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80% => The Nevillew General Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Samdy Gray on Friday, July 31, 2009, 11:44:24



Title: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, July 31, 2009, 11:44:24
Now, I don't normally like to get involved in political discussions on here, but this newest tax is just plain fucking ridiculous.

If your employer provides you with a parking space, you will now be charged £250 a year to park at your place of work. Technically the government will charge your employer, but they are free to pass the cost on.

Quote
The country’s first “workplace parking levy” will come into force in Nottingham in 2012 and is likely to be adopted by other councils.

Under the scheme, any firm with 11 or more staff parking spaces will be charged £250 a year for each. That cost could rise to £350 within two years.

Employers would be free to pass the cost on to their staff. An estimated 40,000 commuters in Nottingham drive to work and some businesses have threatened to leave the area if the scheme is introduced.

Business associations oppose the extra cost, which has been put at more than £3 billion if it were rolled out nationwide. About 10 million people in Britain drive to work every day.

Councils in Milton Keynes, Exeter, Cambridge and Oxford have expressed interest in the scheme.

The Core Cities Group, which represents Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol, Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle and Sheffield, has also expressed interest, identifying the levy's “congestion-busting” potential.

The scheme will be endorsed by Sadiq Khan, the transport minister, during a visit to Nottingham on Friday.

The Government has explored a number of initiatives to cut urban traffic, pollution and carbon emissions.

It was forced to back away from a national pay-as-you-drive road pricing scheme because of public opposition but hoped to persuade cities to adopt local schemes such as congestion charging.

The AA described the latest scheme as a “tax on jobs”. “It is very unfair — discriminating against those employers who have parking spaces, which gets vehicles off the street,” said a spokesman.

“These tariffs apply around the clock, which is especially unfair on shift workers who rely on their cars because public transport is not available.

“This is more about generating a revenue stream than reducing congestion and will require snooping to enforce it properly.”

Nottingham believed that the levy would raise £100 million over the next decade, just under one fifth of the cost of a new urban tram scheme.

The British Chambers of Commerce gave warning that it could cost companies £3.4 billion a year if every English council followed Nottingham’s example.

Theresa Villiers, the Tory transport spokesman, accused the Government of hitting businesses with new taxes.

“At a time when jobs are under threat and businesses are under huge pressure, it is wrong to hit enterprise in Nottingham with a workplace parking levy,” she said. “These new charges will be a real blow to the city and we oppose them.”

However, the move was welcomed by environmental groups.

Richard Hebditch, of the Campaign for Better Transport, said the levy would raise money to invest in transport improvements.

“It has the added benefit of tackling unnecessary commuter journeys, one of the main causes of congestion,” he said. “Failing to deal with the causes of congestion is simply not an option.

“We put forward the idea of workplace parking levies as a fairer way to raise money to invest in the future of local transport services. We are pleased that the people of Nottingham will be the first to benefit.”

A Department for Transport spokesman said it was “entirely for local authorities to decide what measures are appropriate” for improving transport and tackling congestion in their area.

“Workplace parking levy schemes may be introduced only if they will contribute to the achievement of local transport policies, and all revenues must be reinvested in local transport,” he said.

Although the Department for Transport backed the application, it has imposed a two-year delay. It is understood that ministers felt that it would be wrong, in the current economic climate, to start the project next year as had been originally planned.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/5942306/Motorists-to-pay-250-tax-for-parking-at-work.html


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Batch on Friday, July 31, 2009, 11:59:52
Ridiculous isn't it. Just another way of stealth taxing under the 'green' labour.  So you pay extra to park on land the company already owns, driving a car that is already taxed, using petrol that is taxed.

I guess 'green' is the marketing tool de jour mind. How many companies really care about their carbon footprints, or recycling or organic whatever just to save the planet. Very few. But it's selling things so lets all jump on the bandwagon.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Barry Scott on Friday, July 31, 2009, 12:01:55
Our Country's ace.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: DerbyRed on Friday, July 31, 2009, 12:02:45
Its ridiculous!

Am I right in thinking they are also planning to introduce hikes in council tax if you live in a house with a 'nice view' or did I dream that???

What a load of crap!  


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: RJack on Friday, July 31, 2009, 12:04:24
No wonder so many people emigrating from this country.

Yet another tax that will be passed through our wage packets eventually sending the average employee into poverty.

It's about time the whole govermental system was restructered because none of these clowns know there arses from their elbows and that's any party.



Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: DerbyRed on Friday, July 31, 2009, 12:08:19
In answer to my own question:   ::)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertynews/5912420/Council-tax-revaluation-could-penalise-homes-with-a-view.html


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Summerof69 on Friday, July 31, 2009, 12:09:11
This is a absolute joke. This is in the end going to cost jobs, end of. And, in a years time, thet are also increasing NI contributions, just as we're in the middle of a recession.

Labour are doing their best to becoming unelectable ever again.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Jamiesfuturewife on Friday, July 31, 2009, 12:19:40
what the hell???? In the past week Ive just paid My Insurance, MOT, Service and Road tax - just 2 new Tyres and brakes and discs left!!!

I simply could not afford to pay any more monrey out on my car


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 31, 2009, 12:29:59
what the hell???? In the past week Ive just paid My Insurance, MOT, Service and Road tax - just 2 new Tyres and brakes and discs left!!!

I simply could not afford to pay any more monrey out on my car

Having a car isn't compulsory...if you can't afford it, then get rid.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Jamiesfuturewife on Friday, July 31, 2009, 12:32:43
sorry Reg!

I NEED a car and make myself afford it

wow I feel like a naughty schoolgirl!  :-[


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Simon Pieman on Friday, July 31, 2009, 12:39:09
The green argument is always poor. For instance a lot of the tax rates are based on CO2 emissions which is not a pollutant.






Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 31, 2009, 12:43:11
sorry Reg!

I NEED a car and make myself afford it

wow I feel like a naughty schoolgirl!  :-[

Fair enough, but car ownership has only been around for about 60 years of all of human history and is still probably only within the range of a minority of world's population.

 Will it last another 60 years?


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Simon Pieman on Friday, July 31, 2009, 12:44:21
Yeah definitely, we'll have hydrogen fuelled cars by then.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 31, 2009, 12:49:43
Yeah definitely, we'll have hydrogen fuelled cars by then.

40 years ago, I thought STFC win more major trophies and space travel would become routine....neither happened  :(


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: pumbaa on Friday, July 31, 2009, 12:58:24
That'll drive the posties out on strike for starters.........

In all seriousness though, the incentives to get people out of their cars as part of the daily commute have to be far greater than those currently on offer. I live in WSM and work in Bristol. I have the option to drive or take the train. So as an example.

1. Driving. Naturally, I have to buy a car, tax & insure it, maintain it, which costs money. But I can use my car for other purposes, like shopping (yuk), visiting family and friends, and even going to football......no shit sherlock. OK, so you have to take account of capital asset depreciation and such like into any calculations. It takes me 35 minutes to get to work, and depending on what time I leave, approximately 40 minutes to get home. Weather conditions don't matter too much (obviously excepting snow, but that applies equally to rail) as I'm comfortable whatever the climate, and I always get a seat. The biggest problem is traffic, particularly unpredictable on a summer Friday afternoon with tourists heading to the South West.

2. Train. Luckily I only have a 10 minute walk to the nearest station, but to get me in the office before 0800, I have to leave home before 0700. The train I catch is busy with commuters to central Bristol, so its hit and miss if I get a seat. The rolling stock is shite, most of the seats are broken or have been vandalised by thugs. Also having long legs, they aren't the most comfortable. Luckily the other end, the station is right by my office, so it takes me about 7 minutes to get from the train to my desk. Overall, my journey time is over 1 hour each way, and its costs just shy of 10 quid return per day. I've investigated weekly, monthly and annual season tickets, but unless I can get a substantial saving (I mean at least an extra 25% saving on the advertised prices) they do nothing for me especially when I factor in leave (annual and flexi), regular trips out of the office and my flexible working pattern (which I have due to doing volunteer work one day per fortnight).

Overall, for my particular needs, using the car to commute provides me the better work/life balance. My employer needs to offer serious incentives to get me out of my tin box and onto the train by providing a more reliable service, better rolling stock and more attractive prices; then I might re-consider my options, but having spoken with FGW reps at length on the subject, it would appear hell might actually freeze over before any one of the above happens.....

I seriously doubt my employer will pass on those charges - there will be a fucking riot in my place if they do - but I sympathise deeply with any that may be affected by it and have no choice but to suck up the cost.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 31, 2009, 13:27:39
This is a absolute joke. This is in the end going to cost jobs, end of. And, in a years time, thet are also increasing NI contributions, just as we're in the middle of a recession.
Erm, it's not being introduced till 2012 - they postponed introduction because we're in the middle of a recession. And it only applies to large companies, not small businesses. Always helps if you actually read the story before kicking off.

