Thetownend.com

the other thread has been locked.
i have enjoyed the debate with you both,and respect your opinions but disagree with alot of it.
but the fact that we all feel so strongly about stfc is a good thing and though we disagree.our aims are all the same.

I agree to dissagree, just shows how difficult the club's job is going to be.

whay has been locked?

Asher, in reply to your other post.

I must be fucking stupid listening to wankers like you and Simon.

The simple answer to your question is YES.
Yes I do expect the board to pump some money into the playing squad.  If they can't support the team financially then they shouldn't be running the club. End of.

As I've already stated this is circular debate and there is only one way to break this cricle and that for the owners to put in some cash.  An investment for the future.  But no you don't agree with that, you'd rather we carry on in a downward spiral towards the conference.  Allways defending the board, the same people who put us where we are now.

All this bollocks about getting behind the team is absurd.  I go to as many games as possible and have done since before you were born so don't fucking dare to question my loyalty to the club, got it?

Simon,

Your comment about people not understand the situation at the club is what I was referring to. Straight of the Johnny Doyle textbook.  If they don't agree with you, start patronising them, you'll be calling names next.

Don't anger Ash... he's a dangerous man!  :wink:

I thought you said you had followed them for 20 years, I am 25 so you are wrong, am I being patantic? yes I am, am I a wanker, again yes I am and proud of it.  The board put in a hell of a lot of money supporting the club, more than youa dn I are willing to put in.  What do the board owe you? fuck all thats what.

I am not happy about relegation, far from it, but id rather we were in teh bottom league on a finacially stable footing than be in league one adding up debt.

got it (yes thats me taking the piss again)

well over 20 years so I am right.

Wrong the board are nothing but custodians of STFC.  They are not the club, the fans are the club, it's our club not theirs.  They owe the fans the respect that we deserve and we do not deserve Division 4 football.

Oh and the main difference between me and the club directors is that they are multi-millionaires and I'm not.

Got it? If that was meant to be funny it's in line with your other hilarious postings about "getting behind the club" "we're not relegated yet" and "you don't know what your talking about"

comedy fucking genius................

Sipie was right. A large percentage of our fans are thick and do not understand the situation.

Calling names? I think a certain person called me a cunt a few minutes ago  :-))(

It's going to require millions of pounds of investment to save us and SSW has already ploughed in millions. I can't really see the point of wasting even more money without a plan for the future. If we wiped the slate clean with all the debts we would still be making losses year upon year. It's a shame but it's true.

I simply stated a fact  :wink:

fuck me you need to chill out mate, theres more to worry about in life than getting stressed on a forum.  I will repeat what I said if you dont like it do something about teh board, buy them out? raise the capital investment it will take.  Oh no youd rather sit on a website all day moaning about it.  If people in history sat on their backsides moaning nothing in this world would have been developed.

and why is it stupid i said were not down? We havent been relegated, so I am right.

This is better than trisha

zzzZZZzzzZZZzzzZZZzzz

Your telling me, mate I hope you realise that we are in this situation and there is nothing you can do (as you are not prepared to place millions into the club).

I dont actually care what people think of me on this forum, very thick skinned but you in all your aguments have coem across to me as a bit of a twat.

i've had my say so i aint going to go off on one but,i was thinking,is it possible that the supporters of the club  put more of their personal money into the club than any of the investors.how much from your weekly wage go's into the club?
fact is if the investors didn't have the money they never would have put it in, its not as if they are living in poverty is it.

Bit of a slow day at work lads?  :D

Good change of argument.  Id say the following

23 home games - 10 in town end @ £15 = £150, 13 in nationwide @ £23 = £299, Home tickets @ 449

away games, say 15 to be very safe at an average of £17 = £255

Travel to away games - on average a tank of fuel £53 = £795

Couple of shirts, training stuff, kit for nephews - £75

Can I include drink etc ona  day, at least £50 every home game, but thats  a social thing etc but thats at least £1150 at home and say £20 away as I drive so that £300

In total - £3,024 thats not as much as I thought to be honest.

