Thetownend.com

Religion is something that interests me greatly.

I am Agnostic myself because for me seeing is beleiving. Yet oblivion for is a bizarre concept for me

What are your thoughts on religion/god/heaven and all that?

Do you beleive, are you agnostic or are you an Atheist?

I think they're some nice little stories. There are some in the Bible which I guess you can relate to the real world - stories with a moral.

As for a God(s). I don't believe in that really. The Big Bang theory has some strong evidence as does evolution. I guess the only thing I would question is what got the conditions there for the Big Bang to exist. If a God created those condition, watched the big bang and things evolve today then God is a very patient being.

Without an element of believe death is far too scarey for me to think about, in fact it shits me up so much I kind of try my hardest not to think about infinite darkness.  

I know I know, you won't know anything about it, but....that's enough for me, got to go and think of some nice things, not this.

Have a nice thread.

I like the thought of believing in something and slightly envy people with strong belief but I only vaguely beieve in god.

I just got a flashback to angels and squagels.

I completly agree! Enternal darkness and the world the sun etc blowing up but there still being this black and no ending is terrifying!! :shock:

I'm agnostic. Until it's proved or disproved then I won't have faith.

Saying that, I'm christened and getting married in church this year. Oh well.

Surely you wouldn't have eternal darkness and stuff as you'd nolonger exist so there wouldn't be anything.

Bit like before you were born.

Are you an Atheist Ben? (Serious question)

Good point about "Nothing before you were born", but how much of an abstract concept is oblivion?

Wouldn't it be nice to BELEIVE that after life you went to a better place, i wish that I beleived that.

I probably lean towards atheism, but I'm not arrogant enough to say their definitely isn't anything.

religion is a method of control that has been used to great effect. don't get me started on the bible, what a pack of fictional twaddle and hipocrisy that is.

Which makes you agnostic.

Agreed, but does that mean that there is no god/afterlife? Are you an Atheist?

I can't prove there is no god or afterlife, but nor can anyone else prove there is. I do wonder why so many people's default setting is that there is a god rather than there isn't. you wouldn't believe that there are fairies or pixies, so why god?

There's a lot of fairies down Brighton way. You might see them if you go. Maybe then you'll start believing in God axs?

“A truly religious man does not embrace a religion; and he who embraces one has no religion.”
Kalil Gibran

getting a bit serious in here innit

Understand that ben but the thought of it terrifies me, to a certain extent.

ps I knew I wouldn't keep away from this thread.

I'll make sure I pass on your number as promised.

Religion, whether or not you have a faith is directly linked to Oblivion.

A) You Beleive = NO Oblivion
B) You don't beleive = Oblivion.

But what is oblivion,........ it is nothing right, absolutely nothing. but for it to be recognised as nothing then it must be something....  :?  :?  :?

Atheist for me.  I got married in a hotel and I won't get my daughter christened until she is old enough to make an informed decision of her own.  I don't discourage my duaghter from having her own opinion on the matter.

I'm still not christened to this day, i wouldn't mind getting married in a church - it's just a nice building to me, but I won't take any religious oaths or anything.

as far as I can tell the bible is a story about date rape and a bastard? someones having a laugh somewhere

Mary gets pregnant by God, yet she doesnt know or remember a thing....sounds like date rape to me!!!

Then Jesus is born and his parents Mary and God arent married, thus making him a bastard!

i like to think i have someone looking over me, but i haven't really thought about afterlife. I don't really believe in heaven and hell either really.

As a whole though, in the past 2000 years or so, religion has played a major part in fucking up this world of ours.

Word.

I may be wrong but I think that Prof. Steven Hawkins said that in the future religion would be illegal, or something like that.

I'm not thinking that he can see into the future, but he has a point in that it would stop wars and stuff.

I'm looking over you Dave. Sleep well.



 :D

religion had its uses in centuries past, helped to offer a deterrent to criminals that they would be punished whether caught or not, but it has no real place in a civilised society.

With religion comes power - something that the top religious bods will be keen to hang on to, they will never let it go themselves, it can only be diminished by a population that no longer needs it.

creepy.

I quite like the idea of being worshipped. Anybody want to sign up for the church of Benology? It's pretty light on rules.

aaahhhh

I never really believed anything until a couple of years ago when I became a Christian. Sounds really clichéd and all that but it genuinely changed my life and my whole view on the world

at times iv wished that i believed something in light of family tragedies and what not, it must make that sort of thing easier?

i still think its absolute bollocks though, the lot of it.

Religion is fiction. Always was always will be.

In all likelyhood, Religion was invented by man to give them hope of life after death. And also to be used by those in charge to control the population (10 commandments, etc).

Though it's not for me, the average religious person is generally well intentioned.

However nations, extremists and even the church have done a lot of bad in the name of religion. Wars, crusades, etc, etc.

