Thetownend.com

The manner in which the present crisis in Europe is bringing out the worst in all sides of the British public spectrum...

On one side we seem to have all manner of Britain's First rhetoric being rolled out..

On the other Facebook now seems to be full of people proposing to hire transit vans and drive stuff to Calais and other such tosh which is very obviously for our benefit to show how caring and liberal the writers are... (a particular highlight has been 'we have a house in Spain and I just cannot decide whether to open it up for refugees' - seriously!)

I read somewhere about money being raised to create a banner in support of the refugees for our next home game.

Admirable sentitment but a bit pointless really

Ah, the overt modern need to be seen doing something, rather than just do it. Not specific to any one cause unfortunately.

Want to donate or do a good thing? Go ahead, but don't tweet, facebook, instagram, snapchat or anything else about it you cockwomble!

Why pointless? Celtic fans don't seem to think so.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/scottish/refugee-crisis-celtic-vow-to-donate-proceeds-from-charity-match-this-weekend-to-refugee-crisis-10485897.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/scottish/refugee-crisis-celtic-vow-to-donate-proceeds-from-charity-match-this-weekend-to-refugee-crisis-10485897.html)

A lot of people seem to think that saying or doing anything in support of anything has become pointless. A submissive public is a politician's dream.

Edit: If Abrahammer meant that putting money into a banner rather than donating it to the crisis was pointless, then I understand.

Basically yes, on basis I think holding up a banner is quite frankly a massive waste of time.

The couple of hundred quid it would cost would be a lot more valuable should it be donated

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/sep/03/english-football-supporters-groups-refugees-welcome-banners

What if the banner reaches a couple of thousand people who all donate a quid?

The club are funding it and donating also. I had an email this morning but only skimmed it so far

Buckets would be better

Isn't it saying that the individuals concerned are willing to open up their homes and take in a refugee?

Or adds to a tide of public demonstrations of demands for action. Which actually given the scale and causes of the crisis is far more powerful than donations. Contrary to Abrahammer, I'd suggest that individual donations totalling a few hundred quid are far more pointless than pressure on the politicians who caused the crisis that the public don't share their "Ah, well fuck 'em" sentiments to seeing kids drowning on the shores of Europe. People across Europe frightening our rulers into taking at least some remedial action is in this case far more likely to save/help more people than a few quid in an Oxfam bucket. (Not saying people shouldn't donate, btw)

How did the politicians cause the crisis?

That is one of the stupidest things you've ever said. Well done.

I've been looking around to see if that's an option.  Cant find anything

As far as I am aware the mass migration of people is due to conflict etc, how are our politicians to blame? Aren't European countries taking in refugees?

The Iraq War destablised the whole region. Islamic State grew out of Al Qaida in Iraq, bolstered by remnants of the Ba'athist army that the West/US dismantled and their top leadership got together and pretty much formed their Caliphate plan in US prisons in Iraq.
There's plenty of evidence that the West did much to forment the unrest in Syria as part of the "Arab Spring" as it suited our strategic interests at the time (which were to undermine Iran's growing regional power, ironically now boosted as they are a local bulwark against IS).
And we helped spread the clusterfuck with a half-arsed intervention in Libya which proved we'd learned nothing from the failures in Iraq. Libya now being a second front/stronghold of IS and associated jihadi nutjobs and a major trafficking route for drowning migrants trying to escape this and other signal failures of international policy in East and Central Africa. Clearly, the jihadi nutjobs etc in Libya,Syria, Iraq etc take the lion's share of the blame for the atrocities they commit but our politicians created the climate in which they were able to breed and establish themselves

Don't disagree, but the volatility of the area and the history of conflict has always been there, what does that come down to? What do a majority of the world's current conflicts boil down to?

Really? On the scale we've seen over the past decade or so? It's been tense since we carved it up post WW1 and WW2, and there's been a few minor wars in the region but it took the US fuck-up of Iraq, willingly abetted by TrustMeTony, to cause the total disintegration we're seeing now.

Religion innit....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34154616?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

Surely giving someone like this Bail is a massive risk?! Yes, I know they can be monitored but surely it's safer for everyone if they were behind bars?

I haven't read every post about it but I just want to clear up what the banner is about.

Basically this group started a campaign to follow in the footsteps of Germany and their "Refugees welcome" banners all over the Budesliga. See here: https://twitter.com/refugeesefl

I wanted to join in, so I wanted to raise £40 or so to afford to make a cheapo banner, but Swindon fans have joined me with it and donated over £150 now. So we'll be holding up a 'refugees welcome' banner to raise awareness or just start a conversation about it. Any money left after I buy & make the banner will be donated to a JustGiving fundraiser helping with the situation.

I want to make clear that I'm not trying to speak for every Swindon fan as I know everyone has different opinions on the subject. I just wanted to use the mini following I have on Twitter that love the display stuff I do and use it for something positive.

The response I've received has been 90% positive to the idea, so I've decided to go with it and join the likes of Aston Villa, Charlton, Wimbledon and a lot more and put this display on. I have spoken to Barnsley and they are going to discuss it with the Directors to decide whether they'll let the 'no politics banners' rule slide just this once.

Can you just confirm that it is you and your acolytes  intention is to take personal care of a refugee.....like Bob Geldof is doing.

Swindon has already taken a number of Syrian refugees, in the same way as it always has post war in a variety of situations....just it not something that a song and dance is usually made about.

Here's something positive you could do. Donate that money you raise for a pathetic little rag to something that might make a difference somewhere.

I don't give a fuck what cause you choose to donate it to, whether I agree with it or not, but put it somewhere where even 10% of it might make a difference to someone, somewhere,  instead of lining the pockets of a printing firm.

Honestly, people like you are so misguided it's laughable.

>:(

People donate a few quid to ease their conscience - 'I've done my bit'.

My solution is to stop the economic migrants from the fucking EEC and take in families fleeing for their lives.

Bob Geldof gets on my fucking tits.

Loves a bandwagon that cunt

The luvvies are all the fucking same.

Stick a family of migrants next door to them and they'd be the first to moan

Still the anger management issues then.

I'd prefer a bouncer type policy of one out, one in......everytime a family clear off to join ISIS in Syria, a fleeing family gets in.

Yeah but he has got his story in the papers as a great humanitarian (which seems to be the objective of most people at the moment!) - you cannot really fault the mans offer for housing refugees in his four homes....

None of this is going to end well.
Get out of Europe (Vote NO in a referendum if ever we get one) and close are borders to all n sundry before it is too late.
It is probably too late already.

And burn anyone who looks like they may be a witch

www.youtube.com/watch?v=sglyFwTjfDU

One of the main tests for witches was whether they could swim or not. Not sure you could tell just by looking at one.

I thought they had to weigh less than a duck

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be angry with people who chose pathetic little gestures that mean nothing and achieve fuck all, except to inflate their ego's and pander to the narrative that 'we must be seen to being doing something'.

Quite happy to be labeled angry on that basis, no fucking worries.

He didn't think that through in light of recent events, did he?

Iron side is spot on.

No, he's not. While I've got little time for people whose entire social conscience amounts to clicking like on fb petitions, I've a lot more respect for someone like Jaybox who'll actually get off their arse and do something to raise some money than the other stereotype of our time, the keyboard warrior, who shoots everyone else down while contributing nothing positive themselves.

Unless he's out picking survivors off the beaches of the Côte d'Azur as we speak, of course.

Maybe politics and football should not be mixing?

Agreed, Next we will be mixing Football and Religion. God knows where that will end up.

I tend to agree with Ironside on this.....

Jaybox is doing nothing. Absolutely Fuck all other than making an empty, worthless and ultimately pointless gesture.

Still, I bet he feels like he, and people like you, feel good about it.

Ironsides is a cunt. The 'pathetic little flag' that he is so keen to mock has gained mention in the local and national press. That's publicity, of a kind that the current government don't want. The more vocal the support for the refugees, the more chance there is of The UK taking its fair share.

You're a good lad Jaybox. Keep it up.

I am a cunt. No doubt about it. But then again, I don't pretend to 'make a difference' while actually doing fuck all.

What exactly will a little flag achieve when you've got the BBC and Sky playing the whole 'do something!' narrative 24/7?

Talk about useful idiots.

UK, already has and continues to take its fair share of migrants/asylum seekers/ and refugees. At present there are 8 million people resident in the UK not born here. At the present rate of 1/3 mill annually we'll have tacked on a potential extra mill to the population by the next WC in 2018. To me this seems a fair policy.

