Thetownend.com

......apparently the clubs informal proposals are now before Councillors..waiting to be thrown out.

  They involve rotating the pitch 90, and the Nationwide would be the only thing retained as an end......Sandy Gray says she sees no problems.

  Possibly in the same way she saw no VAT to be paid.

Portsmuff have started work on their stadium, doing the same, turning the pitch 90degrees.



We shall see i guess. Its a nice thought that this club could finally drag itself into some kind of financial stability... but that seems a bit far off yet.

It makes sense really the Nationwide is the only decent stand.

That would be newest stand.

yes, yes it would be...

Can we see the proposals at all or any more info Reginald?

Isn't nationwide a bit long to be an end stand?

Something like Charlton's New Valley redevelopment I suspect, which is no bad thing.

http://www.cafc.co.uk/uploads/charlton22347news1.jpg

Yes, they're gonna chop it in half and put one half up the other end  :P

I always thought the best solution was to rotate the pitch, so that The Nationwide Stand becomes a goal end. Lets be realistic here its the only decent stand at our ground currently. When I heard that we might just give a low level roof for Stratton Bank, rebuild The Town End and give The Arkell's Stand a lick of paint and new seats I thought to myself its going to be 'half hearted' attempt to modernize the stadium. The idea of building 3 new stands makes more viable business sense. For a start it will be 'purpose built' instead of utilizing what we already have. I imagine Stratton Bank being moved closer towards The Town End linking up with The Nationwide with a roof at last. I doubt it will be as high as TNS due to the houses behind but high enough for the whole new stand to house 5,000 at a wild guess with TNS perhaps being reduced slightly to about 4,000. The new Town End Stand would probably become the new main stand and 'curve' around to where The Arkell's Stand currently is albeit quite a bit further back, possibly as far as on to the cricket pitch. Again I'm guessing this whole new structure would have a capacity of about 11,000 seats making the new look CG have an overall capacity of approx 20,000 which I think is more than ample. Of course this is all my own opinions and i'm sure everyone else has their own which I'd like to hear. Lets just hope that STFC, The Council, The local MP's and local residents can work together to give our Town an asset to be proud of, not just for football but for other leisure facilities too because for a town the size of Swindon we really have very little to offer the community.

Here here

reg, do you mean that the nationwide would be completley untouched and preserved as a behind the goal stand? i really hope this isnt the case because that would suggest that the stands will be some distance from the pitch as with most new stadia. I dont like this idea because creating bigger gaps between the pitch + stands reduces the atmosphere. if i was designing the stadium id have it as tight as legally possible! so people can literally touch the players!

I predict Ifil will be top scorer if they do-he loves kicking it into that end!

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Nah, just because they are keeping the Nationwide doesnt mean they can move it.....would take alot of work but I bet it could be done somehow

 I've no idea what it might entail.....I know that the Nationwide is built in units , which theoretically could be unbolted and built again elsewhere, or perhaps it could be shortened.

This might help enlighten the discussion - it's the text of the article that was in Saturday's Adver. Bearing in mind previous "It will be like this" articles that appeared re Front Garden, Shaw etc, I'd take it with large pinches of salt.

"Is County Ground on the move?

15th August 2005

EXCITING new plans for Swindon Town’s County Ground will see the stadium turned by 90 degrees.

Senior councillors say the football club’s redevelopment plans are exciting but challenging and will need support from a lot of groups.

And they are taking legal and financial advice on whether the proposals are viable before any details are made public.

Coun Justin Tomlinson (Con, Abbey Meads), lead member for leisure, culture and recreation, was part of the informal cabinet group which saw the plans.

“Personally I am pleased that the football club has been listening and the plans that we are now looking at are reflecting the meetings that we have had with councillors, community groups and partners like the New Swindon Company,” he said.

“The plans in my mind are both very exciting, complicated and challenging.

“There are a lot of groups who will need to support these plans for them to come to fruition and I will be doing all I can to make sure the process continues along swiftly.”

No members of the cabinet or the football club would be drawn on the detail of the plans but it is believed that they do not differ greatly from the vision revealed in January this year which included a hotel, conference centre, housing and retail facilities.

The main change is the football pitch being turned by 90 degrees. It is believed that the Nationwide stand would be the only one to be retained.

But full details will not even be released to all councillors until the authority has taken advice on whether the plans are viable.

“We are trying to ascertain if the ideas financially stack up and if it is legally possible for the council to do what they want us to do,” said Coun Tomlinson.

The council and the club are both keen to avoid a repeat of the scenes last year when residents came out in protest against plans to a new stadium at Shaw.