(And no, I don't think it's a good idea either fwiw)


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: nevillew on Friday, July 31, 2009, 13:39:42

wow I feel like a naughty schoolgirl!  :-[

Me too!


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: santasdead on Friday, July 31, 2009, 13:41:49
The green argument is always poor. For instance a lot of the tax rates are based on CO2 emissions which is not a pollutant.

Yes it is,the worst kind. My laptop died so i don't have the figures anymore to back my point up,but i've done enough work regarding CO2 to prove the emissions are damaging the environment.

In regards to the taxing of parking spaces, that is a joke.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 31, 2009, 13:42:45
Me too!

You need to read that again Nev...


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Simon Pieman on Friday, July 31, 2009, 14:05:50
Yes it is,the worst kind. My laptop died so i don't have the figures anymore to back my point up,but i've done enough work regarding CO2 to prove the emissions are damaging the environment.

In regards to the taxing of parking spaces, that is a joke.

So why is the environmental damage caused by CO2 the worst kind? I would be interested to know as my knowledge of science is far from good. I don't want figures just the reasoning.

As far as I was aware, carbon dioxide is just a greenhouse gas which is attributable to global warming; NB: energy generation through burning fossil fuels is the worst culprit for this. It is not a pollutant. The other chemical emissions cause harm to humans, acid rain and smog as they are pollutants.

My point is by focussing on CO2 emissions, you create ignorance of other harmful pollutants so you are less green in that respect. Diesel engines are a good example, 'greener' than petrol in some ways, but much worse in others.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: nevillew on Friday, July 31, 2009, 15:14:27
You need to read that again Nev...

Can't really carry of 'deliberately ambiguous' can I ?


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: @MacPhlea on Friday, July 31, 2009, 15:22:12
If I were a business I would start re-classing all my car parking spaces as cycle parking spaces... what defines a car parking space? if it's white lines I would burn the fuckers off and make it one single parking space


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: santasdead on Friday, July 31, 2009, 15:42:55
So why is the environmental damage caused by CO2 the worst kind? I would be interested to know as my knowledge of science is far from good. I don't want figures just the reasoning.

As far as I was aware, carbon dioxide is just a greenhouse gas which is attributable to global warming; NB: energy generation through burning fossil fuels is the worst culprit for this. It is not a pollutant. The other chemical emissions cause harm to humans, acid rain and smog as they are pollutants.

My point is by focussing on CO2 emissions, you create ignorance of other harmful pollutants so you are less green in that respect. Diesel engines are a good example, 'greener' than petrol in some ways, but much worse in others.

The first point you raise of CO2 being attributable (infact its a major amplifier) of global warming & the cause being fossil fuels is true. The way that (i think) your suggesting that CO2 is not a pollutant & the fossil fuels are isn't totally incorrect. As an amplifier of global warming,which affects the worlds eco&biological system,it is a harmful substance = pollutant.

I see where your point lies,in the fact that other harmful gases such as sulphur are not combated against as much as carbon. The problem is that carbon is produced on a totally higher scale than other polutants, and throught the past century and half has exponentially increased in production, is why there is so much action being taken against it,as in the kyoto agreement. But i blame the americans.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Arriba on Friday, July 31, 2009, 15:51:40
labour wont be in government to introduce it, so dont fret folks.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Leggett on Friday, July 31, 2009, 16:02:16
A car journey to work; 10mins along the M4 from j16 to j15.

A bus journey to work; approx 20mins to town centre, then 20/30mins from town centre to work, with all my immigrant co-workers.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: leefer on Friday, July 31, 2009, 19:21:06
So hang on here..20% tax..another 10% national insurance,another 10% of my wages on council tax...taxed on petrol etc....car tax, tv tax,...even dog tax,(ive got a dalmation cos a black and white one is cheaper)..........its very taxing thinking about it..hang on what a good idea...tax our thaughts!!!!!!!!!!..


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, July 31, 2009, 19:49:57
labour wont be in government to introduce it, so dont fret folks.

Unfortunately its not that simple.

Labour announce a tax such as this (or another way of raising money, increase personal tax or NI or whatever) to be implemented in the future. They then work out how much money it will raise and it forms part of the budgets of future years.

If the Conservatives win the next election and don't implement the new tax they are then left with a hole in the budget. They either have to find the money elsewhere or cancel whatever the money was to be spent on. If they cancel it then they get blamed for it and not Labour.