If each supporter put say 1k a year into teh club thats 5000 x 1000 = 5 million, I would say thats not a bag budget but many fans wont do it.

Another fucking internet genius.

Much like yourself, opinions held by others towards me are an irrelivance.  You may think I'm a twat (wouldn't say it to my face no doubt) but your narrow minded ignorance and blind loyalty to the board, far outshines anything else I could say about you.

We don't need millions at this stage. We need a decent lump for a new manager and a decent playing squad, at Div4 level that doesn't cost millions.  If I had millions I'd put some in (and make sure you got a lifetime ban in the process :wink: )

:roll: If the board put in a 'decent lump' we'd be better on the pitch. No shit. Give them a ring and tell them. They probably didn't realise when they slashed the budgets to a shoestring.....Oh.

What about Peter. Crouch. Giraffe in an England shirt...

I probably would as most people on here realise I dont give a fuck mate.  As for the decent lump sum, we have a duty to our creditors which far outweighs signing new players.  Whats the point of having a squad of brilliant players if we arent allowed to play any games as the company (yes swindon town fc is a company) has gone out of business.  no wonder you called me a genius!


 :D

As for the ban, I would be right behind you for a take over bid, youd pay your money get me banned which results in less income into your business....

hang on ive just got to make a call to Mark Devlin.  Need to tell him to un pack his suitcase as I think his job may well be safe considering his main critic hasnt really got a clue...

Got to ask... What is it that you drink on Matchdays?

Seeing as we are in calculation mode, can we assume 50/2.5 = 20 pints of beer?

And for an away day 20/2.5 = 8 pints of beer... followed by driving?!

Or is it a glass of '97 Cristal pre game, and then drowning your sorrows with a few schooners of Vintage Port afterwards?

At least £50 every home game is the key word not necessarily meaning driving especially if people live in Swindon.  I often get a lift to home games so I can have a few beers.
Spending money away could easily cover buying rounds of drinks which can work out expensive if your mates are on spirirts and your drinking coke.

Coke is expensive too.

As in coca cola for anyone who takes what I said out of context.

I very much doubt Sandy Gray & mark Devin are multi millionres. As for Mike diamandis, who knows? hes not even a director though as the dodgy cunt is still banned as far as I'm aware

Yes. I had realised it was home games, although I was assuming that this was pre and post game drinks, as opposed to also including nightclub action/strip bar crawl or anything else in the evening afterwards... 20 pints of beer in a day is a huge effort, especially if it is between the hours of 11 and 8ish...

Fair point about people drinking spirits (coke?!) as being a bit more pricey but I can't think of a bar in Swindon which is genuinely 'expensive' for stuff like that.

Take it some people dont buy a round then, on an away game I prob buy a round, say £10.00 and then a burger for me and dex (hes tight) some much at services, al in all towards teh club as if I didnt follow them I wouldnt be at teh services/pub etc

On a home game we usualyy meet for a few beers before, say one round £10.00 then after game another round in county £10 some food £5, then a night in town which is at least £50

Money adds up whenm your not tight fisted!

Ashers got money to burn. He was able to retire on his last deal  :wink:

Usually (although maybe not if your pals are tight) you also get to drink when other people buy rounds so the amount you drink is similar whether you are in rounds or not.

Makes a little more sense with food and a night out afterwards included.

No intention of causing offence incidentally. It just sounded like there was some David Boon-esque drinking going on at games, and I wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing out on the fun!

To be fair some games we have been a tad bit messy, may explain it but most of our lot spend about 100 a weekend on footy/sat, and before anyone starts no we dont touch drugs such as coke etc as thats a mugs game.

As for my last deal that would have been the invoice I just typed, wow £47.50 im retiring now, ha ha

Just in case anyone is not familiar with the reference to Tasmania's finest in my last post, here is a good explanation...

http://beebo.org/smackerels/david-boon.html

That is quality, are you need teh abbey road studios mate? That area of London is one of my most favourite (ive gone like reg now!)