If the advice is positive the plans will then be circulated to all councillors.

And the football club is not unduly worried by the issues the council is checking on.

“They are not major stumbling blocks,” said chief executive Sandy Gray.

“I think we can get over them and start working together.”

In Tuesday’s match programme Mrs Gray wrote that she hoped the ‘long-awaited’ redevelopment could start in the close season next year.

Yesterday she admitted that was an ambitious target but said the club needed to make progress on the redevelopment.

“We are excited about the future plans for the club,” she said.

“We all want to work together to redevelop the stadium and improve facilities for the people of Swindon.

“I see the club as being the gateway to Swindon.”

Pie in the sky methinks....

To be honest I can see it as a good thing. If we did this and say that we did have a capacity of 20,000. At the start it would be shit because we don't create a great atmosphere anyway. But IF we managed to make a success of this then we could actually run a profitable club, at the least breaking even. If we were to make this happen then not at the start admittedly but we could slowly reduce ticket prices. Also if we were to manage to make a profit we could give the manager money to spend, hopefully this would transfer into success on the pitch bringing in more fans. This can only work though if it is done in a good efficien proffessional manner. This is not something that I have come to expect from Swindon Town recently tho. And although all these plans seem good in theory I can't actually see us pulling it off. We also have to remember that we don't even own the ground.

  This is the key point.....the whole scheme is dependent on the disaster area which is Swindon Borough Council......so its highly unlikely to ever happen.

  What should concern us as fans is the fallout from this.....because the Board have made their position clear......

To be honest with the exception of SSW I get the impression that for certain members (including the odd unofficial board member) that has been the position all along.

Hopefully if things get moving one of the key brokers will hopefully be attaining a reduction in the rent from the council.  If the club has the sense to go down the community facility path as Hull City have done with the Kingston Communications stadium then the development acquires the shiny tag of ‘community facility’ and it no longer becomes a limited companies private concern.

In theory this would allow the SBC to make a contribution to the development with public funds.  Something they ruled out some time ago, but it would allow them to cap the rent at a nice low figure without it being a conflict of interest.

 Are you implying that Mickey D, wants this scheme to fail?

Well this is swindon and this will be all talk and no action as usuall

Haven't Colchester council just lumped in £10 million of public money for their team

Probably every other council lumps in money for their teams and ours are luky to get a fiver !!!

No, but I don't think he's here for purely for the love of the beautiful game.

Can't see him hanging around if the stadium plans get booted.

Just read the article in a bit more depth having just skimmed it at work and a couple of interesting quotes in there...



Interesting to see the New Swindon Company get a mention.  Any speculation as to what sort of involvement they might have?  Certainly sits within the scope of their mission statement.

http://www.newswindon.co.uk/



Presuming ‘they’ is referring to the club I wonder what exactly the club are looking for from the council.  The financial aspect surely points to a degree of investment, possibly linking back to the New Swindon Company?   The legal side I’d hazard a guess may be something to do with ownership of the site.  If the council are going to relinquish control of the site, which they own in any sort of capacity then they would have to justify it to be in the interest of the tax payer.

Maybe putting two and two together but making a tentative presumption I’d say that the club have kicked St Mowden into touch.  That may well be linked in with the 750k invested by SSW a few weeks ago after he had claimed that he would not pump any more money into the club.  That cash would then be used to pay back the loan from  St Mowden.  

If that’s true then it looks like the club may well be heading for a Hull City style Kingston Communications development.  

http://www.kcstadium.co.uk/feature.asp?catid=10&subcatid=1

The grass is 100% natural, comprised of 90% sand and 10% loam.  It also has 3% additive of man-made fibre. - is that not 103%?

25% football 80% bollocks.

and surely not 100% natural, if its got 10% 'loam' (what the fuck is that?) and 3% man-made fibre...

You put loam on a cricket pitch, dunno why though.

Well I guess this is positive news.

I know I am going to sound negative, but if St M have bailed, is this an initiative by our own board, or is a new developer waiting in the wings. I think St Mowden had bigger plans to include housing so I can see where their revenue ideas came from. Any idea what else besides a new stadium we are proposing in order to make £££?

Hope it comes off, from what has been said it HAS to.

Phew, there's a lot in here, Dazzza.  :shock:

See if I can shine a bit of light on anything...

It may be in their Mission Statement , but The New Swindon Company's remit does not stretch as far as the County Ground. It doesn't even cover Broad Street/Manchester Road or anywhere East of the Hartwell Ford site on Whale Bridge roundabout.  This is part of their Mem and Arts in terms of their brief, so it's kinda unlikely that they are going to have any stake in the County Ground redevelopment. Having said that, there are pressures from other organisations in the town to get them to expand their sphere of influence. Like getting the university campus back into their area which is partly why they got their funding in the first place. The club are certainly another legitimate lobbying group. As are the Trust, SBC etc.

