Bit of a hoo-haa down in london

[nevillew]

Think that's dungarees isn't it?

Crocodile Dungaree ?

[donkey]

My tolerance levels are also taking a bit of a hammering.  (Bladder's OK for now though, thankfully.)  Is a normal thing...youthful idealism starting to drain away when you're confronted with the realities of middle age?  I think I'm still more liberal than most, but I've also noticed a shift.  Give it 10 years and we'll all be reading the Daily Mail, discussing house prices and noting how that Ironside fella was misunderstood all along.  It's a dark, distopian vision of the future, that's for sure.

Funnily enough, I'm going in the opposite direction.  Quite happy about it to be honest.  I was politicised as a kid by Thatcher, going through her education system, and my mum working in her NHS, enough to put you off voting Tory for life (which it has done).  The thing is, to echo pauld's point, Labour started this mess and should also be held to account.

[Lumps]

It really fucks me off the way all of a sudden, because working class kids are going to university, we suddenly have a load of arguments about the utility of the degree courses that students are taking, and everyone has swallowed the argument that the individual should "make a contribution" to the cost of their education.
Why did nobody give a fuck about this 30 years ago, when it was largely the kids of the upper and middle classes whose educations our taxes were paying for? Those upper class twits haven't only just started taking their "history of art" degrees you know.
I could more easily swallow the argument that it's "fair" for those that benefit from higher education to pay something towards it, if that argument wasn't being propogated largely by the children of millionaires, all of whom went to univeristy for free, with the benefit of full maintenance grants, most after leaving public schools that cost tens of thousands a year to attend.
If these people genuinely believed it was fair for everyone that went to university to pay something for their education, then what the fuck are they planning to pay?

And if I hear one more Tory cunt trot out that tired old line about some cleaning lady paying their taxes to pay for a student to go to university for three years I will fucking chin someone! If some cleaning lady's taxes are paying for that, then it's your fault as a government for having a woefully unprogressive tax regime you fucker!

Perhaps if Labour had managed to find a fucking backbone and introduced the 50% tax rate when it came to power rather than as a last desperate measure when the shit hit the wall we could have avoided top up fees altogether.

And, whilst I'm on the subject of that, if anyone was listening to Radio 4 on Sunday night, (I think), and heard the incredibly balanced debate around the 50% rate that was broadcast, could they explain to me what the fuck the panelists were talking about when thay described the "incredible disincentive" such a rate would be to high paid professionals? How does that work then? You get offered a new job that pays £10K more and it takes you over £150k. Do you turn it down because the income over £150k would be taxed more highly? I don't think so!

As someone whose recently got a new job that took me into the 40% tax band (a much higher jump than the 40% to 50%) I didn't even fucking consider it. And I've never met anyone that has!

Total bollocks the whole argument.

[RobertT]

30 years ago I was 5, so my interest in politics was somewhat limited.  As someone who would be classified as working class (my dad was a caretaker of a school), I would be fine with paying towards any education beyond A Level, on a PAYE basis following the course.  As it is, I hit the middle ground and did a HND when I was 18, paid for myself to attend a year of ACCA study and exams, then went and got a full time job after woking part time through my HND and ACCA courses.  I seriously don't see the fuss and don't give a shit what happened 30 years ago in relation to what we should or shouldn't do now.  Kids went into the machinery less than 100 years ago.

[Don Rogers Shop]

It's not a fucking job interview Rob

[Phil_S]

It really fucks me off the way all of a sudden, because working class kids are going to university, we suddenly have a load of arguments about the utility of the degree courses that students are taking, and everyone has swallowed the argument that the individual should "make a contribution" to the cost of their education.
Why did nobody give a fuck about this 30 years ago, when it was largely the kids of the upper and middle classes whose educations our taxes were paying for? Those upper class twits haven't only just started taking their "history of art" degrees you know.
I could more easily swallow the argument that it's "fair" for those that benefit from higher education to pay something towards it, if that argument wasn't being propogated largely by the children of millionaires, all of whom went to univeristy for free, with the benefit of full maintenance grants, most after leaving public schools that cost tens of thousands a year to attend.
If these people genuinely believed it was fair for everyone that went to university to pay something for their education, then what the fuck are they planning to pay?

And if I hear one more Tory cunt trot out that tired old line about some cleaning lady paying their taxes to pay for a student to go to university for three years I will fucking chin someone! If some cleaning lady's taxes are paying for that, then it's your fault as a government for having a woefully unprogressive tax regime you fucker!

Perhaps if Labour had managed to find a fucking backbone and introduced the 50% tax rate when it came to power rather than as a last desperate measure when the shit hit the wall we could have avoided top up fees altogether.