This is what needs to happen, send anyone on benefits from the Eu back, so we can genuinely help people who need it. I worked at Immigration in the Home Office at the turn of the millennium. It was laughable who we let in, and now because of it. People who really need help have multiple barriers. I'd start by sending all the pissed up poles at every single seaside resort back, that makes space for a few thousand for starters

we haven't our 'new' cat very long but she seems to love scratching the curtains and jumping around after flying things in the middle of the night
Plus everytime you try to pick her up she crys and scratches like hell..very odd one indeed.

You'd have to have Lee Power's grip of modern media methods to believe that what Jay and other pressure groups are doing is having no effect on government policy. Like it or not - and you clearly don't - social media is today's means of mobilising people and getting a message across.

Meanwhile, I'm still not hearing your ideas on how we should be helping more effectively.

This island is over-populated for sure but we must do more to help.  

Currently Germany has the moral high ground which is fucking unbelievable when you consider what a racist xenophobic nation they are (ok maybe that's just Bavaria but so what)

I guess Ironside is right to some extent but Cameron is doing a gradual about-turn in the face of public pressure and every football ground displaying a few banners will help that pressure grow.  If the people doing it feel better about themselves than some of you think it merits then I don't suppose the refugees will give a toss as long as it helps them get a safe haven for their families.

 :fishing:

Surely to be a refugee you apply for asylum in the first safe country you arrive at.
After that they just become migrants.

I keep hearing this Britain is over populated thing repeated as an assumed fact but I just don't get it. We're the fifty-third most densely populated country on earth, that's hardly rammed is it? What people perhaps mean is there just aren't enough houses, which is absolutely true, but the reason there aren't enough being built is a combination of lack of political will and planning regulations, not a total lack of available land (outside of London perhaps).

Yeah just sounds like a normal cat.

The cunt that was in my back garden last night trying to break into my shed...try again tonight and I wrap my 2iron round his head

do you reckon he's on here?

Well there are a few delinquents so wouldn't surprise me...who is ya money on?

definitely Reg

Well he left his garden shears in our garden and they were pink so that's a big clue

Most of these people are leaving safe havens, to take a punt on getting a better deal in places like Northern Europe....hence the willingness to pay decent money to people traffickers.

If Germany wishes to take in as stated 800,000 people then fair pay to them....but I don't think they can claim any moral high ground.

At the Sweatie referendum, Samond said an independent Scotland would need more immigrants, Sturgeon has echoed this, so one solution might be to resettle Syrians in Scotland, funded out of the Scottish parliament's pot

I damn hope we don't, most of them will just drain the system. We pay too much tax here as it is

These people haven't suddenly thought 'I would like a new washing machine, let's go to Europe'.

They are willing to risk their and their childrens' lives to leave their homes where they fear for their lives.

They need help. Romanians and Bulgarians do not.

I believe Frau Merkel is aware of Germany's need for fresh workers in its factories.

Historically you had the Turkish "guest workers" who could work and earn but not be regarded as citizens, I believe that has now changed. So in a sense Germany is trying to catch up on a process which wehave been undertaking for 60 odd years.

No place for racism on the TEF....

Nothing racist about that. It's the truth that if Romanians and Bulgarians, amongst other Europeans, stay in their own countries they are unlikely to get slaughtered.

The people fleeing Syria will.

Singling out Romanians and Bulgarians is racist. All citizens of the EU are legally entitled to move within the union.

Syrians escaping slaughter are legally entitled to seek refuge in the first country they can reach....then can legally apply to other countries for further temporary refuge.

The key aspect here is legally....we're having this 800 years of Magna Carta thing, which enshrined the rule of law.

If these laws are considered dated or dysfunctional then they can be changed by political process.....no doubt the forthcoming referendum on the EU will focus minds on this subject.

Actually, a lot of "raising awareness" initiatives do make changes. There's very little research on the topic literally, but what is apparent is that human beings live by societal norms and that the more these things become "the norm" in the social groups people live in (i.e. football , as an example) the more people might begin to look into the issue and change their perspective, if necessary.

What I think you mean to describe (and does not apply to Jay at all, imo) is the culture of so-called 'slactivism'. Which you might equate to clicking "like" on a facebook petition and you'd consider completely pointless. Arguably, in some cases, yes it is.

But you know what's more pointless - what doesn't help anybody? Being a dick.

You could have said "Nice idea, but couldn't you spend the money better elsewhere?"

No, you chose to be a dick.

Did you say "well, I'd happily put some money towards it if it were going to a cause rather than a flag"?

No, you chose to [attempt to] undermine someone's intelligence because he disagreed with you. You were a dick.

Have you ever helped anybody by being a complete dick?

You're way off the mark here Ells....I have a long history of disagreement with Ironside but he's right on this.

No he's not and neither are you.

the issue of refugees has nothing to do with football, and I think banners like this are pointless  - sorry if that is being blunt, but it's just an opinion.
If people want to help, better to donate things like clothes, toiletries, funds etc setup to help these people integrate in the country they end up in - language courses, job training and so forth.

If you don't think this is a PR fight as much as anything else then I don't know what to say. Compare and contrast government policy last week and this and it's surely clear that pressure from the media and public has caused them to swivel on a dime. Do you think that would have happened if everyone in Britain had quietly given £10 to UNICEF and got on with their lives? I think charitable giving is incredibly important, but there is a time and place for raising awareness and this is a textbook example.

Well done Jay. The fact that people are talking about it is vindication enough.

Now you have local councils apparently offering assistance, despite not having the facilities to look after the UK's existing amount of homeless people. There are just over 38,500 spaces in hostels for single homeless people in England a big reduction due to government cuts. Are the Syrians going to be given special treatment ahead of the existing British homeless?

We need to take more refugees/migrants than we do currently, I think everyone on here is agreed on that.

Clearly I don't want any of them living anywhere near me causing congestion and lowering house prices but there are plenty of places in Britain I never visit and any of them would be fine.

Just like we need to build more houses. And that big shiny new airport. As long as they are nowhere near me.

95pc agree that we need to take our share of genuine refugees, me included. And from what we've seen on the news over the past few years a genuine refugee is pretty much anyone in Syria/Somalia etc who doesn't susbcribe to the IS / al shabab way of life. But clearly there are shit loads of people en route to Western Europe who are just economic migrants. With germany taking 800k this year  it certainly won't deter anyone in safe but less prosperous lands making the trip.

Whilst it would be wholly unfair to expect European border countries to accept all at the point of entry, you have to question why very few stay put once in a safe country.  Without more control at this point it could get very messy.

Picking up on a comment earlier, we are certainly not an over crowded country. Only omething like 6pc of the country is brownfield/previously developed.

This is probably the wisest thing ever written on this site. I'm dead against what jbx is doing and thus politicizing my football club.

First lesson of any academic study of sport: Sport, politics, culture, society will be forever inextricably linked.

Tricky road to go down, a tiny minority visibly politicising a whole fan base, and because of that its not something I particularly agree with, irrelevant of my views on the subject.

Here's the thoughts of someone at the pointy end of the debate....

David Simmonds, of the LGA’s asylum, refugee and migrant taskforce, said English councils were already taking 2,000 unaccompanied refugee children a year at a cost of £50,000 per child. A further £150m a year was being spent supporting destitute families whose asylum applications have been turned down.

He told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “If we are going to scale those numbers up significantly, we need to make sure that those kinds of resources are available to England’s councils and also other public services to make sure we have what is required in terms of school places, hospital beds, GPs, that sort of thing.”

Simmonds said councils would be delighted by any families who follow Bob Geldof’s example and offer to put up refugees in their homes. But he suggested that the priority would be to rehouse families already in the UK, rather than those who are to be resettled from the camps bordering Syria.

I agree with that comment.
My view is that somebody who wants to hold up a banner or such like should not think he/she represents the whole of a support-base and/or their opinions

Maybe the banner should be held only by people who agree with it. And you get some people to hold your "I want nothing to do with this" banner. I think that's how banners work.

Yeah that's gonna work well.

Banner 1 'refugees welcome'

Banner 2 'no refugees here'

You'd get your knickers in a twist about banner 2 but support banner 1, whether or not banner 2 actually reflects public opinion.

No doubt your opposition to banner 2 will be accompanied by howls of 'racism' and 'evil tories' along with references to Thatcher (who's still dead) while begging everyone to vote for Corbyn.

You sound like a bandwagon jumper who likes to attach himself to anything that's trending on twatter and is deemed trendy by some cunt who's opinion is equally as misguided - or as it should be called, intellectualy retarded - as yours.

Irrespective of your opinion on whether the EU, or individual members of it, should accommodate these people, there's one thing you cannot argue with.

