Thetownend.com

Was just wondering if STFC will EVER get a new stadium or a major redevelopment?. Getting concerned that we will get left behind, even worse when all our major local rivals all have new stadiums or major re-vamps for example...Reading-New Stadium, Poxford-New Stadium, Bristol Rovers-Getting new stadium, Bristol Shitty-Major redevelopment starting this summer. Swindon Town?? Sweet F.A. as per usual.....discuss folks

It's not really a discussion at the moment, is it? Power is not interested. So it's a way off.

Thought we just had one, Didn't Jed get his building mate round "Bodgit & Scarper Ltd"...

Yep so looks like we'll be left behind and playing in an out dated arena for some time to come then!!

Yes. Power has stated he wants to get us self sufficient. Thats his priority. I think a new stadium is way down the line. This council hates STFC, in fact this council hates Swindon and everyone in it given their less than transparent actions re wifi, croft school etc.
The club is like the town itself. Reading centre was regenerated, slave Trade Central was regenerated but good old Swindon centre is full of pound shops, chavs, drunks and druggies.
I think the two will go hand in hand. Redevelop not only the CG but the cricket ground and athletics stadium and use it as a gateway to a new Swindon.

Well, we are now a club that "knows our place and where we should be" Tosser extraordinair Steve Claridge pretty much said so last night on the FL show on BBC.
TBF he is a bit thick and I think he was trying to be nice about us for once.

You a back handed compliment of sorts?

He's a top cunt...."PDC left and Mark Cooper took over" ....WRONG!!!

Much as I love the ground, you cannot keep putting off the inevitable.  There comes a point - and I think we're pretty much there already - where you'll not be able to delay doing something to the ground any longer.  The Town End has been on its last legs for years, for example.

So I agree completely with the OP.  We are being left behind...and we're starting to stand out as one of the only clubs who have done nothing to their ground in recent years.  Not sustainable really.  It's quite telling that most of us think of the Don Rogers Stand as the 'new' stand - and that's a stand that will be celebrating its 20th birthday this summer.

We'll get there.  Eventually.

The Tories on SBC have a new wheeze, privatising playing fields and leisure facilities etc.  Nominally companies taking on these, sign a long lease, bit like STFC, but they will have the right to apply to planning for change of use after 3 years.

With this in mind, it would be very easy to see SBC being happy to sell off the ground, and a purchaser being able to pay out the covenant and get a change of use.  The Trust got their 6 month priority thing, it may be needed...

We have already been left behind, and will continue to get further and further behind. Its a shame Power is just not interested in this side of the club, hopefully that changes.

Just think of the shitty little clubs we've seen over that time who got 3/4k people in run down old stadiums that are now championship/premiership clubs. Hull, Swansea, Fulham, Reading, Brighton, Huddersfield, Doncaster, Blackpool.

We're not getting left behind, we've been behind for a while.

It all goes hand in hand though. The council don't care about the club, the people of Swindon barely care about the club and even it's own fanbase a few weeks ago were threatening to walk out on it. Why the hell should anyone spend millions re-developing when even Season Ticket holders can hardly be bothered?

It goes it cycles.

Soon certain restrictions, such as terracing, will be relaxed and the club will be able to design and build the new generation of stadia. Suddenly those who couldn't afford flat pack all-seaters will look like pioneers.

A town like Swindon should have a sporting complex it can be proud of but 20 years of dicking about shows that he'll have the current CG for a good while longer.

Welcome to the forum Biggles.

Unfortunately, times change, SBC used to put Rate/Council Tax money into leisure facilities, when it was predominantly Labour controlled, with the odd Tory interlude, but at the time, they could largely see the benefit of a strong municipal tradition in this area.

So we got...the Oasis, the Link, Broome Manor golf course, the Athletics track at the CG ext, Lydiard Park, to add to already existing provision like Coate etc.

Culturally, Wyvern Theatre and the maintainance of the Art's Centre.....and the establishment of a noted collection of modern art.

This was the a kind of deal...you put up with sprawling new developments, but the upside being you can use monies raised to fund new facilities.

The Town even got the Arkells, at the time a very decent facility.

Now though we just get the sprawling developments, with next to no funds for any infrastructure let alone new facilities, just max the profits of multi-nationals...and fuck the citizens.  So SBC's policy of selling off leisure facilities is very much in keeping with the prevailing thinking, that any local democracy mustn't be allowed to stand in the way of profit....

The worry, is that they can get away with this and they know it....the majority in the town, don't give a shit about the place, further than it impinges on their abilities to drive or consume..and when they do like in the campaigns against the Front Garden and Coate developments...it makes no difference. This leads to the general feel of decline,and lack of concern for the environment which can be seen all around, and the football club, is just a reflection of this.

The Tories, have recently claimed the reports that they were looking to flog Lydiard were untrue...we'll see.

We should be proud of our shitty little ground, and don't just blithely assume that it will survive the next 20 or so years, with the likely changes in the political landscape.

I like our shitty little ground. It may not be a perfect, soulless bowl, but it's home to STFC and that's all that matters.

Although some nicer facilities wouldn't go amiss. I'd also like to be able to sit in the DRS and not have to chop my knees off on the chair in front. Or be touching the person sitting next to me.

Think you're wide of the mark there.  For a club that’s been outside of the top two divisions now for nearly 15 years, averaging 8,000+ at home is respectable.  Not sure how anyone would conclude that people don’t care.

I think we should be more grateful than any Pox fan for what has transpired from their new ground :pint:

8,000 is pretty good for league one but about half of that number come from outside the Town. given that the population of Swindon is over 200,000 it's not unreasonable to conclude that the Town itself gives the club pretty poor support on the whole.

Im not so sure. He has a point in my opinion. 8,000 out of a population of nearly 200k is poor. Yes i know the standard isnt always great etc but how many people would even care if we were at the top end of the championship? Probably still only about 12k max.