Yes. I live just off Abbey Road by the south west corner of Lords, about 5 minutes walk from the studios. No matter what time of day it is, there always seems to be tourists having their picture taken on the crossing... quite funny really. Especially when there is an irate car driver shouting at them.

My cousin works in there, the studio looks nothing till you get inside and then it is huge!

Lush area mate, very jealous

Diamandis can once again act as a company director but you're spot on.  No one on the current board has the personal resources or the desire to sink their own personal fortune into the club.

Wee Willie is and has always been a figurehead.  A Delia of sorts  designed to give a public face and image to the takeover from DD and IB and he’s said just as much on a couple of occasions since.

The only other board member who may have resources to any extent they’d make a difference is Bob Holt who appears to have disappeared up the Khyber.  

The only source of cold hard currency is Sir Seton Wills whose money is used to stop the threat of being wound-up.  Coincidently the last winding-up order averted by a couple of days was only three short months ago.  

I think the set-up may be dubious as hell but it’s Wills choice of team on the coal face, they are the ones appointed at the AGM to run the club and if you don’t like it then buy some shares and oppose their re-election.  Aside from Sir Seton the single most crucial element that looks like it could assure our future and probably has done over the past three seasons is the prospect of developing the CG site.

Until concrete proposals are put to the council no one knows precisely what the make-up or the reality of such a development may be.  The first set of proposals were unworkable but the club and council while they may be at a bit of a stalemate have agreed to work together and find a viable solution.  I can’t see anyone waving at least a couple of million as an alternative.

From the outside, it is hard to imagine that some of the greatest records ever were made in there.

Can't say that I've ever been inside though, much as I'd like to.

Don't get too envious though, in a few weeks time, I'm moving to a flat in Kil(l and )burn  :shock:

Cracking post Dazzza. I agree 100%

good post dazza.
what if the council and board cannot come up with a viable solution though?
i just hope it all works out.

Then they might need a bit of a nudge in the right direction from interested parties, namely us, the fans!

 :roll:
and bollocks, you only get the burgers if its your round you honkey bastard

lets talk about the amount of beers I bought you, the petrol discounts, the extra burgers, the amount of times i said here on me mate.

CUNT

I'm definitely coming with you if there's free burgers... 8)

asher wrote:
and before anyone starts no we dont touch drugs such as coke etc as thats a mugs game.

don't make me laugh

As Rob says, the fans jump in and do thier best to make sure it does work, because at the end of the day its OUR football club....

 I'd agree with most of that, but it should be pointed out that Wee Willie arrived on the scene as a director in 96/97..when there was the last share issue.

 This was when SSW hoovered up the excess shares and became by far the major shareholder ahead of the likes of Peter Godwin,

 BTW.....David Hempelman Adams also held 100,000 shares at the time the same as Carson.

Perhaps if the "burden" of keeping the club alive is too much for Wills, he might want think about offering some of his shares for sale to the fans?

I'm sure if you made a reasonable offer he'd be happy to sell....after all this is what happened with Brady.

   He bought some shares to get involved with the promise to buy out SSW, once his project got going....which of course it never did and once SSW saw the damage being done to the club, he used his shareholding to oust DD and IB.

I was talking about a fans "consortium" of sorts reg.

This is the second time in as many days you've expressed some support for the idea of a community owned club.
 
You're starting to sound a bit bolshie for a brown shirt. I'd watch out for those long knives if I were you.

On a more serious note though, the first time was when you were supporting the only really serious proposal for change (Reg's) put forward on a thread on THISIS.

However, you'd spent the rest of the thread ranting along with the rest that the board were a bunch of shitbags and needed to get their wallets out.

Now there's a bit of a contradiction there. You either want some wealthy backer bunging a load of money into the club regularly to keep it going, and consequently acting as if he owns the club, BECAUSE HE DOES. Or you want to take your chances with the community getting of its arse, taking on the ownership and management, and doing something to save the club.

You can't have both.