My post referred to the ridiculous idea of waving a piece of cloth around at a football game. Unless you've been in a coma for the last 6 weeks, you cannot have failed to have seen what's happening. It's on every news bulletin, on every channel. It's on every rolling news channel. It's been on the front page of every paper on the continent every day this week. Every cunt on twatter and Facebook have been constantly banging on about it. If you still think waving a small rag at a third division football match is going to 'raise awareness' then you clearly are stupid.

If Jaygay cares so much, then perhaps he should rethink his empty gesture and do something different, something that can actually effect someone's life and immediate circumstances. A flag won't do that.

And... breathe. You really do have more hate than you know what to do with. Oh, and well done for "Jaygay". You tick all the boxes don't you.

Meanwhile, still no alternatives to suggest? But that's not what you do is it.

6 pages of this?

I can feel a twitch coming on.....

I have never felt so proud of a nation as Germany today. The news footage of smiling residents greeting refugees is honestly one of the best things I have ever seen.

Banner 3 - "Whatever I think about banners 1 and 2, I'm terribly disappointed with Reg happily aligning himself with Ironside"

I'll hold one end.

:D fantastic.

A drop in the ocean compared to the billions spent on pointless nuclear weapons (yes, I know this a lazy argument stance to take).  It's all about value based decisions, I'm not sure I see many things that outweigh the support of people in danger thanks to a situation my country helped create.

I have no opinion on the use of banners to support this, but I'd like to think a country that can afford to lavish millions per year on average footballers can set aside a little of our national income to help people in need.  Fuck borders - if we suffer pain as a nation it should focus the minds on doing something positive to solve the issue.

This is obviously a major debate with a lot of contradicting views.

What annoys me is the hypocrisy ( and I am probably as guilty as anyone ) where all of a sudden we want to help after seeing a dead child but unless you are willing to actually let them live with you (Honkytonk) we are doing nothing.

Sorry, what's hypocritical of me? Saying Germany has done a good thing? Therefore inferring somehow that if someone in need turned up on my doorstep I would tell them to fuck off?

I have a paddock so I suppose I could get thirty or so migrants in there in tents but I don't think they'd appreciate the two buses a week we get round here, the fact the nearest passport office is at least 4 hours away, and the severe lack of jobs. On the plus side I could feel very middle class smug and self satisfied. Maureen over the fence only gave money to the red cross. I'd have a full on refugee camp! She and all the upper middle class people who try to outdo each other on the council will be so jealous...

Germany has done a thing whether it's good or bad is yet to be seen. My point is sre you going to let these poor refugees live with you?

I am sur the lack of buses would be the least of their worries.

Practicalities. I would help someone who turned up on my doorstep in need as I hope you would do. Whether lodging refugees in a place such as where I live is a sensible idea is another thing entirely.

It's all very well and good pointing the finger and going 'WOULD YOU HELP THEM?! ' at people but it doesnt help them one jot just scores easy points.

And I don't know about you but I think those people greeted with smiling faces and gifts from the locals after travelling thousands of miles in squalor and fear with people assaulting them would prefer the German reaction. It's positive and a genuine touch of humanity that is often missing from the news. And on a practical note makes processing them easier. Happy people are more willing to be sheparded about than those whose backs are up because the police or locals have been aggressive.

Are you thinking of the likes of Sterling here....the UAE spend this summer could probably help refugees already here let alone those to come, that the Emirates as pointed out by Amnesty does next to fuck all does raise questions.

Amnesty International recently pointed out, the "six Gulf countries -- Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and Bahrain -- have offered zero resettlement places to Syrian refugees."

Of course Honkytonk,  practicalities make it almost impossible to house someone yourself.

But if the government suddenly decided to open a hostel next door to you , I am sure you would scream blue murder. Hence the hypocrisy.

Let them all in as long as they don't live by me.

I'm also curious as to why no-one so far appears to have suggested that America might take some of the refugees.

Why on earth should America have to do anything? This is a European issue.  America aren't responsible in any way for this problem arising, why should they be expected to ride to the rescue yet again?

That'll happen when we start taking our fair share of Mexicans.  You have to draw the line somewhere.

What about Turkey?

Can we not do both? I know some non league clubs have set up donation points for clothes and food at their grounds (I sent a mate with some of my clothes to one near me yesterday as I was going to be at Crewe), could a local charity collect at the CG.

It's easier for people to take stuff to somewhere they are already going rather than make a dedicated journey, does anyone know any local charities who are organising collections in the area, could they be contacted. I don't as I'm not local to Swindon.

Why are more than a million refugees in Lebanon and Jordan a European issue? Whether or not you think America is any way responsible for the crisis, it has been heavily involved in the region. Why shouldn't it be part of the solution?

I don't think the Mexico comparison holds - we're not talking a refugee crisis there, and we haven't sought to be involved in that region.

You really need to read the news 4D.

V Hi
Give me one statue based reason why they should.

Here's one: because they're part of the civilized world. Why should the Middle East be more of a European than an American problem?

Here's another: the US has been more involved in shaping regime changes in the region than any other country in the past two decades. They might want to help alleviate the crisis that regime changes have caused.

And one more: US bombs are currently destroying houses in Syria. Whatever the rights and wrongs of that, they might want to help out the people that they, among others, are displacing.

Apart from the issue of refugees turning up on Europe's doorstep, I don't see why people are so keen to characterise this as a uniquely European problem.

On that I concur, provided they are free of their threat to life. every country in the world should be chipping in and should have been well before some kid washed up on a beach. 

It's strange how we fall over ourselves to help people suffering from famine because they live in a country which has a tendency to have droughts, but ring our hands for months and years about people wanting to leave a war torn area that we helped create.

Look, shorthand the power vacuum created by the invasion of Iraq and the unplanned and ultimately naïve occupation and handover to democracy (ie religous, sectarian and nationalistic fighting) has allowed the present refugee crisis to flourish under the unenviable ISIS v brutal dictator scenario in which the USA feels at liberty to bomb Syrian national territory and discuss (yes, once again and as usual without reference to supra national bodies) invasion.

There are multiple causes for the present situation but the USA can hardly claim "nothing to do with me, Guv" given its history of interference (benevolent or not) in the region.

There are no statutes I can think of obliging USA to take refugees from Syria just as there were none obliging it to take European jewish refugees in/after WW2

Its about a universal concept called humanity and in Europe AND the USAs case also something we call western civilisation, innit?

Sorry fella, I thought you'd just quote the bit at the bottom of the Statue of liberty about poor, huddled masses. That was the angle I was driving at. Don't disagree with you btw.

Oh, you really did mean statue based :clap:

Her's a statue based justification, then

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/06/isis-destroys-ancient-assyrian-site-of-nimrud#img-2

Nothing to worry about here, I need no convincing. This country gave my parents and grand parents a new home as they escaped Stalin. I don't think anyone has ever blamed the UK for Stalinism, but help was still offered.

Mind you the meeting in which the Social Democrats split into the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks did take place in London...

Ha. That statue. Should have spotted that.

Eh? No I wouldn't. I'd be a bit confused they chose my village but I wouldnt be against it. Where are you getting the idea that I am a massive nimby from? Huge logical jumps you're making here from me simply saying I was impressed at the German people's reaction.

The problem with America taking any of them is they've done all the exploring and dangerous stuff and they don't have enough of an industrial base any more. Part of the reason they took so many 'huddled masses' was because they needed pioneers, explorers, people to work in industry, people to fight the southern states etc etc. Now the general feeling is one of 'America is full'. The huddled masses are internal now instead of external.

As for UAE etc. taking refugees in, they're already got enough asian subcontinent workers on indentured servitude to build their ivory towers. Otherwise I'm sure they'd take them, free labourers is free labourers after all.

Good for you and for our country.   

There are always a few apologists even for Stalin or Hitler but not the UK as a whole. 

A real dilemma is when should we accept the likes of Saddam and Assad (and others) and what responsibilities are there for the consequences, often unintended, of interference.

If you want to help in a personal way, then it is entirely possible for you to notify your local council a willingness to accomodate a refugee or family. 

Councils have a legal obligation to find and fund places for refugees pending decisioins on their status....social housing is scarce, with very long waiting lists, so the private sector has to be used.

What absolute rubbish. America have caused the most instability of all countries when it comes to the Middle East.

Give me one reason WHY this is just a European issue?

I think you've missed at least two European countries out regarding Middle East instability.

I thought it was pretty obvious that I was joking. 

Clearly America, Bush Jr in particular, has been a major de-stabling factor in this whole mess with their naïve belief that every country is crying out to instantly become a stable democracy if only America would come in and rid them of the one evil dictator who is spoiling it for the peace-loving remainder of the population.

