Coronavirus

[pauld]

On a brighter note, the Times are reporting SPI-M projecting numbers of COVID patients predicted to halve over the next fortnight

https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1374850876838383621

[Batch]

Going a bit FB Karen here to promote debate

Vaccine passports***. Specifically pubs.

Assuming that the adult population that wanted the vaccine has had it - what's the need. Those vaccinated are 100%* not going to get seriously ill. And those that haven't have done so and gone to the pub at own risk. So what's the problem **

Oh and don't leave it to landlords. Its either required, or not.

* According to the trials
** Other than extra NHS burden when they end up on a ventilator.
*** or recent negative test - yeah sure, that's not going to be open to abuse at all.

[Bogus Dave]

Not sure I’m comfortable with the vaccine passport idea on the basis that it discriminates against those who have been unable to have it. There’s too many unknowns with vaccine supply at the moment for me to trust that every adult will have had their first jab by middle of June

And every adult is a misnomer anyway - what about those unable to take vaccines, the pregnant or otherwise health compromised. Effectively resigning them to second class citizens

The ‘or negative test’ end of the bargain just means that anyone not able to be vaccinated can’t arrange anything with any certainty

[pauld]

I'd share Dave's ethical concerns plus I suspect the rollout of a vaccine passport isn't as straightforward as people sometimes airily imagine in these discussions. The little bit of card they give you once you've been jabbed would take roughly two minutes to forge with a scanner and a copy of photoshop (other graphic editing tools are available). I've heard discussion of more ambitious digital id schemes but these are also fraught with dangers, not least around personal security and we don't have a good track record of producing these kinds of schemes, certainly not in time for the proposed reopening of pubs. And no, I don't have alternative suggestions.

Against that, I'd be more than happy ethically to see it be made a requirement for travel, definitely into the country as there's already precedent there that you need to have jabs to go to  certain parts of the world now (or before, I should perhaps say). The practical considerations might still apply though.

[chalkies shorts]

Surely it will fail under disability discrimination act. Someone can't have the vaccine but is then banned from pubs and holidays. How fair is that.
I get the other point but this should be decided by law not left to individuals. It's not often I want the government to interfere but in this case I do. It's unfair on publicans etc. Let's get clear guidance instead of putting the onus on individuals.
Also what's the cost of a fake vaccine document.

[Flashheart]

And every adult is a misnomer anyway - what about those unable to take vaccines, the pregnant or otherwise health compromised. Effectively resigning them to second class citizens

I think it's surely a given that those legitimately unable to take it should be exempt? We can afford to not vaccinate those people and still have herd immunity.

As for the rest... I dunno.

[pauld]

I think it's surely a given that those legitimately unable to take it should be exempt? We can afford to not vaccinate those people and still have herd immunity.

As for the rest... I dunno.

I guess that could be built into a vaccine passport in some way - i.e. all the venue/whatever sees is a green light status that says "OK". That could be because you've had the vaccine, or because you're exempt. So that's taken out of the venue's hands to discriminate/judge

[horlock07]

Let's get clear guidance instead of putting the onus on individuals.

Considering this has been the thrust of the governments response to this for over a year, good luck with that!

Not sure why they need any sort of physical 'passport', just install scanners at pub entrances which can pick up the chip we have all been injected with and jobs a good 'un.

[jayohaitchenn]

Everyone SHOULD get the vaccinne and everyone should be encouraged to have it and educated about it.

Should it be mandatory? No. We still live in a free country with individual choice and rights.

[Banker]

Everyone SHOULD get the vaccinne and everyone should be encouraged to have it and educated about it.

Should it be mandatory? No. We still live in a free country with individual choice and rights.

Individual choice that could potentially negatively affect (infect) the health of others, without their knowledge. Who is going to be living freely in that scenario ?

[Batch]

Everyone SHOULD get the vaccinne and everyone should be encouraged to have it and educated about it.

Should it be mandatory? No. We still live in a free country with individual choice and rights.

correct, nobody should be forced..

it's the consequences if you choose not to that's up for debate  -job, pubs, holidays, etc.

[Nemo]

It's a balance that we already try to strike in other areas, isn't it?

It feels a bit like the ban on smoking in pubs, workplaces etc, - banned inside because it affects the health of other patrons, but still allowed outdoors because of individual choice.

I think there are strong arguments for and against and obviously near-universal but free choice uptake is the ideal, but public health policy wrestles with these kinds of dilemmas all the time.

[horlock07]

Surely it will fail under disability discrimination act. Someone can't have the vaccine but is then banned from pubs and holidays. How fair is that.
I get the other point but this should be decided by law not left to individuals. It's not often I want the government to interfere but in this case I do. It's unfair on publicans etc. Let's get clear guidance instead of putting the onus on individuals.
Also what's the cost of a fake vaccine document.

I am buggered if I can find it now, but I read somewhere that vaccine passports would break some sort of UN convention (it may have been some other international body) stopping people being injected with drugs against their will, I suspect this will fall like so much rhetoric from the occupiers of Westminster.

[Flashheart]

it's the consequences if you choose not to that's up for debate  -job, pubs, holidays, etc.

Yep.

It's not only the rights of the anti-vaxxers that need to be taken into consideration. It works both ways; I don't see why other people should have their health (and lives - literally) put at risk over the rights of ignorant dolts.

Are they a risk once the vaccine has been rolled out? I suppose that's something for the experts to work out.

[pauld]

I am buggered if I can find it now, but I read somewhere that vaccine passports would break some sort of UN convention (it may have been some other international body) stopping people being injected with drugs against their will, I suspect this will fall like so much rhetoric from the occupiers of Westminster.

On the face of it, that sounds like a load of bollocks, depending on what they're used for. If it's a case of "You can't go to the pub/theatre/holiday" without one, these are all optional activities and those refusing to have a vaccine can weigh up their choices, in much the same way they might choose not to go to certain countries where you need a jab to travel to them; if it was "You can't leave the house" then there might be more of a case for coercion. But this sounds like the standard Toby Young/Allison Pearson anti-vaxxers bullshit