You may well be correct, but the club will never be self sufficient without being able to generate a lot more revenue from the stadium.

Its a bit of a catch 22 situation though. We dont have the fanbase for a bigger stadium yet if we got one it might help increase the fanbase and interest in the club.

Then you've got Rotherham and Preston, both firmly entrenched in the POs for ages, who got no more fans through the gate at home last Saturday than we did.

We do pretty well, I reckon, for support.

And there is also a fair bit of 'latent' support, or plastics if you prefer, who would hop on board.

Two words: Catchment Area.

We're not competing too much where we are as there are not any other 'major' clubs until you hit Reading to the East, Bristol to the West, Southampton/Bournemouth to the South, and Coventry/Brum to the north. Okay, to the south it's mostly fields and Army Personnel until you hit Amesbury, but you see my point.

As Audrey says, 'latent' support is there, just needs enticing more regularly. A new stadium might help that. It might not. You can never tell.

To be fair from Rovrums point of view you could throw a rock in any direction and hit a football club
Couldnt even hit one with a howitzer from the CG as no one within 30 miles or so of us
Preston dont fair much better as all the clubs close to them in the championship

We are lucky in that dont have another league club on our doorstep

Here lies the problem...the previous regime at times said they were looking into building something into the stadium, that might  generate some dosh, but then we hit a the present recession.

With the economy fucked, just what could be viable in the present stadium. We've had all sorts of suggestions down the years, and even when the Arkells was built, a betting shop and squash court built into them...both failed.

Presently some sort of flats seem to be about the only option...like at Orient.

Kassam is looking to build into his corners and fence end, plus a bit of car park....building flats into the Stratton Bank, facing the extension with maybe some basic boxes facing the pitch you'd have thought could be viable.

I think that is the crux, Reg, although I'm not sure the general economic situation is that significant when it comes to the CG - nothing's happened since the DRS was built and the economic climate has fluctuated both ways since then.

As you say, what circumstances would make redevelopment viable? What would be in it for the owner of the club or SBC? What kind of realistic redevelopment would create a return on monies spent and continue to generate revenue beyond match-day use and for some considerable time to come?

Unfortunately, the current political culture is one of development that is perceived to help kick-start the economy in the short term (ie put money in the pockets of developers, usually with regard to housing and building on green belt), rather than development for the benefit of wider society for the long term (culture, health, well-being, education, redeveloping brownfield sites). It also does not help that the current political culture is one of the state (and local government) taking less responsibility for things it really should (in my opinion) take a lead on.

There just does not seem to be the vision or will in this town to come up with radical, forward-thinking schemes, that might seem a bit risky, but for which future generations might actually thank us for. Whenever brownfield sites are developed the results are usually average at best (Churchward apartments - I think there was a missed opportunity here, this could have been Swindon's Cultural / Heritage Quarter with a resited and purpose-built museum and art gallery to sit alongside big hitters like the National Trust and English Heritage, and STEAM). When greenfield sites are developed, the results are usually worse than average (the housing estates north of Thamesdown Drive, eg Oakhurst, are shocking examples of 21st century housing estates). Could, for example, the GW Hospital scheme have had greater vision - building a medical school/university, research labs, key-worker housing, and possibly also a sports city (football stadium, cricket stadium, training pitches, proper athletics track, cycle routes etc etc)?

Successful towns need to invest in long-term schemes, and hopefully ones that have the quality to last and become the heritage of the future (and there is huge, long-term value in heritage). A football club and its stadium can be part of that.

If there is one thing that irritates me it's the words 'soulless bowl'. Now don't get me wrong I don't want a flat pack stadium like Colchester but if we were ever in a position to have something like Stadium:MK and all its facilities compared to the decaying County Ground surely it's a no brainer?

Absolutely a no brainer.

The decaying County Ground wins every time.

I like grounds with character. Look at the Millwall history website, cold blow lane looks great.

+1

I think we're often a bit harsh on new stadia.

Old stadia do tend to have more character but then they would do, after all they have been well 'lived in'. Throughout a stadium's life various rules and regulations will come and go meaning alterations need to be made. Wear and tear will mean that parts need repairing or fixing and the occasional expansion or downgrade may also be required to maximise revenue or cut costs. Various famous events and individuals will also contribute to the 'soul' of the stadium as time passes. All of these things provide the quirks and foibles that help to give old stadia their character and these quirks and foibles make new constructions appear soulless and bland in comparison.

Usually though the designers of new stadiums do give it their best shot. While it may be all but impossible to achieve a genuine 'lived in' effect, new constructions do often show that their designers have tried to use some creativity and at least made an effort at adding a bit of character.

The same cannot be said about Stadium MK, however. It looks as though it's designers put a box on a bit of paper, drew a line around it said: "That'll do". It's exactly what that disgrace of a 'club' deserve really. Let them fucking have it.

Grounds ok, not too sure about the inmates though!!!

Doncasters is the worst new build I've been to. It is literally a round shed with seats bolted on to it. Zero atmosphere, horrible place.

The Old den was a crap hole of the highest order. Of the newer ones, they are hit and miss the ones I've been to. Leicester and Colchester are poor, whilst Reading and Coventry are good Imo.

Yeah I think Reading is pretty good.  Biggest problem is the location, like most new grounds.  Not been but I've heard that Riverside is the worst.

Completely agree re Doncaster, I went there to watch them in their first championship season against Newcastle.  Big crowd, lot of enthusiasm and excitement but even then the soulless ground had a depressing effect.  God knows what it would have been like the next year when they were getting relegated.

Following on from Flashheart post, there may well be a change in how stadiums are designed. In the US in the past 2 decades there has been a move towards designing and buiding 'retro' ballparks in baseball and I for one would welcome some modern designs using some Archibald Leith design principles.