Ohhh very much this.
But if I was an arab I wouldn't want to go to these country's either.
Soft touch Britain sounds much nicer thankyou.

I like the argument that we have our own problems to deal with. Amazed we got any problems in this country with the amount of people who seem to give a fuck all of a sudden

A fair percentage of Syrians are Christian and others, so it would be frying pan/fire. So I don't doubt some of them have no interest moving to Saudi etc, I sure as hell wouldn't.

I noticed last night and today around OT, that the homeless blokes seem a bit more chipper than usual. The fella with his homeless and hungry (or was it Hungary) sign doing very well  at the Sausage and Ale Trail.

This has been a brilliant read, thanks to all who have contributed to it.

Seriously, Jaygay? Come on.. that's just silly.

I find it hard to understand why people are so opposed to allow refugees fleeing for their lives into our country. The same people who,love all the positive things about our multi-cultural country.

I'm surprised thus far that no one has suggested that Poland take in a few hundred thousand refugees, last time I heard they were concerned about the fact so many young people had left......

Most of these refugees/economic migrants will want to ultimately find there way to the UK. This is not down to the fact they think we are soft touch or want our benefits but the simple fact that most will have English as there second language which makes us the most attractive option, we are a victim of our own language's success.

Jay is entitled to make his banner but I personally think it would be more appropriate for him to stand outside the house of commons with it rather than a football match.

Football is a spectator sport, not a place to voice political opinions, don't mix the two.  :no:

Right, I tried to raise £40 to buy fabric and paint. That's it, but instead here's our current total: http://www.gofundme.com/stfc_refugees

At time of writing it's over £200. All that's left is going to be donated to a fundraiser to directly help the refugees. Clubs all over the country have fans holding banners up on the 12th. So if 10% of the 8,000 at Barnsley donate or talk about it, we've succeeded. If 10% of the people who read about it in the Independent, Guardian or BBC Wiltshire, we've succeeded.

Not all of us can take the time out to drive to Calais or run a collection for things, so we can only do what's possibly within our means.

And the insults later on in the feed, mate... "JayGay"? Very clever, although "GayBox" is what people usually go for.

Why would you want to drive to Calais to help refugees?

Atm there are an estimated 3 million refugees from Syria rightfully in camps  in neighbouring countries, including Iraq...plenty of scope to help them out.

We had less fucking fuss about the Irreducibli banner and they're a bunch of fascist thugs. But I suppose they have a link to football so that's all a-ok.

That's just an example. I know people are driving there to drop donated stuff off. The location wasn't the point. The point was we can't help physically, so we do what we can.

The Calais camps are full of economic migrants, not refugees.

You might be interested in this.....


Given the likely impact of IDS's benefit cuts, doubtless this number will be growing, and will likely include migrants and refugees.

Also it's on a scale where relatively small efforts can make a genuine difference....

Here's their website  http://www.homelessinbath.com/genesis-trust-lifeline-centre.html

 :pint:

Thanks. I'm aware of that, cause I live here. We have had some projects running recently to help the situation. So you're saying that I'm not allowed to try and do what I can to help the refugee crisis because the city I live in has some homeless people?

I don't see what the problem is? It's just a banner. It's not hurting a single person. It's doing no harm whatsoever. :(

Reg, this group were collecting donations and items they required at the food and river festival in Maelksham yesterday - I'm making up some toiletry bags and dropping them at the town hall this week. It's not much but I want to feel like I'm doing something.

I've just watched a couple on this morning who have been opening their house to refugees and trafficked people for 10 years - such an amazing couple

Ironically this just popped up on my feed: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/we-need-to-look-after-our-own-first-say-people-who-would-never-help-anyone-20150907101741

Has the Daily Mash launched a serious news service? Only that entire article appears to be spot on. Honestly, the number of people saying "charity begins at home" with the clear subtext that it should finish there too is depressing as anything.

No I'm saying that if you've got a few spare quid from your efforts, then much better to throw them at a small project on your doorstep....than the millions of refugees from Syria.

UK, through our taxes already donates the UN agreed 0.7% of GDP in aid to that end....interestingly only a couple of other countries match this effort....

This opinion that if you feel you should do something suddenly, you must support every single charity is one I have seen and heard spouted over and over and over. If you feel an affinity with a cause and want to put your time money and effort into it then you are doing enough. You don't have to support every single charity out there. For most people, giving to charity is a selfless act that removes some luxuries from their life so they can feel they have helped somehow.

The homeless situation in Bath is in no way on the same scale as the current migrant crisis. Why the hell should anyone dictate which cause you can and cannot give to?

I don't think making a suggestion is dictating.....

To go back to the original point....would it be appropriate at a Help For Heroes charity fundraiser the like of which we've had at the CG, for someone in the TE to raise a lets wipe out ISIS banner, as the former Archbishop of Canterbury was asking for yesterday?

Bloody hell its getting more and more like Facebook on here by the hour...

Like if u agree!

#POWEROUT.

I saw Nicky Ajose in the county ground car park the other day.

The Mash has been scarily real on any number of stories recently - just goes to show how frankly ridiculous this country is becoming....

Has anyone stopped to think whether any of the refugees/economic migrants (delete depending on what side of the political or social spectrum you stand) would want to come to Swindon - I suspect inflicting 5 years of watching Town on them would be as bad as anything they will endure elsewhere!

Oh, I don't know. Bahgdad Rovers and Damascus United are pretty shite.

As with migrants of any kind they would want to be accommodated with their own people - wherever that may be.

No different to the Brits taking over various towns in Spain.

Not so sure about that....the migrant ladies from Eastern Europe who I've accommodated, have all been very much for getting to know the local culture and fitting in.

In fact, being I suppose fairly ancient, I know shed loads of people from various immigrant communities, many of whom try very hard to avoid people from a similar background.

Cameron is announcing just how many refugees Britain will accept this afternoon.

Strangely, they will only be people who are in camps in Syria at the moment - not any that are presently in Europe.

If the number is somewhere around 20,000, how much is it going to cost just to transport them here.

Not really strange - those in Europe have escaped where they felt threatened and thus really are migrants.

That's a good comparison, for a different reason. Say people wanted to hold a Help For Heroes banner in the town end, and a load of people didn't agree because they thought we should first help innocent victims of our military action. They might have a point, but they'd still be moaning moronically about what is essentially a humanitarian message.

We could house some in the Stratton Bank, though even they would probably be appalled at the facilities.

The CG has already been used as a POW camp....hopefully it won't be needed again.

20,000 it is then.....a town the size of Chippenham.

Shunt the population of Chippenham to Syria and problem solved!

What it's failing to do is actually help anyone. How people will it feed? How many people will receive medical treatment? How many lives will be saved as a direct result of this banner?

None.

So ultimately, why are you doing it?

'Raising awareness' I hear you shout. Switch on your TV or buy a paper, log on to facebook or twitter, it's all over it and your banner changes nothing.

If you were actually as clever as you think you are, you would see that you are not directing your efforts sensibly at all.

If you really wanted to help make a difference, there are many ways you could do it. This isn't one of them.

On a scale of 1-10 how much does it bother you?

If nothing else it might make a few people, who've been through a terrible ordeal, feel like there are people in the World who care about what they've suffered. I thought the displays in Germany and people applauding at the train station was heartwarming. You do need a heart in the first place to feel that emotion though.

It's forty quid and a banner, FFS.

And how much of a problem do you have with Jay in particular?  You seem to have a strange level of angst towards him with the name calling and put downs you are throwing his way.

I understand that everybody has there opinions, but just because somebody's opinion differs to yours is there any need for it?  At least he is backing his opinion up with some sort of action..

Because of this Refugees Welcome banners at football campaign, Newcastle fans have raised £500+ and Swindon fans have donated £200+ to help. That feeds people.

And as I explained earlier, if one person sees the banner or an article/tweet showing 4 or 5 clubs in England holding the banners up and they end up giving £10 towards paying to help the refugees then it's a success.

I've had some comments saying with all the negative press from Swindon recently (ownership fights, media bans, lawsuits, 'keepers getting punched and the rest), this has actually made some people proud to be from Swindon or support the club and they have since got involved with donating supplied or money.

So don't give the whole "how does a banner help?", directly it doesn't. But indirectly, it has a huge impact. Especially when clubs all over the country are doing the same.

That's all well & good, Jay, but how many Syrians do you have living in your attic?

;)

Zero. I'm not really able to. So as I've said, I'm doing what I can, but it hasn't just been me. It's been the 19 Town fans in 4 days that have donated over £200 that have done it.