As Reg, quite rightly as always, pointed out no-one, not even the tuppenny-happenny local businessmen like Hillier were prepared to put in any significant amounts without ownership and control, and the clubs rules were changed in order to facilitate that.

In my heart I'm with Reg. I'd love to see the club owned and controlled by a fans consortium. In my guts the idea scares the shit out of me. Partly because the fucking idiocy that is all too apparent on that Thisis thread makes me think these are not people that should be running a bath let alone a football club. But mainly because i think everybody underestimates just what a difficult job it is keeping a club above water in the lower leagues.

Admitedly fans only get clubs handed to them when things are really bad, but Bournemouth, Rotherham, Wrexham, they've hardly gone from strength to strength have they.

Rotherham are probably the closest equivalent to us, i don't think they own the ground either, and look where they are. No bugger breaks even on their football income, and like them we've no other assets, and no other serious income streams.

In our current state with the CVA pending i just don't think it's a goer I'm afraid.

Which leaves us with the current board, and the hope that the development goes through. (Because despite what the deluded what idiots on that other forum might think, there's no queue of people waiting to buy up the club and chuck money at it)

Incidentally on the subject of the development you made some statement that the board were only hanging around for that to happen and for them to get their money back.

Well Little Willie might have a hope of getting the £400k in loans that he put in back, but there's no fucking way it'll generate anything like what SSW's put in. And he know's it. He's just hoping it will stabilize the club enough for him to be able to turn off the drip feed of his own cash that it takes to keep it alive at the moment.

Aye, but I don't think he was on the board during El Tel's regieme was he?

Don't suppose you have a list of the main shareholders handy do you Reg or even what the majority SSW holds?

Its a bit tricky to track some of this stuff down....but at the time of the second CVA, SSW held 1.8 mill shares this represented 40% of the total.

 STPL held 21%

 James Wills 283,350 or 6.3%

 Wendy Godwin 398,934, roughly 9%

  Carson 100,000 or 2.2 %

 Then a couple of oddities Charles Adams and Robert Haville each holding about the same as Carson

 By 2003 the last set of accounts Wendy Godwin has none left Carson and James Wills the same and no mention of others not on the Board.

 Of course the Newbury lot have no shares at all.

  No idea what became of the STPL holding.

I was trying to protect your habit paddy

haha, good lad, i'm clean now anyway

3 months!!!!

good for me

Bad for business  :(

yea your business

Fair shout the start was expected but i'll move on..........

I'll clarify a couple of things for you and then look at the rest.

I'm pissed off at the board, did they deliberatley hope to take the club down a division for the parachute money and two years (Including this one) of Div4 wages and put the "saving" on the loss to one side for the CVA payment next year?  

Or was it a gamble at trying to retain L1 on the lowest possible budget, that hasn't looked like it's going to pay off from the kick off?

I don't know but as far as I'm concerned, deliberatley taking the club to a lower division, especially the lowest one in the football league is unacceptable.  That division can be lethal to clubs who drop through the trap door, possibly into the abyss for all time.  That, would fucking kill me.

As we all know everything is about money in the game but hangers on like one Mr Carson (Who I think has made it plain on a number of occassions, mainly on home matchday, that he doesn't want to be involved with the club) might be doing himself a favour by hanging on in there, I believe he's doing the club a dis-service at the very least. This is especially evident when you look at his record of involvement with the club since his publicly admitted financial "mistake".

Wills and his money have admittedly saved our arse on a number of occassions in the past but as they have control of the club, i'll refer you to the bit about gambling.  The stadium issue is significant in all this as is this final cva of £900k.  I hope SSW's cash can sort that one out and I have no problem with him getting cash out of the redeveloped/new stadium and additional facilities.

Wills doesn't have to go, Carson does.  This is where the fans consortium comes in.  I wouldn't like to speculate on exactly how much his share is currently worth but I can't imagine it would be an un-realistic figure to achieve considering everything i've just said and probably a lot I haven't.

I could go on about the stadium as well but i'll leave that one with you.

