypal to cover costs) until the end of the year.  We have heard the criticism of 'secrecy', and lack of opportunity for members to contribute.  Imaginative ideas as to how we might improve that will be welcome, since not many people seem to want to come to meetings.

The aims of the Trust are clearly set out on the website.  But in short, we want to make a positive contribution to the life of our club.  We don't want to come alive only in crisis situations.  But unless we come up with a good solution to the problem of fall-off of membership in 'normal' times, we will always be vulnerable to the criticism of being 'toothless' from one side and an irritant to be ignored from the other.

There are some really helpful ideas in this discussion.  If anyone wants to PM me with others please do, and I absolutely undertake to ensure that the Board looks at what is being said.

Membership renewed.  I'd let it lapse.  Bad me.