Sans the restricted views of course.

I was in the Johnny Haynes Stand the other week and it was a nice experience.

I like the idea of the CG development rather then just a new build, I just hope if it ever come to that, we still have seats behind the floodlights in the corner of the townend, thats charachter just there :)

I still say that Loftus Road is my favourite ground.  If we could develop the CG and find a way to fill in the corners (which would mean new stands at either end) I would prefer that.

As stated in the other thread I went to the Amex last weekend and was really impressed. Yes it was all a bit clinical - no pissing in the turnstile or up against a wall - but it was definitely not a soulless bowl.

What?!? The posh fuckers!

This is Brighton, I am sure it was the norm back at the Goldstone ground.

A uniquely intimidating and unsanitized atmosphere both inside and in the surrounds.

Perhaps if the County Ground were allowed to decay a decade or two more, it could achieve a little of the sense of danger about the (old) Den?

http://www.millwall-history.org.uk/_borders/top.ht9.jpg

woops, the intended (old) Den link...

http://www.millwall-history.org.uk/the_den.htm

It is not posh. As soon as you get your cock out for a piss one of the queer fu@ks will go for you.

Moving away would be terrible, redevelopment of the County Ground is the way forward. To be honest I don't think it's that bad, if we became a stable championship club then we would need to improve the ground but if we're going to be in League 1 for the foreseeable future then it's fine for this level.

I used to work with Reg Burr's nephew.  True story, that.

The truth is although the country ground is adequate at the moment the question is how long for? Can't see how much longer Stratton Bank has left in it. What if uncovered stands are made history by the governing bodies like terracing?  I'm in favour of redevelopment too. A new town end and Stratton Bank with all corners filled in would be excellent. Pretty certain the Arkells has a few more years left in her yet. That just leaves the small matter of non match day revenue making.

As has been said on numerous occasions previously the big advantage is the additional off field revenue from both the rental from unused bits of the stand to things like business or public sector as well as the use of the exec suites and boxes for weddings, conferences etc.  If the business was looking at the medium to long term it is the encouragement of these people who do view football as a leisure activity and expect a reasonable level of comfort and toilet facilities that we need.  The kids of the Plastics are the future!!

 

in with the prawn jellied eel sandwich brigade, eh?

Colchester Mk1

Colchester MK2

You decide

Wracked for a few milliseconds by my own indecision, I say the County Ground as is.

Yep

Looks like the ColU fans did from those pictures  ???

Actually, speaking as someone who occasionally comes to Swindon on business, there is a lack of hotel rooms, quite often the whole town is sold out, and it's always pretty pricey.

So a redevelopment of the Town End with the Luxury balcony rooms that become exec boxes on matchdays is sure to be a year round money spinner.

Bit like the Marriott at Twickenham, and I think even Reading has something like that.

The County Ground needs to remain the home of the club, be it in a redeveloped or new stadium.

Too many of the new builds are on edge of/ out of town sites.

Who has walked from the railway station/ town centre at Reading, Wycombe etc to the ground?

I have been part of the marching cordon around groups of fans from town to both grounds. It was a complete ball ache for us and the fans.

Fancy spending beer tokens on a taxi to get to our new home? Fuck that.

Swindon centre is accesible on foot from SN1 and must remain so.

Town Centre might need some attention as well but......

Anyone got any actual costs for a new stadium - say 20,000 capacity.

I've spoken to a couple of Brighton fans about it, the ground itself is great but it's a pisser to get in and out of, and is a bit in the middle of nowhere. When the alternative is an uncovered athletic stadium with shit views, this isn't really much of a trade off, but when you have a historic stadium in the centre of town... I know what I'd rather.

...as was the Goldstone.

Drop the town end and replace with stand that incorporates hotel and conference space to rear.

Thats all we need to do short term, the whole Field of Dreams approach is irrelevant, we just need 365 days revenue stream, it doesn't even need to be at the ground!

Rebuild the bank and stick 2500 seats in, plus a roof. Stick all the away fans in there. Rebuild the TE to the height of the side stands and fill the corners.

True, was talking about their pre Amex predicament though, ours is, thankfully, currently a lot less dire.

build a school as part of the ground

Good shout
Or one of those big NHS clinics/ multiple doctors surgery things.

If Cameron hasn't closed it down in the mean time.

They are very difficult to fund, I have got planning permission for three now and none have been subsequently built as the money disappeared!

Audrey will approve of a new doctors surgery.

I've said this before but develop the Stratton Bank to reasonable standards, then shut the TE for redevelopment and stick everyone in the Stratton if it is happening during the season. make the TE a double tier, stick a few glass boxes at the top of it, and then sort out that middle floor of the DRS that is built in- function rooms or offices and whatnot.

That'd do us nicely as a 'low-scale' redevelopment for a few years. Our side stands are a reasonable standard for League 1/Championship, the primary focus should be our ends, because they're a bit shit.

Colchester 2007 10105 seats £14 million
Rotherham  2011 12000 seats £20 million
Doncaster  2006 15231 seats £20 million approx ( 32 mill for whole complex )

Both Brentford ( 20k seats ) and the gasheads ( 21700 seats ) have permission so be interesting to see what they end up costing

Individual stands

Oldham building 2340 seater side stand. £5 million to include corporate facilities, office accommodation, retail space, a gym and conference facilities.

See the Gas now have the go ahead

The rough guide a few years back, was that a basic stadium construction, approximated to a a mill for 1000 seats.

All these ideas are very grand, but don't get over the basic problem that someone has to fund it.  Power and fair play has stated that's not him....SBC will be more likely looking to sell the CG for a MacDonalds, which doesn't leave many alternatives.

Historically....the TE was paid for by the fans raising the necessary funds.....the Arkells a 70's project when local democracy was much stronger, so SBC could loan money to the club... no longer possible.