I'll be donating a tenner (on payday) as a direct result of reading about your banner and the gofundme efforts on the adver website. If you need an example of how you've directly helped, here it is

Maybe you can go and fetch them in your bandwagon

I don't think 95% of the people want to take more refugees ?
I think 95% of the people feel very sorry for them, and want to help, yes.

But I think well under 50% would actually want to take significantly more in.

So, keyboard warrior, for the third and last time, what is? Just give one hint of the effort you're making. I'll even give you some slack. When you did you last open your wallet to help someone? Anyone?

I'd be more impressed if he and his ilk donated 30 percent or more of their salary/pocket money to their cause, money where their mouths of if you like.
A banner in the County Ground smacks of "in my name" which it definitely is not.
This is the Arab springs natural progression into the Arab winter.
On a side note I see our glorious leaders have decided that drone strikes are ok. Fuck me, will we never learn to leave these God forsaken countries alone.

There is always conflict around the world, moving people isn't going to change that. In a few years time the conflict will be in Europe, the seeds of that are already starting to sprout.

Sounds like a fairly unnatural progression to me.  What about the Arab Summer and the Arab Autumn?

When was the last time David Cameron launched a drone strike in your town?

I'd be impressed if I ever saw 30% of my salary in the first place.

What's your point?

I don't think these people could cope with democracy and freedom (what ever that is) and you give them more credit than they deserve.
If a few middle class "students" hadn't kicked up a fuss Syria would still be a peaceful well run dictatorship, where most people could keep their head down and have a roof over their heads and a full stomach.
If that's not a third world utopia, I don't know what is.

what the actual fuck

It's not his fault. He's just a div.

Surely the vast majority of people on this planet want a decent and untroubled life, it's the dictators of hate that seem to have created a bandwagon.

There's a story of a refugee fleeing syria and someone picked up on him stating he wants to get new teeth up here. So the natural response of someone in England was "What a greedy prick, wanting a nice smile!".

Yet what he ignored was the fact that ISIS ripped his teeth out.

They're not escaping a dictatorship that offers them a comfortable life with a roof over their heads. They're escaping having them and their families being tortured and killed

Wow. Just wow.

This reminds me of one of Dave Gorman's 'found poems.'

Haha, just read it in that style, makes it quite funny :)

It's certainly true that there is little history of democracy in Islamic lands, and trying to impose western style democracy on them appears futile.

Turkey is the sole beacon.....which came about through the endeavours of Kemal Ataturk at the break up of the Ottoman Empire.....personally I regard Ataturk as one of the great men of history.

Turkey's democracy though is under threat in the current crisis....Erdogan is most keen to ensure no prospects of self determination or even a country for the Kurds.

David Cameron has stated his enthusiasm for Turkey acceding to the EU....it's easy to understand why, a democracy and NATO member on the borders of failed states probably needs our support.

The same was felt about NATO expansion into Ukraine and the borders of Russia.....that's not worked out too well either.

Malaysia? Indonesia?

Indonesia.....fragile democracy after years of military dictatorship.  Malaysia...more of a history.   Still think it's a valid comment that historically and currently in largely majority Islamic countries, that democracy isn't well developed.

I wouldn't call Indonesia a fragile democracy personally, although I wouldn't disagree with the last point. That's a little different from referring to Turkey as the sole beacon mind.

It's a fair enough point, I'll withdraw the word sole and replace the definite with the indefinite article.

I don't think France is threatening to take anyone's teeth ?
Why not stop there ?

I would suspect a lot of it's to do with the language?

Did anyone else shudder slightly when Germany announced they were preparing to process the refugees?

Split on this, for those fleeing war they are passing through say a choice of 13 European countries where there is no war, to get to England and Germany. A choice of better life is obviously the main priority for these people not safety.

We can and should also be doing more to help those in need but I agree with Cameron's first pledge. You have to sort Syria out which is the root of the problem. If you let more people in, they will all have the incentive to keep coming in. And there is an obvious limit.

I don't really understand the narrative that hoardes are swarming to get to the UK. In 2015:

7.6 million Syrians have been internally displaced (living in Syria but forced out of their own homes)

4.9 million have moved to neighbouring countries. Of this, 1.9 million into Turkey and 1.1 million accepted into Lebanon (a country with less than 4.5 million inhabitants)

349,000 have applied for asylum in Europe. 98,730 in Germany, 49 thousand in Serbia and Kosovo, 15 000 in Bulgaria to say a few.

2,204 Syrians have applied for asylum in the UK this year. 0.63% of the total in Europe. 0.04% of all Syrians that have been forced from their country this year have tried to live in the United Kingdom. It's literally nothing. Cameron has agreed to allow 4,000 a year until 2020. There are 433 councils in the UK - that's less than 10 people a council. I really don't understand why this is getting such a backlash, the figures are minuscule in the grand scheme of things

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34183150

http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/09/08/438539779/the-migrant-crisis-by-the-numbers

All the above sounds like a reasoned and logical summation.

I don't trust it.

https://youtu.be/4n-UGQcG3Jw?t=2m17s

Would hordes help understanding?

I've read about 7 or 8 of the pages on this thread.

There's plenty of dick-waving, insults and know-all political bullshit, as well as well as a few ignorant cunts with opinions that were obviously formed by the twitterati and the Daily Mail.

If a family of refugees (or kids, singles, couples, grandparents or whatever) needed shelter in my area, I'd offer them a home regardless of where they are from.

I'd do everything in my power to make them safe, clean, sheltered, dignified and fed. Anything more than that such as getting them schooled, working etc, well, we'd have to see what was needed and what was available to them at the time.

As long as they respected me, my family and my property, they'd be made welcome and I'd be happy to use my own money to fund it.

My logic is that if I were in the shit like a lot of these poor fuckers are, I'd hope that someone somewhere would have the humanity and kindness do the same for me and my family, no different than the families who looked after thousands of evacuees during the war.

I wouldn't want thanking for it and I wouldn't crow about it. I'd be really pissed off if my new house guests didn't at least become life long friends after they'd got themselves back on their feet after the adventure though.

The media have raised awareness about all this, which fair enough.

I don't need reminding by having a fucking banner being floated around the crowd during a football match by people who seem intent of foisting their good intentions on everyone else, however good they may be.

Don't get me wrong, the happy-clapper guy is entitled to organise fun stuff, but he should stick to the happy-clappy and leave the political stuff alone.

Woken this morning to a racial storm on Faceache (West Oxfordshire seems to have become some manner of racial hotbed since I left - does it have some manner of immigration problem?) apparently if Britain's First are to be believed (it is apparently the most shocking video I will ever see - which it was due to its degree of sheer bollocks) by around 2025 we will be a Muslim state and its all down to immigration and our dropping birth rates - which I see as a simple challenge - we should all be having much more sex, its all our fault, I am just glad we have them to point this out to us, we are sleep walking into a crisis whilst we should actually be banging like a shithouse door out of it!

Sounds like that 'debate' on the swindon fans group on facebook

Facebook is full of driveling morons spouting racist bullshit at the best of times, but the coverage of the Syrian refugees seems to have amplified it to another level.

It's been great unfriending so many people this week. Although, I really should just stop using Facebook.

 So what are individuals thoughts on the execution of British subjects by the government, who've made the reverse journey to Syria? 

 

Why its like watching a long drawn out car accident unfolding in front of your eyes, the real shock I am getting at the moment is how many people I went to school with in Burford appears to be insanely angry about this refugee thing? As I mentioned before has West Oxfordshire suddenly developed race hate issues or is it just they are all incredibly ill informed and paranoid as they have never actually left the Shire?

They made the choice to join the IS so pay the consequences. British or not, they were a threat.

Here's a really interesting article looking at what refugees have in their bags for their trips.

https://medium.com/@theIRC/what-s-in-my-bag-758d435f6e62

Heartbreaking to read “I hope we die. This life is not worth to live anymore. Everyone closed the door in our face, there is no future.”

 :no:

No sympathy from me.

Execution seems to show what camp you're in, Reg.

What difference does them being 'British' make when the killing is wholesale? I don't doubt for a minute, given the chance, they would murder you in your bed.

Don't interpret my thoughts on the basis of a question.  It's just that a question.

They are off on one again....

Can we all get back to supporting Town now please? I feel for these Syrian refugees but it's got fuck all to do with football and we don't need another subject to argue about. I think Jay is a first class tool for doing this. I'm all up for red and white banners and balloons creating a bit of needed atmosphere, but why bring this issue here to STFC? Whatever our opinions on the refugee crisis and Syrian war, we go to football to get away from the worlds problems, not have them thrust into our face by someone desperate for media attention to further his own ends. It's all over the tv and papers anyway. What on earth is Jay going to achieve by bringing it to the County Ground? What a prize plonker!