Isn't Carson just the chairman becasue he was the only shareholder which would do it? I pretty sure I remember Wills saying he didn't want the job on numerous occasions.

I don't think willie does anthing with the running of the club so I don't really see how it makes a difference if he stays or goes. If he wants to keep his shares in the hope that the value will go up and he'll get back his money then fair enough.

That's  what your missing.

The fact he "does nothing"  is exactly why he should go.  

If  a fans consortium held his share and seat at the table, they would be able to have more influence in the clubs affairs.  As a group, we have little influence with the council, and even less likelyhood of gaining any in the future. All attempts at a new/redeveloped ground have failed and as we know relations between the board, the council and the fans aren't exactly great at the moment. It appears no influence at the club either.

It's been shitty at this club for a long long time now and I think that the time is ripe for change in some quarters, deadwood like Carson being the first thing to go.

Fair point. I wonder how much Carson's 2.2% share would be worth now.

:thumbs:   Nice one cheers Reg.
Don't suppose you're going to share how many you've got tucked away are you?   :wink:

I always presumed SSW had a controlling stake although that could well be the case since the CVA.

Would be interesting to find out but I don't think you have to disclose/file shareholders outside of a companies own shareholder registry?

Presume STPL was a purely owned Brady stake?  I seem to remember the Trust approach him to make use of these and upset SSW a while back.

I see that the club is now officially registered at Newbury along with a certain Swindon Town F.C. Limited which sprang to life in 2001 and actually filed a return in 2004.  Wonder what that’s all about; change of office took place back in November.   :?

we should get a big possy of people and go to the address. demand some answers.

Buying Carson's share would give you a right to vote, not to a place on the board.  i think you need 25%+1 share to get that right, so you'd still end-up with the same people.

SSW has influence over a controlling interest, i think the property company owns shares still (maybe under a new name, Shaw Developments or something like that).  I'm fairly certain though that SSW can command more than 50% of the shares in voting, hence why we have the board we have - SSW votes them in every year they are up for renewal (Gray and James Wills were up last time I think, Reg?).

So Ironside, for you plan to have any real influence, you need to some how have a way of controlling 25% of the shares.  You would need all the fans shares plus some fo the other major shareholders, possibly even a few of which are currently loyal to SSW.  The development of the ground could be a way of some Community Org getting a stake in the club for just that reason?  The Council could request a 25%+1 stake for a Community Org in return for agreeing to finance the development through a new club lease - which in turn allows sale of land for development.

Last I heard the Wills family directly owned over 60% of the shares, may even be as high as 2/3rds. And I believe they control another 10% or so, but I may be wrong on that.

As Rob says, just buying Willie out (which would take 500k as that's what he invested and that's what he wants back) wouldn't be enough - you'd have to find someone else willing to sell you another 20+% of the shares. You can't just buy them from "Share-U-Like", you have to find an existing shareholder willing to sell.

Since then the Wills family have acquired back STPL's shares (they sold them to Brady in the first place IIRC) as part of the settlement with D&B, so they now have their 60+% controlling interest back.



After Brady left, it was D&B owned. We proxied for the shares at one AGM, and yes the board went bloody mental.


Can't remember exactly which is which, but basically one is the actual club which holds the league share, the other (probably Swindon Town F.C. Limited, but maybe a different co altogether) is the holding company which owns the club and which is itself pretty much wholly owned by the Wills family and some of the board - ie fans don't have a look-in on it. As I recall, it is the holding company which was doing the joint venture (as Shaw Park) with St Modwen over Shaw Tip and it is the holding co that is used as the primary investment vehicle for monies in and out - so loans to the club are generally done as loans to the holding co, as I understand it. It was this holding company that Cliff Puffett was urging the board to open up shares in to fans at the last AGM and that they said they couldn't comment on as it was a separate company, even though they then admitted they were all on the board of the holding company.