Some 'religions' are hilarious (e.g. scientology). I also find the US evangelists hilarious, but that is a bit different as they are in effect robbing from the poor.

So the question is,  would the world be better off without religion. Or is man so fucked up that all the bad stuff done in the name of religion religion  simply be transferred to some other excuse to start a war, kill savages, etc?

I too am a christian, real glad someone else said they were as well.  Faith is a difficult thing to explain but previous experiences and feelings have made me convinced there is a god and there isn't a person alive who could make me think different.

FWIW all this sceptical stuff in hear saying religion is about power / war and ways of controlling people is utter rubbish.  Most religions are peaceful and just choose to live a certain way, they mean no harm to other races or people.  Its a stereotype to group them in the same bracket as extremists.

Sorry Townenda but that is just not true.....

Christians and Catholics - Power maniacs over the centuries who started war after war after war - all in the name of GOD - The crusades etc....

Muslims - Again being used by the power crazy radicals to try and change the world to their way of thinking - completely controlling.....

When you say most religious believers are peaceful you are probably correct - however they sit under the same "tree" as the extremists.  If they were that peaceful, then surely they would move away from the bracket they have been put into.

Religion is all about control - however you look at it and from whatever religion (with the possible exception of Buddism).  Your religious leaders control you and tell you what you are and are not allowed to do, and what you should and should not believe,  by quoting from the fairy story that is the bible and other religious books - however the same book contradicts itself at so many different points yet this is simply brushed aside by the religious leaders....

Please excuse my "ramblings" but I feel quite strongly about this - I am all for someone being able to "cling" onto something if it helps him/her through their life - nothing wrong with that at all - but lets not pretend it is anything more than a nice fairy tale - just like Pixies, Dragons, Giants and Elves are....

I'm not going to get too into this as I feel it is something people can argue on all day long but I will address your points above.

The Crusades were a long long time ago and you will note in recent times christians have not started many wars only people who claim to be religous and these are not for any religous gain they are more for greed whether it be oil, land or power.

Most muslims distance themselves from extremists and are also generally a peaceful religion happy to live amongst those who do not share there beliefs.

Christian leaders do not tell us what to do or how to act, there are commandments in place which people have to try to follow but there isn't a person alive who is perfect and can follow all these.

We in the western world have so much ourselves that we lost our way with religion alot because we have rarely had to want for anything, we have houses, food and jobs where as countries that have little clutch to the hope and faith that there is something that can help them.

On a personal level my life has been so much better since I became a christian and as originally said there is no one alive who could convince me otherwise.  I will not comment on this thread again as I said its one people could argue on constantly.

I am not religious so not offended by this, but that statement always makes me laugh.

Yes, religion has caused a lot of war and death. But seriously, what do you think this world would be like if the inhabitants of it had no belief, no faith, no inner peace?

A lot worse than it is now, is the most probable answer.

If everyone was buddhist then yeah, that would be the case. Would it be worse now? Not by a long way imo. For 1000's of years religion ha been used as a tool to brainwash people, and victimise others

No-one knows though, do they?

So saying that the world is a whole lot worse now because of religion, is a totally redundant argument.

I wonder if people argue about religion in the afterlife. At this rate I expect so

Fair enough townenda - you have your beliefs and fair play to you for that....

I have mine and it is just something that we will never agree on - there are just too many contradictions in the bible for me...and too many people who use religion as a "whipping stick" to try and brainwash the masses....

Of course no-one knows, and we might be alot worse off now than we are . A lot of the ills that have happened in history have had religous motives behind it though

Sorry if I offended you. I was referring mainly historically, but the fact remains there have been some nasty things done, and still being done in the name of religion, or as persecution against other faiths.

As I said, the everyday religious person is generally well intentioned and are far removed from these things.

Would these bad things be done anyway? No way of knowing.

If there was no religions all those wars would of happened because of some other reason . It annoys me that people blame religion for everything . Too many people use it as a excuse for criminal activity these days as it’s the easiest option .

Imo if someone can lead a better life and want to help others just because they have a little belief then fair play to them

Very few wars throughout history have just been about religion. It's been a factor, but rarely without other political/economic factors to go with it.

The whole thing saying it's all fairy tails is a bit silly too. I'm not religious at all, but lot's of the settings in the bible have a fair amount of historical background behind them. It's not really like dragons and faeries at all. Even the stuff which has been fairly twisted by the more religious dogmatic has hints of actual events through it.

Many of the moral/rules set out by religions, although out dated now, would have made a lot of sense a few thousand years ago. Not being gay and having lot's of wives would have made sense because it would have been important to have lot's of children. In more insular communities it'd have been important to have children to make sure there was a continuation for the tribe, and from a personal common sense point of view, it would have been important to make sure there would have been people to look after you when you get old.