Take Nottingham and the parking space tax. It appears the Nottingham Council are planning to use the money for improvements to public transport - a new (or improved) tram system I think. If the Conservatives cancel the parking space tax it means they'll be blamed for cancelling the public transport improvements.

Its likely that it would take an entire term of government for the Conservatives to sort stuff like this out, before they could really start changing things the way they want to.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 31, 2009, 19:52:26
 The Tories have already stated they'll make massive cuts in public spending, if elected next year...fair enough, at least voters will know where they stand.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Sippo on Friday, July 31, 2009, 20:09:25
How much emissions does a bus produce? The amount of buses you see which hardly have anyone on, surely the amount per person ratio, a car is better?


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Cookie on Friday, July 31, 2009, 20:25:34
excellent news,more needed to get lazy people out of their cars.

the fact is, we're all going to have to make concessions in order to make climate change less severe. when carbon trading becomes commonplace people will find ways to get to work without emitting too much in order to have a yearly holiday in Spain. I'm all for selling my carbon allowance to you rich fuckers who can afford to drive to work every day and fly half the way around the fucking world for a fucking poxy two week holiday at the detriment to thousands of fucking poor living below sea level. 


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Simon Pieman on Friday, July 31, 2009, 20:51:09
The first point you raise of CO2 being attributable (infact its a major amplifier) of global warming & the cause being fossil fuels is true. The way that (i think) your suggesting that CO2 is not a pollutant & the fossil fuels are isn't totally incorrect. As an amplifier of global warming,which affects the worlds eco&biological system,it is a harmful substance = pollutant.

I see where your point lies,in the fact that other harmful gases such as sulphur are not combated against as much as carbon. The problem is that carbon is produced on a totally higher scale than other polutants, and throught the past century and half has exponentially increased in production, is why there is so much action being taken against it,as in the kyoto agreement. But i blame the americans.

I don't disagree with any of that, save the fact crbon dioxide doesn't contaminate anything so is not a pollutant :)


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: leefer on Friday, July 31, 2009, 20:53:09
excellent news,more needed to get lazy people out of their cars.

the fact is, we're all going to have to make concessions in order to make climate change less severe. when carbon trading becomes commonplace people will find ways to get to work without emitting too much in order to have a yearly holiday in Spain. I'm all for selling my carbon allowance to you rich fuckers who can afford to drive to work every day and fly half the way around the fucking world for a fucking poxy two week holiday at the detriment to thousands of fucking poor living below sea level. 

Cookie...us paying more tax isnt going to help the fukin planet........if i payed less tax i might be able to afford the train...buses are piss poor and more pollution from one bus to a hundred cars.
Global warming is down to factories and big buisness so tax them....not me and you.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Arriba on Friday, July 31, 2009, 20:54:42
er thats what they are proposing leefer.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: leefer on Friday, July 31, 2009, 20:56:21
What taxing us to drive their cars?


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: leefer on Friday, July 31, 2009, 20:58:00
And park them?


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Talk Talk on Friday, July 31, 2009, 21:07:31
Yes it is,the worst kind. My laptop died so i don't have the figures anymore to back my point up,but i've done enough work regarding CO2 to prove the emissions are damaging the environment.

I don't think you have.

If your research consists of reading IPCC reports, listening to the media, the politicians or Al Gore then that's not looking in the right places.

Quote
What is wrong with the CO2 argument? Well most people have no understanding of climate science overall or the facts about CO2. The IPCC have also effectively made it the sole cause of climate change. AGW advocates and governments talk about reducing greenhouse gases, but they mean CO2. Few know it is less than 4% of all the greenhouse gases and the human portion is just a fraction of the 4%. Indeed, the amount we produce is within the error factor of the estimates of three natural sources.

CO2 EMISSIONS :

1. Respiration Humans, Animals, Phytoplankton 43.5 - 52 Gt C/ year

2. Ocean Outgassing (Tropical Areas) 90 - 100 Gt C/year

3. Volcanoes, Soil degassing 0.5 - 2 Gt C/ year

4. Soil Bacteria, Decomposition 50 - 60 Gt C/ year

5. Forest cutting, Forest fires 0.6 - 2.6 Gt C/year

6. Anthropogenic emissions (2005) 7.5 - 7.5 Gt C/year

TOTAL 192 to 224 Gt C/ year

The table shows the range of estimates of natural CO2 and human production in 2005 (Gt C/year is Gigatons of Carbon per year). Accuracy has not improved since. Notice the human contribution (6) is within the error range of three (1, 2, & 4) of the natural sources. The total error range is almost 5 times the amount of total human production. If we play the carbon tax game we can reduce that by 50 percent to 3.75 Gt C/year net because we remove half of what we produce through agriculture and reforestation. In other words, if everyone left the planet but one scientist remained to measure the difference in atmospheric CO2 he or she would not be able to measure any difference.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, July 31, 2009, 21:11:59
The Tories have already stated they'll make massive cuts in public spending, if elected next year...fair enough, at least voters will know where they stand.