The DRS...was a cheap and cheerful construct, because the Shrivenham Road was condemned, and there were plenty of grants sloshing round, so cost the club a minimal sum.

So essentially, until the time that the DRS and Arkells are condemned, nothing will happen.  The TE could go and not be replaceed and we'd still be OK to stage lower league football.

Am I right in the thinking those same grants were also going to pay, or part pay, for a new stand where the Stratton Bank is, to be built at the same time? Only someone objected to it blocking their light and the plan was shelved?

Such a shame as was a unique time where building stand was relatively cheap.

A figure of £1.5m pops into my head, for some reason

Yes the grants were in place....the complaint thing an urban myth. We just couldn't find the 250-300K needed for our contribution.

If it is an urban myth it's being perpetuated by the guy that does the stadium tours.

That's kind of how urban myths work...what is true, is that some folk raised a concern when the planning application was put in, as they're entirely entitled to do. The application then proceded no further because of the fund shortfall, so just stayed in the pending tray....

The one thing this thread has tought me is that everyone on here is a fucking planning expert

Wait. We're supposed to be learning?

I've learnt loads from the TEF...like there's a bloke on telly called Kevin McLoud, what a dirty sanchez is, and that you need to have at least 6 bikes, a wardrobe full of lycra, and a small on-board computer to be considered a cyclist.

And football experts ......

Or that some people have a bit of imagination  ;)

I am a fucking planning expert..... sadly.

The lack of funding would not have affected the councils ability to determine the application,  that makes no sense.

He's kind of right. Objections were raised but the application was passed despite them and permission granted but then the club weren't able to proceed because of lack of funding.

The ground was there before the houses so tell em to do one. Thought the club owned most of the houses behind the bank anyway?

Once upon a time the club owned 1 Shrivenham Road and used it as a hostel...but it was sold off years ago, along with a number of other club houses bought in Walcot West.

One of them has a plaque stating "Don Rogers lodged here"

Did you build it reg?

There was a guy living in the house next door to that one who was the most vehemently opposed - had the pleasure of "talking" to him once, just after the DRS was finished.

A development was and is remains relatively easy tp push through a the only objection with any weight was the impact to view/sunlight as I remember.

These fucking idiots that move near a football ground and complain about sunlight and noise etc don't even know they were born

Didn't new residents of Castle Combe recently try and get the race circuit closed because of the frightful racket it causes?

Loss of view cannot be used to turn an application down...

New Residents can be so fucking snooty and it pisses me right off. One of the local farmers had to spend a shit tonne of money on a brand new slurry tank because the old pit smelt and it bothered the noses of the people who'd moved into the three, very exclusive, housing estates that had sprung up around his farm. Also his cows littered the road with manure and it was 'disgusting'.

I've also had complaints from those same people about our chickens. Not directly, of course, they didn't come over and talk to us about it in a neighbourly fashion, no, they went straight to the fucking county council. Our cockerels crow too early in the morning and too loudly apparently  ::)

To answer the thread title - never, and yes left behind! Would love to see a redevelopment but how many times have we been here before? With the current lot ground redevelopment isn't even on their 'to-do list', so expect at least a few years at the earliest until something serious happens. Shame, as we're missing out on a lot of revenue that could come with the corporate side of things.

But overbearing development, overlooking or loss of residential amenity can...

It's all a bit s106/NPPF/PPG/PPA/LDF/VSC/JCS/SEA/SHLAA/SHMA/unauthorised erections with Mr Horlock.

He knows his stuff though.

It that a polite way of saying that I am a dull bastard....  :D

Just say you're an urban designer.

I used to be for a while... God that was tedious!  I am actually a heritage planner,  not sure whether that's worse or better!

Having overlooked some of the residents back gardens from the last time I stood on Stratton Bank I can't really see much difference having a new stand will make. It's not like they have a quality view at the moment is it? Look at the houses in Bristol that have Ikea right up against their properties. Or the flyover at Portishead with houses underneath!  A modern stand like the DRS would probably be easier on the eye than a crumbling Stratton Bank.

Beards and sandals :).

CgMs?

Paint a big countryside mural on it. Got to be better than looking at the current barbed wire and smelly old bogs.

Or build a transparent stand

Bloody hell its like LinkedIn :-)

Although I did go to a meeting today in jacket and jeans!

CgMs - pah no, we get results!

DPP

At my school, we've had neighbours complain about the noise of students at break and lunchtimes. They moan about the noise and what the kids to be quiet.

The school has been there since the 50's, if not before. If you don't like the noise why buy a house near a school?!

That is not as stupid as it sounds.
A certain club, up the wrong end of the A420 has one.

Similar to the cunt of a next door neighbour complaining about the kids playing in the cul de sac I live in. Not just my one but everyone's though it was always me he had a go at. In the end I told him a few home truths. Fuck off Mike, the kids were here before you and you knew there were kids here. You'd do your self and the neighbour hood a favour if you fucked off. He moved a week ago!

Sits in the DRS stand. Moved seats this season as he struggled up the stairs to the top row, shame he never fell down them. I feel sorry for his mate who sits with him.

Forget a new ground in the foreseeable future,power has not hot the money. The club does not have the fan base or the money,yet. Sustainable promotion to the championship will change that but new owners or additional investors will be needed first.

And neither did Reading or Swansea when they went ahead with theirs.  (In fact, both had smaller fanbases than we do now.)  Ground building was a part of a top down transformation of both clubs that took them to the next level.

There's a real tendency in Swindon to explain away why things can't be done - which goes some way to explaining why the town (as opposed to the Town) has not really moved on since the 1980s, while other places it near it have.  I just wish, for once, someone would pull their finger out and actually do something in Swindon, instead of just talking about doing something.

Or stand for office instead of moaning about it

Look, I agree with your last paragraph.