Although nice to see use of plonker...

I've turned notifications off so I don't get told about these anymore!  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

He's onto me. I am trying to further my own ends, but you'll never know what that plan is! Mwuhahaha. When I'm King of Swindon, you'll all... oh, I fear I've said too much.

Agree with this, I have unfriended many in the past week.  Not really anything to do with the people involved, just only interested in what my family and close friends have to say.  The rest is just BS and I too should just stop using it really..

One massive negative about FB is that you tend to encounter an awful lot of shit from idiots. One of the best things, however, is that you can block/unfollow them.

I went on the Facebookgroup  to see the horror for myself, couldn't find that thread but the Yaser one is hilarious

So much knee jerking 'he's a disgrace, he should never play for us again' with such little regard for the facts, it's almost impressive.

Or come on here instead  :)

I'm pinching this. Top post Delta

I'm sick of it already.

20,000 over 5 years is piss poor but how the hell can Germany can take 800,000 without thinking much about the future implications is impressive - crazy, but impressive.

Ahh but have you not thought that this is Cameron's way of saying "We'll limit Syrian refugees to 4000 pa." He's sugar coated a U-Turn that he thinks everyone will love him for. As you say it's piss poor "effort".  I think it's brilliant that Germany are being so pro active in this. Possibly their generation still feel several tinges of guilt (obviously it wasn't their fault) with the behaviour of Him (by him i don't mean Miles) lingering. Even today they still face intimidation for something that many were never part of. I think they're doing what every "slacking" country should be doing. As much as they bloody well can.  :pint:

BBC news had a some graphs on this morning predicting various things.
One was population growth, cant remember the end timeframe but UK was predicted highest growth of all european countries with Germany's actually dropping hugely despite the influx of migrants.

Also UK was 3rd in job creation ( Germany top ) and we were also 3rd in doctors per head ( Spain top )

Cant find the graphs online but a link here to Germany's population drop/UK's explosion

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34172729

Well, that population explosion will have fuck all to do with me - I had a bricking years ago.

Genius 8)

Last year UK had 600,000 incoming immigrants, the number for this year is expected to be similar.....I'm sure Germany can cope

Given 25,000 had applied for asylum in the first half of this year, I find that figure hard to believe

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34183150

Let's not confuse immigrants with asylum seekers...
On the flip side of Reg's stat, over 300,000 people emigrated from the UK last year....

Leaving a nett increase of approx 330k as released a week or so ago. So our population increased by Coventry last year. It was 300k the year before.

That's right approx 600,000 came in 300,000 went out so a net gain of 300,000.

So, I presume Germany had a largish number of immigrants too. Add 800,000 to that and it's a massive influx

Yeah, I worked that out. Just pointing out it's not all one way traffic. Why I've even contributed to Reg's deviation of this thread into the migrant situation I don't know. I thought it was about refugees!

And how has that affected you Reg?

Germany is trying to catch up....they've only just awarded citizenship to the old Turkish guest workers.

A figure which doesn't include asylum seekers and of course, illegal immigrants.

I don't think you'd get anyone defending illegal immigrants.

But surely a person entering a country, from a safe country, without being subjected to the legally approved process, and using means to circumvent that process, can only be described as an illegal immigrant?

Anyone leaving Turkey and illegally entering another neighbouring country, without subjecting themselves to the normal means of entry, should be correctly described as an illegal immigrant surely?

Turkey is a safe country according to the United Nations.

Therefore, every single man, woman and child who put themselves into the Aegean, at night, in a fucking rubber dinghy, is not a a refugee but something else...

Absolutely 100% fucking correct.

Huge difference between an illegal immigrant, whose sole reason for going to a foreign country is economic and a refugee.

I think Ironsides has explained the difference pretty much spot on

Which bit of my explanation is confusing you?

Probably the fact that you've massively oversimplified a complex situation, and started arguing about semantics. At a guess.

There's not point in discussing anything with you if you can't acknowledge the difference between the two. I wonder, if you had kids and had to flee a country ripped apart by civil war; only to find yourself in a camp with 10's of 1000's of other 'illegal immigrants', with little sanitation, accommodation and no prospect of supporting your kids, or giving them the basics, wouldn't you try and go where you could?

Well at least you're now contributing to the discussion rather than just spouting bile, and for only the second time in this thread, you've said something halfway reasonable, albeit pretty limited. You're still skating over the surface of the issue by making it about terminology, though I suspect that's helpful to you in order to justify your "not my problem" attitude.

Yes, a refugee will often become an illegal immigrant as they seek a better life. Your definition seems to imply that everything would be just fine if these people stopped in Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey. Well, in case you haven't been following the news, that's exactly what's been happening for the last four years. The reasons that the problem is spilling over onto your doorstep now is that more and more people - almost a third of the former population now - are leaving Syria and making the conditions in the badly under-resourced camps increasingly difficult. While parents see a risk of their children receiving no decent education in that context for years to come, and no solutions in sight, they're taking their fate into their own hands and becoming "illegal immigrants". Do you think they throw themselves lightly into that "fucking rubber dinghy" to steal your hard-earned tax-euros?

Migrants have been moving in their millions from poor and strife-ridden countries towards wealthier ones forever. Between 1815 and 1932, 60 million Europeans emigrated to the "new world", which puts the current migrant crisis into some sort of context. So I'm not sure how your preferred use of language helps anything, except to attempt to stigmatise them.

You and I were quite lucky we didn't face a similar attitude when we chose to emigrate from the UK, weren't we?

I know the difference, your post clearly shows that you don't.

So, cutting through all the crap, you are saying that as the first country the refugees arrive in is a safe haven, then their wish not to stay there but head off to more wealthy safe havens automatically turns them into economic migrants rather than refugees.

Hard to disagree with that

ATM, there's a standoff in Denmark between migrants who fancy Sweden over Germany, but don't want to register in Denmark.

Yes however an economic migrant has various options and routes available to them to apply to enter the EU and other countries legally.

When people use all means possible, except the aforementioned legal means, to cross international borders they can only be described as illegal immigrants.

So, if 800,000 'refugees' are indeed accepted by Germany, does that then automatically entitle them to free movement within Europe?

Yes.

Difficult to say....as things stand a refugee in Germany must wait 8 years for citizenship....whereas in Sweden, they're giving Syrians citizenship as a priorlty.

I'd imagine the Germans may wish to change their law also.

The Dutch had always taken in large numbers of Somalis, giving them houses, bus passes, education etc, and eventually citizenship. so 20,000 or so upped sticks and moved here.  Their main gripe, the Dutch policy of trying to disperse them as a means of integration.

No...they are asylum seekers, because although Turkey signs up to the UN 1951 Refugee Convention, they did so with geographical limitations. This only applies to members of the Council of Europe. Given Syria isn't a member of the CoE, Syrians can't be given refugee status therefore they have to move onto a country which will grant them asylum.

Greece ?

Tell you what, fuck off and defend your own territory instead of causing mayhem in places you have no intention of assimalating into. Benefits shopping shows you up. Good luck to Hungary for slamming the door in these parasites faces.

Isn't it kind of these scumbags to put women and children first for a publicity shoot.

It's very easy to make 'compassionate' gestures and comments to make you feel good. Who is going to clear up your mess?

Evening dossy, been on the white lightning?

You're a little ray of sunshine, aren't you Dosser?

Further evidence that my "three consecutive uninterrupted posts and you're out" rule should be adopted.

Though to be fair, that would only ban Dosser.

Nowt wrong with that from what I've seen so far.

+1

Hit the nail right on the head, spot on.

You can drop the hob.

If the boot was on the other foot and Europeans had to run off to the middle east what sort of welcome do you think they would get? How many Churches in Saudi Arabia? I rest my case you twat.

Why are the refugees not stopping in Turkey, Greece, Slovenia,  Hungary, Serbia, Croatia? Can understand them escaping the awful situation back home, but what is the draw of Germany,  France etc?

You're not fooling me. I don't believe you're a lawyer.

A lot of the places you just listed either already have millions of refugees/migrants from the region escaping war or poverty or aren't letting them in. Hungary are using water cannons and pepper spray on them to stop them crossing the border. Had to watch a BBC reporter at the border when it kicked off and a refugee grabbed the camera to show what was happening families and babies getting caught up in all of it. Heartbreaking stuff.

They all seem to assume they can go wherever they please. World doesn't work like that, however. Germany and Sweden rolled out the welcome mat to all and sundry, let them deal with the consequences.