Realistically, there will not be any funding from either the NSC or Swindon Borough Council. NSC are struggling to get money out of their formal partner organisations like English Partnerships to buy more plots in the town centre (like the old cop shop, Fleming Way Post Office etc). SBC are just plain fucking broke anyway. They would love to sell off the CG site to another landlord/developer because flogging off the town's assets is what they do best and also props up the budget. So I think you are right about the legal side of things - as in they can only sell of the plot at market value and have to check how much that should be.

I also think that you are definitely right about St Modwen. They're too busy licking their lips over the Longbridge site to give a monkey's about the trivial Swindon investment. And it wasn't a £750k loan by the way - they bought the debenture on the club's assets, which I also assume is what SSW has just bought back. That still leaves St M holding some of his personal property as a guarantee though If my balance sheet brain is still functioning correctly.

Please try writing shorter posts in future and stop thinking so much. You hurt my head.

Cheers, TalkTalk cleared a few things up.

I did recall Mark Devlin on the BBC stating that the club wouldn't have to pay a penny back on the money from St Modwen if the Shaw site went belly up.

I suppose purchasing the debenture against the clubs assets is just as good as, mind.

Do you still think we are looking at one of the two developers reported to be 'waiting in the wings' a few months back to cough up the cash?

I think the bowl at Shaw was budgeted at about the 20 million mark.  Clearly there must be some big money involved if it is to be funded by a development company even with the reduced area for housing and commercial development with the CG remaining on site.

Don't know about developers waiting in the wings Dazzza, but it definitely won't be Swindon Borough Council stumping up any dosh, as I mentioned above:

Swindon Advertiser

Date Published: Tuesday 16 August 2005

Backer needed for ground plan

by Tom Morton

THE man holding Swindon Council's purse strings says he cannot see the County Ground being rebuilt unless Swindon finds a major backer.

Coun Nick Martin (Con, Shaw and Nine Elms) is one of the cabinet members of Swindon Council who has seen the plans, which were reported in Saturday's Advertiser.

However, although he cannot disclose what is in the report, he says that any decision to redevelop the County Ground would have to be taken carefully as it would be the council or the club that would have to fund the improvements.

Other sources have suggested that the new plans include building houses on the green land surrounding the County Ground ­ and are similar to plans revealed at the end of last year.

The official line is that the council is examining the viability and legality of the plans, and until that has been assessed only a limited number of people in the council's cabinet and at the football club will see the plans.

Coun Martin said he is a supporter of Swindon Town ­ and wants the team to do well.

But he said: "We have got many responsibilities in the borough such as schools and the central library.

"To my knowledge there is no suggestion that the club no major backer or £20m to spend at the moment, and the council has no policy to do so at this juncture."

In order for the club to fund an improved stadium money would need to be raised. This could come from a backer ­ such as the council or a wealthy third party, as has happened in Reading with John Madejski. The alternative would be for the council and the club to sell off their assets, which could include the land surrounding the County Ground, to developers, who could build houses, a hotel, or other complex.

But Coun Martin also said that, in theory, he would find it hard to be able to justify selling off land. He said: "We could not sell the land off for sports pitch value and then give planning approval for houses." The council has been stung by plans for new stadiums before, and Coun Martin said that developers have often broached the subject of a land deal involving the club.

Town chief executive Sandy Gray has said that she cannot see any stumbling blocks to the development.

The club has said in the past that finding a new home or redeveloping the County Ground is crucial to its survival.

Why is our council never going to actually spend money on helping the club, when in other areas they seem to get right behind stadium plans etc.  Are they really that broke, or do they just have no real interest?

Both. But to be fair when we've got one of the worst social services departments in the country, they're slashing 10 million of the services budget, and closing schools down left right and centre, it's be pretty hard for them to justify putting 20 million into a private business. If Nick Martin's comments accurately reflect what the club are proposing, then the club need to rethink them slightly - with an element of "community ownership" the whole thing becomes a much more viable proposition as then the council would not be giving money/assets to a private business but supporting a local community facility.

I guess that makes a bit of sense.

Hopefully there is a nice backer waiting in the wings for planning permission and approval to be given?  Although i seriously doubt it.

Reading Martin's statement that, is all you need to do to know this will never happen.

  We also know that the Board have stated, in effect, the club in its present form will cease to be if that is the case.