Labour would have to make massive cuts in public spending as well, to balance the books from the massive increase in public borrowing. Funniest thing I heard a politician say came in their recent arguments in parliament over who was going to cut spending most, Brown accused Cameron of planning to cut health spending then said under Labour it would be increased by 0%. Fuck only knows how he worked that one out.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: santasdead on Friday, July 31, 2009, 22:43:29
I don't think you have.

If your research consists of reading IPCC reports, listening to the media, the politicians or Al Gore then that's not looking in the right places.


OK. So i've not done alot of work,but i've done enough to realise al gore was stupid & the media will say what they want to get a reaction,whilst the politicians don't understand the science. My research consisted of reading plentyful amounts of credited scientific reports.

You may recognise this sentence seeing as it is the title of the report you have quoted above :
Quote
Environmentalists Seize Green Moral High Ground Ignoring Science

I don't mean to be a twat here,but to ignore science? its like somebody coming out and saying "there is no such thing as gravity".

There are two camps within the greenhouse gas emmision & CO2's role in GHG's. Firsttly the ignorants,who blatantly say the science is wrong & have come up with numerous ways as to why CO2 isn't the cause of global warming (oh and pretty much all of them have been discredited by a thing called science). secondly, the scientists who can prove that human emissions of CO2 corelate to increased global temperatures.

Its clear which camp i sit in, and it is clear which camp that article wants people to be in,but it is utter bollocks that only 4% of GHG's is CO2. Aside from water vapour CO2 is the leading greenhouse gas created by humans & its properties allow it to have greater re-radiating ability than other gases such as nitrous oxide or methane.

I don't disagree with any of that, save the fact crbon dioxide doesn't contaminate anything so is not a pollutant :)
seems as though we have different ideas of pollution/pollutants,which is fair enough. :thumb:


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 31, 2009, 23:07:33
santasdead, what you have blatantly failed to realise is that global warming is all a plot by the lizard people to take over the earth by undermining the pure truth of the one true God FreeMarket. Reading so-called "science" and "facts" is all well and good but that is to fall into the trap set by the unbelievers. You are not looking in the right place - you need to read more obscure neocon blogs and watch Fox anchors on YouTube. ONLY THEY TELL THE TRUTH AS REVEALED TO THE TRUE BELIEVERS OF THE DENIM CREED.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: santasdead on Friday, July 31, 2009, 23:11:09
HAHA. I do apologise to Pauld & everyone else (especially TalkTalk) if my comment has pushed the boundaries abit too much. but that article talk talk quoted just set me off,sorry.

 :D


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: 4D on Friday, July 31, 2009, 23:13:11
Now, I don't normally like to get involved in political discussions on here, but this newest tax is just plain fucking ridiculous.

If your employer provides you with a parking space, you will now be charged £250 a year to park at your place of work. Technically the government will charge your employer, but they are free to pass the cost on.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/5942306/Motorists-to-pay-250-tax-for-parking-at-work.html

So if this happens can I just park out on the road outside the works car park? Actually I think I'll just give up working and sit at home, it's gotta be cheaper  :)


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 31, 2009, 23:15:43
HAHA. I do apologise to Pauld & everyone else (especially TalkTalk) if my comment has pushed the boundaries abit too much. but that article talk talk quoted just set me off,sorry.

 :D
Erm, I was taking the piss. I'm with you (whereas TalkTalk is off with the pixies)


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Div on Friday, July 31, 2009, 23:21:10
Quote from: santasdead
Blah Blah

You obviously don't have a car, so it doesn't affect you (you won't be left with a nice big hole in your pocket will you)
Unless your taxi services decide to tax you on every journey you take... :eatkf:

Also, i hope you didn't buy a new laptop, or get your broken one fixed; it would only lead to extra C02 emissions.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 31, 2009, 23:28:32
You obviously don't have a car, so it doesn't affect you (you won't be left with a nice big hole in your pocket will you)
It doesn't affect anyone who doesn't run a large company in Nottingham which provides parking spaces for it's employees or, to be more accurate, plans to do so from 2012 onwards. I'm guessing the number of people on here that that description fits is vanishingly small


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: herthab on Friday, July 31, 2009, 23:35:52
It won't affect me.