Most if not all of the Dunwoody related businesses were reorganised in November/December last year (change of directors, change of registered address, some folded and replaced with others etc). Mike Diamandis' disqualification as a director expired in November (ie from then he is legally allowed to act as a director of a company again). So it makes sense for him to reorganise his businesses accordingly - nothing especially sinister in it, just a bit of administrative "tidying up".

Before we get carried away with this fans buying up the shares idea, we should all remind ourselves why SSW and his family own such a huge chunk of the clubs share value.

As Reg pointed out on the thisis thread that was posted on here the other day, the fans had a chance to buy shares back in '94. Ricki Hunt even gave away a couple of shares to any fan that wanted them so that they could buy more in the rights issue.

It's embarrassing to admit but the opportunity was met with such a wave of apathy that the Wills family had to buy up the large number of shares that were left over. I can only say fair play to Reg who actually bought some, because I, like thousands of others never got around to it.

I have some! Only a couple of hundred, but still... 8)

Alright. There's no need to rub it in.

Dammit, I knew I should have lied about this and pretended to be one of the active, organised fans when I was younger. Who the hell would ever know......

Apart from Reg and Paul D who appear to have the names and addresses of everyone who ever had any kind of financial interest in the club.

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: Not me, I'm just distilling the knowledge (and hard research work) of others second hand. Whereas Reg is all-knowing and has a direct line into the motherlode of all things STFC. To paraphrase the hymn, there's not a youth player sprains his ankle during training but that he doth not know. (or something)

Thankyou Rob that's kind of what I'm getting at here.  

25% is an un-realistic figure to achieve but For the reasons stated in my previous post, Carson is deadwood.  His involvement with the club, even as a so called "figurehead" as been zero.  I think he'd be glad to get out with his £500k in tact.  I don't know if £500k is a realistic target for a "fans consortium" to achieve?

The benefit of the fans holding some shares is two fold.  Not only do we get some kind of influence within the club, even if it's only a direct voice in the shell like of SSW and a vote, we also have the added benefit  (I would have thought) of getting the inside track on stadium plans and discussions with the council.  We will also as a side effect increase our voice in the ears of the council.  We could (aided and abetted) apply some pressure in the forthcoming local elections as well.

If we have a "fans consortium" we may be able to influence the stadium issue in terms of having a greater emphasis on community, leisure and sporting activity (In light of the soon to have to be replaced Oasis & possibly Link centre)as opposed to the pointless housing & commercial development it will become (Although I accept that there has to be an amount of these facilities in order for the club to remain sustainable and indeed in order to finance some of the project) I think the emphasis should be on the sporting & community side of things, thus going someway to securing the clubs future and providing the new facilities the council are going to have to find in the near future.

Of course Carson could say no, sell his shares to Wills or others or I could be just some kind of retard and all this is a figment of imagination. don't say it.

Problem is less than 25 + 1% is useless, as Rob has pointed out. You're right about the benefits of fans holding shares, but you'd need that kind of level of shareholding in order to have the right to the kind of influence you're talking about. And then you'd need to find someone willing to sell you that many shares - Carson certainly doesn't have that many in his own right, so you're going to be looking at the Wills family being willing to part with some of theirs. Which is why Carson's shares are a bit of a red herring in this - you could (maybe) raise the 500k (which is far more than the shares are worth, by the way), and all you'd achieve would be to pay Willie back the money he invested and "get rid" of him as chairman. You still wouldn't have a say in the running of the club. Which is why the Trust have been campaigning since its inception for a fans' rep on the board - fans are the lifeblood of the club and should be included in its running.

As long as SSW maintains a share of the business over 50% then he has control over voting.

True, but the 25+1 holding does allow you to get someone on the board (which can help influence decisions) and can allow you to be a pain the rear end if were ever needed.

Yes okay, I realise that our influence would be minimal at the club.

I'd rather have someone at the club doing Carson's job (ie.Chairman) who actually does care about the club and is prepared to actually spend some time working to further it's interests.  Carson just blatantly doesn't give a shit.  Is it right that the "chairman" of the club does absolutely fuck all work for the club?  Not in my opinion.  The best person for the job is a fan.  