Your first paragraph is an explanation of what has happened elsewhere, that's now history and envy on our part.

The reality is and it keeps coming back to this. The council own the ground Power owns the stands, which is like turning up at a lesbian orgy with a condom.....

The council have got no money, they never have whether those nasty conservatives are making them work for every penny they get or the profligate labour chaps are throwing more cash at them than they know what to do with and that won't change.

Power has more money than me or you I'll wager but he does not have the unlimited cash that would need to be spent on a new ground or a massive refurb of the current ground. No point ringing up SBC still.

8k per home game, up to 6k season tickets, reducing the bloated playing budget, level of football and a multitude of other reasons why this is not going to happen in the near term.

In short, money is the key either way and at a guess how much do you think a decent refurb or new site with new ground is going to cost?

Sorry to bring a touch of reality to a dream I suggest we all have but that's the way it is.

We'll revisit this in 5 years. I believe it's called ground hog day......

There's a lot of support out there, maybe people feel that things are not going to change with the club, nothing really different has happened in the last 20 years. It has happened for other clubs in that time

I think that's County Ground hog day ...

4D, you've IMHO just rehashed what Ardilles ha said or alluded to. It's not happened yet. We've been in the premier league for one season and a reasonable amount of time in what is the championship. All we have to show for it is the DRS and some cosmetic makeovers.

Groundhog day as I said, 5 years and we'll see where we are.

I see what you're saying fats, we are either a perpetual lower league side who have had a couple of good seasons higher up the leagues, or someone takes a punt on us and does something similar to Swansea,  reading etc. If that doesn't happen we will be in L1 or 2 still.

There was a DPP in Bedford a few years back, but I think they folded.  I assume you're at the Portchester Rd branch?  I'm at BW in soho sq.  PM me your details as I’m often looking for arch/heritage assessments, plus we’re at risk of boring the TEF with more planning acronyms. 

The problem in the present political climate, is that it would be very difficult for any local politician, to help the club even if they were minded to, such has been the gradual erosion of local democracy, by central government.

My grandfather was a Town fan and a local councillor for 34 years...he was an Alderman, a post abolished in the Heathite local government reform of 74, he was awarded an MBE for his services to the people of Swindon. His focus was, primarily as a Union man on jobs and employment, followed by health and welfare, particularly of the disabled, then education.

Football was for him something the fellas did on a Saturday afternoon, the hordes leaving the Works or Pressed Steel and usually cycling off down to the CG.

He loved a good moan....and having lived through some shit probably thought it was what Saturday afternoon was for...

His take was pretty much, you want a new stand, then nowt wrong with the fans fundraising to pay for it....or just recycle one  from somewhere..

Maybe the Trust having got the 6 month thing on the CG in place, could start some fundraising, to say build a new TE.... the mere fact that something is happening however small might have a seeding effect and start to focus minds.

Why can't the council just sign over the land the CG stands on to the club - obviously with a clause stating it had to remain a football ground - and let an individual or whatever finance the refurb or build a new stadium with the wider community in mind

I would imagine the banks would lend against the value of the site.

Because it is illegal and the councillor concerned who did it would be personally liable for the value of the council asset involved.

Well give the club a mega long lease then - 200 years - and allow someone to finance it and make some mullah at the same time.

No different to buying a house with a long lease

You have a plan to breed Muslim babies?

One of my ideas is to build a mosque into one of corners of the CG...maybe then a mullah would put in some moolah.

Ah, thanks Reg.

Now I get it. Should have gone with wonga or spondoolicks

I think we should try and build at Shaw Tip again :)

Hi Mr Diamandis, where have you been for the past few years? :)

They've repeatedly offered to do just that or sell the land outright if someone can come up with a viable (and legal) scheme. It's that latter bit that's so far been lacking.

Fantastic idea! I would love to go through that experience again  :D

Absolutely. The council would love to bump up their asset bank balance if someone made a reasonable market value offer for the land (imagines the sound of an arm being ripped off).

Couldn't decide where to put this, but thought the story was of some interest as issues of Powers intentions appear to be surfacing once again.

I suspect that this is the model that anyone wanting to redevelop the ground would be seeking to follow....

http://www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/sport/football/morecambe-fc/morecambe-fc-chairman-puts-club-up-for-sale-1-7781323

This shows that it can be done, however in Morecambe case however they sold their old ground to Sainsburys and used the cash to purchase and move to a clear site just down the road which has given the development opportunities surrounding the ground which would in turn cross finance the club going forward.

I just don't think that there is the space at the CG to do something similar (ignoring for a minute that the club don't own the ground), and land values are so high around Swindon buying a new site is going to be prohibitively expensive (even in the absence of any capital available from sale of the CG to fund a land purchase). So I really don't understand why anyone trying to make an easy buck from ground redevelopment (or anything else to be honest) would bother buying Swindon who are as it stands a very asset poor proposition?

I'd imagine he'll make money with other developments made along with training facilities. I've no problem with that, would anyone, as long as the a) the training facility is a club asset/cheap to rent compared to FMV b) he's not using club money for other developments (I am not suggesting he is, and he says he's using his own money).

The CG can be redevelopment as a ground or even expanded if the cricket club/athletics track were moved. But asset stripping by doing so - no I can't see it either.

The point in bold interests me (and I think you said before you work in planning, so you'll probably have an answer!)  Why is it that land values in central Swindon are 'very high'?  The town centre is decrepit & dilapidated, having suffered from decades of under-investment.  And the neighbouring Broadgreen area that the ground sits in has seen better days as well.  You don't see developers making much of a visible effort in the area, so what is supporting land prices there?  Is there much of a discount in central Swindon compared with, for example, central Reading (where so much more investment has been made recently)?

