Coronavirus

[Batch]

.... Like “good British common sense” never noticed it when I lived in England ....

I think it’s striking how many times this gets used. Now I’ve mentioned it bet you notice

Its not like we've totally not noticed.  It has been ridiculed on social media quite a lot, generally with a picture of a packed beach or mass gathering.
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Do you get much news coverage of the UK picture over there Mex? If so what's the tone?

I assume a bit of head shaking disbelief, but Spain didn't get away that lightly and need the tourists at some point  so I bet its not too critical

[pauld]

You do realise there is a middle ground, don't you? The government can have failed terribly and the figures cannot tell the true picture at the same time.

Yes of course I do. It was an effort at gallows humour. The "official" figures are a load of old wallop anyway, it's over 60,000 and rising. Second worst in the world after lunatic Trump.

[mexico red]

Its not like we've totally not noticed.  It has been ridiculed on social media quite a lot, generally with a picture of a packed beach or mass gathering.
--
Do you get much news coverage of the UK picture over there Mex? If so what's the tone?

I assume a bit of head shaking disbelief, but Spain didn't get away that lightly and need the tourists at some point  so I bet its not too critical

The news is pretty incredulous and the Spanish people I know of various ages cannot believe what the uk is doing. Yes the area I live in needs tourism but I think the uk could end up isolated. Scandinavians, Dutch Germans etc are already being targeted with adverts for spain in their own countries. Bet you’ve not seen one in the uk?
Yes spain was hit and hit bad but we locked down big time. Now we are seeing the rewards. Not one person has died in Malaga province or the costa del sol in over a week. There is less than 100 people in hospital in the whole of Andalusia, think Seville, Granada, Córdoba, Cadiz, Malaga, all big big cities. 100 total. Spain made mistakes but locked down and has got a sort of control on things

[Batch]

That's great news on the numbers. I wasn't criticising Spain, I meant Spain may be more empathic with the UK given we both had high death tolls.

But you are quite right - the responses were vastly different. I know which I'd have preferred.

And yeah, we may very well be isolated for a while. I've certainly seen no holiday advets.

The news is pretty incredulous and the Spanish people I know of various ages cannot believe what the uk is doing.

But we've "world leading" systems in place....

[tans]

Mother lives in the Algarve and she said it is pretty much back to normal there, have to wear masks in a shop but other than that pretty much normal. Restaurants, cafes open etc

[Bob's Orange]

We're supposed to be going to Porto for the Bank Holiday weekend at the end of August. Really hoping things don't get worse here and we can go. Our holiday this year may have to be a few weeks in Ireland. (without the creamy Guinness in the pubs, mores the pity!!)

[tans]

Yeah we were supposed to have flown out on wednesday. Will go october/november time now all being well

[Richie Wellen-Dowd]

Yes of course I do. It was an effort at gallows humour. The "official" figures are a load of old wallop anyway, it's over 60,000 and rising. Second worst in the world after lunatic Trump.

Fair enough if that was the intention, because the way it looked was sneering that anyone who suggested things can't accurately be compared is a little Englander who thinks we're the only ones counting properly.

And if you're thinking that I try to call you out more than most, that's precisely because i feel we're on the same side. We lost against Johnson and Trump in large part because we were so sure of ourselves that we mocked the other side rather than engage them. In my mind this helps drive away people who might otherwise come aboard, and it makes the left more of a cult as it seems to be becoming, where no difference of opinion is tolerated.

That's not to say Trump and Johnson will win again given how obviously they've been shown to be inept, but we can't take that chance.

[StfcRusty]

I think you’re making some fair and balanced points there.

But it’s almost impossible to engage with the people on here who dismiss anyone who is centre or left of centre as a Corbyn-loving commie. I’ve seen Paul try numerous times. And I’ve seen him criticise Corbyn (by policy not pointless name calling) but it makes no difference. I’ve asked several times in the past what ordinary working class people are identifying with when they support Johnson et all. Never been answered. Which is frustrating as I’m genuinely interested as it baffles me.

[Richie Wellen-Dowd]

I think you’re making some fair and balanced points there.

But it’s almost impossible to engage with the people on here who dismiss anyone who is centre or left of centre as a Corbyn-loving commie. I’ve seen Paul try numerous times. And I’ve seen him criticise Corbyn (by policy not pointless name calling) but it makes no difference. I’ve asked several times in the past what ordinary working class people are identifying with when they support Johnson et all. Never been answered. Which is frustrating as I’m genuinely interested as it baffles me.

I can see it would be impossible to convince those sorts of people, but that would be the equivalent of trying to persuade Paul to vote Tory. It's not the extremes you're after, it's the silent majority. His post was to someone of a similar political persuasion, and looked like mocking of anyone who even questions that train of thought. I see this mirrored to a much more serious extent on social media, where any thought outside of the orthodox will not be accepted. I realise it could seem I'm reading too much into a single jesting comment, but it's something ive noticed a lot.

As for working class support for Boris, I would say two things. Firstly, a lot of people don't pay that much attention, so if their personal circumstances don't change then they don't really notice. That doesn't make them bad people, we're all like that to an extent. The second is the belief that Corbyn or Labour's policies would leave the country as a whole poorer, so while they or their community might get more of a share, it would be of a smaller pie. There's more but those are my basic observations.

Just my two pence worth, right or wrong.

[Banker]

I’ve asked several times in the past what ordinary working class people are identifying with when they support Johnson et all. Never been answered. Which is frustrating as I’m genuinely interested as it baffles me.

Recognise that frustration all too well. In my case it's a lot closer to home; my 27 yr old son, a staunch Brexiter , bought a MAGA baseball cap on a recent visit over there, and he reckons it complements his Jacob Rees-Mogg t-shirt. I kid you not. It's not a wind-up the old man act either.

I scraped 3 'o' levels, left school at 16, he is bright, has a degree and all the benefit of t'interweb knowledge that I never had. A lot of Brexiters were dismissed as a bit 'thick', and for good reason, but he and many others aren't. We've had so many heated 'debates', he regularly sends Fox News video links, genuinely believing in that shit, and because I love him, definitely more tolerant of his extreme views than I would ordinarily. But....his logic, his reasoning and arguments just don't make any sense to me whatsoever, I don't get it, can't fathom it at all. Whenever I explain a logical and factual counter point, the shutters come down. As you say, it's baffling. I have wondered whether there is a genuine ideological split in the peoples of the US and UK, previously hidden, which all this populism has unearthed.

[Flashheart]

I fucking cringe when brexiteers are accused of being racist, just because they voted for Brexit.

Not accusing anybody here of doing that and I might have gone off on a tangent, but I 100% get where the well endowed one is coming from (pun very much intended).

[pauld]

Fair enough if that was the intention, because the way it looked was sneering that anyone who suggested things can't accurately be compared is a little Englander who thinks we're the only ones counting properly.

And if you're thinking that I try to call you out more than most, that's precisely because i feel we're on the same side. We lost against Johnson and Trump in large part because we were so sure of ourselves that we mocked the other side rather than engage them. In my mind this helps drive away people who might otherwise come aboard, and it makes the left more of a cult as it seems to be becoming, where no difference of opinion is tolerated.

That's not to say Trump and Johnson will win again given how obviously they've been shown to be inept, but we can't take that chance.

I think you're absolutely spot on in every point there, tbf.

[pauld]

Tory MP, Richard Tice (chair of Brexit Party) and his equally appalling partner Isabelle Oakeshott all attended a BBQ during the height of lockdown hosted by the deputy editor of the Spectator, the right-wing magazine where Mary Wakefield, wife and partner in crime of famous lockdown-breaker Dominic Cummings, is a commissioning editor. Which rather begs the question: was anyone at the Spectator *not* breaching lockdown? And why did the magazine (chairman Andrew Neil), instead of reporting these exclusives, actively aid the miscreants in covering up their breaches? It really is one rule for us plebs isn't it?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/05/tory-mp-bob-seely-attended-lockdown-barbecue-with-journalists?CMP=share_btn_tw

[BambooToTheFuture]

We've had so many heated 'debates', he regularly sends Fox News video links, genuinely believing in that shit, and because I love him, definitely more tolerant of his extreme views than I would ordinarily. But....his logic, his reasoning and arguments just don't make any sense to me whatsoever...

I have a similar relationship with my old man. Except he is the staunch Brexiteer/UKIPer/Trump fan, et al.

Although I'm becoming increasingly less tolerant of his more extreme views. I know I will be wrong whatever approach I take and we always end up falling out. We can handle heated debate but the shutters come down as you reference. It then instantly becomes personal attacks and digging up shit that really bears no relevance. Something like "...you didn't wash the dishes in 2001" (there are much worse examples I can asure). It's high end deflection because it's hugely baffling in the moment. Not sure what the fallacy is but certain Flashheart will know.

Dad seems to think he has to counter me more because he thinks I'm besotted with Corbyn. That's not the case. I've voted Labour only once in any form of election, yet apparently I'm the one who doesn't listen.

Banker, with your son do you think it is more of an aesthetic in part (the MAGA cap and the Rees-Mogg Tee), like he knows it will cause a response? In some ways a form of manipulation. Not necessarily targeted at yourself but from people who fall either side of opinion. It is true the more clever the person the better at manipulation they are capable of. Sometimes the "aesthetic" is part of their game. Knowing they don't even have to speak to cause problems. A la Trump.

Going back to my Dad (I can't control his Political persuasion), I do worry. He was mostly always a Liberal voter, even before the incarnation of the Liberal Democrats but continued to whilst Ashdown and then Kennedy were leaders. The reason I worry is because if there was a resurgence of a far right (some would argue that is where the Tories are now) group like the BNP, I'm pretty certain he would vote for them. He'd refutely deny it but he'd vote for such because he'd be sucked into whatever sweetener they promised. Likely something that is to detriment of immigrants.

If that kind of mindset is replicated then there really is no way of educating people. More so because if you don't appeal to a voters more closeted thoughts then it doesn't matter how good your manifesto may be.