The view from my house is shit.

All in all, I feel these tax proposals are fine.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: 4D on Friday, July 31, 2009, 23:38:00
In an ideal world it would be nice to be able to use public transport, and I do from time to time.....but for me to get to work without my car would mean either of the following.................

a) Walking / Cycling  (9 miles on a road that is not pedestrian friendly)
b) Liftsharing (don't know anyone from my town who commutes at my time)
c) Get a taxi ( I may as well drive  :doh:)
d) Using public transport (which would take 30 minutes by bus, and I would still be a 2 mile walk from work)

 :cry:







Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: flammableBen on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 00:19:01
In an ideal world during a recession, the country will borrow and spend as much as possible.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: pauld on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 00:21:27
Yup, same as. Whether I'd like to use public transport to work is neither here nor there because it's just not practical (distance/hours worked/reliability). Some of these gits in Whitehall should spend a week or two in the real world. But this scheme is more about window dressing than any real effort to force people not to use cars - its bullshit PR which will have minimal effect on car use (even in Nottingham after 2012) or tram use or the economy which is being whipped up into a "Labours new tax attack on car users" storm in a pre-election teacup


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: pauld on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 00:22:05
In an ideal world during a recession, the country will borrow and spend as much as possible.
Are you related to my missus or just in her pay?


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: flammableBen on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 00:24:24
I wish I was in pay from someone. Surely it's just common sense? Whilst as individuals we're better off cutting down on our spending and saving up, if everybody does that it makes things 1000times worse. Spend Spend Spend, Borrow Borrow Borrow.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Crozzer on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 03:00:31

The window tax will be next, energy savings with less windows.

The tax was introduced under the Act of Making Good the Deficiency of the Clipped Money in 1696 under King William III[1] and was designed to impose tax relative to the prosperity of the taxpayer, but without the controversy that then surrounded the idea of income tax. At that time, many people in Britain opposed income tax, on principle, because they believed that the disclosure of personal income represented an unacceptable government intrusion into private matters, and a potential threat to personal liberty.(JOHN STUART MILL, PRINCIPLES OF POLITICAL ECONOMY, BK. V, CH. 3, SECTION 5)[citation needed] In fact the first British income tax was not introduced until the late 18th century and the issue remained intensely controversial well into the 19th century.[2]

When the window tax was introduced, it consisted of two parts: a flat-rate house tax of 2 shillings per house and a variable tax for the number of windows above ten windows. Properties with between ten and twenty windows paid a total of four shillings, and those above twenty windows paid eight shillings.[3] The number of windows that incurred tax was changed to seven in 1766 and eight in 1825. The flat-rate tax was changed to a variable rate, dependent on the property value, in 1778. People who were ineligible for church or poor rates, for reasons of poverty, were exempt from the window tax.[4] Window tax was relatively unintrusive and easy to assess. The bigger the house, the more windows it was likely to have, and the more tax the occupants would pay. Nevertheless, the tax was unpopular, because it was seen by some as a tax on "light and air".[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_tax


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Phil_S on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 08:52:51
The government use green as an excuse for hiking tax. If you want to get the country greener it's simple use a stick & a carrot, not just a bloody stick.
If public money were invested in a decent transport system at a decent price it would be used. I lived in Doncaster for a couple of years in the 70's & the bus service was second to none. It was cheap, frequent (a bus every 5 or 10 mins) & ran for long hours. Very few people I knew used cars within the town & surrounding area.
Lets take the trains. If I want a night out in say Bristol or Bath the train is NOT an option because the last train back is before 11.00 pm. If I want to go to London it costs more than it costs my missus to fly to Alicante to see the mother in Law.
The only Time I would use the train is if it got me to where I wanted to go, when I wanted to go & at a reasonable cost. Only happens occasionally the last time being a journey to Gatwick & back where the train does run to the airport (unlike Brissle) I picked up a deal onthe train tiockets & saved on two weeks parking.
Then there is the question of electricity generation. Why the hell don't they invest imore in real renewable energy such as a Severn Barrage. The US did something similar in the 30's during the depression & built the Hoover Dam which is still working today. That would have been a far more effective way of spending the 12 billion that the goverment pissed away by cutting VAT by 2.5% !