I suppose that I'm half hoping that the dire state of Swindon town centre could, ultimately, be the making of Swindon Town - by providing a prospect of an affordable redevelopment at some point in the future.

I've recently wondered where the term "Broadgreen" comes from....because as far as I'm aware it has no historic or geographical meaning.  Guess some SBC planners came up with it, to make it sound better.

I happened to be down Manchester Road late last night, and before anyone asks not for that....I don't pay....however it is economically quite vibrant....plenty of late night shops, eating places and other potential entertainments on offer. A bit like a more upmarket version of the Calais Jungle....

'Broadgreen' was coined only a few years ago.  No idea by whom.  It was named after the Community Centre in Gladstone Street.  How the Community Centre was named is anyone's guess, but mine would be that Broad Street is the next street and there's a small patch of grass next to the centre which, at a stretch, could be described as a green.

The name is a bit contrived, but makes sense in a town in which just about everywhere else has an area name.  Previously, it was a bit of a dead zone near the town centre without its own name, so people had to resort to calling it the 'Manchester Road area' or similar.

So you've never heard of Queenstown? 

As a club - and as a town - we missed the boat when that bloody tory councillor stated he personally would lay in front of the first bulldozer on site after SBC appeared to offer us a piece of land for a new stadium in Shaw.  Would it have ever happened if he hadn't mobilised his army is hard to say . . . . we will never know!!

Nope.

Historic area next to the canal, butting onto Manchester Road. It had it's own school and Working Man's Club...which migrated down to near the CG and happily is still there today, when Horlock's lot got to work and did what the Luftwaffe couldn't.

The Councillor (whose name I now forget) was a self-publicising idiot who seemed to derive a great deal of pleasure from unnecessarily antagonising the club and its supporters.  However, I think he did us a favour in opposing Shaw Tip, which would have been a shocking location for a stadium development.  The only possible way it might have worked is if ££ was magically found for the Thamesdown Drive extension to Great Western Way.  But 10 years on we're still waiting for that.

You mean Nick ""Are we still letting Mongols have sex with each other?" Martin

Don't drag me into this, I have never worked for a Council south of Chorley and thus can take no responsibility for the horror that is modern central Swindon, FWIW my father who was Pinehurst born and bred always hated the middle of modern Swindon!

Not sure if this link will work and I don't know how to post images but Old Maps shows the Queens Town area named on the map of 1886

https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/416500/185500/12/100367

Edit - Sort of works, you will need to click on the various maps down the left hand side of the screen to get the right one!

We really didn't. It was a shit idea in a shit place for a ground - have a look at Colchester's soulless shell for an idea of what we'd have ended up with. The current location is fine, just needs redeveloping.

To be honest it was based upon something of an assumption taking note of the wealth of Swindon and the fact that historically Town centre sites tend to out perform those on the periphery in terms of potential yields, thus upping the value. Interestingly some of my former colleagues from Manchester have been doing some work in Swindon recently and have been generally surprised at what a tip the town centre is considering its down south and next to the M4 with good London links - I did warn them!

What I can be sure of however i buying a patch of land in Morecambe would have been cheaper than buying same in Swindon!

Yes, technically Queenstown stretched out to the edge of what became Manchester Road, Corporation Street border.

You can see Manchester Road just followed the line of an old footpath. The part of Queenstown at the end of Milford Street, Cheltenham St/ Gloucester Street was rather fine....a sad loss.

Interestingly, the Pint and Prostitute in Manchester Road, used to be the Eastcott Hotel, so named because the land had been Eastcott Farm...not particularly close to Eastcott

Some Queenstown views here...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/swindonlocal/sets/72157645563789203/

You get free kebabs, Reg?  :hmmm:

There's no such thing as a free kebab...something EU negotiators could do with remembering.

Most of it still looks the same as it is today.

'ironically' enough I live on Queenstown Road today. I wonder if it got its name because it was the road to Queenstown in Swindon?

I think it refers to the sexual orientation of the people that live there

Here's how we should do the ground redevelopment:

https://twitter.com/Football__Tweet/status/819482275138207744

"Fortress County Ground"!! :)

There must be space for a trebuchet on that tower.

Well, clearly once you've got the basic structure in place, there's plenty of scope for further extension. I'm thinking a hot oil vat above the gate for away fans, as well. And something to dump plague-infected corpses into the middle of the away end.

And a portcullis. Don't forget the portcullis.

What use is a fortress where everyone's looking inwards?

It's the perfect metaphor for post-Brexit Britain. We'll be capturing the Zeitgeist. Although, obviously we won't be allowed to call it that

You're right, it's perfect. The Postfact Arena. The Navel Dome.

The Cunty Ground?*

*I really hope no oppo fans are reading this...

Fuck yeah! Or some towers like Djurgardens fc.

Or just the one tower and we can call it Power Tower.

or Tower of Power.

like this, laughing in the face of drs slow egress:

http://www.siampark.net/index.php/en/siam-park-en/attractions/adrenaline/tower-of-power

The tank full of sharks could be multifunctional as well, they'd come in handy for Power's "evil genius" antics - collapsing bridge over the tank anyone?

sharks, with frickin lasers attached to their heads

I think I went to one of their games once.  Are they the club that plays in the 1912 Olympic Stadium?

Think they did, not sure they still do.

They play at the Tele2 arena now

We can dream.

The Opel Arena in Mainz is a fantastic staium but

1. can we afford £60m construction?
2. could we warrant a 34,000 capacity? could we warrant even a 15,000 capacity now?
3. who would fund it?
4. we don't even own the County Ground & land.
5. we don't have a large enough car park or currently even room for a bigger one.
6. the public transport in Swindon cannot sustain a stadium of that size without extra investment from the council, which with current spending limitation will never happen.

I'm of the mindset that it'll never happen so if the ground is ever rebuilt it'll be a lovely surprise for me.