  I would like to see the Trust try and enter into some kind of talks with the Board, if they haven't already done so, on what may happen, when the Councillors like Martin fire this into touch.

I can honestly see swindon town being formed into swindon supermarine in a few years time.  Marine have some large backers now and I think are only 4/5 divisions from us?

  I think its a possibility, but I'd rather see the option of theclub being run by the Trust as is now the case at a number of clubs....

  This may require an act of good wiil from SSW,  and the finding of 1 mill for the CVA......so don't ask me how either of these events is likely to happen, just I'd rather see it than moving out to Hunt's Copse.

We are Reg. And we're also doing a lot of "background" work in terms of talking to councillors (of all parties) and other interested groups to try and establish where the contentious areas are, and what can be done to overcome them (if anything) so that hopefully we can act as a bridge between all relevant parties to modify the proposals so they are acceptable to all. Of course, we're not miracle workers - all we can do is try and find reasonable compromises - if either side won't budge or the proposals just don't stack up, then we can't magic a solution, but we're doing our best to avoid the "illogical meeting the immovable" situation we had over Shaw.

I said in the paper these plans were: exciting, complicated and challenging...

Exciting - 20 000 all seater stadium, plus hotel, conference facilities - excellent!  Come on Swindon!

Complicated - in a nutshell, if STFC had Jack Walker, things would be a lot easier.  For the scheme to work, so many things will have to fall into place.  Firstly the finance needs to be raised (STFC as we all know, have limited funds themselves), complicated legal issues need to be dealt with (ie, with the ownership of the land and the covenant etc).

Challenging - presuming the finance can be sorted, local residents, the athletics, cricket clubs etc all need to be on board.

so in a nutshell councillor, its not gonna happen????

So basically, there's very little chance of this being a success?  :(

How much would it cost in reality to buy out the clubs current directors and more importantly the debts...?

Reg may know this if he has the accounts to hand, ive got mine somewhere?

  Can you ever see this getting to the planning stage, because I can't, therefore I think its imperative, that questions about the short term viability of the club  up to CVA day 2007 need to be thought through.

 If as stated the CVA will only be met if a development plan is happening, then International Rescue needs to be called.......does the Trust have a contingency plan?

I guarantee he will not answer that directly reg

Yep, you're right. In the very nature of the context, clearly I can't, as if we did have such a plan (and I'm not saying we do) it would have to be confidential.

But contigency plans are for disaster recovery. Let's not get too doom-laden at this stage of the game - at the moment the focus is very much on doing whatever we can to make the proposal for redeveloping the County Ground work for fans, the club and the town.

You should become an MP pauld

  I'll take that as a no then.

in all honesty are sbc genuinally interested in this? or is just vote winning appeasment? an honest answer would be most welcome

Take it how you like! Like I say, let's focus on trying to get this plan right and get it through before we assume it will fail.

Bit of both. Some councillors are genuinely interested in the future of STFC and get the "big picture" of what a loss the club would be to the town if it goes tits-up or moves out of the borough; some couldn't give a monkeys one way or another but don't want the club as tenants any more because they've not had the best track record in paying their bills; and all of them will say whatever will get them good coverage in the Adver ;-)

At the end of the day we don't stand a fucking chance. Anything and everything we try to do gets quashed. We have been talking about stadium redevelopment or a new stadium for 20 years and I have given up on even getting slightly optomistic about anything that includes talk of the club actually getting something positive out of it. In recent memory we were going to build the new stadium near the M4, but they managed to find some special newts. At the end of the day who gives a fucking toss about newts. Then we have the Shaw Ridge idea, this got chucked out by the council almost immediately. This is a wonderful conservation sight apparently.

These plans will never go ahead because turning the pitch 90 degrees means the what now is the Stratton Bank stand will be a main stand and that will never happen because of those dicks who live behind it. That is that I am afraid.

On another note in this town there are to many NIMBY people. Why don't you just fuck off!

 In the interests of fair play, it should be pointed out that the Council gave Brady everything he asked for.....it was nothing to do with newts.....he wanted the land on the cheap the council can't do this....they were prepared to sell at the going rate....Brady cleared off when he couldn't cut the deal.....had he stuck around work could have started soon on his project.

Sounds about right.

To be fair, if the initial financial plans don't stack up, the club could potentially explore other ways to fund the scheme.  (Which is what Cllr Martin is referring to in the Advertiser today.)

Do I think it will happen - yes, because the scheme in the long run is a winner, (for the club, and commercially), it is just a question of how it is financed in the first place.

The more the club can pay themselves, the more of the cake they can keep.  It might be, they have to get other people on board.  (Which is what St. Modwen were doing).