And that last point brings me to my second point. Gordon Browns approach to fiscal management has always been the same. Raise taxes. He started off by taxing our pension funds & has been coming up with spiffing wheezes to hike tax ever since. Most of it has been wasted.
Its like he is trying to fill a collander (The goverments budget) by turning the tap on more (Taxes). He does sod all to address the real problem which is blocking the holes (waste). The waste of tax payers in this country is horrendous. One example is the NHS. Sure more money goes in & some has actually been going to the right place, but this is more by accident than design. We have seen doctors salarys rise from 40 k pa to over 100 k pa. The HHS super computer has sucked billions out of the system, layers of beauracracy created where a press officer I knew earned 53 k pa for a 2/3 day week.



Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 08:55:12
Most of it has been wasted.
Its like he is trying to fill a collander (The goverments budget) by turning the tap on more (Taxes). He does sod all to address the real problem which is blocking the holes (waste). The waste of tax payers in this country is horrendous.

That's some proper Alvin Hall metaphor stuff there.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Talk Talk on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 09:41:44
Erm, I was taking the piss. I'm with you (whereas TalkTalk is off with the pixies)

Why I am 'off with the pixies'?

The CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is about 350 parts per million. Yes, that's per million. If you study the numbers I gave above, man made emissions contribute almost nothing to that tiny amount.

Water vapour accounts for about 96% of greenhouse gases. What are we going to do, start trying to reduce the world's water?

As for CO2 having such a powerful effect, then historically the concentrations in the atmosphere have been two to three times higher and the planet still self regulated.

As for 'global warming'? Earth's temperature has not risen since 1998 and has been falling since 2002, even with massive increases in spewing Chinese factories and coal burning power stations. Oh, let's call it 'climate change' instead - ah, funnily enough the earth's climate always changes. Bonkers old thing the short and long term solar sunspot cycles, eh?

I'm with Phil S. That's what governments do. They find as many ways to increase taxes as they can. The global warming hysteria is a gift when it comes to squeezing more money out of us, just like taxing parking spaces.

'Off with the pixies'? Nah, I prefer to use my own considered judgement on the reasons why so much of my income (getting on for 70% now) disappears down the government black hole.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: jonny72 on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 12:00:48
If public money were invested in a decent transport system at a decent price it would be used.

Simple solution - make all public transport (buses, trams, trains) free and pay for it by increases in income tax.

It would totally shaft the car industry, but we can get the people working on the public transport system instead. It would also totally shaft the oil industry, no need to do anything about that - the fuckers deserve it.

Plus by paying for it through income tax the rich would pay more in proportion.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: leefer on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 12:02:50
Simple solution - make all public transport (buses, trams, trains) free and pay for it by increases in income tax.

It would totally shaft the car industry, but we can get the people working on the public transport system instead. It would also totally shaft the oil industry, no need to do anything about that - the fuckers deserve it.

Plus by paying for it through income tax the rich would pay more in proportion.

Thats too simple Johny...cant be having that!


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Phil_S on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 12:08:05
Don't get me wrong global warming is a problem. Not for the planet, as Talk talk says the planet self regulates over millions of years. But for human beings, or more to the point modern human beings as
CO2 DOES generally increase temperatures (& rainfall).
But as has been said it's not the only or the most powerful greenhouse gas. Methane is a lot more powerful, & there is a hell of a lot trapped at the bottom of the oceans. Currently it is trapped by the pressure & temperature down their, but a small rise in the oceans average temperature to above the boiling point of methane at that pressure will turn the methane into gas & release huge amounts. The real but possibly remote danger is that this will cause the planet to become like venus, but as that is much closer to the sun, it's not a good comparison & by that time humans would probably be extinct any way.
Other than that the main problems seem to be that of rising sea levels & climate change. Things that have happened to the planet mnany times before, even in the time that homo sapiens has been around.
So to summarise my thoughts yes we need to try & be clean & green etc, for our OWN comfort & well being, but as far as taxation is concerned its just an excuse. And for a so called socialist government its a bloody disgrace as these taxes affect the poorest far more than the rest.
 


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Phil_S on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 12:12:01
Simple solution - make all public transport (buses, trams, trains) free and pay for it by increases in income tax.

It would totally shaft the car industry, but we can get the people working on the public transport system instead. It would also totally shaft the oil industry, no need to do anything about that - the fuckers deserve it.

Plus by paying for it through income tax the rich would pay more in proportion.