Have we been left behind? Yes and no.

Just to put a planning hat on for a minute.

5) as a town centre location we could probably argue a very low parking provision;
6) the Council would seek to fund this via a s.106 agreement with the stadium developer provding a large contribution, so could probably be achieved if the developer had deep enough pockets.

Not going to happen in my lifetime though I fear.

I think it would have been a different situation if when we got to the Premier League that we bought the Ground/Land from the council with the extra income.

But we didn't have the foresight/council willingness to sell, so we basically have no assets so are not viable for investment opportunities and have no way of creating new revenue streams away from "on the pitch" assets and matchdays.

Almost a hand to mouth existance. (or a hand to wallet existance for Mr Power if many on the fb fans page are to be believed)

Indeed, I fear it won't happen in the next 10 to 20 years unless we get a new owner with endless pockets (which again won't happen).

I don't think they need to be that endless if the motivation was there from both the club and the Council, a good start would be two end stands, a tart up of the Arkells and something that makes money 24/7 like offices or a hotel.

Fleetwood lease from the Council and have managed to get somewhere with less than £10m spent? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highbury_Stadium_(Fleetwood) 

But taking note of our subsequent financial adventures how fucked would we have been if the club had also been lumbered with a bloody enormous redevelopment debt at those times, plus with our history of chancers over the last 20 years we would have been ripe for one of them to leave us in a Kassam situation?

Being devoid of assets has certain positives in the modern game, although clever chaps like Power can apparently strip what is not actually there?

£60m seems bloody good value for a 34,000 seater stadium when you consider the Oakland Raiders are proposing to relocate their franchise to Vegas and build a new stadium for $1.9 billion 60,000 seater stadium.

Probably made of gold.

When I said about buying the ground I did not actually mean that the previous incumbants already rebuilt the stadium just that we owned the stadium/land now so that IF we wanted to build/redevelop/sell then we would be in a better position financially now.

I believe Gary Stanley suggested we build a wall around the County Ground to give the illusion of a new stadium many years ago!

Our problem is the council, Colchester council paid for theirs and use it as a community asset, if the council only put up half of the funds to rebuild the CG it would be a better investment than someo of their hair brained ideas they come up with, it will give the town a major boost of visitors, the area wouldn't look so down and the council would easily be able to get their money back with higher rent and more spending done by visitors.

Unfortunately the club is a poor investment in the council eyes and they would rather not deal with it, they stopped previous owners building elsewhere but won't help them smarten up the current one.

Apologies I did slightly misinterpret the comment, but the point remains - think how many houses diamond mike could have got on the site, or I dread to think what Jed could have used it for.  :hmmm:


I am in no way defending Swindon Borough Council (I am presently (for the first time) dealing with them on a number of planning applications and they are one of the most unhelpful I have encountered in England and Wales so I am no fan!  :badmood:)

However I just don't see what they stand to really gain from redeveloping the site, I am not sure if any more visitors would come to the town as would a new ground attract more away supporters (perhaps once for the 92'ers) equally as the main engagement directly is to the back of the DRS is it that much of a municipal eyesore?

If they put the rent up could we actually afford it unless crowds went up, I suspect its the state of whats happening on the pitch is whats keeping crowd low and even with a microbrewery and cheese tasting a new ground isn't going to spike things that much?

I suppose the key question how would the members feel about trying to justify throwing £15m at the scheme and explaining that to their constituents?

or with the right people we could have been another Reading* or Swansea.

* yeah, until recently.

there's no real way to tell if we'd be better or worse off is there.

also, where there is a club there is a way to make cash. Ask Diamandis. it's just less attractive.

A redeveloped ground would include:

- better facilities (hotel, conference rooms, boxes, restaurants)
- more seating and better facilities
- more (better) parking

So even if we didn't increase our tickets sold there would be more income from better facilities on match day and other days, the stadium is rarely used outside of game time, but if I put us up against someone like Worcester Rugby, there facilities are used a hell of a lot as they invested in lots of conference space for companies / events to use. I do a lot of business events and Swindon is craving for decent conference facilities for events, the only real "business show" happens at Steam and that's fricking awful but the size of Swindon and we have piss poor facilities.

These events get on average 5-10k attendees, mostly businessmen / women who would look at sponsorships inside the ground and using the facilities for their own events.

Lets put this in the councils view, 7k people coming to games, say 500 need to park = income, then they will likely buy food before and after the game, maybe stay at a hotel if it's a long drive (not many though). The council may not get much but the business rates of the businesses who rely on the football traffic. The club would also pay a higher rent as the maintenance of the ground will go down dramatically and there would be a lot more income so generates a higher rental).

Considering how much the council have wasted on stupid crap including the wifi scandal, the oasis and other stuff, surely putting £15m up to rebuild the CG would be a better use of tax payer money than other things they come up with wasting their budget.

The Council did just spend 15million on a car park, and demolished another couple at the same time, so anything is possible.  The trick has always been that any development has always been approached from what it would do the for the Club, not the Council.  Given they can't even manage to develop their own land where they ran the sites though, I wouldn't hold your breath.  They've shown willing to pass off the buck on every other asset of community value they've had.

Exactly..... they won't let the club leave the town centre so they surely should be helping the club improve it so it doesn't look like an eyesore. The only part of the ground which doesn't need knocking down is the DR but that needs to be modified to open up the boxes hidden in the middle.

Rebuilding the arkells and the TE will dramatically improve the look and feel of the stadium and increase revenue in the ground and will be less costly than their other ideas with better ROI for the council.

You probably need to understand that with SBC, they will be looking to condemn parts of the CG, rather than thinking about redevelopment. The ruse, is to hand over our assets to their chums to run for a few years, when there's no profit than a change of use can be applied for. Therefore forget any shiny new stuff, but be prepared to fight for the CG we've got now, because it certainly shouldn't be taken for granted in the Post Brexit/Trump world.