Apart from the 4 million or so currently living in tents in Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey.

So what you're saying is, we should be more like Saudi Arabia?

They're not fleeing Saudi Arabia you daft bastard. A significant amount of the ones fleeing Syria are Christians, and up until it was recently conquered, Aleppo had plenty of churches.

They are

The ones crossing about 6 different borders aren't.

Well, to take the example of four of the countries you cited, Kurds wouldn't want to seek sanctuary in Turkey as Turkey is currently vigorously engaged in a war with the Kurdish PKK (which it's pursuing far more enthusiastically than the war against IS, which it's until recently tacitly helped as they were also anti-Kurd) and hence regards all Kurds as potential terrorists. Likewise, given the recent(ish) history of the Balkans, it doesn't take a genius to work out why Muslim refugees wouldn't feel safe in Serbia or Croatia. And none of them can settle in Hungary because as has been very well documented over the past week or so, the Hungarians are fairly violently pushing refugees back - look at some of the scenes on TV of women and kids being battered and tear-gassed by riot cops and ask yourself if that's a "welcome" that would make you feel safe entrusting your family to those authorities?

Unfortunate as it is. The Balkans states historically have always been the defenders of Europe from the Marauding Muslim invaders.  Hungarians have been turned over before and they are not about to let it happen again. They are a proud Patriotic People. Fair play I say.

I see you omitted Greece, Paul.

Except these people aren't "marauding invaders". they're terrified refugees who are fleeing a brutal civil war.

Yeah I did. Sorry about that, you named 6 countries you thought refugees should be settling in and I gave a few examples off the top of my head as to why there are really good reasons why they might not be able to.

Yep, Of course they are.... Apart from the odd nutter throwing the rare baby in front of a camera for attention the make up of ages / sexes of these people has been calculated as the following. 80% men,  14 % women 6% children. All these terrified young fighting age men with the latest designer labels and mobile phones are not fooling me. I take the point there will be a few genuine refugees that have suffered terribly. And I have no problem in Europe helping with this. But a load of freeloaders jumping on this band wagon of human suffering is just not a good idea for us to get involved with. How comes they all seem to lose there passports. UHHH, just maybe there not Syrian or from any other war torn area. That is the real problem for the genuine refugees. The millions of cockroaches that just live off the misery of others to further there own gain. P.S. If your only propaganda on this is from the Bias Broadcasting Company or SKY you need to get out a bit more...

Designer labels and phones? They're escaping war, not the 18th century. Some of them were rich but have given up everything to travel somewhere that they're not in danger of being killed every day.

Some of the stuff you're saying makes it seem that you're reading a lot of FOX style news. THEY'RE COMING TO KILLS US I TELLS YOU!

If they are from the part of the world under ISIS / ISIL Control there actually escaping the 7th Century.....

Perhaps they should avoid northern Europe when you consider the amount of wars here over the years,  particularly Belgium.

They will bring there ware and hatred with them.
They will not integrate and assimilate.
Multiculturalism is so flawed and only survives on the back of the LEFTY SHOUTING POLITICAL CORRECT BRIGADE........

Im only entering in to this debate to give my opinion that the left brigade tend to be a little more reasoned than the shrieking right brigade on this matter.  The left are handwringing 'wont someone help types' not shouting 'THERE COMING TO TAKE OUR STUFFFFFF!' types.

You're right. Let them die. Bunch of twats. How dare they. We were born on this specific bit of land completely by luck. Who do they think they are thinking they can come here and breathe our air.

Like that time when the first fish crawled out of the sea onto OUR LAND. Total bastards.

I would imagine similar to the one that many of the influx into the UK will receive from those who have merrily said how welcome refugees are to this country when they find them moving into the neighbourhood. Don't under estimate the sheer hypocrisy of much of the British population between being seen to do something 'right' but then realising it directly affects them and their perceived property values.

The media continue to argue just how many are escaping war http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/reality-check/2015/sep/19/daily-mail-syrian-refugees-story-three-problems

Doesn't sound like they've got much to teach us about hatred.

Of all the TEF's lunatic episodes, I don't think I've seen a thread that's brought so much righteous frothing anger to the surface.

I love it when this argument gets trotted out to justify being a cunt. It's like saying it's okay to molest a paedophile's children, because he'd do the same to yours.

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: Oh, the fucking irony.

The war and hatred I refer to is the centuries old battle between Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims.
On top of that we more recently have the explosion impact of Wahhabi Muslims into the mix.
This is fundamentally the problem in Islam.

I would agree although I would have to say that the righteous bollocks have flowed freely from both sides of the argument - whilst in the middle a lot of people have quietly gone about doing the right thing, just not felt the need to make a song and dance about it on social media!

The frothing anger has all been on one side though.

The point being argued was that huge numbers were migrating for purely economic reasons and other countries weren't picking up the slack (in short).

Tis utterly ignores the fact that millions of people are currently displaced into the main 3 bordering countries (including Turkey as it happens).  The thousands coming through Europe are those crazy/lucky enough to have escaped completely, the much bigger crisis is located directly around the worn torn region.  The other asylum seekers are coming from other worn torn areas, some of which we've directly created.

I don't have a problem discussing the situation openly, but the perception that "they" are all "flooding" into "our lands" is way off the mark.  A very small minority have managed to flee, quite probably those that had something to barter with people traffickers no doubt.  If we had a situation where 50% of the UK population were forced to flee these lands, would we all stop in France? and would France take all of us?

I think Horlock is referring to the Bob Geldof's of this world, suggesting we should all be giving up a bed.

Sort of, I was referring to the blatant cock waving that has gone on on all sides, 'look I have changed my Facebook Status/profile photo to refugees welcome', 'I think I will drive to Calais and deliver clothes' 'here are selfies of me on the march in London because I really care - or you could have just sent the c.£300 the train tickets cost to a charity who will actually feed and help those in need, but that wouldn't let us all know how humanitarian you are so thanks for telling us with evidence' and other self righteous crap that is for watchers benefits rather than actually helping the people who need help.

There has been frothing on both sides from the Britains First shite (the homeless and former service people have never been so supported although I suspect that this has not been reflected in 'real help'), to the abuse that those who dared to disagree with what 'society and the Twitterati' have decided is right have received.

The only people who have come out of this with any credit are those who have quietly done something but not felt the need to make it into some manner of statement about how bloody marvelous they are!

Don't get me started on Geldof - has he taken those families in yet? I suspect not but no problem he got the required press coverage of his statement.

 Of course, historically there have been many occasions when mass migration from the British Isles has occured, although some will have gone to Europe, the majority will have headed for North America, and the Antipodes.

 These migrations happened because of economic depression, political decisions and famine.  Sadly the recipient territories were not strong enough to resist the cultural pressures and so became consigned to history.....rather like the fall of the  Roman Empire ushered in a long period of cultural regression,  badly named the Dark Ages.

 I think for many people there is a sense that our culture is under threat.....

What fucking culture? Drinking till we puke and casual racism?

Go back far enough and there isn't an indigenous culture on this little island at all.

I'm sure the Welsh and Scots wouldn't agree there - but they haven't really seen the influx of immigrants on the scale of England.

It is very difficult to really say what being 'English' constitutes. Maybe a reason for that is over the years the English have been made to feel guilty of expressing any notion of nationhood.

Culturally I regard myself as broadly European....a product of Judaeo Christianity and The Enlightment.  Within this framework, there are of course differences which have brought about different results across Europe...this would be where the British/English thing kicks in.

Principle, here would be the scism between Catholic and Protestantism.....and the impact it had on philosophy,  science and art.

I would suppose that the Scots, Irish and, to a lesser extent, the Welsh fell back on their traditions after being subjugated by the English.

No doubt we would have done something similar if Germany had done us in 1939-45.

Dust off the maypole!

So getting smashed and knocking down a bathroom door don't count?

Can't quite see what you are on about there, they won't help their neighbours out but are quite willing to support ISIS because they share the same strand of Islam, they go around butchering fellow Muslims and causing them to flee to Europe and then have the brass neck to offer to pay to build some mosques for them. Can you not see what is going on here?

What the fuck has that got to do with pedophiles?

Too many straw man pushers on here for my liking at times...........

On behalf of the reasonable majority of posters I hereby declare you to be a cunt.

I assume that was aimed at me. Many Thanks. An accolade I can now wear proudly with all you other cunts on this Forum  :)

How have you made it to adulthood without understanding what an analogy is?

It's paedophile, anyway.

The use of analogies used in an argument is a tactic that a person uses when they realise they are not intelligent or informed enough to win the argument.