The problem religions have now, is that the more our lives change from how they were a few thousand years ago, the less relevant some of their guides for living our. Which means you have to adapt which beliefs are still relevant to modern day life. If you're capable of that and keeping your faith then fair play.

Religions have done stuff influenced some sketchy happenings when they've had power, but I'd say that's more of a side affect of power than religion. The same can be said for most ruling classes throughout history.

So errr.. yeah. I don't believe in a god; or that Jesus was the son of god (he might have been a pretty wise dude who was good at rationing out fish); Muhammed was probably an awesomely wise bloke but I don't believe he was an actual prophet; Moses was probably fucked off his head on something to have burning bushes talk to him; etc. I don't find any beliefs in these things, but the religious texts themselves are pretty fascinating. And if you can find belief, then there are probably worse ways to live your life.

:shock:

Good post Ben.

I'm an atheist and i dislike religion. I hate the relationship between religions and the hatred they hold for each other.

I don't dislike people who are religious, but i do find it annoying that many attribute people's good to the ways of the bible. The bible doesn't make people good, it just tells people things they thought and felt anyway and then allows followers to feel vindicated.

Religion doesn't make you good, common sense and nurture does. There are 22,000 different "re-prints" of the bible, and it's been constantly changed to fit with a time and society. Why? Because earlier versions of the bible included numerous atrocities in "the name of the lord", such as moses and his soldiers slaying thousands of people for not embracing god. Then for his soldiers to "have fun" with the women and children left over.

Religion has often been used as an excuse to cause harm and an excuse to lock away your common sense and rational thought.

For example, take Jewish priests in New York (the only place where this is still legal). Traditional circumcisions performed by the priest, involves the priest taking the child's penis into his mouth and sucking the foreskin off, post cutting... WTF???!!!! It's religion, therefore it's ok.

In some parts of Africa women have the clitorises cut off at a young age and have their labia removed and vagina's sewn shut. Many women die of this due to the obvious hygiene problems that are caused. The women then "have to" have the man force his way through the stitches to take the womens virginity. It's absurd! If they fail to do this, do they go to Hell? Do we all go to hell in the eyes of their religion because we don't do this? Come on... It's fucking disgusting people have these things forced on them.

Anyone ever read up on how Mormonism came about? That, hands down, has to be the most amusing of any origin of religion. Watch the Southpark episode on it, it's ace and factually correct.

The Koran and the prophet are equally absurd.

I'll quit while i'm behind and i've not offended everyone. :D

Watch Zeitgeist (The Movie), that has a pretty good summation of religion and it's more factual origins.

I'm an atheist - I don't believe in the after life and all that. Once you're dead, you're dead. I do actually lead a fairly Christian lifestyle as do my family. My kids can make their own choices on religion when they are older.

As for those who are religious ( of whatever persuasion ) then good luck to them. I respect them and their beliefs - even if I don't agree. If it gives them comfort and security then fantastic.

But also be tolerant and respectful of my decision to be atheist.

I think polytheism is great - you can get your own personal God. Personally I haven't got any Gods and find the whole thing rather perplexing.
Organised religion is boring to me and I don't like being told what to do and how to live my life- so they can all fuck off.

Plenty of good points being raised although you wouldn't believe how tired I am of hearing the old "the Bible has too many contradictions" line without anybody ever convincing me of a single one. And I'm pretty sure I've spent more time reading it than most on here.

Also, to say that religion is bad because people use it for bad purposes is a contradiction in itself. Religion is used by people like those who disagree with it on this thread - people who have never truly been dedicated to it and take only the bits that suit them and ignore the rest. That's not a judgement on people on here - merely an explanation of why religion has caused problems.

i'm a total non believer.
i dont believe in the after life either.
religions generally are all in hope of what happens when we die.its all about fear of death.
i'm buggered either way cause even if there is a god i'll burn in hell as a non believer anyway.

He will forgive you my brother...

I'm trying to think now of any bits of religion that I pick and choose but I can't come up with any.

i'd ask any christian to explain these.
 the dinosaurs,proof of evolution which is growing by the day,though shall not kill(but they eat meat),why a non believer will burn in hell,where is hell,the laughable old testment,why is easter on a different day every year,how can a human get pregnant wothout a males sperm,how can anything create the world in 7 days,etc,etc,etc.thats off the top of my head and i could go on for hours.

Reeves - what about this one ?

Was baby Jesus’ life threatened in Jerusalem?
 
 (a)   Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 23)
 
 (b)   No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40)
 
Seems like a simple contradiction to me.......

Jesus was presented after Mary and Joseph's time of purification had ended. Not sure how long this is exactly, but a matter of weeks I think. They fled to Egypt around 2 years after Jesus was born, hence Herod ordering the slaughter of all boys under the age of 2

What about Adam and Eve?

Evolution has been scientifically proved as Fact, and yet Christians beleive that Adam and Eve where the first 2 humans, just sort of "Put there" by god.