I still think our voice with the council will be increased with carson out and us in, even with our share being so little.  Especially if we argue the case for the redevelopment to be more community focused (assisting the council in their Oasis duties along the way) We can subsequently no doubt enlist the support of other community orientated groups along the way.

Lumpy
1994 was a relegation season but the club wasn't in the kind of shit it's now.  That's why it's important that something does happen this time around, especially with the stadium development being the ultimate key to the clubs long term survival.

Thats kind of what I was gettin at in an earlier post.

Fans tend to take over clubs, or gain a significant interest in the running of them, only when their deep in the shit. That's partly because club owners tend to look at fan takeovers as a last resort, (a bit like management buyouts for other companies,  they only happen when no other fucker wants the thing).  

But it's also because fans, like all people in all political movements (and that's what we're talking about here) tend to take the path of least resistance.  When things are desperate they might take action, if there's the right leadership and organisation, but they're only going to do that once they've exhausted all other possibilities.

Even those that would like to see a community owned club would probably still jump at the chance of someone with a bit of cash coming in and taking over, and who could blame them.

Ironside, most of what you argue for (fans having a minimal, and hence sadly ineffective, shareholding and fans arguing the case with the council for a community-based redevelopment of the CG) is already happening - the Trust have a shareholding of a few thousand shares (and much good it does us) and we have been consistently working on options for the CG redevelopment since we resurrected the idea of a CG redevelopment with the cross-party motion 18 months or so ago. Some of this is still necessarily "below the horizon" at the moment, but watch this space as they say (well, maybe perhaps not this exact one, but you get the point). None of the work we've done has necessitated spending hundreds of thousands on a useless shareholding and I'm puzzled as to what you think this would achieve other than to line Willie's pockets?

Paul

I don't understand does the fact that the trust holds a few thousand shares benefit the trust when dealing with the club and the council (on stadium matters)?

If it does (why else would you have them?) surely a few more wouldn't do you any harm?  I don't want to line carsons pockets, but I definatley want rid of him and if hard cash is the only thing he understands, why don't we give him what he wants and get someone in who will work for the club?    

Having him as Chairman is an insult to us all.  If we need a "figurehead" it should bea fan or one of the old 69 boys or such like, i'm sure they would be prepared to at least spare a few hours a week for the benefit of the club?

I think it's important now, possibly more than ever that fans have a direct stake in the running of their club.

never going to happen i would love it to but it never will

Not really.


I see what you're saying and obviously having a larger shareholding wouldn't harm our position, but to be honest it wouldn't do much good until it got to one of the key "tipping points" (e.g. at 25+1, certain legal rights kick in and you get a right of veto on certain matters etc). With the greatest of respect to you and wee willie, he's a bit of an irrelevance in terms of having a say in the running of the club - the fact he didn't know about the Atkinson TV thing until two weeks after it had been in all the local and national press speaks volumes about the nature of his position in the running of the club. He is just a figurehead nothing more and to be fair he's only ever claimed to be that. So the point I was making is that I don't see it's worth fans raising hundreds of thousands to spend it on replacing the current figurehead with one of our own choosing, if you see what I mean.


Right, I'd wholly agree - that's entirely what the Trust is all about. But for that we need a fans' rep on the board and that won't happen by just paying off Willie, that will only happen (at the moment) by either persuading the Wills family that it's in their and the club's best interests to do so or by forcing them into it by raising sufficient capital to buy so many of the Wills' family's shares that they'd be obliged to give us a seat on the board.

However, assuming they're not willing to have a fans' rep on the board anyway (and to date they've gone down the "over my dead body" line on that - see the statement put out in SSW's name prior to the last AGM) that route is more or less a hostile takeover bid as to get that amount of a shareholding would so dilute their controlling interest that they would risk losing overall control. And as in order to get that amount of shares you'd need them to sell you at least some of their holding to achieve it, you're in a bit of a cleft stick.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is let's not waste a huge amount of time, money and effort to be left with valueless shares in a company that isn't even where the real power lies anyway (as that is the holding company) and no clout within either company.