Something radical like that would have an effect. Stealth / green taxes don't. By their very nature they are designed so we don't really notice & carry on as normal until we suddenly realise after years of mismangement that we've been shafted. Bit like the toad in boiling water.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: cib on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 13:35:46
As for 'global warming'? Earth's temperature has not risen since 1998 and has been falling since 2002, even with massive increases in spewing Chinese factories and coal burning power stations. Oh, let's call it 'climate change' instead - ah, funnily enough the earth's climate always changes. Bonkers old thing the short and long term solar sunspot cycles, eh?

So you're attributing climate variability exclusively to "Solar sunspot cycles"? There is evidence to suggest that change in solar output does have an effect on global climate - it has been used to explain temperature decreases predominantly, rather than increases, and the majority of these were during times when the earth was in an ice age. This is because during ice ages the climate is much more unstable and any change can have a larger impact than during warmer periods.

On top of this the Little Ice Age (which was 1500-1850ish) has been attributed to reduced solar activity - but even that has been argued to have been localised rather than global. So "solar sunspot cycles" are yet to be proven to cause climate change on the scale we've seen in the past 150 years or longer periods of time and on a global scale - it may explain an annual change for example La Nina and the cooler period associated with that but frankly thats about it.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: jonny72 on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 14:03:25
Regardless of the environment, it is just plain stupid that we all use cars as much as we do. Its just common sense that things would be better if we didn't have to travel as much and used more efficient forms of transport.

Just imagine if we were to squash all of Swindon in to an enlarged town centre, with no roads and a new transport system (tram or monorail) which meant you never had more than a 5 or 10 minute walk.

Surely that would be a lot better than what we have at the moment.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Talk Talk on Saturday, August 1, 2009, 16:40:32
Regardless of the environment, it is just plain stupid that we all use cars as much as we do. Its just common sense that things would be better if we didn't have to travel as much and used more efficient forms of transport.

Just imagine if we were to squash all of Swindon in to an enlarged town centre, with no roads and a new transport system (tram or monorail) which meant you never had more than a 5 or 10 minute walk.

Surely that would be a lot better than what we have at the moment.

The reality is that you will never get people out of their cars no matter how much you tax or inconvenience them.

I for one would much travel in my own car or on my own motorbike rather than being stuck in a bus, tram or monorail like cattle sat next to smelly people like you. There is also the rage inducing problem of people shouting in their mobile phones, the constant irritating racket of iPod earphones and so on.

Nope. Bollocks to that, I will continue to emit my own CO2 (and as much as possible) thank you very much.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Simon Pieman on Sunday, August 2, 2009, 11:35:34
If public transport was good value for money people would use it more.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, August 2, 2009, 13:48:10
I for one would much travel in my own car or on my own motorbike rather than being stuck in a bus, tram or monorail like cattle sat next to smelly people like you. There is also the rage inducing problem of people shouting in their mobile phones, the constant irritating racket of iPod earphones and so on.

Its going to take a lot of time and effort to change attitudes towards public transport. I'd use the bus more if;
- it didn't feel like I was risking my life every time I get on one
- they weren't so expensive
- they didn't smell of piss
- they ran on time
- they had a night service

I actually prefer public transport over having to drive everywhere, but it just isn't practical at the moment. Even when I go up to London it is cheaper and quicker to drive than go by train, which is just stupid.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Crozzer on Sunday, August 2, 2009, 17:35:58

If escort services, call girls and prostitutes were made legal, besides resulting in fewer m.p.'s and members of the House of Lords breaking the law, there would be the opportunity for significant tax revenue.  A Special Service tax levied at say 51%, would provide significant funds to the Exchequer, and would provide for health monitoring and screening for the service providers.  The crime rate would probably fall.   


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: genf_stfc on Sunday, August 2, 2009, 18:21:56
crack. legalise crack and tax that. start it off quite cheap, just to get plenty of people started on it, then tax the arse out of it.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: nevillew on Monday, August 3, 2009, 06:24:54
crack. legalise crack and tax that. start it off quite cheap, just to get plenty of people started on it, then tax the arse out of it.

I think that's what Crozzer was on about...


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: mexico red on Monday, August 3, 2009, 09:46:57
If public transport was good value for money people would use it more.

nail on head. down here the south coast railway line is fucking brilliant, 5 times an hour and 3 quid return to brighton from shoreham which is 7 miles, takes 15 minutes to get into city centre and very very rarely late. consequently its always busy whatever time of the day.


Title: Re: Labour's newest tax on motoring
Post by: Batch on Monday, August 3, 2009, 11:13:56
If public transport was good value for money people would use it more.

It has to be reasonably convenient too. For a football/gigs/whatever example I mean the last train home shouldn't be 11pm or earlier.