1. Person A. Lets discuss something very specific. ( Call this the topic of the discussion / argument )
2. Person B. That does not suit my agenda so I will introduce an analogy.
3. Person B. All smug that you cannot refute my analogy which absolutely has nothing to do with the original Topic.
4. To outsiders not paying to much attention it appears Person B has won the argument when in fact all that has happened is Person B has changed the parameters to suit themselves.

This is known in debating as straw man tactics. Politicians do it all the time.............

If you're going to try and sound clever by pointing out logical fallacies, at least get them right.

It was actually a direct rebuttal of his suggestion that certain treatment of people is acceptable, because that's what we'd get if we fled to Saudi Arabia.

I wasn't shooting down an imaginary argument, I was using an extreme analogy to show why his argument is morally repugnant. You should probably read up on straw man again btw.

Jayo probably said it better anyway when he asked, so you want us to be like Saudi Arabia? It's the same point, made differently.

On the flip side of the coin.
If you are going to try and sound clever by saying that I am wrong about something, please point out why ...........

i.e. Dont just say "Get them right" explain why I am wrong.

Using an analogy is not a strawman.

A strawman is misrepresenting somebody's argument and then using that misrepresentation to attack them with, inferring it's something the opponent said. Nobody is trying to say that anybody actually said it's OK for pedo's to molest children.... it was just an analogy.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

Amir,
I am agreeing with you that hobnobs original post about "Europeans being Welcome in Saudi" or not as he is suggesting is a stupid thing to say.
Your extreme "paedophile" analogy on top of that no did infuriate me a bit.

I think we all need to get back to the original Topic.

https://youtu.be/PWKS3uUBfv4

Unless you're referring to the delicious chocolate and hazelnut snack so beloved of my childhood, I think you mean "topic". But if you did mean "Topic", bring it on, they were really nice.

Wasn't a big fan of topics. I preferred a marathon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvOnXh3NN9w

Think this video sums things up quite well. And informatively.

Do you prefer throwing gays off buildings and making women second class citizens ?
Grow up you twat

As long as it's done in the summer and the mud's not too cold

I fucking hate this thread.

Now THAT is a strawman fallacy. A clear misrepresentation of Jayo's post which is then used to attack the opponent with, inferring that that is what he would prefer. Also, of course, preferring to throw gays off buildings and mysogyny is a lot harder to defend than the original statement.

Plus an adhominem fallacy thrown in for good measure.

Well done, classy stuff.

Hear hear!

Just gives an excuse for abuse

Indeed - this issue along with the emergence of Jeremy Corbyn seems to have turned many people on all sides of the political spectrum into abusive and self righteous pricks.

Is there nothing Jeremy Corbyn doesnt get the blame for?

I think the mods on here are dictorial to the extreme.

Its not his fault that many of his supporters seem to suffer aggression problems with those who dare to disagree with him - I personally blame Diane Abbott.

Ha ha.

Fuck me, this place is soft. There's not even any rules.

Isn't there just the one, you don't talk about TheTownEnd...

There are only two rules:
1. No arguing with the mods
2. Obey all the rules

People argue with the mods all the time, you're making shit up. Actually, you're arguing with me now. Maybe I should just ban you right now? Or no because we don't do that around here..... because you just made it up.

What the fuck has bought this on anyway? Off on a bit of a tangent from the thread, isn't it?

You smell, Flashheart.

(http://i.imgur.com/o08b9qP.jpg)

Ouch, that's cutting.  ;)

 :D

To be honest, the mods seems to like arguing the toss more than anybody.

Yeah, I'm easy going in the extreme

He's a banning denier now. The internets knows...

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/46/46a281f5d075216370444f4fc79fa0ecd1f979b7b5e0671acbe4c8d2a6617ab3.jpg)

No we don't

Yes you do.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Essentially what you're saying is don't single them out because we're all a bunch of moaning cunts.

 :beers:

Pitchforks at the ready  :)

Be honest FH, you enjoy a bit of cage rattling.  ;)

I'm more concerned by the banning of denier, It's cold out, I need my tights on!

I don't always agree with people, if they take offence to that then that's their problem.

Fuck it, some of you just like something to whinge about. As you where.

Were, it's were.  :)

Liar!

(http://i.imgur.com/c7GMV4O.jpg)


(http://i.imgur.com/mOTLk7g.jpg)

Ha ha. I didn't know about that!

I'm curious as to what usernames were being used that made that warning a necessity :D

Actually, there isn't much arguing - what it is is difference of opinions and the problem is that some think their opinion is more valid or worthy than someone else's.

No one is wrong and no one is right. Take this thread - if someone says 'No, I don't want any more here' against someone who says 'Yes, we should take these people in' neither stance is right or wrong.

As long as things don't end up with personal abuse, there is no problem. Or, at least, there shouldn't be.

Forums, essentially, allow people to be arseholes.

Its OK, I was on about a 19th Century French coin.

I've read or posted on a few forums through the years, and the thing that seems to bring out the worst in people isn't football, or politics, or even religion........It's money. The abuse and threats on financial forums are unbelievable at times.

I'm sure others will have had much different experiences however.

I'm active on theological debate groups and death threats are a common occurrence.

Yeah look at the pelters Batch has just given Ells on a numismatic trifle.

Out of interest, do non-believers ever make death threats?

Occasionally, yes. They can even go as far as to wish death upon all believers.

I prefer to 'play' with the atheists more so than theists. They tend not to expect to be challenged so much and become even more frustrated when challenged by another atheist, especially when their flawed logic is being called into question. I had an atheist threaten me with death once for pointing out the gaping holes in his arguments.

Is that like a sherry trifle?

Nah, more like a Christmas pudding.

Financial Forums?

Bet they are a right laugh

Stock market forums, to be more correct.

I've realised since that post that it's the childishness that really gets me, although there are threats too. People are such babies when they're losing money.

I suspect they do, the non-believers I know are considerably more obsessed with religion than any of the religious people I know!

Really? You must know a select few then because most atheists I know are apathetic to it all, and I know a lot of atheists. In fact, I debate the issue in specific debate rooms only because nobody else is interested. Plus, of the atheists that I do know that enjoy the debate, they too stick just to debating groups because the people in their lives are also not fussed. Not back home in the UK nor here in Thailand..... they just don't care.

I know its weird...

I am at best Agnostic (frankly I have more important things to worry about) and have no interest. However I have married into a comparatively religious family and my wife believes but is not practicing. We never talk about religion, it just doesn't come up.

Group of friends are all university educated, middle class (although would deny this to the hilt) and its all they ever bloody discuss when we see them, the only time I ever hear religion mentioned is with them!

It may just be the groups I move in but I had assumed that was the way it is, it has made me see religion being the immigration for the left leaning liberal i.e. addressing the human need to have a bogeyman to blame all of ones ails on.

I've become a little obsessed with it since moving out here, seeing how the Christians prey on people, particularly children. I didn't really think about it in England.

The question wasn't about that anyway, it was about what can drive people to make death threats.

I am not sure where 'here' is, however that is one of the ironies of it all is the great efforts being made to get the kids into the local C of E school as its the 'best' and then making sure you tell the kids its all bollocks when they come home because that isn't going to confuse them!

If you don't want your kids to grow up religious don't send them to a religious school, or let them make their own minds up?

I just don't get it!

In terms of what can drive people to make death threats, in this era of internet keyboard warriors - just about anything!

I've had some sniffing around my daughter lately. Offering to give her 'English lessons', only to find out on further investigation that the 'lessons' are all about Jeebus etc. Cheeky cunts. These are the Filipino Roman catholic variety that tend to go full on with the 'jeebus lubs you' crap. They've been told 'no', hopefully that should be that. 

Cambodia. Most Christians are 'rice' Christians, who say they believe to get food then just carry on as before :) The bribery part does repulse me though, especially when they bribe children with education.

You're right enough about the internet. My question wasn't particularly well phrased, to be honest.

It's one of the quirks of the education system that we have faith schools in the UK....I'd abolish them. 

Originally, the C of E would help fund the developing compulsory education system and would have a certain amount of input, depending whether Contolled or Aided.

Of course, this led to the Catholics having their own schools...something which has never been a major problem in England, but not great in NI.

The Jews then claimed the same rights....but you don't get many Jewish schools outside London and they keep their heads down.

Now the Muslims have joined in, and you can see with things like the Birmingham Trojan horse schools, it's not desirable state of affairs.

Religion and education should be separate. You do have the odd good example of faith shools like the C of E primary I went to as a lad, but other than in PSRE lessons the twain shouldn't meet.

Isn't religion about believing everything you are told? Who on here believes everything they are told?   :sherlock: