Thetownend.com

I've been following this debate closely, for personal reasons.  I know it's not of much interest to many down here - and, sure enough, independence wouldn't have the same effect on people down here - but the changes would nevertheless be far reaching.

Reason for starting this thread is that I sense a shift.  I'm broadly in the 'Better Together' camp, but that said I've been shocked at just how negative the Better Together campaign has been.  Instead of stressing the common ground: family ties, common cultural reference points, shared history etc., all I'm hearing from the Better Together campaign is scare story after scare story about what might happen if Scotland goes it alone.  It's really pissing a lot of people up there off.  The campaign strategy is fucked.

Pains me to say it, but the grass roots campaign on the Yes side is winning hands down, both in terms of its message and the numbers of people getting involved.  There are still questions to answer (not least on currency etc.), but they're winning the popular battle - and for the first time, I'm starting to think that the Yes side might win this.  The Better Together campaign is really going to have to up its game.

Local meetings can generate into shouting and abuse in the isle of Bute area. So I've been told by my cousin who moved there 15 years ago.
They also agree with what you say about the better together campaign.
The one thing you cannot allow is the Tories going North and preaching to the Scots after what Thatcher did to them. Long memories and all that.

Maybe the Scots should have a close look at what's happened in Wales since they had their measure of independence.

Their Labour run assembly has returned them to huge waiting times for hospital admissions with their NHS Trusts behaving like Stafford.

They have slumped down the league table in education and there is the curious 'law' that any new homes built must have a £3000 sprinkler system installed.

On a personal level I would be glad to see them get their independence - but if I were Scottish I'd be shitting myself

First sensible post on the subject this site has seen.

Said for a long while that the no campaign are fucking their message up. The 'yessers' are doing a great job in their work, their points are positive and they take time to try educate people rather than preach.

Have to say most of my family in the borders are no's, all but one and he's a jambo so not sure if his vote counts or not ;-).

Going to be an interesting few months.

I'm a Park North boy living in East Lothian for the last 20 years so pretty close to me as well.  One of my "yes" supporting mates summed it up by saying that no country has ever had everything cast in stone before becoming independent but that no country has ever wanted to go back after independence.  That said, I think he's wrong.  The "yes" campaign are making far too many assumptions about the Pound, EU membership being a "given", potentially defaulting on Scotland's share of UK debt, oil revenues and you could go on.  Potential job losses in key sectors such as finance could be massive and are unlikely to be offset by incoming investment.

I also detect that the "yes" campaign is gaining momentum and that the "better together" campaign is far too negative.  Cameron making his key speech from London was a howler of a mistake and a pr disaster.  As someone who actually lives in Scotland I'm really starting to fear that there will be a "yes" vote but hopefully I'm wrong..

I'm supportive so I have a somewhere to go too when the Tories have finished fucking us up.

If the Scots vote for independance then independance is what it should be,which means

There own armed forces...why should a UK force protect them if they don't want to be part of the UK.

Also there own health service....the English have propped it up for to long.

Disgusting that the poor and ill English people pay for there medicine but the Scots and Welsh do not.

A broader view has me thinking it will be a no vote anyway.

Its interesting to see Salmond think he can totally dictate the terms in which Scotland depart as if it doesn't affect the British economy - eg if they don't get the pound they won't take on any national debt.
If I was Scottish I'd be voting no. I would be very, very scared about taking the independence step. Braveheart and reality may be two very different things.

The Scots will never vote yes in a million years.
They like to talk independence, but when it comes to it, they will bottle it.

They talk with their hearts and vote with their wallets.

I regularly work in Scotland, and I am growing ever more weary of the thinly veiled hatred (often not veiled at all) most of them have for England

"I hate England and the English...........but you're OK, nothing personal" is typical of the sort of comments.

When I point out that in that case they should vote yes, most of them say no chance, because they will be worse off.

I really, really wish they vote yes and go it alone
It will be interesting to see if they still blame us for everything when it all goes tits up

Problem is that Salmond is vaguely charismatic/interesting.  The Scottish "yes" figureheads aren't.

His assertion that Scotland will default on its debt is laughable but he's actually serious.  It's usually followed by a claim that RBS 's problems were entirely caused in London and are nothing to do with the Scots, that Europe is going to welcome an independent Scotland without any preconditions etc all of which are based on hope rather than fact.  The yes campaign completely overlook the fact that there is a UK election in 2017 and their expectations that London would simply roll over in the event of. "Yes" vote are wrong.  It would be political suicide for a London government to do so.

Chalkies is spot on when he says that braveheart and reality are very different.  Nice Bloke Really has a point in that there may well be people up here who claim they will (or have) voted yes but in reality bottle it.  But at the same time you have those who actually do believe that they will be better off in an independent scotland.  Sad but true.

This is pretty much how I feel.

Having spent 4 months in Edinburgh last year I have seen both sides of this argument close up.

Yes a lot of Scots hate the English, in spirit, but in actual fact they don't really hate us at all and are a very generous nation. They love to moan about everything, that is just how they do things and moaning about the English is something they do very very well.

Of the people I spoke to they were about 90% in favour of the yes vote because the yes campainers have done a great job in selling it to the nation of Scotland.

In actual fact a lot of this comes down to the fact that they don't want the Tories in charge of their country, they consider them to be public school educated toffs who do not care about Scotland.....this is actually true.....but they seem to forget that these toffs in government dont give a shit about anything outside of the home counties of London.

I am concerned they think they will still be part of the UK armed forces etc, still want all the benefits of the UK government like the Pound.

They can't have it as it is British, and they choose to not be part of Britain then they cannot hope to keep the pound and all the underpinning of the economy that it does bring.

Also Scotland per head of the population have an annual spend per person in Scotland is currently over £10,200 compared to England spending of £8,300 per person.

Where is this extra funding coming from? Gas and Oil will not cover anywhere near that shortfall, but it will also stop the English subsidising the Scots so maybe the average spend will go up for the English? no of course it won't but we will no longer be subsidising the Scottish free healthcare, free dentistry and free University places....who will pay for that? we don't get it now so why should the Scots expect us to fund it?

For that reason I am in the Yes camp, from an English point of view, yes its very simlplistic but if it comes down to money, which all government issues and problems come down to eventually then we as a nation can't be worse off than we are now.

Nationalism is a nasty right wing ideology, which tends to bring out the worst in people....and the Sweaties have got an unpleasant sectarian divide which could erupt.  But fair play to Salmond he's made it pretty clear that an independent Scotland would need some significant immigration to make it viable, so you'd be welcomed by the state, not sure about the people.

I've posted many times that I think the Sweaties have to go for this, and it opens up all sorts of fun possibilities....the first of which is Cameron being labelled as the man who broke the Union...him being the leader of the Conservative and Unionist party.

I'd expect a wave of English nationalism to follow, leading to a withdraw vote on the EU...which leads to the scenario of England going out and the Sweaties trying to go in... and join the Euro, have to accept Schengen etc.

What happens to Trident, though will be thing that causes most fun.....essentially the Sweaties don't want it...so where can we house these beasts in England? I'm not sure there is anywhere.

Uncle Sam won't be best pleased by this, but maybe England will apply to become the 51st State to cheer him up.

My mum's side of the family are from Aberdeen and they'll all be voting no as they can see the bigger picture.

In the grand scheme of things Scotland offer very little on their own and you've already got large companies saying they'll pull out of Scotland if they do go independent.

If the vote is yes though it needs to be full independence, no pound (despite Salmond's claim it's as much there's as ours), no access to the NHS, no support from our armed forces, cut-off from the national grid unless they pay us for any cross border power (which they will have to as they want to shut Torness & Hunterston nuclear power stations) and in addition they do get their share of the national debt. They will have a substantial funding deficit so you wonder how long they can actually survive. What sort of credit rating they will be given by the world bank as this will ultimately impact on the amount of money they can borrow to prop themselves up. I think the days of free prescriptions will rapidly disappear!

Finally Salmond seems to think they will just be accepted into the EU, can't see that happening. They'll need to apply and wait like the likes of Bulgaria and Romania. This could kill them before their 'independence' even starts as it'll really harm their ability to do business on the international stage.

And we'll be £53,000,000 per day better off when we withdraw from the EU. Plus any punitive "fines" imposed for not toeing the line on the reams and reams of legislation churned out daily. Before anyone drones on about job losses etc if we withdraw, that's a load of bollocks (similar to your employer droning on about how good the job is you have and constantly putting doubt into your mind that it's better to stay where you are as the grass is not greener outside) Really? Really? Bollocks, utter bollocks. As i have said before the EU rely heavily on exports to the UK and they'll be cutting off their noses to spite their faces if they install trade tarrifs to us. And regarding jobs, our flexible labour and business friendly legislation is the reason why (not withstanding the only decent labour policy of staying out the Euro, mainly due to Brown and Bliar hating each other) standing us in good stead to soapy tit wank at the over regulated and inflexible working legislation of our continental cousins. Scotland go, slap us in the face, no worries but you'll be strangled by Europe and kow towing at everything they say and ask you to do to keep you in the manor of which you have become acustomed too.

I personally think they will stay, narrowly but stay none the less and i welcome that.  

A narrow vote - either way - is what I would fear most as a Scot.  The legacy of the vote could be a Scotland bitterly divided against itself.

A lot of Reg's scenarios ringing true for me as well...where as just a short while ago I'd have dismissed them as fanciful.

Nationalism is a nasty right wing ideology, which tends to bring out the worst in people....

Not like the soviet Union, North Korea, Cuba and some South American countries then?

The irony is despite this Salmond is saying they'll still build all of our Naval fleet.... I'm afraid you can't have your cake and eat it so I'd like to think we'd move the builds to the likes of Barrow where the Astute class subs are built which could spell the end of their remaining ship yards such as Rosyth..... That'll go down well!

I don't really give a fuck myself, though I wish they'd either fuck off and become independent or shut the fuck up about it.

I can see it turning to shit if they do go for it though. Can't see them getting EU membership easily, if only because Spain will block it to avoid a precedence being set. They ain't going to get the pound, only way it would work is with very strict rules which they won't agree to. Likely a number of big business will relocate, even if it's just their head office or legal home.

I'm not sure how hard the Conservatives are trying with the no campaign. Will be good for them if it happens, as it will reduce the number of MP's Labour have got giving them a better chance of a majority in the future.

We can do the build in Barrow....but I'm don't know of anywhere suitable for housing the subs in England.  I'd imagine though we'd end up with Faslane, becoming something like Sevastopol or Guantanamo Bay....a military base in a foreign country. The Americans just wouldn't allow it to happen any other way.

There's always Portsmouth I suppose, there's big plans for Barrow though as part of the Trident successor programme though so you never know. My point is though I'd like to think they won't be building our naval fleet if they go it alone.
I wonder if they'll want one of the new aircraft carriers for what will be their non existant Air Force....

I think one of the positives flowing from Sweatie independence, will be the break up of GB's oversized military...

I don't think he said it was the only thing that did. Marxism is a nasty left-wing ideology which also tends to bring out the worst in some people. Happy now?

All about balance my dear chap rather than me being happy.

Nice try Reg.

In my opinion the narrative of the post war years which I've lived through (and there's been a lot of them) is a story of trying to find a place in the world order, against a backdrop of the break up of Empire.  The break up of the UK is in many ways a continuation of the process, and must inevitably lead to a further diminution of influence at the world table....for example how can UK sit as a permanent member of the Security Council at the UN in its reduced form?

The obvious answer is....it can't. I suspect even the likes of Cameron realise this, but can't quite bring themselves to face the reality, that our future military involvement should be as part of European force semi-independent of the US.

Although having said that Cameron has signed an agreement with the Surrender Monkeys establishing close military co-operation...we're going to develop an Anglo French drone..a lovely weapon.

I went to Scotland yesterday.

It was allright.

The thing that has really struck me in all this, is that when it comes to questions regarding the Pound and other assumptions Salmond has made a big part of his propaganda, I don't believe the Yes campaign really believe what they are saying. I've not been following it massively I'll admit that, but whenever I've seen interviews with Salmond, he sounds far too much someone who is trying to convince himself what he's saying is true. He's almost like a Town fan trying to convince himself that we can still make the playoffs.

I don't really know enough about the ins and outs to properly have an opinion. From what I've read I think that Scotland will be a hell of a lot worse off, and for that I think they'll vote with their heads rather than their hearts and remain with us. I can see a massive divide in Scotland coming either way though...

Question is (bearing in mind I know nothing about this,  have read more on here than anywhere else, and don't have much, if any, interest).....

What is the main reason for wanting independence?
To break away from a union that is not wanted?
Or, because Scotland will benefit?
Or, something else?

I'm English,  but I have Irish , Scottish and I believe some Welsh roots too. I go to work,  I pay my bills,  I have to put up with the same shite that most people have to put up with,  and I have a social life. I can honestly say that my nationality rarely comes into my life, why should it?

You've just got to look at football to see that the Sweaties have been in decline in the 21st century....since the tentative efforts by the Auld Firm to get their noses in the Prem trough were rebuffed, has finally convinced many north of the border, that we don't really want them, so they might as well go it alone.

They've also probably noticed that the Irish have done OK out of independence....having some very cosy arrangements in their favour, and as we did with the Sweaties over the Darien fiasco, doing the neighbourly and bailing them out when the shit hits the fan.  With the Irish recently to the tune of £17 billion GBP of yours and mine bill paying...

I can't see them voting yes, there isn't a clear majority now and I think people naturally tend to get more cautious when they actually vote on the "better the devil you know" principle.

Whether a vote that included England would say yes is another matter.....

As already said somewhere in thread I think, the big problem for England would be the cast iron Tory majority that would be created in a UK without Scotland.

We've not had anything on this thread for a while and not long to go now...

I noticed, that Sky have been putting Sweatie matches on their "new" European football channel....could be they're anticipating Jockoland becoming a Euro using country like the others shown there.

The government has been doing a bit of anticipating of it's own....and are going to shift Trident to Plymuff...SWS and PlymRed will be pleased.

Fatbasher, proved to have a very thin skin for a leading forum right winger, a bit of half hearted bullying and  :eekout:

Just what is the benefit to us of them remaining in the Union?

Fuck the Sweaties - get out of Europe Union - annex Cornwall

Salmond apparently got spanked in the debate last week, especially after saying they will keep the pound, despite being told they won't by all three main parties south of the border.

If they do opt out at least there's a silver lining - we won't have to call Andy Murray as GB!!  He's a Scot and a fucking miserable one at best!!

Oil, mostly.

Take it off 'em by force.

They'll have no army

whisky?

I've got a radiation suit ready, just in case.

Very wise, I'd imagine Swindon is just about down wind from Plymuff.

We'd have nowhere safe to keep our nukes.

Wales will do.

Too close for comfort

Milford Haven was previously considered, but now a no-no, because of the amount of oil takers kicking around, nukes and tankers not being a good mix.

Here's a radical idea, when the Sweaties get rid, we could scrap Trident.

The chances of the "Sweaties" voting for independence are virtually zero, referendums have a built in status quo effect of around 20%. The independent vote has hardly if ever been ahead in the polls - let alone a 20% lead it needs just to stand still. Then take into account Salmond's massive inability to solve the currency problem it will almost certainly prove to be a damp squid and we move on as normal.

Yep, all squids are damp!

I think that was basically the Welsh government mooting the idea to create jobs in the area. Milford Haven was never great, but it's becoming more and more a ghost town

Things seem to be hotting up now the 18th approaches.

I am sure that if England was allowed to vote on this, it would result in a resounding YES.

Hope the sweaties get what they want - and deserve!

What happens to the union flag?  :sherlock:

Take the blue out

I hope we get a referendum to tell them to  stick  keeping our pound up their kilts

Things are hotting up in Scotland now.  Even if it's a no vote (and I think it will be, narrowly) it ain't going to be a pleasant place going forward...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bDi1OXJn4Vw

Salmond has said the Queen will remain head of state, so the flag will be the same

Not all in Scotland wear kilts or are even Scottish ! Some of us are ardent Town Fans!
Voting NO to keep my job thanks . Salmond is a prize arsehole who is currently tearing the country apart
Hope he gets what he deserves!

T'was tounge in cheek Mr squirrel. Though I do think the Scots at work should apply for a visa if the vote is yes. British jobs for British people ;)

I know one Scottish family. That's all my connection. They have two sons. The eldest is called Ryan, the other Bryan.

True story that.

still 5-1 on for the Nay Laddies

The 3 Jocks I know are all saying naw. Much the same when you tell them its their round.

The gap is closing for the Yes side, but the game changer needed to get them across the line hasn't yet happened.  Ultimately, I think Salmond's failure to address the currency question will sink independence...but not my much.  The debate in the closing weeks is going become ever more tetchy and fractious.  And I have a strong feeling that Salmond has a few aces up his sleeve as well.

God forbid you get a vote of 51% or 52% either way.  The place is going to be divided against itself for decades.

I would prefer the Union to remain intact but I understand entirely why Scots would wish to be self-governing and to distance themselves from Westminster control.  But, with independence comes great responsibility, and I don't think the extent of that responsibility has been clearly explained to the Scots voters.  If I was being asked to vote on something as important as this, I would want a clear, unequivocal statement of every one of the implications of a 'Yes' vote.  With only two weeks to go, I don't think the Scots have got that clarity yet, there are too many 'unknowns' and Salmond is effectively asking them to vote with their hearts and not their heads.  That doesn't seem to me to be a very good way to start.

Tunnock's are supporting the No campaign, so I can still eat those guilt-free.

If the Yes campaign wins it, I look forward to the shit storm headed their way. There seems to be an awful lot of hope involved with them keeping the pound (from which they can fuck right off, independence means exactly that, cut the ties and go out on your own. Picking and choosing which bits you want from Britain is not the way to do it, thanks) and getting into the EU, despite the EU saying they don't want any new members any time soon.

I suspect they'll continue EU membership rather than leave - the issue will be fudged (Greenland remained members of the then EEC for some years after Home Rule from Denmark 1979). The question will be though whether Scotland retains the UK's opt outs, one of which is obviously the Euro. For continued membership Scotland could find itself having to sign up to the Euro instead of keeping the pound.

Spot on.

But I don't think Salmond feels he can lose....

People vote no and he is that plucky Scottish freedom fighter who put the scots destiny in their own hands which they failed to take up... people vote yes and he's the man who achieved independence! 

Actually wonder what his ideal outcome is, as a yes could unleash an entire shit storm which may upset his legacy and ego?

I don't have a strong opinion either way but have Scottish friends who are both sides of the argument and whilst normally very mild mannered it's all getting a bit unpleasant and personal already,  not suggesting a civil war but can see it getting rather unpleasant over next few months both before and after the vote.

Once the Yes vote,  has been secured, it will only be a matter of time before Salmond mounts a Putin style Ukraine campaign to reclaim Berwick.

The best result for Salmond is a narrow loss. that way he doesn't have to deliver but can then screw the uk into further favours by threatening another referendum. Its fucking disgusting the more favourable terms the Welsh and Scottish get out of us already, prescriptions, tuition.   

The Barnett formula should be a national scandal imo. Not sure many people realise it exists.

Berwick is still at war with Russia anyway.

Yes...think I've seen something about that on Coast.  Well Salmond is an admirer of Putin, as is Nigel Farage....given that Clacton-on-Sea looks like it wants to unilaterally cede from the EU, after the forthcoming bye-election, anything is possible.

Squeaky bum time....the recent poll showing Yes need 3%, has put the frighteners on.  The Pound has dropped, Cameron has held his hands up and said "nothing to do with me gov" so wont resign, and the military top brass have woken up to the fact that their previous fiefdom will be fucked...with mutterings about Uncle Sam not being happy to lose strategic sites in Jockoland.

So talk of deals....we'll have a currency union if you keep Trident etc.

Yes is really a no brainer for the Sweaties, it's going to have a profound impact on the rest of the UK, more politically than economically.

Interesting times ahead....the next port of call, being the issue of the EU....my own view is that yes, will mean a staunching of the Tory right, and likely our closer integration with Europe.

If it was, you would see a 100% lead in the polls for the Yes side.  Voting for independence would have both advantages and disadvantages.  The polls suggest that this issue is anything but a 'no brainer'.

It's a fair point, and ultimately the economic cost of independence will fall more heavily north of the border, therefore those with more to lose will be in the no camp, but it's a vote for the future and an independent Scotland will be better able to construct a society to meet the needs of the likely global issues.

So how much of the "No" vote do you think is simply a "get stuffed England" vote, rather than a seriously concidered vote?

One would hope that a Yes vote ultimately means a total separation, but I suppsoe its a near certainty that it will force compromises for both sides.

Wonder if Wales and N. Ireland will start to consider their place in the union. Presumably it would be fairly difficult for them to become self sufficient though.

Scotland has the oil which presumably can support it as an independent country.

Not sure leek power and the power of bigotry can support Wales and Norn Iron to be honest.

3% is still quite a gap, will probably come down the the undecided vote on the day. People ultimately tend to play it safe when they are undecided and stick with what they know.

The Yes campaign will need to appeal to their sense of patriotism

That's a point, what part of the seas and oceans constitute Scottish waters?

It's all these unintended consequences that bother me.  Only after a Yes vote would be find out the true extent of the ramifications of independence.  Some would be beneficial maybe; a lot would not.

Wales could never go it alone; nor would a majority in Wales ever want it to.  Their fortunes are far too closely bound up with England's.  You can't even travel from the south of Wales to the north, realistically speaking, without heading in to England, travelling north and then back in to Wales.  (Unless you're Reg.  He'd choose to give the M5 a miss, probably, and yomp over mid Wales with a stick and a dog.)

Something I hadn't thought about before but I have 3 trips a year to Edinburgh and always come back with Jockanese money which most places happily take down here in Somerset.

If the Scots are no longer part of the British Pound, which is a very high probability then I guess we will have to exchange their currency at the border or pay into a bank with the relevant exchange rate being taken into account.

That said out of everybody I have asked while up there last month only 2 out of about 20 people have said they will vote yes as there are far too many uncertainties in the Yes vote argument and at the end of the day the Scots are not voting out of the UK as such they are voting out of having the Tories as government as so few of them actually voted them in, which is the real crux of the matter.

Surely, if it is a yes vote, the Tories will forever be in power.

Labour hoovers up nearly every Scottish constituency and without them they can never win an English election (plus a few taffy ones)

Easily solved: just win a referendum to join Scotland.

(http://i.imgur.com/3WkwXkA.gif)

Not so....the majorities of the Blair years would have stood with or without Scotland, however it's fair to say Cameron would have cracked a majority in 2010, without Scotland, but given the input of Clegg's mob, it would have made fuck all difference.

NI is interesting as its Protestant people are mostly of Scottish extraction, and would maybe wish to align themselves more closely with the Sweaties. However there's no way the Sweaties could afford it, so I'd suspect, we'd look towards Dublin and a united Ireland, as the only thing making sense.

The A470 is your friend say from Newport, up via the A4042 to Abergavenny, which is mostly dualled. A40 to Brecon, then the A470 to Builth, on to Rhyader...Lanidloes, Dolgellau, Festiniog, Betws-y-Coed, to hit the north coast near Colwyn.

Lovely I tells you, all to the tune of Route 66.

I've done quite a bit of walking, (sans dog) in that part of the world. There is an unofficial route called the Cambrian Way, which I once read about, designed to go over the high places from the south coast to the north coast.

http://www.cambrianway.org.uk/route.htm

The Protestants in Northern Ireland identify more with Britain, than Scotland. You see loads of Union flags flying over there, not many (If any) Saltires.

The whole notion of sovereign nations, much like religions, is faintly ridiculous to me. Both cause untold misery and suffering and for what?

But when Scotland goes the Union is broken....they can still stay loyal to the Crown, as the Sweaties aren't angling for a Republic yet,  but you don't get the massive Orange marches like the ones happening in Edinburgh I believe this very weekend, happening here.

If Scotland wants EU membership after "independence" that will be largely irrelevant. There would be no such thing as Scottish waters...

Can someone explain how a yes vote will result in Scotland being more independent than they are at present?

They plan to enter in to a currency union with the remains of the UK. If that was to happen they would have to cede some financial control and decisions, being such a small element of the currency union they won't have much say on important matters. The same would apply if they go in to the EU currency union. If anything they'd have less input and control over important financial decisions than they do at the moment, as Westminster really won't give a shit as votes aren't at stake.

The same argument applies to EU membership. They will go from being a part of the 3rd largest EU state to the 20th, whilst the UK will drop form 3rd to 4th. They will likely have to cede more power to the EU than the UK does, they also won't have much of an argument to fight anything as the EU (and especially the larger EU states) won't give a flying fuck what they think or say.

Seems to be nothing more than the ideology of being an independent country, rather than whether it will be good for them.

I really hope it's a yes vote myself. The sooner they fuck off the better.

So why is the oil classed as belonging to Scotland?   ???

Technically it belongs to the dinosaurs, but nobody ever thinks of the dinosaurs.


#dinorightsnow

I read about this recently.  While it does seem a little unfair that a resource that currently benefits everyone in the UK would be appropriated by an independent Scotland, that is how these things work.  Countries all around the world are assumed to 'own' the resources within their borders and territorial waters.  If Scotland split from the rest of the UK, it would take about 90% of the UK's remaining oil reserves with it.

Seems a little unfair to me.  You hear Nationalists sometimes parroting 'It's Scotland's oil!', but I never remember anyone arguing 'It's Yorkshire's coal' back when Yorkshire had coal.  But that's how it has to work.

They can have the oil. It's not even a nationalised industry and makes fuck all for the state other than a bit of tax anyway.

When, and it is rather than if now, Sweaties get independence, then they may be able to vote in a government which does nationalise such things as resources/ railways; sorts out land ownership and can pitch defence spending at an appropriate level for a small European offshore island.

And how exactly are they going to pay for it? They can't afford to buy the industry back can they?

This is the point though, they will be able to decide if and how they want to do things, after the cold hand of Westminster is removed.

A 16 year old who leaves home because they want to be independent has the freedom to choose whatever they want, but not many options.

A 16 year old who has just left home has the freedom to choose to go and live in a 100 room mansion if he wants to. He almost certainly doesn't have that option.

The freedom to choose and real options are different things.

The independence debate has confused these two ideas.

But we're not talking about 16 year old kids here, apart from maybe those who've got a vote in the referendum.

This may help...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/analogy

Salmond has said the Bank of England and the pound are shared assets of the UK and Scotland must be given it's share.

I wonder how he'll react if Cameron demands the same deal with the natural resources in Scotland?

When the actual fine print is agreed on the split up, I suspect a lot of people in Scotland will be somewhat upset that they don't get everything that Salmond has promised them.

So Scotland may 'own' the Oil Fields.

But who owns the rigs and the rest of the infrastructure?

In point of fact the UK's offshore oil is owned by the Crown....as will still be the case on independence.

In which case any Scot's claims to 'own the oil fields' is a bit of a damp squib?

Another advantage for the Sweaties, is that they will be able to devise a written constitution, something the UK lacks, where procedure is carried out by convention, much of it archaic.

In our unwritten constitution, Parliament undertakes the elements nominally ceded to the Crown, like defence and justice, although of course Scotland has always had its own legal system

Therefore the Scottish Parliament can carry on this tradition if they wish, or write something new into their constitution.

I don't see how the crown. or more likely non-Scottish corporations,  owning the rigs and what not is an advantage for the Scots.

The Crown sells licences for mineral extraction rights, and taxes gas/oil produced.

The Scots benefit from rig equipment, building and maintenance etc

But they still have to pay for it.

How is that a benefit?

I'm not sure what your point is.....consider this, SY's lot who produce slightly more oil, but not a lot more oil than UK (most of which is in Scotland's domain) have put the proceeds into a fund, for the long term benefit of its people which now stands at $660 billion...that is the sort of benefit which could accrue from independence.

The Scot's don't own the rigs that extract the oil?

Well chaps I don't come on here very often - but did see Ernie Hunt's free kick all those years ago and still a big Town fan.
I have lived in Orkney since 2003, and I am voting yes.
Since oil/gas was extracted from Scottish waters the TAX revenue (only) went to the UK Exchequer and still does. The resulting money goes into the fucking UK gluepot and gets distributed how the UK government feel at the time.
When we vote yes all the tax revenue will come to Scotland and we can decide how to distribute it fairly.
There are new massive oil/gas fields off the East and West coats of Scotland but this will be a bonus.
We have already reached 50% renewable generation - in 10 years or so Scotland will be energy independent with renewables (hydro for storage, wind, wave and tidal) and no nuclear - and we can the sell you all the oil and gas you want.
I am half Scottish but I do feel we cannot miss this massive opportunity - though the next 2 years might be a little rocky.
Unless the whole world system doesn't crash Scotland will be better than fine.   :)

Two years? Try twenty.

2 or 20, this is a vote forever.

What with events in the Middle East, Ukraine, Hong Kong/China and the Eurozone, I wouldn't be too confident about the global situation.

Hiding under a rock and hoping those problems go away isn't much of a plan though.

Russia, China, Iran and others must be rubbing their hands together at the prospect that the UK is about to take itself out of the game, hobble itself economically and stop being a power worth thinking about.

I don't really buy that, either. This feels, at best, 30 years of an awkward, hopeless drifting separation followed by an expensive reunification. At both ends of this Scotland will need a massive bailout.

Just like the Royal Bank Of Scotland...

Exactly this. Both Scotland and the "rump UK" will be poorer and weaker without each other. I'm not sure who's more deluded, the Scots who think this is a good time to be turning into a micro-state or the Southerners shouting as loud as they can "we're better off without them, can't wait for them to leave", like a jilted boyfriend pretending he'd gone off her anyway. Madness.

I expected better from you...the impending yes vote gives us a chance to realign our dysfunctional politics...that can only be a good thing.

Never had you down as a Tory, Reg.  Realignment down here (after a Yes vote) would mean centre of gravity shifting to right.  Although extent to which it would happen probably overstated by some.

The world will be a more divided place after a Yes vote.  That's not a positive.  One more international border.  And plenty of families affected...including mine.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed now for a narrow No vote and subsequent federalisation of the UK (Scotland, Wales, NI, English Regions) as pushed by the Lib Dems.  I'm all for local democracy, but some things dealt with Better Together.  And a federal set up would achieve all that.

Realign it to a permanent Tory majority? Or maybe realign to Tories vs SomeKindOfUKIPStyleHardRight Opposition? Yeah, sounds ideal, Reg. Our political system needs sorting out, but not like that. I've never been a fan of "Anything's got to be better than this" because things quite often can, and do, get a good deal worse.

I'm with Ardiles.

Sadly, I think there is a great deal of 'anything's got to be better than this' informing the debate in Scotland.  'Westminster' has become a byword for corruption, something bad that has to be replaced.  And Westminster politics has done itself no favours recently, there's no denying it.  But what a lot of folk fail to see, I think, is that politics everywhere is corrupt.  It's not uniquely a Westminster phenomenon.

French politics is corrupt, as is Italian politics, US politics...corruption everywhere.  After a Yes vote, voters in Scotland will have 'freed' themselves from Westminster - and I give it no more than a couple of years before the penny drops and they realise that their own home-grown Holyrood politicians are every bit as shifty.  They'll have achieved fuck all.  Out of the frying pan...

It's very easy for you Orcadians to vote yes ,as you will be mostly sheltered by the consequences of the yes camp winning.(That's about the only thing you can shelter under up there  :D)
Most of the claims and counter claims are based on guesswork nothing more, but there are some glaring facts, a couple of which are,
North Sea oil will not last forever, what then?
Thousands of jobs WILL be lost in the event of independence.

Do we really wish to risk our pensions and jobs for the sake of a bloody flag, because that is the bottom line. that is what it is all about. (You can still keep your nice new flag by the way!)

If you want to see Scotland in 20 years time under independence take a trip down the road to Skara Brae!

We're Better Together......Vote No..

Interesting, very specific point. Was talking to a friend who works on renewables in Glasgow and he was saying that major international investors have put most things on hold until the vote. A yes vote probably means he loses his job, his firm moves to England and all the wind farms the Uk govt is currently planning to put in Scotland go to Northumberland, or else to Denmark.

I've been to Skara Brae....wonderful place. I suspect in the neolithic, the Orcadians were aware of their fellow inhabitants of these islands, and got on just fine with them.....it was a bit later that it started getting nasty.

And then we will get Scottish health tourists when their own health service has been truly fucked up just like the fucking Taffs.

If they really want independence then it should be the full monty - with absolutely no handouts of any description from south of the border.

Makes no difference to me if they go it alone, I hope they do.

Fuck 'em

Links back to Wiltshire too, because the Orcadians were coming down to Stonehenge and its surroundings regularly, leaving their crummy smashed pottery around, and slaughtering pigs for laughs, as you do.

Yeah, but just because there's Orcadian pottery, doesn't necessarily mean there were Orcadians....

Saving the Scottish NHS is in fact one of the reasons many are giving for voting Yes.  It's a murky debate.

Isn't the outcome of this vote just going to polorise the camps in Scotland into nationalist and unionist camps whatever the outcome with the losing side taking a hardline going forward as their opinion has been overlooked?

Not saying it will reach the same intensity but it does look like it could possibly lead to something like what's happened in Ireland previously?

Not that murky.

"But as things stand now, NHS England can use more private providers, introduce more charges or stand on its head, but there is no pressure on Scotland to follow suit and no reason why health funding to Scotland will be affected."

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-scotlands-nhs-threat-westminster/18821

In a word, yes.  It's not going to be pretty, whatever the outcome.  The prospect of either side winning emphatically is very remote.  There's going to be a massive sense of grievance hanging in the air for quite some time.

But that works both ways as the Barnett formula has ensured that public budgets/spending per head has been proportionally higher in Scotland since the late 70's (and remains so).

Is the vote open to everyone who lives in Scotland or just those born there

It's done on residency.  Scots living outside Scotland don't get to vote.

UK will be exceeding Germany in 4-5 years as top EU dog economically cos of the City of London dominance. May now not occur ( so quickly) if Scotland secedes but we wont miss oil revenue as much as people think. I'm going to move to the Shetlands and kick up a fuss to go back to Norwegian ownership as it was in the 16th century - I'll think you'll find it's Shetland oil actually.

David Cameron will finally find his place in history. The Prime Minister who presided over the destruction of the UK. He should fucking swing for that. Swing alongside Blair and Brown too.

Next stop, NI, closely followed by Wales, we're all part of the European Union now...

If the Norwegians pay the debt, I should think they can reclaim Orkney and Shetland. Some old dowry not paid so the islands were transferred I think.

On the flip side a yes vote means no Scottish MPs voting on English laws. At long last happy days.

Cnut.

Latest opinion polls show a lead for Yes....this is going to be hysterically funny  :)

We should build a gigantic ice wall and guard it with a group called the Black Watch. We can then keep all the murderous wildings and other creatures out!

*cough*Night's Watch*cough*

Can't I be Sweyn Forkbeard instead?

If they get independence does that mean we don't have to watch Scottish football in the news? If so let them go... Really don't understand why it gets airtime!!

Not only that, a Yes vote should put to bed the stories about Celtic and Rangers joining the Prem.

Rangers might have to!

The only Rangers that will have to join the pyramid will have to be Berwick Rangers.

Oops!

the UK government have fucked up on this, like they have on many things

they are planning to offer certain powers to Scotland after hundreds of thousands of Scots (and English living in Scotland)
have already posted votes.

this is illegal under the electoral laws for the Referendum with less than 28 days to go (now ten days)

basically they are scum-bags - and I will be voting YES

their promises are worth nothing - we will win our independence!

Why is it illegal? They are trying to win votes for the argument they believe in, until the last minute, as they are entitled to do. Where is the illegality?

And why do you assume that when there's independence, Scottish politicians will be pure and virtuous?

From what I've seen/read, the government isn't able to make offers/concessions to the voters in the lead up to the vote. But it's the individual political parties that are doing it rather than the government, so no rules broken. Also worth pointing out that they're not offering new powers to Scotland, just a timetable for implementing powers they have already offered.

Makes me laugh though, Scottish people thinking a YES vote will mean they get independence. They'll still be members of the EU and subject to laws passed by Brussels and they'll either be the minority vote in a currency union with the UK or the EU, or using Monopoly money as currency. Will mean less independence rather than more.

That could be deemed a typical unionist response and part of the reason this huge swing has occurred. It's very logical but based on the negative, thus missing the real point of independence. A lot of Scots are just sick of being run by Tory governments they didn't, in their minds, vote in. I think you'd be surprised what sacrifices they are willing to make in order to make that intangible split.

I didnt realise Moredon was in Scotland.

Taking Devo Max off the ballot paper was a mistake.  The Lib Dem federal option (which I've been a fan of for a long time) would have been enough, I expect, for many like moredonboy who feel as if government from London is too remote.  I have sympathy with the viewpoint; just gutted that it's come to this.

Instead, we're going to be looking inwards for years now, trying to disentangle a 300 year old apparatus.  We're all going to lose out.  I can't see any winners.  Depressing.

All I'm concerned about is whether I buy my Euros before or after the 18th.

I'd buy them now!  :)

That's what I'm thinking.

I've been keeping an eye on rates for the last few weeks and Salmond certainly isn't doing me any favours at the moment.

Westminster is too remote from the people in England let alone the people in Scotland. They seemingly live in their own little bubble.

I lived in Scotland for a while and from the posts on my Facebook page, it seems the split is very much 50/50. The general consensus from YES voters, are that they simply want a Scottish government that they vote for, that decide policies for the people of Scotland, Westminster, to them, is full of rich Tory boys that they don't vote for etc etc. They say they are voting yes for a fairer Scotland for Scots.

the NO voters seemingly don't like or trust Salmond and fear that Scotland can't support itself.

Completely disagree...Osborne et al, have shown with their last minute shit in their pants devo offer, that fiscal powers aren't the key driver for retaining the Union.  That is defence.....now realistically seen as the only thing worth keeping the Union for, from the Government/Establishment perspective.

I posted something along these lines back in March, in early days of the thread, but the breaking of the Union is going to ask fundamental questions about our place in the scheme of things, and  I can't see any other answer than we need to become more European, less Uncle Sam's poodle.

With this in mind, the proposed referendum, on continuing membership of the EU is going to be pivotal in forcing some debate on where the remaining UK is heading through the 21 st Century...and that has to be a good thing.

The drive for a Yes vote seems very principled and idealistic.  Democratically, there is a problem (ie not getting the governments they vote for) and it needs to be addressed.  But trashing a 300 year old union to get it seems a great shame to me.

Having spent a lot of time in Scotland during the last 10 or 11 years, it strikes me that there are many more things that unite us - shared values, shared history, shared cultural reference points etc. - than divide us.  I don't understand why the No side has not focussed more on these, because the perception of negativity that has harmed the No campaign would surely have been less.  I think folk on all sides are only really going to come to appreciate what we have lost once it's gone.  For all the demonising of 'Westminster', there's actually a lot there that works and works well.  We are not a pariah state, but reading a lot of comments on various forums/message boards, you would think that we are.  Perspective has been a big casualty of this debate.

I think you misunderstood my point, Reg.  The federal solution would be about so much more than money.  It would be about giving Scotland and other regions of the UK a greatly enhanced level of regional democracy, while also retaining the UK umbrella that could deal with issues such as foreign policy and defence.  Not everyone's cup of tea (because ardent Nationalists would want control of those too), but it would have been attractive to the majority.

The Tories in particular have fucked up royally throughout this campaign.  I get the impression that a section of the Yes vote is motivated primarily by wanting to give them a bloody nose and teach them a lesson for being dicks.  But this vote is not like other votes.  The consequences last longer than 5 years.  The Nationalist only needs to win once, and the effects of the vote are then felt forever.  Cameron, Osborne, Clegg...they will all be gone anyway within a few years, but the legacy of the independence vote will be felt for generations.

No I don't think I misunderstand....regional government isn't wanted in Britain.....the last Labour government tried to do something for the north, with plans for regional assemblies for the North East, Yorkshire/Lincolnshire and may be one other, but it was firmly rejected by the relatively few voters in a NE referendum about 04, and so put to bed.

Of course the consequences of this will be felt for generations, but there's no reason to think it can't be anything other than a positive, if it forces a collective rethink about how to reform our presently flawed democracy, into something more befitting our reduced status.

I think the clamour from (amongst others) the north of England for greater local representation to mirror that being sought in Scotland would indicate that things have moved on since 2004 and that there is now more support for federalism within the UK.  If that referendum in the North East was re-run today, I think you would get an entirely different result - both in terms of turn out and opinion.

I'm not so sure..there is massive apathy particularly amongst the young in politics and the democratic process. Anyway it's not going to happen...the issue ahead now that Scotland has gone it's own way, is the EU, and our place within it.

FWIW, I think it is inevitable that the Sweaties will have to sign up to the Euro and Schengen....no idea other than the need for border controls, how that will impact on us.

Of course they (or we as I've lived in Scotland for 21 years) would have to sign up to the Euro and Schengen.  If we get that far.  The Belgians and Spanish, fearing the break up of their own countries, will inevitably see to it that Scottish entry to the EU is anything but fast tracked.   If it (or in fairness when) it eventually happens, the border fences will indeed go up.  They have to as the immigrant population of Calais would otherwise simply hop on a boat to Scotland and walk into England.

Scottish independence could be very good news for England.  Submarine bases, shipbuilding, financial services jobs will probably all have to relocate somewhere so there could be real benefits for those south of the border.  You'll be able to stop paying the subsidy for renewable energy products which Moredonboy talks about so lovingly (the gap between the cost of production of renewable and conventional energy is closing but subsidies are still required). 

It's really disturbing to hear people pissing away the whole future of their country for the most spurious, ridiculous reasons.  I overheard a woman in a pub at the weekend saying she was voting "yes" because she would get free childcare.  Maybe democracy is a bad thing...

I think it is highly likely you will be fast tracked into the EU....fishing quotas will see to that, but it will mean no UK opt outs and having to follow the rules on new states of... Euro, as Scotland potentially will have a foreign lender of last resort, and Schengen as that's a UK opt out.

Classic spurt before the polls. Typical of YouGov, too.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/av-referendum

We may see soon enough Reg although I wonder whether the Belgian/Spanish situation may override that.  Wonder also about the impact on tourism - whether English people are likely to visit in their usual numbers.  Gonna be very, very messy for a very long time.

It was interesting yesterday watching the Vuelta going up the iconic Lagos de Covadonga, how many Asturias separatists were out on the roadside....I think most people know about the Catalans and Basques, but it seems most of Spain's regions want to cede from Madrid.

I can't imagine many UK tourists will be put off Scotland, given the usual caveats which apply to foreign travel.

I agree. This is the problem with the terms of the independence debate. Nationalist politicians promise a totally unaffordable, unrealistic, impossible to achieve Land of Milk and Honey and they are called romantics, rather than bullshitters.

The 'no' camp suggests a few practical, broadly popular and affordable measures (Devo Max, basically) and they are the ones being called cynics.

It's amazing. Westminster is knee-deep in Scots and they have the gall to suggest it's not their government. The Scots are the most effective regional bloc in Westminster. This cabinet has fewer Scots than any in recent memory, but where do they think Michael Gove is from?

 :hmmm: Alpha Centauri? I give up.

(http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj571/frenchreds/Unknown.jpeg) (http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/frenchreds/media/Unknown.jpeg.html)

Good call, but I've got him down as from Talos IV

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_MPg5sMHH5k/Ti-3Vb6_GMI/AAAAAAAAAXw/U3mfiZGDkcM/s1600/talos_4_talosian_menagerie.jpg)

I think Talos IV may have shagged a Thunderbird.

If it wasn't for the Scottish MP's, the Tories would've had a majority at the last election, instead of the coalition we have now, yet you haven't has the English demanding independence, especially when you've had the issue at Westminster with Scottish MP's voting on English issues.

Also, prior to Cameron taking office, we had 13 years of a Scot being PM (Blair was born in Scotland), and numberous Scots in cabinet positions. Yet, they're still not happy.

They get a lot bigger spend per person due to the Barnett formula, which has paid for free prescriptions, university fees and care for OAP's.

And if it wasn't for the English taxpayers, their two main banks (RBS and BoS) would've gone to the wall.

And yet the Scots don't think they've had a fair deal !!!

what will be the point of Norn Ireland if the Scots secede? 

You could say exactly that about the Welsh. I personally thought it was only a matter of time when they started to devolve parts of govenment to both the Welsh and the Scots under Blair...because it's just a matter of time that they will want more and more power, and Salmond wants all the power he can get.

I still maintain my 'fuck 'em' comment sums it all up perfectly

Meh to it,  and I have Scottish blood. Can't help but think that it's gonna go tits up for them, your choice residents of Scotland,  good luck  :)

I suspect they'll vote yes and them end up with a coalition come the 2015 elections

Maybe someone has already posted the answer but who will end up paying for this divorce...? I am sort of presuming it will be us English tax payers....which has to be the most unjust method especially as we have had no mandate.....going to cost a fortune....... :nod:

You will being pay for it. Perhaps not all of it, but enough of it to hurt.

It rather depends how the negotiations transpire....as there must be umpteen things that will need sorting.  Take for example something close to my heart the Ordnance Survey....now the Sweaties will argue, that although it is based in Soton, the OS is as much theirs as the rest of GB (doesn't operate in NI)

So they will be entitled to a cut of the resources, in order to set up their own cartography establishment should they choose, or they might think.....maps, out dated, we'll just rely on Google....alternatively, just buy into the OS to maintain the present system.

Inevitably there will be a cost to the rest of the UK, but given the massive population difference, that will fall less heavily on individual tax payer, than the individual tax payer in the new country...where I think they accept they're in for a short term hit, but hope for a long term gain.
 

There's another interesting factor in this - and that is that Scotland (in the event of a Yes vote) will have voted unilaterally to leave the UK.  And that is an entirely different scenario to one in which the whole of the UK had a vote, and everyone on both sides of the English/Scottish border mutually agreed to an amicable separation.  There will be approx 62 million UK residents who will not have actively voted for the break-up of the country they live in; and approx 2 million voters who will have.

A likely response from a good proportion of the 62 million who won’t have voted yes, around 95% of whom would live outside Scotland, would be 'Why should I pay for any of this?  I didn’t ask for it.  If you want to separate, Scotland, fine - but you can pay the costs of separation.'

Inevitably, there will be costs that the Continuing UK will have to foot.  But there would be very little appetite in the Continuing UK to pay for any more of those costs than is absolutely necessary or unavoidable.  Resentment against Scotland would be significant due to the disruption caused, and politicians on this side of the border would be obliged to take a very tough line in negotiations.

Animosity on both sides would probably build fairly quickly and the cordial relationship that currently exists would not last long.  Very sad.  But that’s the reality of separation.

Stick a few more courses on Hadrians wall. Job done. Forget about the rest of the hoo ha, bored with it.

This will become the key thing as the separation negotiations develop...the first knock on will be that the 2015 election will have to be postponed, as there is little point in Scottish MPs, taking up their seats for a matter of of few months, and little point in incurring the costs of an irrelevant General Election.

This will mean that our new situation will very much be an election issue in 2016....

I'd like to see an English vote on the abolition of the Barnett formula. If they want to stay in the UK then they get the same per head as the rest of us. Why does my daughter rack up £9k per year in University fees while someone's daughter in Scotland doesn't. Why do the Welsh get free prescriptions but we don't. Thats not a very United Kingdom to me.

Because those are devolved powers that the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly control.  Alternatively, you could ask why do English children get 15 hours of free education from the age of 3 when Welsh children only get 10 hours?  The SP and WA have a number of powers and their own budgets to address them - much like bin collections are under the control of local authorities and differ from council to council.

But "the rest of us" don't have the same level of public expenditure per head anyway. The variations in the the elements of public expenditure included in the BF (excluding stuff like defence etc.) between the various regions of England is even greater than that between England average and Scotland average.

Spend per head in London is even greater than that in Scotland. Same in the South West. It's the South East, Eastern and East Midlands that should be annoyed as they really lose out.

Spend on services doesn't directly impact on Joe public's pocket though Lumpy, chalkies example does.

 See the Establishment have wheeled out John Major, to write a piece probably in the Mail, outlining what the perils of the forthcoming Sweatie independence is really about.....namely the lose of Trident, our seat on the UN security council and Scottish regiments in the British Army.

Yesterday on TV, a politician suggested that he was  in favour of  independence for Wales and NIreland as well as Scotland, leaving England on it's own and independent of the others. He thought it is coming to the end of big block countries and federations, and small countries are generally doing very well.  I was only half listening, but it got me thinking about more cans of worms opening up.  Could, and would,  Wales wish to be independent, for example?  I imagine that NIreland would have no interest in independence, but who knows?  

So, will the Jocks have to source their  own armed forces?

What of existing British military bases in Scotland?  I spent some time at  RAF Machrihanish in the 70s, got wrecked in the raunchy hotspots of Campbeltown.

surely there will be a bit of a jobs bonanza south of the border

Audrey, there will be a massive jobs boost south of the border.  Standard Life has just confirmed that it has contingencies in place including transferring its business for non-Scottish clients to England.  Would involve an awful lot of jobs...

The Sweaties want to join NATO, and enjoy the security it brings, but want the removal of Trident, which is somewhat at odds with NATO policy....they also want to retain the names of Scottish regiments, for use in their domestic defence forces.

If they are permitted to join NATO, then doubtless deals will be done about the retention of some NATO (ie UK bases) on Sweatie soil....but from the military establishment point of view this will be a crushing defeat.

Scots are way over represented in the British Army, and doubtless many NO voters are from this tradition, so I'd imagine it highly likely there will new regiments formed, like the Gurkha regiments, which allow foreign nationals to fight in the British Army.

Surely if Wales wants to go its own way then Cardiff/Swansea and the others will have to fuck off out the English pyramid as would technically be playing in a foreign league .

Every cloud and all that

Wales is not a real country and has not been for hundreds of years, I really wish they'd come to terms with that. The English nation includes Wales. There was never a merging of two nations like there was with the Scotch, there was a simple conquest. There is no Welsh nation.

You've probably picked up that I'm no fan of Scottish independence, and that I think Scotland, England, Wales & NI would fare better together in a federal, devolved state.  But I think it's also fairly obvious that Scotland could function as an independent state if it voted that way.

Wales, on the other hand, would really struggle.  They don't have the critical mass and they're bound far too closely to England for it to make any sense to separate.  (For what it's worth, I think Scotland is also bound too closely to England for separation to make real sense...but maybe not in such a cut & dried way as for Wales.)  Wales could never be truly independent from England, even if it tried to be politically.  Complete non-starter.  And I think support for independence there is running at about 10% anyway.

If this isn't a wake-up call, I'm not sure what is. What is Salmond's response to this? He's got nothing.

Sadly, for a lot of people that seems to be enough.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/independent-scotland-to-blame-cats-2013020658754

Not only that you've got companies that say that if there is a Yes vote, prices will have to rise in Scotland due to uncertainty with everything. Salmond certainly hasn't got an answer to that.

Some words from one of my best mates who is an Edinburgh based investment manager...

"I didn’t sleep last night worrying about it. I have told Debs to be prepared to move. I find it difficult to control my anger that I even have to consider this. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a major backlash from an upset group of voters.

He has set Scots against Westminster, Scots against Tory, Scots against England and “Those who have not” against “Those who have” and families against each other.

Scotland will get royally stuffed in the separation agreement. And who will get hurt? Not the educated middle class who can find work, are mobile but the poor who he has lied to win their support. "

This does seem to back up the concern I raised earlier that whatever the outcome there is going to be disquiet and a large disenfranchised population following the election. I just hope that they handle these splits better than other nations have when the debate between nationalism and unionism has become messy!

I think I read recently that of the financial institutions based in Scotland, some 90% of their business is done with non-Scottish residents i.e. the rest of the UK.

In the event of a 'Yes' outcome, most of the Edinburgh financial district would just pack up and head south, or at least align their registered headquarters south of the border.

What does Salmond say when these factors are mentioned?
Has he outlined how Scotland will actually benefit from independence? 

Should make for a somewhat fiery encounter when England visit Glasgow to play the Sweaties in a couple of months

He calls bullshit....which is largely fair enough. Most of these companies said they'd up sticks when the Sweatie parliament was formed....and didn't.

His plan is to use lower tax rates for companies to attract in investment from multi-nationals of which there are many based in England, quite happy to chase the $.

He's also said Scotland needs sizable immigration to make it viable.....one of the issues which will lead to trouble about borders.  It may well be that Scotland will become more attractive to live in than England.

I presume that all the Scots will be returning their British passports in favour of the non existent Scottish one.

If you look at your passport, you may notice the first reference is to the European Union....this will be where Scotland's problems will be to start with.

They can have Fatty Evans back.

And will Jock players need to get a work permit to play in England a la Carlos Kickaball?

Funnily enough I was thinking the same thing earlier.

Is Salmond now planning on using the dollar now, like other tinpot nations?  :)

Then voters in the rest of Britain need to elect a Government that prioritises spending on education in the way the Scots did.

Chalkie was trying to make the point that Scots get an unfair share of the public purse and therefore can afford to hand out free prescriptions and tuition fee free higher education.

I'm just pointing out that actually, he assuming he lives in Swindon, has an even higher share of public spending spent on him than the average Scot. It's not Jock McTavish's fault that Chalkie's elected representatives choose to spend it on, well who the hell knows, but not supporting HE students.

How is this a contradiction? 25  of the 28 NATO members have no nuclear weapons. Only France and the UK in Europe are nuclear powers. Scotland would be in the overwhelming majority.

I'm intrigued. What in your mind constitutes "a real country". Having been conquered and ruled by a neighbouring foreign power for hundreds of years would mean a load of those former soviet republics would have to stop being so silly with their little flags and anthems, cluttering up European football tournaments and generally "pretending" to be nations as well. Those Ukainians should just let the Russian tanks roll in. After all they were a part of the Russian Empire or Lithuania or Poland, or the Austro-Hungarian Empire pretty much since the 12th century.

As for the conquest bit. You might want to check your royal lineages, because from what I remember  Wales was incorporated into the England fully sometime in the early to mid 16th century, when Elizabeth I was on the throne, and I'm pretty sure she was a descendent of Henry VII (Henry Tudor) who was more than a bit Welsh (descendant of one of the Welsh princes Rhys ap Gruffudd).

I think the point here is that NATO currently relies heavily on France and the UK to provide the nuclear deterrent in Europe and, in the UK, that comes in the form of Trident which is based in the west of Scotland.  If an independent Scotland insisted on the dismantling of Trident (with its relocation to somewhere in England or Wales), the cost & disruption would be immense.  We would be weaker militarily...and while some would welcome that, the Americans certainly would not.

Half the Jocks who say they are voting Yes will vote No in the privacy of the booth.

Fuck 'em

Most of the undecided voters will vote no, people stick with what they know rather than risk change when they are unsure.

Can't see the Yes campaign pulling it off

Pretty much Salmond's attitude to everything - wants the benefits but won't pay for it or have the inconvenience.

I'm sure it sounds good to all the Yes voters that are buying it, but when it comes to the actual negotiations for independence they will have a shock. The NATO membership could easily come down to them being given a choice of keeping the weapons or getting rid of them and not being allowed in to NATO. I don't see Scotland having many friends once they vote Yes.

Ooo err

CIA will murder Salmond. Heard it here first folks. They've done their own before and now they're coming for the Scots.

New SNP promotional video

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pIXamwdjtqY

If they vote NO. I wanna vote for English Independence. They can then have a YES whether they like it or NOT !!!!

I'm getting fed up with Salmond's total BS that I would not even give them the 'devo-max' option.

As Audrey said 'Fuck 'em'.

The tone of this campaign is getting pretty scary now. 49% of people are going to be very, very fucked off come Friday morning and that is not good for anyone.

A British National Party policy.

They had a policy of a "federation of the British Isles" which included a united Ireland.

North sea oil currently belongs to the UK, although it's in large part regulated by the EU - the environment being an exclusive EU competence since 1986 (when Thatcher gave more powers away). If Scotland leaves the Union it also leaves the EU (albeit as I noted before with a likely fudge that they remain members until they work something out) and so will lose all its UK opt-outs and so-called 'privileges'.

Thus ultimately Scotland would have to reapply for membership under Article 48 of Lisbon. This would require agreement by all other "member states". Two factors thus come into play. The EU with its "local difficultly" with Russia needs energy security. Secondly, other members states are keen to quash the rise of their own local separatists movements, notably Italy, Spain and Belgium. Therefore Scotland is likely to be made an example of in the form of a very poor deal - third party access to Scottish territorial waters being one of them. As a notorious precedent of third party access there's UK fishermen...

That said it's unlikely to happen anyway as, in my view, the "no" vote will win quite comfortably, possibly by around the 60-65% mark.

No need to lower the tone.

The bookies aren't wrong normally. No is roughly 1/4 and yes is roughly 7/2. Across a number of bookmakers on oddschecker. So using those figures its gonna be roughly 70% NO....... 30 % YES.

Chance of happening is not even close to share of the vote. Ask a bookmaker what odds they'll give you on 70% yes and you'll get a very different answer.

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-independence/yes-vote-percentage (http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-independence/yes-vote-percentage)

Willhill only ones with a price for that @  50/1.

This article by Billy Bragg, pretty much sums up my thoughts....

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class

Blimey.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-betfair-pays-out-on-no-vote-1-3543266

Ballsy.

To my mind Billy Brag is a hypocritical twat, yet in this article I would agree that he touches on the fact that the real wall in this country is not Hadrian's but the wall universally known as the M25. Out-of-touch London is the real issue...

The biggest party in this country has been for some time none of the above with not a dash of anger. It's a shame Mr Bragg can't bring himself to acknowledge one of the real reasons why - outsourcing much our legislative powers to an unaccountable bureaucracy.

This though I really agree with:

Out of touch London is the real elephant in the room, which simply isn't discussed or covered enough, because every organisation/business/body of any import is based there, because if you're not based there anyone who is looks down on you. House prices rose 20% there this year I notice, and the average price is now well over half a million.

Appalling really that it's gone on this long and that it will continue to do so until the near future.

Billy Bragg is a well known English nationalist/patriot...which he manages to combine with socialist principles.  It's a fascinating combination that he pulls very well.  I have a lot of time for him.  Haven't got around to reading the article, but I will.


I don't think it's necessarily London's fault, or the fault of anyone who lives there.  It's just that London is so completely different to anywhere else in the UK.  It's a truly global place with a global outlook.  The 'unaware of anything outside the M25' criticism is, basically, true.  London has so much more in common with Paris or Chicago than it does with Birmingham or Glasgow.

How you get round the problem is to give proper devolution to the English regions in the same way as has been given to Scotland and Wales.  One thing that we will have Scotland to thank for, regardless of the referendum result, is that the genie is now out of the bottle - and that meaningful devolution across the UK is now going to be unstoppable.  This will probably mean, in time, that some of the decisions affecting Swindon being taken in Bristol instead of London...which may have issues of its own.  But I think it will happen eventually.

Billy Bragg is a hypocritical cunt,bangs on about the benefits of diversity  and moves his family to the whitest village in Dorset,typical champagne socialist... :blowup: :moon:

Billy Bragg is a bit up himself but I wouldn't call Burton Bradstock "the whitest village in Dorset" don't believe everything you read in "The Mail" because it doesn't always report the whole truth.

(http://i.imgur.com/Kw5QtB2.gif)

I don't get the London out of touch argument. Sure it's different but the same applies to Bristol vs Swindon vs Chippenham.

There won't be devolution to the regions in England as no one wants it, the majority vote against regional assemblies and mayors when given the chance. But I think that highlights our real problem - we're all sick of politics mainly due to ALL politicians being a bunch of wankers. Though we're as much to blame for continually voting for them.

Think people are reading too much in to the Scottish vote. Reason so many are in favour is their need for being independent and stepping out of the shadow of their draconian rulers (us). There is no logic to it, just the way it is. The same for us thinking we're superior to everyone else.

Ah well, Sweaties Big Day.

Hope enough of them vote YES

Hope for their sake common sense prevails and they vote no.

Whatever ever happens the country will be divided tomorrow morning and that's not a good thing for anyone.

I don't think it's going to happen, Audrey.  Because Alex Salmond and that dreadful Nicola Sturgeon (it seems you have to be named after a fish to run the SNP) have left too many important questions unanswered, and so will have failed (but only just) to convince enough people to follow them into the unknown.  Either way, there are going to be a lot of unhappy people up there when the dust settles.  

I had originally hoped for a landslide whatever the verdict because it'll rumble on otherwise.

Alas, if the Polls are anything to go by, it will rumble on.

I don't know what to think about it all really other than it'll be 'a bit of a shame' if the union is broken up.

There's bound to be a lot of unhappy sweaties whatever happens though. I reckon that Alex Salmond chappie may have got himself in a bit deeper than he was thinking he would.

Including the English when we continually have to subsidise their uni fees, etc., via the continued Barnett formula, which all three main parties have said they'll continue with as long as they say No.

Bang on

The economy is the epicentre of everything. It comes first. Everything else is on the periphery. The proposed questions on the economy that have been put to Salmond have been avoided. If you can't have a plan in place for the economy it's a No before you even start talking about other issues.

I read something the other day that Salmond was saying there'd be no border crossings should Scotland become independent. Is that even his (or Scotland's) decision to make?

He also declared (arbitrarily) yesterday that they would be keeping the Pound!

If they do vote for independence then I hope the Orkneys, Shetlands and Outer Hebrides say that Edinburgh is too remote and they want independence.
Throwing more concessions at these bastards is not the way to go, shame on all three major parties and shame on the Barnett formula. 

A survey, a while ago, found that the people of Panama were the happiest on the planet...now this despite relative poverty in material terms.  The Panamanians use the $, although not in a currency union....and are free to use whatever currency they wish. Similarly the Sweaties, could opt for using the £, without a currency union and still be a happy bunch.

Ironically, it was the failed Darian project, in what is now Panama, which fucked the Sweaties and brought about our neighbourly offer of a union, to stave off famine and pestilence there. Time for a good old fashioned return to conflict with our norvern neighbours.

Reg, if the 'Yes' vote wins the day and we then become the "Former United Kingdom", will that mean that we all become FUKers?  :)

You would think so.  But I know a number of (usually) very rational people who will have voted Yes today, and believe firmly that the economics of separation will not be a problem.  A common view is that concerns raised by the No side are nothing more than scare stories; that there are billions of barrels of oil waiting to be extracted from Scottish waters in the North Sea; that the Continuing UK will have no option to agree to a full monetary/currency union and that the inventiveness of the Scottish people will assure a rosy economic future.

What seems fairly certain to most down here (ie that separation will require massive up-front costs on both sides and carry with it a far greater level of economic risk) is viewed as little more than a footnote in the argument to many in Scotland.  And for that reason, I’m not particularly optimistic about the result.  Far too close to call.

Keeping my fingers crossed today.  Division is not a positive.   And, if it happens, I would guess that in the years ahead will come to be seen as a historic mistake/wrong turn.  The closer the result gets, the more I find I’m getting irritated by the prospect that my wife and I could have different nationalities/passports etc. in the years ahead.  It’s an emotional, rather than practical, matter.  Plenty of couples live and deal with it.  But to have a situation imposed on you - with even my wife (the Scottish half of the relationship) not being able to vote/have a say - feels wrong.  Fingers crossed.

Major mistake if they vote yes. At the moment they can blame England for all their troubles. If they vote for independence they'll be losing their scapegoat.

Richard Osman, wont be happy, as Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is one of his favourites....2 Formers, surely a step too far.

I know some quite smart Scots that are voting 'yes' because they wish to not be under control from the Torys.

A sentiment that most here are likely to empathise with but it does seem rather short sighted. So you freeeeeedomed yourself from Westminster..... now what?

Nothing stopping them using the pound.

BUT it will, of course, not be backed by the Bank of England. They would have to sort out their own guarantees which would be in the region of £20 billion.

In which case, it would not be 'THE' pound.

Quite right - but it would simplify things for them albeit I would presume they would have to devalue it against the pound proper and any savings they have would be worth less straight away

 All this will need to be sorted....Cameron says he will hang around, to smoothly oil the wheels of the negotiations, I suspect his party may have other ideas.  Think Milliband will have to go also....whereas Clegg, largely because he's a busted flush anyway, may hang on.

 There will be a lot of issues raised about the break up, that will need to be put to the remainder of the electorate..

Pandora's Box, Reg

Good thing it's not going to happen, then.   :sherlock:

Did Adrian Mole ever discover its contents?

Feminine hygiene product

The regional thing will never happen I suspect for the simple reason that for most it would make little difference.

I lived in Cumbria when they were considering it in the north west, the concensus then was 'why bother it will take only mean us being ignore in Manchester rather than London'.

Sure I read that this is seriously being looked at Shetland especially has much closer historic and social links to Norway.

I think it will take off...by default.  More and more is being offered to Scotland (if it stays in the UK, obviously) and Wales.  So if the North East or the East Midlands, for example - both of which have similar sized populations - ever want to get a similar settlement, regional devolved assemblies are the only way forward.

You can't have an English parliament as a counterpoint to Scottish and Welsh parliaments in a devolved/federal set up.  It would represent too many people, and would fail to address the concerns of folk from those regions who, in common with a lot of Scots and Welsh, complain of an overly centralised bureaucracy in London.  I'm sure it will happen.  It has to.

Federalism is the logical answer. It worked in Star Trek....

Something modelled on this would be pretty awesome.

(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090530201707/memoryalpha/en/images/b/bb/Starfleet_command_emblem.png)

So you really think that what people want is another level of bureaucracy? We'd end up with four levels - local council, regional assembly, national government, EU government.

What's wrong with devolving more powers to local councils? It would need a major overhaul though, a reduction in the number of councillors, making them full time positions running elements of the council day to day and making them accountable. More power to vary council tax, business rates, and stuff like that.

The biggest issue we have to sort in England though is the general lack of interest in politics and voting.

We had a long established system of local council democracy in England (don't know about elsewhere in UK, but assume the same).

Councils had the power to raise money locally and spend it locally, and so decide strategy locally....unfortunately this didn't chime well with the Thatcherites, who found these often wet old skool Tory/Socialist lite ideas at odds with their desire for profit first and foremost.

This was at first done by Rate Capping and then the introduction of the Poll Tax into Scotland, an event for which many will  have got their revenge today.

Sounds like you're expecting the YES vote to win, Reg.

Yes I think so....who in their right mind wouldn't want to be free of the Tories.

Whilst I hope you're right Reg, I think you're wrong. Scotland has bottled it. It'll be a no.

The 'extra' layer wouldn't be extra though.  It would simply take responsibility away from central government.  What I've described works in many other countries incl Germany, Australia, Switzerland and the US.  If there's one lesson to learn from the last few years it's that government is way too centralised.  In fact, the voter apathy you refer to at the end of your post is, I would say, largely a result of folk feeling disconnected from a distant, arrogant and over-centralised legislature based in London.

Go back to having the old Dark Ages kingdoms of Mercia, Wessex, Northumbria etc. as federal capitals of the various areas of the UK. Local councils report to them and they report to the government. Small issues are solved internally, larger ones brought to London.

You could still have the old counties if you wanted, although it'd be an extra layer of government between that of the local councils and the federated fiefdoms of the UK.

And the sooner we set up Starfleet the better, I'm getting fed up with waiting.

Mercia can fuck right off...what do you suppose the Ellandune Centre in Wroughton is about?

Those voting yes, what are they actually voting for? If it's purely down to not wanting to be governed from London then it'll be interesting to see how they feel in a few years time.

Looking like it's going to be a nooo.

Och aye the noooooo

Glasgow result coming up soon.  That should be interesting!

Well that's that then!

Whatever you think of Salmond he is a proper politician from his speech you would have thought he had won!

I'm delighted.

Also means the result is going to act as a catalyst for change down here as well.

Hope celebrations are restrained, because the rebuilding job starts now.

Excellent, common sense prevailed.

Excellent, too many unknowns for the Scots to go it alone.. Pissed off we have apparently said they can keep the Barnett formula share, but we can address that injustice in a few years time.

Now to text bait my yes voting ex-colleague:

God save your gracious Queen,
Long live your noble Queen....


:)

I see lots of people bemoaning the Barnett formula. You do know the south west receives more money per head than Scotland?

North East £8,177 – 111% of UK average identifiable expenditure
North West £7,798 – 106%
Yorkshire and Humberside £8,188 – 115%
East Midlands £6,491 – 88%
West Midlands £7,065 – 96%
Eastern £6,144 – 83%
London £8,704 – 124%
South East £6,304 – 86%
South West £8,677 – 121%

England £7,121
Scotland £8,623
Wales £8,139
Northern Ireland £9,385

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_formula

As expected, a comfortable "no" then...the 'status quo effect' prevails. Salmond's lack of a proper exit plan cost him dearly.

Technically that is true but as a whole Scottish people get more per head than English people so there are parts of Scotland that get more than the south west, it is all swings & roundabouts.

Yeah, I understand the systems flaws, just pointing out that it is not 100% biased to 100% of Scotland, as most seen to think

I don't recall receiving 8 grand from the government  :sherlock:

Glasgow voted Yes.

I would have liked to have seen a Yes vote, but this has been a marvelous exercise in democracy and a credit to the Scottish people, and I suppose grudgingly to Cameron who accepted the need for it, and very nearly got burned.

 The Queen will be happy.

So will Farage - he'd would have had to change his party's name from UKIP

Would have meant increased Tory domination down here though...which I'm not sure you'd have welcomed.

The more I think about it, the happier I become about this result.  The surge in the polls for Yes a couple of weeks ago - which some commentators are now thinking was a mistake/anomaly anyway - forced Cameron's hand in to offering the Scots more than he otherwise would have done in terms of devolution.  And that, in turn, means that the likelihood of the West Lothian Question being resolved via real, meaningful constitutional change for England is massively increased.  All the talk on the Today Programme this morning is about what this means for the whole of the UK.

Whether individually they voted Yes or No, the Scottish electorate has done all of us a massive favour.  In the years ahead political engagement, the constitutional settlement and even the union itself will all be stronger than they have been up until now.

According to the Daily Mail, Doncaster still belongs to Scotland after an invasion back in the 13th Century. It was never formally returned to England. Doncaster is also Ed Miliband's constituency, commonly known as 'the arsehole of England' and closer to Edinburgh than London.

We could have got rid of Scotland, Doncaster AND the arsehole of England, all in one go.

I'm a little disappointed...

Yes, that was never in any doubt, Reg.  My comment about it being "interesting" was more to do with whether their turnout would be as high as the other parts who had already declared (it wasn't), and if the extent of their YES vote would start to turn the tide that was already building up (it didn't).

A statelet of Glasgow and Lanarkshire could be established....something along the lines of Kosovo....and Doncaster handed over to them, seems fair enough.

I'm surprised no media has looked into what the descendants of the Stuart family are up to.....and whether they fancy another crack at reclaiming the Crowns of England and Scotland.

Glasgow's result was far closer than I expected it to be.

The forthcoming friendly is going to be fun....now, do all England fans show the Union Flag, and hang out with the Rangers lot?

I've never quite been able to pin down to a year or an event, when England fans stopped using the Union Flag at games and started using the cross of St George, but it did happen almost unnoticed.

Spot on !  Massive relief from up here in the Highlands. My job no longer under threat , can now continue to enjoy
this beautiful part of Great Britain . Up the Town!

World cup 90 I reckon Reginald

I thought it was around Euro '96 when England flags were visibly replacing Union ones.

I'm delighted that Scotland is staying, but I made the mistake of watching a clip of Cameron talking about the choice and I instantly felt a pang of regret for them bottling it.

Unsurprisingly, there were plenty of grubby looking Union Jack's in attendance at the abandoned Ireland friendly in 1995. So I imagine hosting Euro '96 cemented St. George's Flag as the England's flag-o-choice.

Judging on this evidence 4D, it looks like the 96ers might be on to something.....pic from Italia 90.

(http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae96/Northstreet01/ENGLAND/4619_85788112513_666857513_2036219_.jpg)

Good to see, a Pay No Poll tax flag  :)

Interesting to see an upside down/back to front Swindon Town flag mostly obscured by the guard.

Absolutely this. I was hoping against hope that his heart would literally break.......

That's a pretty comfortable win.

Surprised the turnout rate was "only" 85%. Whilst that's a huge figure and shows people will vote if they feel their vote actually matters I was expecting an even higher figure.

The 15% were probably too pissed all day

or at school - then after school - then tea and finally, tucked up in bed

I for one am proud I can still call myself British today. Glad it was a relatively resounding No, nad glad that perhaps this will prove the catalyst for greater change for the better throughout Britain.

Good spot that...presumably the Town fan concerned had a few too many pre match.

I quite like the the cross of St George, but with a Union Flag in one corner...

Or smacked up

What was the turn out in Glasgow? Did they take people still with needles in their arms?

Reckon they forgot to tie the top corners  :)
I would have said Euro 96 for the flag change, but it was too obvious. Or USA 94...... Oh!  :(

I think you are correct about the flag, also I think you are right in saying Euro 96 when the country was proud to have it in England seemed to herald the change IMO too.

Three lions etc

So how come the FC seems to be correct?

It's not. It reads "tc"

I feel very sad for the Scottish people.
They could've removed themselves from the clutches of London but fucked it up.
Now we can all look forward to another layer of management in both Kingdoms.
Jobs for the army of university dross that can't find jobs at the present.
Sad sad day.

WTF ?  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Not sad for those of us who actually live in Scotland. Democracy is alive and well  :nod:

This isn't relevant but I once had a piss on the front door of the Welsh office and didn't get nicked...

It would be good if we could have a few more red squirrels back down south....you can find them on Brownsea Island in Poole Harbour, so I'd imagine they must have been native down here, before being displaced by the grey.

The greys are nice enough, but there are just too many of them.....

Salmond resigning then as First Minister....fair play to the fella.

I would imagine he has nothing left in the tank after that.  Glad he didn't achieve what he set out to, but I do feel for him.  Taking some time out is probably for the best - for a number of reasons.

No sympathy for the bloated fucker

He's a massive Cunt.

Only thing he could do really.

And I'd be quite happy if the extra layer of management gives some of us 'university dross' a job.

I stand by my suggestion that this was the ideal outcome for him.  Gains his place in history and legacy as the man who gave Scotland their chance,  a modern day William Wallace but avoids the shit storm which would have followed a 'yes' vote when he may have been required to deliver some of the details.

He's got no where else to go.

He's leader of the Scottish Nationalist Party, whose big policy is Scottish Independence. which the people has decided they do not want, and it's not likely that they are going to get another vote soon, being this is the first vote on independence in 300 years.

The greys are nice , but red is always best ! :nod:

And the aftermath begins


(http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/ab225/mark_woolhouse/sweaties_zps66437d70.jpg)

There's all sorts of conspiracy theories about voting fraud flying about as well now.

That's both big and clever.

Hopefully that's a one-off.  It'll be very sad if the post-referendum Scotland is marked by civil unrest.  The couple of times I've been it seems a wonderfully friendly, beautiful place.