Like it or not, as things stand at the moment, fans will only be able to have a say in the running of the club at the say-so of the Wills family. And until they are persuaded to change their minds on that, buying up smaller quantities of shares is just going to be money down the drain.

so that's a dead duck then ?









 :(

"Dead duck"'s perhaps a bit harsh - but as things stand at the moment, anyone wanting a greater say in the running of the club can only realistically hope to do so with the consent and cooperation of the Wills family. Which, given they own most of the shares, is just the way things work.

Basically a full-frontal cash-based approach, short of buying the club outright, won't achieve what you're after. On which note, for all those demanding that the board "put the club up for sale", AFAIK it has been for several years now - I'm pretty sure they'd welcome with open arms anyone with enough cash to buy them out and demonstrate they could give the club a viable future.

its thursday morning and i cant be bothered to debate  :D

fuck.

I still think we should get rid of that horse shagging midget doing the chairman's job though and give it to someone who will actually do some work on the clubs behalf.

I have posted a poll to get a rough idea of any appettite for change on that front http://www.thisisstfc.co.uk/forum_new/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27932

I suppose the only thing that will determine whether things will get any better in the medium term is succesful completion of the CVA.

Lumpy,
I think that it will eventually come down to the fans in the long term anyway, once they've got their cash out, they'll be looking for a way out in exactly the same way that Kassam has.  When it does I hope we can do something, better start saving now.......

Ash,
your arguements are shit anyway :wink:

Sort a poll out on here too Ironside, It would be interesting to compare the results.

done

I think you misunderstand UK company law. It is not necessary for Carson to own any shares to be chairman. He's there because the shareholders voted him in. I.e. because the Wills family want him there. His own shareholding is irrelevant except that it entitles him to vote for himself.  In other words, even if he sold all his shares, he could still remain as chairman if the Wills family wanted him to.

As far as I know Mark Devlin, Sandy Gray, and Bob Holt dont own any shares in STFC (or at least not enough to warrant a mention in the accounts) but they are on the board because they are Wills family appointees.

The Trusts shareholding allows us to attend club AGMs/EGMs but without a very substantial increase it wouldnt give us any more legal rights. We have to balance the benefits against the costs. So far all our shares have been donated to us by fans and have cost nothing. If we can acquire more for nothing then why not, but if its going to cost a lot of money, there are probably better uses for the cash.

Having more (a lot more) shares could give us more sway, but in the short term at least I think there are better ways to achieve this.

Firstly, in terms of credibility by getting the CG development off the ground in the first place and by continuing to act as a broker between the various interested parties. This has given us significant credibility within the local political scene, and to an extent with the club too.

Secondly, a larger membership. We're open to suggestions on how we might achieve this. There seem to be only so many fans that are willing to actually get involved.



Agree 100%

Paul & friend

I understand all the gubbins at the beginning.  What I was getting at originally was just getting rid of Carson completeley as I think he would, privatley, be grateful just to get something back.  Hence all the stuff about shares but I accept your points that the end may not justify the means.

The thing about Carson though, being Chairman.  
The fact the management don't ask Carson to do anything, and it doesn't cost us anything because of that fact, still doesn't make it right.  As Daz and others have pointed out, he was at the very least (when he was given the role) supposed to give us a bit more of a media profile.  It was obviously bollocks then, he's a horses man and that's his life as well as his job, when the fuck was he ever going to do anything for us? Especially after he realised he'd only gone and brought a one way ticket on the Titanic.  It was never going to happen was it.

The point is that so far, and its marginal, the polls show that there would be support for a change in the man in the chair (I also think some of those votes against are more directed at me rather than the question).  So buying Carson out completeley is the least likely option.

If the chairman doesn't have to be shareholder, there is nothing stopping a fan having the job other than greed and secrecy.

I still want shot of Carson.  I'd rather see them scrap the title than see it attributed to him next season.  In fact why don't they just take a leaf out of the prime ministers book and sell the title on the open market.