Fortunately they don't own the stadium, they only own the land (as far as I am aware), so it's not an asset they can (currently) sell off but if they were to invest in getting it redeveloped then they would likely want to own some or all of it BUT not many owners would allow that to happen (as owners want assets for the club).

I wouldn't trust a councillor as far as I can throw them so we would have to go into anything like this with eyes open but if other towns and cities can help their clubs redevelop their grounds, why can't SBC as the benefits to the town as a whole are substantial.

We live in an Orwellian world...SBC are forever setting up consultancies or covert developers to manage our assets in and around the Town Centre....they provide the nuspeak bullshit about how great everything is and what plans they have, when everyone else can see a rapid degeneration, into some sort of dystopian hell. A smartly redeveloped CG on its current footprint would be a very good way to commence the regeneration of the Town Centre area.....therefore it will never happen.

I am going to do it again, and I feel filthy for it!  ;)

At no point AFAIAA have the Council expressed any opinion ether way about the club leaving the town centre, merely that the sites put forward so far have been pretty crappy in planning and or environmental terms?

One could argue that the Council have a potential CoI in that if they give consent for a move they lose a tenant and thus revenue, not sure where this stands in planning terms as they have a potential financial interest in the scheme, its Friday afternoon and I cannot be arsed to look at the regs!

Was it not designated as an AoCV and thus if the Council wish to dispose they legally have to offer to the community before hand, rather putting the mockers on any nefarious ideas they may have?

Yes, but would the Trust etc be able to find the money, within the 6 month window?  :shrug:

To be honest in some ways it could be the best thing the Council could do for the Trust as it might galvanize the supporter base and possibly the wider town (you don't appreciate things until you lose them) plus make a few people put their money where their mouth is?

They control planning regs so can veto any plans, so they can and will stop any development in their borough as the CG land is useless without the ground, and they can't sell it as it has a covenant on it so will do what they can to keep the club there earning them income from the land.

If I remember rightly one of the old plans was to build where the hospital is but was vetoed for being a brownfield site and not great for development........... but then they put a hospital on it........ As I said I don't trust them and they have rarely done anything to help the club while lining their pockets (councilors, what do you expect).

It would be beneficial for both the club and the town if they could both sit down together and do something with the ground.

Its a quiet afternoon and I have been writing planning strategies all afternoon so am in the zone.

Even if SBC did refuse an application (incidentally they do not control planning policy and regulation it is either government imposed (various Acts of parliament and the riveting National Planning Policy Framework) or even the local policy is subject to independent (ish) government inspection before it is adopted) the applicant would be able to appeal to the Planning Inspectorate for an independent review of the case, PINS can grant permission on behalf of the secretary of state should they conclude the proposal is policy compliant and if SBC refused on unreasonable grounds the applicant can also go for reasonable costs leaving the Council with a massive bill to explain to the taxpayer. So they may be able to delay development but they cannot stop it, as noted above they may have to refer any decision to the Secretary of State due to a CoI anyway which may focus some minds prior to making a decision in the first place.

I cannot really comment on the hospital as I have not set foot in Swindon for 10+ years (although I suspect your mean greenfield as brownfield would be ideal for a new ground). What the club really need is a big industrial site to come on the market, suppose what happens with Brexit but how settled are Honda for instance as an entirely hypothetical example?

Entirely agree with your final comment, a quick google notes 'Forward Swindon' which if the club were my Client would be the first people I would be suggesting they sit down with.

And therein endeth the lesson on the tedium of the English planning system  ;) :D

The council don't want the club out of the town as they rely on them for the rent on the land but also with footfall towards the ground, they will come up with any reason possible to stop the club leaving the current land but they couldn't stop them leaving the Swindon borough BUT would it be a good idea for the club to do that.

I don't remember that much but possibly greenfield.... both sound right to me as a layman  :hmmm:

forward swindon = SBC in yet another company so it's the same issue again but they are adamant on rebuilding the town centre but have an ugly lump of a stadium in the middle of it. The club have so much potential in a town of 200k+ but realistically they are being held back by a crappy stadium, it's an under used by the town. Look at Reading's, Worcester and Oxford (hotel and conference facilities), they have various facilities to build additional revenue to the club.

forward swindon = SBC

 :nod:

 Sitting down with them should be a last resort.

Trump just said in his inauguration he is buying and redeveloping the CG

build a wall to keep out the scum?  :beers:

They need to sit down and work together if anything was too happen

Corrected the above for you  ;)

In terms of council regeneration vehicles I have not dealt with the one in Swindon, but you would be surprised. I have been working on two big schemes where the planners hate the scheme but have not refused them as yet (in one case its been going on for a year +) as the Council regeneration vehicle who are judged purely on investment and jobs created desperately want it to happen and are thus lobbying all over the place on our behalf to persuade members etc to over ride the planners.

Anyway as I said above it ain't gong to happen in my lifetime and I have had enough planning for today!

Is he going to make it great? Everything is great in Donald world

Whose going to pay for it?

Interestingly, given we know the Council is not going to grasp anything resembling a bull by the horns, the current farce with the Milton Road Baths is giving the club a way forward.  The Council, having leased the property, are not fundamentally opposed to the Leasee redeveloping the land to make it "viable" and in the process changing the use of the land to housing.  The club should be watching this closely, because even if it doesn't go ahead, it marks a shift in their previous concerns about a CG development.  The key to any development has always been finding new ways to fund it, either by providing community assets so the Council can lend money against it, or private funding through new facilities and or housing onsite.  The Milton Rd proposals show they couldn't really stand against it, leaving it entirely down to planning.

Can't see anything happening in the near future. Lee Power has said the ground is not a priority, the lease has lapsed and there's £2m due to Andrew Black if we redevelop it.

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