Also if, for the sake of argument, then the Adam and Eve story is true, the just how did we not all and up seriously deformed through in-breeding?

What I mean to ask is, do Christians dis-beleive evolution?

It is a difficult subject. I certainly think many devout christains certainly have a superiority complex. My wife was once told while travelling in a car full of christians that if the car crashed "she would go to hell as the only non christian in the car". That sort of statement doesn't exacly endear the bible bashers to me.

Fair enough if people need something to believe in. But I don't like it when I or others are judged for making a decision of non belief. I am still a "good person", I still treat others with respect, as I expect to be treated by others, and when I die I will donate my organs worth having and then be buried, end of story.

I think for some people believing in god and heaven comforts them when they think of dying, they can't accept the situation I mentioned above and think they will be lonely when they die and their soul will be lost. I can't criticise that viewpoint, horses for courses and all that, but it aint for me.

But according to the book of Matthew they did flee there, but the book of Luke said they did not ....

How can this be interpreted as anything else other than a contradiction.....?

Can an atheist try to answer these?  If so, I will.

Evolution and dinosaurs - Adam and Eve is a metaphor.  Had someone 3000 years ago tried to explain the origins of the universe talking about atoms, elements and so on he'd have been laughed out of town.  So Adam and Eve was made up to show how God was responsible for the start of life.  Steven Hawking believes in the Big Bang (bloody stupid name by the way...tiniest thing ever and no sound!), but believes it was engineered (by God, or whomever I don't know what SH thinks about it).

Thou shalt not kill - probably should just apply to humans.  If God created man, he gave us incisors - therefore we should eat meat. (watch the veggies go for that one  :wink: )

Non-believer in hell - I guess if you are good egg, God will forgive you, so you avoid hell.

Old Testament - Great read, I'm sure somewhere I read/watched something explaining all the plagues on Eqypt through science.

Easter - covered elsewhere on the TEF.

Immaculate Conception - Erm, sorry, you just need faith to believe, can't help you.

Seven Days - Actually six, as he took the last day off.  Metaphor.

Hope that helps.  Any more religious questions the atheist can try to answer? :)

I'm with arriba on this one. We all used to be monkeys, I've see the diagrams.  :D

I can't Adam and Eve what I'm reading here.

Agree, but I don't see that evolution and creationism are mutually exclusive...like I said it's easy enough to believe a higher being created the universe and let us all evolve.

And to be a pedant we didn't evolve form monkeys, we can't have done as they are still around.  However, I believe the idea is that humans and monkeys evolved on different lines from a common ancestor.

Surely you mean donkeys?

 :D

Humans evolved from Ape's, not Monkeys, and in fact we are Ape's ourselves. (Pedantry :oops:)

And why could not Monkeys and other Ape's (Gorillas ect.) still exist? Look at how many different types of birds there are after-all. We just evolved into a different type of Ape that's all.

Anyway, The Noah story has some gaping wholes in it. All mankind was eradicated except for the Noah Family. And so again why are we not all deformed through in-breeding?? Not just us either but all of the Animals (2x2). Any species must mix the gene pool to re-produce successfully and so 2 Elephants, for example,  on the Ark cannot be responsible for the worlds current Elephant population.

It may be a Metaphoric yet it is still preached as fact! :oops:

I thought it was several pairs of the same animal or something like that. I'm sure they talked about it on QI once.

I'm not good on primates  :oops:   I was suggesting, however, that humans share a common ancestor with other primates.  Indeed, surely the theory of evolution means we are all related to that first life form that crawled out of the sea.

As for Noah, a metaphor for something I would think.  Have to ask the religious types what though.  Didn't QI prove that there were seven of a lot of the animals, in any case? (do you get QI in Thailand?)

Not actually having read the Bible I could well be wrong about the number of animals. I was going by the song we used to sing at school, more fool me for not checking before posting.

What is this QI thing?

I'm not criticising people who have a belief in something, I just don't buy into a story with so many flaws in it's laughable.

I blame my parents for sending me to a catholic primary school.

Apes, monkeys, ducks or whatever, I've seen the diagrams.  :wink:

Hail Mary...

Quite Interesting - A quiz show hosted by Stephen Fry, that debunks stuff we thought we knew.  I am now aware that almost everything I ever knew isn't true.  It's funny, so I like it.

http://www.qi.com/

Anyway:

And a question for the Christian Beleivers out there.

Do you beleive in evolution? When Darwin first published the "Theory of evoluton" it was blasted by the church as blasphemous (Sp?). Which indicates that at the time Adam and Eve was considered a fact as opposed to a metaphor.

And if you beleive in the garden of Eden as fact, then surely you cannot beleive in Evolution right?

Or is it possible that the church has (Had to) accept science, and therefore the Eden story is no longer fact but a "metaphor"

I'm not looking to insult anybody, just interested like.

As someone who was brought up in a strict religious background for 17 years  - I've spent tonight researching the religious allegories contained in the Matrix Trilogy and feel closer to the "truth" than ever I did during my early years.  I am sorry to say I subscribe to the view that religion is a method of controlling people and their hopes and dreams. I looked at people who were religious and would expect them to be better human beings than those who weren't - Wrong, other people were just as humane and caring.  Religion is the same as joining a golf club - the need to be accepted, the need to belong.  PS it was a "religious summer camp that I first got my hand down a girlie's knicks - so it can't be all bad

The book of Luke doesn't say they didn't flee. It just doesn't say they did. If you read two books about WWII then something will be mentioned in one and not in the other - doesn't mean it's all made up.

I don't want to take this thread down the whole "let's try and prove eachother wrong" direction as after 2000 years it's been impossible to decide one way or the other. We're not going to settle it here, and its not what the thread was intended for.

As for the point about non-Christians going to hell...if you call that judgemental you've missed the whole point of what Christianity is all about. As a Christian, you basically accept that you are far from perfect. It is failure to accept your wrongdoing that leads to hell, rather than not being good enough.

One thing that's bugs me about just about any religion is the inability and/or unwillingness to answer simple questions.

I think that I have asked 3 times now about Adam and Eve v's Evolution, and the closest anybody has come to answering it is an Atheist.

So again: Where do Christians stand in regards to the fact that Darwin's Yheory of Evolution has all but proven that The Garden of Eden story is a genetic impossibility?

Sorry, I've skipped over this thread so missed a lot. Basically many Christians believe different things as it all comes down to how you interpret what is written in Genesis. I'm not a biologist so I have no idea just how credible the theory of evolution is, but many questions are asked of it, so it does seem to have its flaws and this is why I can believe in Adam and Eve.

But how is The Theory of Evolution flawed when it has been proven to be true dating back for Millions of years?

I think Reeves has answered alot of questions in a reasoned and dignified way, I have purposely tried to stay away from this thread as I knew it would turn out like this.

Bangkok there is also factual stuff to back up Christianity if you went on an Alpha course you could get additional information regarding this.

We are in no means against non believers and don't think there any less than us.  I understand you do not believe and respect your decision not to but you have to understand faith is exactly that it is a belief not always based on fact.

I couldn't explain to you every reason on why I choose to be a christian but I just know there is a God, past experiences and circumstances have only strengthened my belief.

Very good post .

The point is that it hasn't been proven. There are huge gaps in fossil records. There is no evidence of an increase in genetic information (amoebas evolving into animals and unltimately humans would require a huge increase in information). Ape-to-human transformation maps are based on assumptions which may well be incorrect. Some 'ape-men' have been proven to simply be apes that were reconstructed wrong, others were actually genetically identical to humans. Biogenesis teaches that life comes from life, whilst most evolutionists believe that the first life came from a spontaneous reaction of non-living particles.

I'm really no expert on evolution and this is just a random collection of arguments I have found. The point I am trying to make is that so called 'disproofs' of religion are often full of flaws. People don't take time to read the counter arguments and this just leads to misunderstanding. I'm sure there are people on here who read Dawkins' book, but I bet there aren't three forum members who read Alistair McGrath's response to it.

I may come across as anti-religion but that is not my intention at all. Rather I have a genuine interest and therefore have questions. And I genuinely apologise should I have offended anybody.

To me at least it seem as though there is a real stumbling block with evolution, which I find a shame.

I'm not offended don't worry. I remember you stating earlier in the thread that you were respective of others' beliefs. I personally think that evolution, as stated above, has flaws and until the remaining questions are answered I see it as a less-than-adequate argument.

Oh and as stfctownenda said, the Alpha course is a great way to actually ask these questions to people better equipped to answer them than I am.

Similarly there is the Christianity Explored course, which was written by a guy from my church in London. He's a top bloke and dedicates himself to that sort of thing.

Not sure if you'll find eithe rof them in Bangkok though

I believe in God but it bears no impact on the way I live my life sadly, and I'm not one to turn to religion when I feel low.

I reckon I'll live my life how I see fit then just repent on my deathbed.  8)

I'd be interested to read any serious religious attempts at arguing against evolution. Most things I've seen tend to be complete nonsense which just play on the fact that lot's of people find it difficult to get their heads around evolution anyway (stuff like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zwbhAXe5yk).

The problem is that the way each side aproaches a debate like this are somewhat incompatible. Religion by definition requires faith and belief in something being true, whilst the whole scientific method is set around trying to prove your hypothesis is incorrect. Which sort of makes the whole thing pointless.

The whole teaching creationism is science lessons thing does piss me off a bit. However much you dress it up, creationism isn't science. It's a belief, and so it's set up in a way to be untestable if you believe it. Which comes back to my previous point about the two not really being compatible.

there is concrete evidence of evolution,this is growing by the day.religion is a faith-belief that cannot, and will never be proven.
i'm sure there was a jewish rebel(jesus),who had support against the roman empire.but alot more has been made of it than i think happend.some of the stories from the bible are so ott they are laugable.
christians change the way they explain things as time goes by,as more evidence is found that blows the bible out of the water. they keep changing views to justify their deluded beliefs.the different churces dont all even see the bible in the same way as each other.bankock raises good questions but they will never be answered.they will just have the edges danced around a bit as is always the case.
its not about trying to offend or have a pop.its just having a whole lot of questions that never get answered.it is for those reasons that i will never believe in a god.i have to take things from what i'm told and know. and all that points to the bible as a mythical fairytale.


because of the many flaws in the bible,i feel teaching god and the bible as a fact to kids from the age of 4 in primary schools is a disgrace!
let them make up their own minds i say

Videos like the Banana one from Ben's post do nothing to support religion, and I suspect that others (Including beleivers) on here would agree.

If anything it simply strenghtens the Evolution theory as the Banana could simply have evolved to be a convenient food for us and other apes/monkeys. To aid in the dispersal of its seeds.

I am sure that there must be better arguments than that one.

An hour or so on the web tells me that our own evolution from other Apes is proven as FACT, it's NAILED. There are some questions further down the line which only come about through missing links. The only thing that is really being questioned is the mechanism I.E. Evolution (FACT), through natural selection (Theory)

The only groups which dimiss evolution are religion, those looking for an alternative (Which is what science is all about), and the Philosophical types who claim that absolutely nothing at all (Including life itself) can be 100% proven as hard fact.

To suggest its a disgrace is very short sighted christianity has always been this countrys national religion and the bible has some great stories which most kids love and it can also teach them valuable lessons.  I am sure they will be more than capable of making a choice themselves as they get older on whether they choose to believe or not.

As I said earlier christianity also has factual evidence to back it up and courses such as the Alpha course will give you additional information on this.  This is scientific evidence which further strengthens the case in religions favour.

I wont argue that christians have changed with time as have people as life was very different back then compared to how it is now.

I dont consider my beliefs to be deluded nor do I see all this evidence blowing the bible out the water.  I do not disagree too much either that various denominations disagree on things but I don't see how that should cloud your own judgement or beliefs.

I appreciate your opinion but as I said although its not easy for me to explain my faith I am 100% sure in my belief that there is a God and an after life.

i have no objection to the bible and its stories being taught to children in schools at all.and i agree about its good morals etc.
but i dont like it being taught as fact in primary schools as it currently is.
other religions are not taught as fact in british mainstream schools. why should christianity?

For me, if the (Any) Church was to concede somewhat and say, for example:

"Yes evolution is Fact, although God created all life on Earth and with it created Evolution"

Then there is a road to concilliation (Sp?) there. But to dismiss Evolution all together loses credibility.

After all, the Bible is over 2,000 years old and so it is to be expected that their have been mis-interpretations/chinede-whispers and even exaggerations along the way.

Disgrace is probably a bit strong. But I strongly believe that religious beliefs are something that should be imparted at home not through the state. Making kids in primary schools sing hyms and say prayers in assembly might not seem like a big deal, but in a multicultural society you're effectively indoctrinating children with beliefs which aren't held by a vast percentage of the population.

Religion should be completely separated from the state. Especially in education. The idea that the education a child receives should reflect the religious beliefs of the parents to the extent that you have whole different schools set up for Catholics/Anglicans/Jews/Muslims just seems mental to me. The idea of the knowledge that's imparted is altered by religious ideals implies religious censorship. Every child should have the right to a full education, whatever the beliefs of their parents.

On the other hand I think that education about religion should be greatly improved, and put more into context of history and politics. My secondary school wasn't at all religious (Commonweal), but my R.E. lesson's still seemed to have a hangover of morality about them, and learning facts like the 5 pillars of Islam, the Sikh's last guru is a book, etc. Is pretty meaningless out of any context.

I've just been reading up on that Alpha Course. It looks sketchy to me. The whole "exploration" thing is an interesting word to use when it's clearly a conversion tool. Other things like "beginning with a meal and refreshment", seem set up so you owe them something from the start. It also seems to target people who aren't happy with life, in fact the advert on the front page of their website seems to be suggesting to you that you're not happy with life.

The whole thing seems very similar to techniques that cults and conmen use.

I'm semi-curious to go along, although I don't think it would be very constructive.

Good shout Ben.

I think that if the state was to educate the kids properly then many of the current problems may not exist, (This also stands for ALL countries). I went to Churchfields and R.E. was a G.C.S.E. option and I didn't take it because I thought that it was for religious types only. If it was however portrayed more as simply part of our world heritage then it could become a more interesting option.

I refuse to send my Daughter to any of the many Christian/Catholic international schools out here for obvious reasons. Instead we send her to a Private Thai school.

It is not Buddhist by design, although perhaps Buddhist by default but that is fine because Buddhism is not rammed down their throats every day. Buddhism revolves more around moral values than anything else really.

I have met and spoken with many a Buddhist monk whilst here, and I have found that not only do they tolerate other religions but they also embrace, even encourage them, they also embrace science in that a higher power created the world/universe, and science is a part of that creation.

They also understand or accept that a Bhuddist could also have beleif in another faith, the ideaolgy behind it is basically that there is a higher power, and just because to other faiths their god may be a different kind of god, whose to say that it is not the same god? Or that another god cannot exist along-side their own god*, basically they are open to all possibilities regarding religion and science whilst still beleiving in Bhuddha.


*Buddha is not so much considred a god, more of a man and as such their is no "Bible" to speak of, although they generally abide by Buddha's teachings which again, are simply moral values.

I have never ever been told by a Bhuddist "Don't do that, because it is Un-Bhuddist", rather they would say "Don't do that, because it is just wrong"

Of course it is possible to piss of a Bhuddist with regards to their Faith, but  it would take deliberate intent to do so.

I don't beleive in Bhuddism as a religion as I do not beleive in the afterlife/re-incarnation, but I certainly beleive in Bhuddism as a way of life above and beyond any other religion that I have encountered.

I think the common ground with most religions are that they are intended to guide those that follow it to a better life before the afterlife, whatever/wherever that may be (and to a better afterlife?).

I think the stories in religious texts, the more fanciful ones that is, may be complete myth. But by believing or gaining something from those stories the people who follow the religion are able to get guidance in order to make them a better person for it.

I don't feel inclined to follow a religion, I believe there are better ways for myself to seek guidance if I felt I wanted (to do) it. That's why I don't believe in a God, Gods or a spiritual Nirvana or Heaven - I just don't think that's the best way for me to go about my business. Besides, even though evolution is a tidy theory it's not the reason I don't conform to a religion, even though I do believe in evolution. If someone managed to disprove evolution I still wouldn't believe in a higher being and I suspect the majority of atheists still would not. Basically I am trying to say that evolution probably isn't the reason most people are atheist, so I think it's a false argument to analyse the Genesis and compare it to evolution to try and prove their atheism.

Just because religion isn't for me I don't think it's fair to go out of my way to pick holes in it to prove a point. That's getting halfway to the annoying levels of a Jehovah's Witness ringing your doorbell on a Saturday morning when you're tired and hungover.

Sorry if I am dragging this thread out a bit, but the subject really does interest me.

And lets take the flak away from the Christians a bit as my intital religion thread seems to have turned into an anti-Christianity thread. If only because the Christians have at least tried to answer the questions asked about their faith.

So lets talk about scientology!.  Does it even deserve recognition as a religion? OK Tom Cruise, Will Smith and others may have found contentment in their new faith but Christianity/Catholisism/Muslim ect. have some substance behind them.

Personally I think that it should be banned for being the scam that it blatantly is, in many countries it is not recognised as a religion and in some I think that it is banned. But regardless of how crap it is, does anybody have a right to deny them of their "Faith", despite the fact the scientology is basically a criminal organisation.

One could also include the "Church of the latter day saints" (Mormons), the "Evangalistic Church" and without doubt other as well.

Alot of sceptics / synics have found this course extremely interesting and actually found it not to be the "brainwash" they expected.  There is no pressure on individuals at any point and is meant more as a spiritual journey, it does convert people no doubt but also some people find its not for them again it's dependent on individuals.

Exploration means simply that exploring different aspects of life, bible and experiences there is no pressure in cult like fashion.  I think the meal and refreshment is just a nice way to get to know people at the start its certainly nothing glamorous and you don't feel like you owe people anything.

People who are unhappy in life often need an outreach and the church can provide good support to people like this.  People who are happy in life tend to be that happy and don't feel the need to change anything or start anything new as they have all they need so its natural to target people more unhappy.  

When people have little they hold out more hope thats why you see numbers of christians rising in African countires and such because they don't have much they clutch to faith to improve there situations / fortunes / lifes.  In the western world we have so much we don't have to worry as much so thats why numbers have fallen, personally I don't think there is a right or wrong here everyone has an opinion and chooses what they want to believe, I respect that.

 Just not true....Christianity has been a major religoion for perhaps the last 1400 years in this country.  If you consider somewhere like Avebury to be well over 5000 years old, then for most of history we've been something other than a Christian country.

  Further, although the link between church and state is implied in the constitution.....it is now anomalous to consider the UK a Christian country. A situation which will doubtless change....see Archbishop of Canterbury's thoughts on Sharia Law.

paganism and druidry have been around a lot longer.

You raise a fair point there Reg, we're not really a Christian country. And to say we've always been one is ridiculous - there was no such thing as Christianity until 2000 years ago.

Scientology baffles me completely. I don't know much about what they believe or do but the fact it is newly created, requires wealth etc makes it all seem a bit of a farce to me. I can't say much else wrong with it as that is the extent of my knowledge!

Watch the South Park episode on Scientology, and the one on the Mormon faith (As Ben has mentioned previously in this thread).

South Park may be a Satirical cartoon but both episodes are factual, and after watching it R4e you will find those faith's both comical and possibly insulting towards a "legitimate" faith such as your own.

I am sure that FB would be able to tell you which eipsodes they are. You should watch them, really you should watch them.

You should also know that either episode does not blaspheme (Sp?) Christianity whatsoever.

I particularly like the end of the Scientology episode when Kenny? (The producers) blatantly challenges the scientologists to sue him (Them).

Many moons ago I had a bird who became a  Scientologist....she turned to it after the messy break up of our relationship.  It struck me as she was being exploited for her emotional vulnerability....but I wasn't about to enquire too closely.

A form of exploitation which should be illegal if it is not alraeady.



That's our Reg.  :wink:

Might do that - haven't seen any South Park for aaaaaaages

Ime currently reading the bible...its been a tuf year in our family with family members passing away,my sister in law is very religious and gave me it as a gift....its very hard to take some parts seriously but ive always loved the peace and tranquility thats found in churches,its hardnot to believe in god when your actually in a church praying for a loved one.....The problem with all religions is that you have a few trying to ram there views dwn the throats of millions of people......religion for me is very personal and you wont find me getting angry just because people dont believe what i believe.As for Scientology BANGKOK i agree with you its a scam but like ive just said we all should be able to think what we like without predjudice.

Scientology is odd indeed. It doesn't really offer any moral guidance and seems to hunt vunerable people to take advantage of. Normally resulting in them cutting themselves off from their previous life. That and the way they are aggressive to those who question them, make them a pretty scary cult. Luckily they still aren't recognised as a religion here but I think they've been pressuring for it.

Mormons, although a bit odd, aren't really anything bad. Just a bit strange. In fact the South Park episode sort of backs them up at the end.

You can get the Scientology southpark episode here.. http://www.xenu.net/ if you scroll down the bottom. There's also that site with all the southpark episodes on. Can't remember where, but if you google you should be able to find it.

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www.southparkzone.com

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Mormon episode is S7e12 I think. Should be easy enough to find on there.

While on religion i read that Rory Fallon has become a born again Christian...ime being serious!,,,sorry if thats already been said on here.

While on religion i read that Rory Fallon has become a born again Christian...ime being serious!,,,sorry if thats already been said on here.

Keychain locked. Please contact an administrator.

Fucking monkeys.

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Leefer, your post made me think a long way back in time.  Best wishes mate

since when do you like South park?

Yep. He got baptised at my mate's church in Plymouth a couple of months ago

Nail, Hammer and Head!!

Does that make me God's Atheist?  Cool...

But this country is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (so named in 1927)...therefore Protestantism has always been the religion.  Take your point, just wanted to be awkward  :wink:

Fair play to everyone on here that has faith - I fully appreciate anyone who does have this can be described as a lucky person.  I myself have no faith in something as far fatched as a "god" - as you say this is a matter of belief and a very individual one at that....

The one thing I will argue until the cows come home is that 4 year old kids should simply not be tought religion - in any format.

There is no difference to teaching them Christianity or Muslim beliefs apart from the particular country they were born in.

Given that these two sets of people can not exactly get on very well (yes I know this is the radicals) it seems serverse to try and feed any of this stuff to kids.

Wait until they are old enough (14 maybe) to make their own mind up whether they want to listen to it and have it as a school option - but to have it on the curriculum as a nationally tought subject is quite frankly terrible - my opinion of course.....

I've been taught christianity since i was 4, and im not religious. Its more about how the home environment is than at school. And like someone said before in the thread, most of the early bible stories are good for telling to youngsters, to give them a view on morals and simply treating each other well

Fuck me is this thread still going? This is getting a bit to serious for the TEF.

I failed Religious Education, is that a good or bad thing?

You'll find out when you go to either heaven or hell I reckon.

I honestly tried. But half an hour before my RE GCSE I went over on my ankle and tore all the ligaments.

The excrutiating pain kind of put me off explaning the 5 pillars of Islam.

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: I've just watched the south park mormon episode

"dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb"

Has anyone else seen the film Orgazmo? It's about a Mormon who become a porn actor/super hero. It's very funny.

It's another Trey Parker film, I think he has a bit of a fascination with Mormons.

Orgazmo is pretty ace. And very southparkish for obvious reasons.

Has anybody seen the most recent episode about Britany Spears? It's brilliantly mental.