And, whilst I'm on the subject of that, if anyone was listening to Radio 4 on Sunday night, (I think), and heard the incredibly balanced debate around the 50% rate that was broadcast, could they explain to me what the fuck the panelists were talking about when thay described the "incredible disincentive" such a rate would be to high paid professionals? How does that work then? You get offered a new job that pays £10K more and it takes you over £150k. Do you turn it down because the income over £150k would be taxed more highly? I don't think so!

As someone whose recently got a new job that took me into the 40% tax band (a much higher jump than the 40% to 50%) I didn't even fucking consider it. And I've never met anyone that has!

Total bollocks the whole argument.

I'm definitely working class, & went to a polytechnic. Yes it was free, & I didn't really appreciate the opportunity. Then most if not all were working class.

I fail to see actaully what "class" has to do with it. Nobody pays up front, nobody has to repay until earning over £21 k & it's written off after 30 years.

And yes, I think it's a very valid arguement about the cleaning lady. I have a daughter working as an apprentice on £95 per week, struggling financially & doing extra work in the evenings to make ends meet. She is below the new tax threshold, but will in 4 months time get a pay rise upto the minimum wage. Then she will be paying tax. I want to know why students expect her to subsidise their education which will benefit them. Some will go on to earn mega bucks & those who don't will end up paying little if anything.
As for the 50% tax band I have no real problem with that, & I also don't have a problem with them not getting child benefit either !
What makes me mad is that governments spend money & some claim it's a good thing. In my view goverment spending is extremely wasteful. ( eg.How many people are taxed,  then claim it back in tax credits).
 Many of those who complain when that spending is cut are those that are not contributing but recieving. This was very evident when the poll tax was introduced which was essentially a lot fairer than the council tax system.

 The welfare state is in my view meant to be a safety net, not a meal ticket.

[Simon Pieman]

Why should anyone subsidize anyone else? Why should someone pay for my healthcare or vice versa? Why should I pay for someone else's pension? It's how our system works, everyone is entitled to the same thing when they need it.

[Phil_S]

Why should anyone subsidize anyone else? Why should someone pay for my healthcare or vice versa? Why should I pay for someone else's pension? It's how our system works, everyone is entitled to the same thing when they need it.

The way I see it, the likes of a pension, healthcare & basic secondary education is something that all of us need. A university education is not needed by all & indeed not everyone is going to qualify for  it. 
I would also disqualify things like cosmetic surgery & sex cahnge operations from the NHS

[pauld]

I would also disqualify things like cosmetic surgery & sex cahnge operations from the NHS

That's a shame, I reckon you'd make a hot woman with enlargements

[Lumps]

I'm definitely working class, & went to a polytechnic. Yes it was free, & I didn't really appreciate the opportunity. Then most if not all were working class.

I fail to see actaully what "class" has to do with it. Nobody pays up front, nobody has to repay until earning over £21 k & it's written off after 30 years.

And yes, I think it's a very valid arguement about the cleaning lady. I have a daughter working as an apprentice on £95 per week, struggling financially & doing extra work in the evenings to make ends meet. She is below the new tax threshold, but will in 4 months time get a pay rise upto the minimum wage. Then she will be paying tax. I want to know why students expect her to subsidise their education which will benefit them. Some will go on to earn mega bucks & those who don't will end up paying little if anything.
As for the 50% tax band I have no real problem with that, & I also don't have a problem with them not getting child benefit either !
What makes me mad is that governments spend money & some claim it's a good thing. In my view goverment spending is extremely wasteful. ( eg.How many people are taxed,  then claim it back in tax credits).
 Many of those who complain when that spending is cut are those that are not contributing but recieving. This was very evident when the poll tax was introduced which was essentially a lot fairer than the council tax system.

 The welfare state is in my view meant to be a safety net, not a meal ticket.

I was going to reply to this on a rational point by point basis, but then I got to the bit about the poll tax and realised I'd be wasting my fucking time.

So, you think a progressive tax system for central government taxation is a good thing, as you support the 50% rate, but you think there should be a flat rate tax for local government taxation?

Isn't that a bit confused?

[Simon Pieman]

I wonder how many students won't pay off their loans because they're either under the threshold or don't manage it before it's written off. That's also going to cost the tax payer.

[Phil_S]

I was going to reply to this on a rational point by point basis, but then I got to the bit about the poll tax and realised I'd be wasting my fucking time.

So, you think a progressive tax system for central government taxation is a good thing, as you support the 50% rate, but you think there should be a flat rate tax for local government taxation?

Isn't that a bit confused?

No.

[pauld]

No.

I think he was hoping for a more detailed exposition of what on the face of it are two contrary positions. I just want to see you in a dress